The Holy Shrine Askariyah in Samarra is Destroyed. Before and After Photo

[leftchick]

Thank you to OKNancy for this photo...Before...



After.... :cry:







Iraqis inspect the bombed holy shrine of al-Hadi in the Iraqi northern city of Samarra. The golden dome of a celebrated Iraqi Shiite shrine was destroyed in a bomb attack, prompting warnings of sectarian conflict as thousands of enraged Shiites took to the streets(AFP/Dia Hamid)



Iraqi Shi'ites chant slogans during a protest in the city of Najaf, 160 km (100 miles) south of Baghdad February 22, 2006. About 2,000 Shi'ite protesters in the southern Iraqi city of Najaf called for revenge after a bombing shattered a sacred Shi'ite shrine, a Reuters witness said. REUTERS/Ali Abu Shish

<snip>

Tradition says the Askariya shrine, which draws Shiite pilgrims from throughout the Islamic world, is near the place where the last of the 12 Shiite imams, Mohammed al-Mahdi, disappeared. Al-Mahdi, known as the "hidden imam," was the son and grandson of the two imams buried in the Askariya shrine.

Shiites believe he is still alive and will return to restore justice to humanity. An attack at such an important religious shrine would constitute a grave assault on Shiite Islam at a time of rising sectarian tensions in Iraq. The shrine contains the tombs of the 10th and 11th imams, Ali al-Hadi who died in 868 A.D. and his son Hassan al-Askari who died in 874 A.D and was the father of the hidden imam.

The golden dome was completed in 1905.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

And from Juan Cole...

<snip>

Then real disaster struck. The guerriillas blew up the domed Askariyah shrine in Samarra. The shrine, sacred to Shiiites, honors 3 Imams or holy descendants of the Prophet. They are Ali al-Hadi, Hasan al-Askari, and his disappeared son Muhammad al-Mahdi. Thousands of Shiiites demonnstrated in Samarra and in East Baghdad, against this desecration.

The Twelfh Imam or Mahdi is believed by Shiites to have disappeared into a supernatural realm (just as Christians believe in the ascension of Christ) from which he will someday return.

Some Shiites think his second coming is imminent. Muqtada all-Sadr and his followers are among them. They are livid about this attack on the shrine of the Mahdi's father.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is also a firm believer in the imminent coming of the Mahdi. I worry that Iranian anger will boil over as a result of this bombing of a Shiite millenarian symbol.

Both Sunnis and Americans will be blamed. Very bad

http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/shiite-protests-roil-iraq-tuesday-was.html

This is so horrible in so many ways. :(

[shoelace414]

1. I wonder how Catholics would feel if they bombed the sistine chapel

[leftchick]

4. I am Catholic

and I would feel the same horror I am feeling now. It is no different than how I felt when the Buddahs were destroyed. It is all so tragic.

[IronLionZion]

74. yeah that was fucked up

Countries offered to buy the Buddhas of Bamiyan but the Taliban blew them up because they are "idols". bastards. Bastards come in all colors and religions. Lots of Vatican artwork and statues were destroyed or defaced by conservatives for being "indecent" because they depicted nudes.

[Auntie Bush]

92. I even felt badly when Saddam's palaces were destroyed. They

were valuable historic works of art and his people and the world could have really seen how he spent the people's money. What a great money maker they could have been as a tourist attraction if and when they EVER have peace.

[ChazII]

2. Grrr

to the criminals that did this horrific act. Positive thoughts are being sent to those who are grieving at the loss of their place of worship.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. I always tell my young students

that art is the opposite of war. Art creates and war destroys. And sometimes war destroys art. I'm printing these pictures out today and keeping them for that lesson.

[leftchick]

6. war destroys everything

except for profits. :(

[ChazII]

8. Just curious

while I agree with you, how do explain a crucifix in a jar of urine or the Madonna several years ago that was covered in cow dung? I also teach, and I know this is what some my 3rd graders would ask me. I apologize if this sounds like I am challenging you, I just need input. I would like to try the same thing with my students.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. I tell them the truth as I see it

that in this culture, "art" has been confused with "shock."

