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harlinnchi Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:15 PM
Original message
About that recent listing of 'worst presidential mistakes' which...
omitted Iraq, wasn't the timing of that a little curious? The list mentioned actions or inactions by Johnson and Buchanan, egregious stuff by both relating to either the prevention or the mitigation of the effects of the Civil War. It listed stuff by Madison, Wilson and Jefferson and it, of course had Clinton's Lewinsky situation. The list talked about all of these serious events, wars and matters of international importance and then throws a personal affair into it. Worst, it does not list Bush and Iraq.

But my point is that later on, some will say (dadgum how I dislike that 'some will say' phrase; it's so GOP-like) that scholarly listings of presidential mistakes did not include Bush in surveys taken after the outset of the Iraq war. My further point is that these guys use a method where, after the feces has hit the rotary blade, in mid-splatter, so to speak, they toss other items into the storm to determine what can be further manipulated. I think this is one of those tidbits.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/18/president.mistakes.ap/

Get business done while tossing distraction after distraction into the public view. Anyone heard 'bout that $8.8 billion missing in Iraq? How 'bout the budgetary provisions for implementing portions of the Social Security reform initiative we all thought was so thoroughly refused? What's the latest with Abramoff/Plame leak/Delay, etc.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. History will not look kindly on the debacle that is Iraq.
The civil war that the USA is responsible for starting there will last for a least a decade and
possibly longer.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. May be peanuts...
compared to civil situation that may face America before long as a consequence, as always, of the Bush legacy. We may yet face the challenge that every so often befalls any 'free' people of having to try to keep our freedoms and put our country back on track (and it's likely to be terribly hard as well probably be facing the worst economic conditions/depression the country has ever known at the same time). Freedom never was free, it only seemed like it (for some members of some generations).
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PurpleChez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I like to think that history will be savage to *. Bloody.
I expect being irked well into old age listening to old bushbots trying to explain why old george w. felon was the best damn leader the world has ever seen and we just didn't appreciate what we had.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Yeah, and how he strove to save the country...
from the overwhelming debt, and prevent the rise of the terrorist threats, and sought to maintain world peace, and brough freedom (from life) and Democracy to the middle east, and worked hard to grow the economy before it collapsed due to the mis-management of Democrats in previous decades, and how he was a true champion of the environment seeking to save the forests (from the wild animals and for the important purpose of providing paper and making money for his friends) and how his energy policy slowed the devastating effects of Global Warming (and how he really did know it was real, he just didn't want to alarm the populace by implementing any alarmist policies), and how he sought to make our ports more secure (by letting middle eastern nationals to run them--since they'd likely be friends of the terrorists, surely they would know best how to prevent misuse of our ports... duhhhherrrhh)... and so on.