I also explain that it all has to do with the camera being invented and the need for realism evaporated.

The last rung of Bloom's taxonomy is evaluation, and I encourage them to use it well. A simple reading of "The Emperor's New Clothes" is very helpful here, as well. And also checking out some of the latest runway fashion trends, with things like gargage cans on girls' heads, and men drapped in green garden hoses. We discuss the concept of pushing the envelope and how the extremes set the framework.

When I lived up north I took high school art classes to MOMA all the time and we had some interesting discussions in the busses on the way home. High school kids haven't learned to be tres' chic yet. Four more years in college, and they will be afraid to say the dung covered madonna is... crap.

[ChazII]

53. TalahasseeGrannie,

what a great idea. I will try your idea. At least with third graders they would call it as they see it. No PC when one is still 8. We would even be making a list of synonyms for crap. :D

[Mika]

11. Just what was destroyed?

Piss Christ didn't destroy any shrine.

Madonna wasn't covered in dung either.. dung was a media (common in Africa) used for part of the painting.


No comparison to completely destroying one of the most sacred places of worship. None.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. I believe you misunderstood

she was going off topic a bit and asking how I explained shock art to my children, given that I elevated art in my lessons as being the opposite of war.

I don't believe she meant to compare that to the shrine at all. And I certainly did not.

I stand by my post: art is the opposite of war. Art creates; war destroys. And sometimes war destroys art, as in this case. Because that shrine contained some of the finest, most famous mosaics in the world.

[Atlas Mugged]

41. The Madonna was NOT covered in cow dung

Here's an article from Salon. Please read the rest of it.

Had Giuliani actually paid a visit to the exhibit's Thursday night preview, he would have seen, in Ofili's "Virgin Mary" painting, a large, exuberantly decorative black Madonna, made sparkling by the addition of map pins, on a fluorescent yellow-orange ground. Its colors, shiny pins, and Mary's benign expression all combine to give the painting a celebratory air. True, cut-out rear views of buttocks with pussies peeping underneath surround the image of Mary -- these are meant to refer to the naked little putti of traditional religious art. Are painted versions of naked cherubic boys less offensive than photographs of parts of mature nude women? Is there only one way to paint a Madonna? And come to think of it, when are we going to see Giuliani's painting of the Virgin, since he said he could do it as well as Ofili?

Oh yes, I forgot the dung. By now we all should know that in Africa, where the dung idea came from, elephant droppings carry none of the horrible connotations that shit carries in New York. Before offending us all with his own bullshit, Giuliani might have troubled himself to learn about the sacred nature of pachyderms and their dung in other parts of the world. Once again, had Giuliani gone to see "Sensation," he would have come across another engaging Ofili canvas called "Afrodizzia." With its multi-hued, rhythmic swirls of paint and shiny pins, "Afrodizzia" features lots of little pictures of black men wearing afros. The painting also contains a number of elephant-dung clumps on which the names of black heroes like Miles Davis, Cassius Clay and Shaft are inscribed. Standing in front of this remarkably affecting, energetic painting, I found it hard to imagine that Ofili is really bashing blacks. According to the mayor's dung-obsessed

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/1999/10/02/dung/

As for 'Piss Christ', it did exactly what the artist intended - it pissed people off and gave him dung loads of publicity.

[Cults4Bush]

42. Thanks for posting the truth about the Madonna and dung media

It pisses me off no end, that people still use this as some example of the worst kind of art... as has already been shown in this subthread. Ignorance for the sake of arrogance does not an opinion make.

[Atlas Mugged]

45. My pleasure!

I was furious when educated, intelligent friends of mine jumped on the "smeared with cowshit" bandwagon and was on a one person crusade to demonstrate to them how well the newspapers, talking heads and political assholes can manipulate and distort the simplest of things for publicity oriented moral posturing. In fact, "furious" barely does justice to the rage I feel when people accept propaganda at face value.

Needless to say, I've been apoplectic since the year 2000...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. Apoplectic since 2000?

Rough on the old blood pressure, huh?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. Oh please

do not call me or the responder to my post ignorant or arrogant! Go back and read more carefully. We were discussing, as teachers, how to teach about art that shocks and pushes the envelope to young children.

I have a graduate degree in art history, and appreciate all art...even art made of dung. But children as less nuanced, shall we say, and call it as they see it. However, one nice thing about art, is that we are all free to love or hate anything we encounter and should not have to defend ourselves from those with the bad manners to declare us either ignorant OR arrogant.

A world where we must all like the same art is just a bit too much group think for me.

[Cults4Bush]

81. Im an artist who has actually made a decent living off my work.

That I am sure means as much to you as your art degree means to me.

While I agreed with your points of art being the near opposite of war. Your post about the dung media came off as ignorant, that is why some explanations were in order. I obviously was not the only one to see this.

The dung Madonna was not shock art it was never intended as such in its creation. Therefore if someone reacts with shock to the fact that the media is "yucky" according to their Western cultured mind it is the inviduals correlative experience that has generated the shock not the piece itself (this was the ignorant part for me).

I agree with almost everything you say as a matter of fact, but you lumped the Madonna in as shock art at the end of that post, with no caveat as to why your students in the future should think of it as "crap" only that they would be afraid to (that was the arrogant part for me).

Now I'll accept responsibility for misinterpreting (thogh I still don't think I did) your post(s) on this thread, but I did read through them carefully.

Finally don't try to frame me up as a group thinker with this kind of tripe
"we are all free to love or hate anything we encounter and should not have to defend ourselves from those with the bad manners to declare us either ignorant OR arrogant.
A world where we must all like the same art is just a bit too much group think for me."

Nowhere did I say or even imply that you or anyone else is suppose to like the same art nor would I ever. I did not say anything remotely like that. You assumed something about me that was the total opposite of me as a person. My gripe with you was as illustrated above with a particular post. In that post in my perception you came off as ignorant and arrogant. I don't think your entire person is like that just that post and I explained it succinctly enough up above.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

83. You wrote...

"That I am sure means as much to you as your art degree means to me. "

Well, actually I think your success means more to me because I have spent a lifetime preparing young artists to make a living. And at times I have successfully earned a living doing commercial work, portraits, and large stained glass installations. But teaching art and art history has been my first love. And I've made a decent living of that, as well.

I am aware of the origins of the black dung madonna. I taught a unit on it, and we actually purchased some elephant dung paper as part of the study. It is very nifty stuff. I don't agree with the hype about the piece at all. My feelings about the artistic merit of the piece have nothing to do with shock and everything to do with the actual piece itself; I just don't like it. I don't find it offensive, I find it unremarkable and mundane. If you will note, I personally did not bring it up, the previous poster did. I would not have included it in a discussion of shock art. (although it obviously shocked folks who didn't understand the cultural significance of dung and the earth)

Maybe you need to have gone through the indoctrination of a BFA or MFA program in painting to understand the extent to which students are cowed by their prof's personal style dictates. Woe be to the student who paints in an impressionistic manner if the prof is a super realist. And woe to the student who, in class critique, states he/she really doesn't see the craft, the impact, in a glass jar of nails. An art department is the most politically incestuous bunch of yahoos on the face of the earth. Okay, that's hyperbole. But when you are in one, that is the way it feels. If you watched Six Feet Under and saw the character Claire's experiences, they were right on. I've been a student in art departments in three states, and taught in two.

Now I will apologize for acusing you of group think, because I misinterpreted your arrogant and ignorant comments. I thought you were saying I was ignorant and arrogant for thinking the BDM is crap. I get you now.