An old, wealthy Rethug remembers...
Yes, the long overdue and very wise tax cuts were unable to prevent the growing deficits (duh, couldn't be because they were the cause of them!) and required the modest (modest my ass, they were the largest ever!) expansion of the public debt... between them and the disgraceful behavior of OPEC--who really secretly hated us for our "freedoms"--choosing the Euro (nevermind the Dollar becoming worthless due to our unsupportable debt making it necessary for them to change) and those squinty-eyed, untrustworthy, ungrateful Chinese not forgiving the debt we took on in our attempt to help grow their economy (yeah, that's why we had such a trade deficit... sure it was)... finally, the dollar collapsed. Meanwhile, although the economy was robust and grew and grew (no, corporate profits grew and grew), there was a vast increase (actually a dramatic decrease from previous decades!) in the creation of jobs (slave labor-like jobs--while simultaneously quality employment were ever more completely moved to foreign countries!). To ensure our competitiveness in the world, the growth in the healthcare expenses were resolved by deft Presidential directive (lowering costs by making health insurance ever more scarce even for employees--who then had to do without; suffering was rife in the country). In order to help the healthcare industry, the President also ensured that our noble and socially responsible drug companies were able to continue to receive just payment for their products (and so gouged Medicare and all Americans while selling the same drugs throughout the rest of the world at less than 1/4 the cost). Insurance companies were further strengthened by being allowed to make wise choices (and drop people who became ill and then attempted to actually use their "insurance"). Times being difficult, so it was that we finally suspended all those pointless, counter-productive "tree hugging" oppressive environmental regulations (what of the destruction of the forests, oceans, fish and wildlife, air, water and food and the resulting loss of health and quality of life?) on business--which immediately resulted in increased profits (what of wage growth and research and investment?), for corporations which experienced record levels of profit while rightfully enjoying total immunity from labor laws, environmental regulations, financial oversight, anti-trust monitoring, and lawsuits by consumers harmed by their products and activities... yes, all these minor things happened back then... and a small number of Americans finally had to face reality, the reality that they couldn't continue to spend, spend, spend when, owing to their lack of education and middle-class values, they didn't make enough income to support their lifestyles. It was about time they got what was coming to them--and our hard-working Republican leaders had had the foresight to ensure that they wouldn't weasel out of their responsibiilities by making bankruptcy a practical impossibility! Nevertheless, to the extent the economy had a difficult time (America's economy totally collapsed and thus it joined the ranks of the Third World; of course, the wealthy never felt a thing!), the "real" cause was the downward spiral the economy had been locked into as a consequence of Bill Clinton's mismanagement and sexual misadventures, and a little "bad luck" in the form of an unavoidable war with Afghanistan, another unavoidable war with IRAQ, another with IRAN, OPEC switching to the Euro, multiple hurricanes, and an unfortunate and totally unpredictable (nobody ever dreamed such a thing could happen--well, nobody except just about everybody outside of the Republican leadership anyway), unexpected, incredible failure of some levees in New Orleans... These things were unfortunate, but totally natural (not a consequence of stupidity, egotism, mis-management; though granted, some natural disasters will occur), but we could hardly afford them--we simply didn't have the Federal Revenues (oh, and tax-cuts don't have any bearing on "Federal Revenues" right?). To the extent that there was a problem responding to these natural events, it was due to an inappropriate fantasy by the citizens that their government should "do everything for them"--the federal failures proved that government cannot be the answer (oh, and the previous stellar successes and remarkable efficiency of FEMA under Clinton didn't show that it was merely Republican mismanagement that was the problem?). There was also the fantastic cost of man-made catastrophes--9/11 for instance. It cost us hundreds of billions of dollars (no, only a few billion, actually; not counting misdirected, unnecessary wars of choice). Some say terrorism is out of control; it's true there are millions of terrorists now (up from a few, perhpas tens of thousands thanks directly to unnecessarily invading IRAQ), but that was unavoidable (hardly)--there'd be billions now (this guy doesn't know how big a 'billion' is) if it hadn't been for our Greatest President (I have to :puke: now) and his courageous (obviously didn't really understand that so-called President--the Catastrophe in Chief who went AWOL, even during his stateside national guard deployment) stand against them... But far and away the MOST important of all causes--even more than previous Democratic incompetence (yeah, surplusses, job growth, prosperity is incompetent?) was the fact that the American people were so shortsighted and ignorant that they rejected the President's earnest attempts to fix the terrible and growing burden of Social Security and other entitlements... they were the ultimate cause of any hard times... :sarcasm:

If such thinking weren't so stupid--as well as being deadly serious, it'd be laughable. You know, I haven't seen the latest polls on this, but I would hazard that it's still true that a majority of grass-roots Republicans (synonymous with "Delusional") actually believe that Bush is "pro-environment" (not a tree-hugger exactly, but wants to preserve our natural world and keep our environment clean and healthy). Absurd. Just as absurd as thinking he's ever said anything, even once in passing (except by mistake), that's actually true/honest. He probably even deceives himself alot of the time (when he's not being misled by his advisors or intentionally deceiving others).
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
2. Something I caught on AAR...
is that the list only applies to past presidents, not sitting ones, and that is the ONLY reason Bush's failures haven't been on that list.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Before he's done Bush may have all top ten.
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neuvocat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Well...
someone joked that they could only keep the list with 10 entries at the time. I'm sure Bush will get at least half of those by the time he's finally out.
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harlinnchi Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I didn't know that. I thank you for the info.
Dadgummit, that kinda takes the sting out of it. And I'm sure you're right; that would be the only reason for his being omitted.

Thanks.
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neoblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Then by all means, we need to get Bush included...
on the list of "past" presidents!
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Worst, it does not list Bush and Iraq".
or even just list B*sh
as
THE BIGGEST MISTAKE.
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-23-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Bush's quagmire in Iraq that spawned a civil war is no doubt no. 1
History cannot ignore how we got there. It cant ignore the lies and manipulations used . Its impossible to see how this will end up but if history has any say, then I feel pretty sure that the thousand year war between the two religions will continue, after a brief respite during Saddam's rule.

You cant ignore the costs in men and money, and this is shaping up as one of the most expensive wars in history (if not the most expensive?) With the costs and then the bogus reasons it was started, it should be number one, without a close second.
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-24-06 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. it depends
on whether "war on terror" is 1 mistake, or each part of it, Iraq, NSA spying, port deal, torture is a separate mistake.

Surely Clinton is not long for that list. #'s 7-9 may get a reprieve as well.
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