Thanks for discussing this thoroughly. I was bored and very cranky and you have perked me up considerably.

[Cults4Bush]

84. Beautiful response! Brava!

I can't and wont complain about your being bored and cranky. I wrote one of the most curse laden vindictive posts Ive ever written just yesterday. I was at the pique of pissy-ness and just hauled off and went to town on someone who criticized me through a fairly benign post of mine. It is ever the curse of these boards, we lose so much nonverbal communication on top of tone and some context that it is easy sometimes to just let fire and clean the ashes afterward. I dare say I posted to this thread about the same time. Many sincere apologies.

Now that I know exactly where you are coming from, I will say I was the one that was ignorant (of your actual understanding of the piece) and I totally get where you were coming from. Thats what I really wanted to hear, I guess. How you actually felt about the piece... and the explanation for the students, yep you are right about that as well.

About 6 Feet Under , if you do something with art and had no empathy for Claire than you might not really be doing anything with art. I loved how they got into the recoginition/ego thing when her and that other students' facial feature pic masks became popular and then following it up with failure when she tried to do other media/styles. That was very real to me... What a great show and the best finale ever, I cried like a banshee those last 10 minutes.

Ego seems to get in the way at college, with both students and instructors. Your illustrations to that effect were dead on from my observations as well.

I was told by my one and only paid art instructor after having several heated debates over focus and style to just do my own thing and never to take classes again. Not because I was good or anything but because I was passionate and going to do things my own damn way, so other than a few techniques and some technical know how there wasn't any reason to put another instructor through my hell. Best career advice I ever got... I often wonder if sometimes some students shouldn't have their apron strings cut from the instructor for the very reasons you listed ( I mean I know some budding artists obviously need discipline and instruction to achieve their potential), because some schools/instructors seem to be the anti-muse and that can absolutely snuff out the potential of a young artist.
Ahhh Im rambling here... sorry.

Again apologies for my own misunderstandings and any snark in my previous posts.

[ChazII]

50. Thanks for

the education.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

48. As a teacher, I'd imagine you could explain "symbols" vs. tangible

entities, i.e. actual physical buildings of intrinsic historical and theological value.

A "symbol" of whatever a third grader could relate to vs. the actual person/item. Maybe something like, if someone writes mean things on a picture of your house, it still isn't the same as someone burning down your house.

OTOH, that may be a little harsh. Good thing I don't teach third graders! MKJ

[TallahasseeGrannie]

68. The interesting thing is that

kids that young think in symbols and also draw and paint in symbols, which is a left-brained activity. For example, if I bring an African violet to class and have the kids paint it, most of them will draw a symbol for a flower: a daisy-like flower with a stem and two leaves in a flowerpot. And when you ask them to draw their house, most draw a square with a triangle roof and a chimney, even if they live in a ten-story housing project.

So they are very open to the concept of symbols.

[NuttyFluffers]

78. As being raised catholic those art pieces were very moving to me

i'm no longer catholic, but when i saw both of those pieces i was deeply touched in a forgotten recess where i stored my catholic learning. it was nothing about sacrilege, it was surprisingly a religious ecstatic experience for me to look at that art. i say openly that i wept at the beauty of "Piss Christ" when i first saw a reproduction of it. it was deeply moving on a spiritual level to me. what was sacrilege to others was symbolism achingly beautifully intertwined into a personal narrative of the piece. i look forward to owning a reproduction of the piece someday, it still moves me.

after awhile, while there is art that's really posers on parade, one starts to boil down that art is really an irreducibly personal experience, for both creator and observer. as i talk art with friends it quickly reduces into a similar answer i experience when in discussions of "what/who is god?" (with the ending usually being "god is god" or better yet "god is... the sentence cannot be finished for it is flawed in the first place"), "art is art." or better yet, "art... is."

[ClayZ]

39. Thanks for "teaching the children well" TallahasseeGrannie!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

70. Thanks for the affirmation

I really try..it's my life's work.

[wordpix]

5. HORRIBLE. GWChimp, thanks for bringing democracy & freedom to Iraq

:cry: :sarcasm:

[lonestarnot]

7. OOOPS! Can you say civil war?

5.9 Billion a month we're spending for this!

[xultar]

9. I am angry that our policies have ignited this civil war. This is

sickening and I cannot get over my anger @ this travesty.

[WillyT]

55. And It Is EXACTLY What We Were Warning People About Before This War !!!

The terrble loss of life, the destruction of an ancient civilization and its history, a bloody civil war, and a complete destabilization of the middle East!

Good work YOU ASSHOLES!!!

FUCK!!!

:nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke::nuke:

[xultar]

57. A-FUCKING-GREED! This administration has destroyed an ancient

civilization, enabled the looting of artifacts and destruction of landmarks.

SHAMEFUL SHAMEFUL SHAMEFUL

[leveymg]

12. There were the Cartoons, then the new Abu Ghraib photos, now this.

Something tells me the whole Arab and Islamic are about to go BOOM.

They aren't going to be very forgiving.

[corkhead]

37. when it becomes a PNAC parking lot, the oil will be ours!

:sarcasm: :nuke: :scared: :mad:

[Burried News]

13. A country with so little - now has even less. Very sad.

[Just Me]

14. Um, that was one helluva bomb. The shrine is obliterated.

Who did this? Who the hell would do such a thing and why? :shrug:

Who's NOT going to assume that the U.S. or Israel did this? We're the ones who delivered war and destruction and chaos and oppression on Iraq and her people.

Why does ANYONE wonder why we are hated so much? :shrug:

[Tesha]

28. Who would do it?

> Who the hell would do such a thing and why?

Who would do it?

1. One religious nutcase who thinks he'll help his coreligionists
in their struggle against other religious nutcases.

2. An agent provocateur trying to stir up the religious nutcases.

Either is equally likely in the insane asylum that is the Middle East.

Tesha

[converted_democrat]

15. Who did this.. Who destroyed it? n/t

[watrwefitinfor]

16. Who?

Someone who knew EXACTLY where to place their explosives for the effect they wanted.
Just your everyday, run of the mill Sunni insurgent.

:sarcasm: {in case you didn't notice)

Wat

[genie_weenie]

18. Oh Come On!

By the photos, the Dome is not completely destroyed. That Mossad agent must have misplaced the 20lbs of PE-4, because if he had dispersed it correctly it would have brought the whole thing down...

[librechik]

20. I'm with you, Wat

:tinfoilhat:

some unknown entity is deliberately inciting this wave of violence across Islam. Let's see, whose interest is served by having an insurgency that needs putting down?

[mod mom]

23. Truly sad. nt

[Zynx]

21. Probably Wahhabist insurgents. They don't exactly like Shia.

[QC]

26. Wow! A commonsense observation!

How did that get in here?

[kineneb]

38. possible

but I am not sure they would go so far as to blow up a mosque. This is a political move, not religous. An entity wishing to stir up the Iraqi mess even more.

[malaise]

47. Yep - too sad

1200 years old.

[Ernesto]

17. Thanks for the graphic, lc.. n-t

[leftchick]

19. you are welcome and I noticed your dates of service

Tet in 1968? I was thinking of it this morning as I viewed this carnage. I think Iraq is due for its own version of Tet very soon. :(

Thank you for your service Ernesto.

[Craig3410]

22. Is there any chance it could be rebuilt at all?

Oh yes, bush is a uniter, not a divider; he's singlehandedly united every single Shiite into fiery hatred of the US.

[Igel]

35. Why not?

The dome's not exactly an antiquity, a hundred years old.

Part of the buildings may be older, but they can also be rebuilt. It'll just take money, and I suspect that as with many Catholic buildings, there'll be no shortage of pious folk ready to sacrifice to rebuild it. Just call contributing to rebuilding it a mitzvah.

[FreedRadical]

24. As we sit hear

I hope the feeling that this is going to effect us all. There is no vacuum between hear and there. You would like to think that some great act of diplomacy could grow from this horror. But alas, what is to be?:think:

[Cooley Hurd]

25. Aerial view of Shrine before blast (from Google Earth):

FYI...

[kentuck]

27. If there wasn't a civil war, there is now.

This was one of their most holy sites.

[Yupster]

86. When the Mahdi Army

is called forth and told to attack the Sunni Triangle, then we will have a Civil War, and it will be a short one.

[laruemtt]

29. before this stinking invasion

i was always hoping at one time to be able to see mesopotamia, the tigris and euphrates, the "seat of civilization." i guess now i'll have to settle for a Macy's, McDonald's, and some strip malls in another latitude and longitude.

[KittyWampus]

30. OMFG! Iran and US ruled by "End Time" Presidents who believe return of

some holy figure or other is near... :wow:

'Ahmadinejad is also a firm believer in the imminent coming of the Mahdi'

[leftchick]

34. yes he is

isn't this great? :(

[Geoff R. Casavant]

31. Rebuilding fund?

Does anyone know if there will be a charitable fund established that will earmark funds for rebuilding this treasure?

[NorthernSpy]

32. it was really pretty

:cry:

It's terrible to see things like that destroyed.

[bloom]

33. Another photo

This stuff makes me sick.

[stop the bleeding]

36. I'm speechless n/t

[Cleita]

40. OMG. That was a work of art. Even if westerners don't grasp the

religious significance for Moslems, you have to be horrified with the destruction of beautiful buildings that are works of art. What if the Taj Mahal was bombed?

[ChazII]

54. Who ever did

this has shit for brains. I am not Moslem but the fact that this building is now in ruins has me in tears. I'd also like to see the ones responsible for this in prison forever -- no trial.

[Blue_In_AK]

43. This is really a shame...

I feel the same sadness I did when the Taliban blew up the Buddhas. I hate it when people have no respect for archeological treasures.

[Mabus]

82. I was thinking about the Buddhist temples too

Talk about Karma.

[sakabatou]

44. And there are people in the U.S. that applaud these tactics

[knitter4democracy]

46. Oh no!!!

How awful! I had heard "it sustained major damage" on NPR this morning. Um, that's more than major damage. That's so terrible and wrong!

[Democrat 4 Ever]

49. I heard on NPR this afternoon that Chucklenuts has promised to

re-build it. I think that is great but couldn't help but wonder if that was on Chucklesnuts' list before or after the Gulf Coast? I don't think anyone should look to this a$$wipe to effectively rebuild a sand castle much less anything else. Chimpy just can't help letting his mouth overload his ass every time he makes a sound.

[WinkyDink]

59. History cannot be "rebuilt".

[jim3775]

51. Another photo

[Rex]

52. Revenge, vendetta

hate, murder, freedom on the march...

[ChazII]

56. Shia Chat

has anyone checked out what the Shia's are saying?

[ecstatic]

58. All this madness inspired by US invasion-this is why we can't do port deal

I can't imagine the (justified) hate so many in the Middle East must feel right now towards Americans.

[Generic Other]

60. My tinfoil hat is blinking

Why would Sunnis want to purposely set off the majority Shite population against them? Like purposely stirring up an anthill when you are standing in it.

But if you are neo-cons with itchy trigger fingers, and you want to draw Iran into your target range, what better way than to blow up what are holy icons to their people.

If it's true these "insurgents" were wearing Iraqi uniforms, I can only speculate what nationality they were under the uniforms. Arab, Israeli, Iraqi, American, or Brit. Take your pick.

I can't decide whodunit. But I do have questions. Who has the most to gain? Who has the least? Who has been planning a war? Who has a timeline and agenda to meet? Who always "gins" the evidence and pulls the strings to get what they want? Who gains an advantage by riling up Iran? Who wants endless war?

This is the terror attack we've all been on the alert for.

[Terran1212]

61. CIA subterfuge is always possible

But not neccesarilly true. There's plenty of other people ready to do stuff like this.

[Generic Other]

62. Weren't two Brits caught with explosives in Iraqi uniforms last month?

Does anyon have a link to that story?

I no longer trust anything these slimebags in the WH do. Nothing. If they tell me it's daylight, I'll get my flashlight out, if they say it's night, I'll put on my sunglasses. I think our government is the culprit. Fool me once and all that.

[SoCalDem]

66. AND , the resulting civil war will be our "out"..

Look for our troops to leave soon.. The admin will spin this as the Iraqi failure to embrace democracy.."We tried, but they are not interested in democracy...Good Luck Iraqis, we're outta here"..

Of course the extra money needed to clean up the mess we helped create will be withheld too, so we have Afghanistan circa the 80s...destroyed, angry, and abandoned..

We will have to fight them again...perhaps when the next republican slithers under the door to the oval office..

The NEXT time we fight them, their neighbors will play a bigger role..Iran,Syria,Lebanon,the Palestinians(with or without their own country)..

We have had a 3 year long orgy of blood & money, and we have nothing to show for it except for another destabilized country that will tear itself to ribbons for 10-15 years..

and we wonder why "they hate us"

[Generic Other]

69. Are they leaving for home or for Iran?

When they market the idea 24/7, they are planning to implement it. That's been their MO for 5 years. They are trying to deepen the quagmire. Neo-con imperialism is on the march.

Doesn't matter what happens anywhere in Iraq now. The administration will blame Iran.

[SoCalDem]

71. It won't really matter

The WH is in Kamikaze-mode now. They know their time is limited, and they are gonna grab whatever they can..

That "volunteer" military, augmented by the rent-a-soldiers will do their leader's bidding..

We're all just along for the ride, hanging on for dear life...

[leftchick]

72. whether it was a US operation

or an actual Sunni insurgent attack it does not matter. It is still the fault of the USA for opening the pandora's box and Iraqis know whom to blame. I am siding towards the black ops myself.

[Yupster]

87. The Sunnis have ben bombing Shia Mosques

since this war started.

There have been suicide bombings in Mosques.

I don't know why this took anyone by surprise?

[stepnw1f]

67. OMG... all because of a Rich Selfish Brat

that has no soul. God I am angry as hell today.

[against all enemies]

73. Don't blame him, he thought it was a State Capitol.

[uppityperson]

75. Oh bloody hell. Civil war. BBC and al Jazeera links here too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4741762.stm

'Sunni militants' killed in Basra

Gunmen have killed at least 11 people after entering a prison in the southern Iraqi city of Basra, police have said. They said all of the victims were believed to be Sunni militants, including several foreigners.

The attack in the largely Shia city comes amid a wave of anger among Iraq's Shias over a bomb attack on one of their holiest shrines in Samarra.

Iraqi President Jalal Talabani has appealed for calm, and urged Iraqis to work together to avert a civil war.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6B989359-6D61-4A50-B4C8-ECCFFA49B0E6.htm

Armed men have detonated bombs inside one of Iraq's holiest Shia shrines, destroying its golden dome and triggering more than 90 reprisal attacks on Sunni mosques. In the latest incident, armed men in police uniforms seized 11 Sunni men from a prison in the mainly Shia city of Basra in southern Iraq on Wednesday and later killed them, police said. ....

(clipping)
In Washington, a senior US official said the al-Qaeda was suspected of being behind the attack on the Shia shrine. "We believe this can be traced back to the Zarqawi al-Qaeda movement," said the State Department's coordinator for Iraq policy, Ambassador James Jeffrey, on Wednesday adding the United States would do all it could to track down the perpetrators.

Asked what evidence the US had to link the attack to al Qaeda, Jeffrey said Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the al Qaeda leader in Iraq, had often called for attacks on Shia
targets and said they were aimed at sparking civil war.

"We are trying to connect the dots," he told reporters at the State Department. "We certainly think it would be in line with what they have been saying and doing

More at both links. Hell.

[Wilms]

76. K&R n/t

[rfkrfk]

77. is the dome itself, that big of a deal?

built in 1905.

where are the tombs?

BTW, this time use more re-bar

[ChazII]

79. Besides being a place of worship

it was also a work of art. How many buildings in our country are as architecturally aesthetically pleasing? This was a a travesty no matter what faith, no faith, belief no belief a person may have. While not Catholic, I wouldn't want to see anything happen to the Vatican.

While not Anglican, I would not want to see anything happen to Westminster or St. Paul's. The Taj Mahal is a third example of wonderful architecture and I am not a native of India. Many would mourn the loss of any of these structures.

At Shia Chat they are blaming the Americans.

Edited to add: The American were in the lead last night. Here is a link:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77262

[twaddler01]

85. They sound pretty pissed

Can't blame them....

[Ksec]

91. I heard the dome was a burial place

Lots of religious icons and Imams buried there from hundreds and hundreds of years back.

Its a mess over there. Thanks to the idiot who put us smack dab in the middle of a tinderbox.

Leave and let them alone. We have no right being in their business.

[T_Matamoro]

80. What do you call a 3-way war?????

This is typical muddy, mired, extremely complex middle eastern politics at it's worse.
Dubya is in WAAAAAAAAAAY over his head. This is how it goes. Sunnah HATE HATE HATE Shi'a and vice versa. Worse than any protestant/Catholic split. But at the same time Both hate the US. Well sort of. Little geopolitical lesson here - The Shi'a (arabs) in Iraq are our "allies" in that they represent the majority Gov't that works with us. BUT the Shi'a in IRAN (Farsi speaking not Arab) hate us but consider the Shia in Iraq as "brothers". So the Iranians have'nt stirred up anything in Iraq YET. Some Shi'a in Iraq hate us (al-sadr) but have been "quelled" by the main leader (al-sistani) into a cease fire. The Iranians have now heavily infiltrated Shi'a Iraq with intelligence officers and Arms, they plan to be influential with the Shia in Iraq and could engineer an uprising if say Iran is attacked by Isreal or the US over the nuclear issue. Now onto the Sunnah. They consider the Shia to be "apostates" and do things that Sunnahs dissapprove of. Like praying to "saints" and portaying Mohammud in artwork. In the Koran it says that all who abandon "islam" and become apostates must be killed. Allah wills it.:eyes: So the Sunnah fanatics attacked the "idolatrous" temple of the "apostates". This is going to be a prelude to the Civil war of Sunnah vs. Shi'a. The Iranians will support the Shi'a, God knows how the Sunnah nations will react to this. But both sides want the US eventually out. So soon enough our troops will have to worry about attacks from both Sunnah AND Shi'a insurgents! Right now it is 99% Sunnah that are attacking our troops. Phew! what a Godawful mess!

[Odin2005]

88. The people who did this are sick fucks.

Religious structures are usually the most beautiful expressions of a civilization, distroying them is an attack on a civilization's soul. Islam prohibits making images of religious things, so muslim structures have become famous for thier gorgeous and often gaudy coloration and patterns, especially artisitc calligraphy. The Shia have a god damned right to be pissed.

[ChazII]

89. Some more thoughts

by the Shia's"
http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=77301&st=0

[pinto]

90. I think this, oddly enough, given all the photos from this debacle, will

be the epitaph picture, that turning point moment for our involvement in Iraq.

[Ksec]

93. I think you are correct

This makes it really bad. Really really bad.