Paranoid thought about Phelps: Talk me out of this!

[SmokingJacket]

Okay, I'm pretty sure Fred Phelps and family are on their own here: just doing their hateful thing for the sheer joy of it. But this got me thinking: apparently some states are talking about outlawing picketing at funerals -- which to me sounds like a fine idea; imagine being a family member of a dead soldier and having to face THOSE people!

But could this be the plan all along? I mean to get decent Americans to equate the idea of protesting with Phelps, so that the idea of outlawing protest becomes much easier to swallow?

I have to admit I've been suspicious of what Phelps has been up to ever since he moved beyond just picketing gay people's funerals to picketing the funerals of soldiers. Of course, deep down he's just an attention hog, so that's probably what this is all about... but I can't help feeling there's more to his actions than meets the eye.

And does anyone know where he gets his money?

[Daphne08]

1. I think the American people are smarter than that. I'm sure they

see Phelps as a nut.

[Minnesota Libra]

9. Ya, but keep in mind we thought Americans were smarter than.......

.....to vote an actor into the WH - twice no less!! We also thought Americans were smarter than to buy into the fact that a President's sex life outweighed that same President's ability to run a country. Last but not least, we thought the American people had more brains than to vote someone who had NEVER had a successful business of his own into the office of President of the most power country on the face of the earth. So I think the term "American people" and "smart" all in the same sentence is a gross contradiction of terms.

[SmokingJacket]

24. That's what I'm saying -- everyone hates him...

so it's easy to make laws trying to shut him up.

But those laws will apply to everyone, not just crazy-ass Phelps. I guess I think we should tread carefully, that's all.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I have always thought

something doesn't add up with Phelps. Just too bizarre. Who knows, your theory might hold water!

[TornadoTN]

3. It's a good point and you raise an important question

I don't think you are paranoid at all. Phelps is an idiot and an attention hog, but what he is doing is indeed, peaceful (yet tasteless) protest.

Phelps is just a starting point, but it opens the door for all sorts of legislation limiting ANY type of protest/speech that one group may find offensive. Follow it through to its logical conclusion and you can see how scary it truly is.

[SoCalDem]

8. Here's the thing..

When you or I (or any ordinary person) wants to protest his/her own governmental official at a public event, we get herded into pens, far away from the actual event so they are not "disturbed".....


and yet...

a private burial service for a dead serviceman is an "ok" place for people to scream and yell and harrass? I don't think so.

Why isn't ole Fred protesting at the recruitment centers where it all starts?

[TornadoTN]

12. Good point

I have such a hard time swallowing "free speech zones" or the other affronts to our speech that have occurred during this administration. It is a double-standard that these guys get their choice of where to protest with their hate-filled, putrid argument in the name of "religion".

I want to see these people gone as much as the next person, but I fear legislation aimed at curbing any type of protest. If I knew for sure that the legislation would affect only Phelps and his group or groups like them, then I have no problem supporting it. But we all know that the government (especially the current one) does not stop once the door has been opened.

[BOSSHOG]

4. phelps exercising his first amendment rights

is part of the price of freedom and democracy. He is just extremely lucky that I have not been in attendance at the funerals he has chosen to act up at. He probably is looking for a confrontation but that would be fine. Who but bush supporting religious zealots would come down on his side? We do not need to ban his kind of action.

I am a veteran and it would be an honor to have scum such as him and his kind protest my burial and my service to my country. My wife would kick his ass and his shrew daughter's ass in a heartbeat.

[11 Bravo]

23. I'm with you, Boss!

I, too, am somewhat of a 1st Amendment extremist. But if there is such a thing as "justifiable homicide", there sure as shit ought to be such a thing as "justifiable assault", ie: a good, old-fashioned ass-whupping!

[mark11727]

29. I've been reading posts on this thread and another like it...

...and it just occurred to me --- are cemeteries PUBLIC, PRIVATE, or (in the case of military funerals) GOVERNMENT property?

It would seem to make sense that the diocese could simply make it a matter of policy --- friends and family only, and keep your crazy-assed bigotry outside the gate.

Just sayin'.

[ret5hd]

5. phelps plan, his only plan...

is to do something, anything, to get someone to punch him, arrest him, slander him, etc. The phelps klan survives on lawsuits. The whole family is lawyers.

[FatDave]

27. But he can't sue you if he doesn't know who you are

Say for instance if 5 guys dressed like Jesus were to jump out of nowhere, beat him with socks full of quarters, then run away.

[ret5hd]

28. where's my jesus suit? we'll meet at 11.

[MuseRider]

6. He may accomplish this but I don't

think it is his intention. I think BushCo may use it for this though.

Remember, he has been doing this for many many years.

[SmokingJacket]

15. I think I remember him protesting at my college, back in the 80s...

We had a large gay and lesbian population. I just thought it was weird when he started protesting non-gays.... his new M.O. might not have anything to do with anything, but my little antenna started twitching...

[MuseRider]

18. I'm actually glad to see that someone

remembers this. All the documentation says he started this in 1990 or 91 but I remember my very young sons asking me why those signs had guys playing leap frog on them. I know they were younger when they asked that than they were in 90 or 91. I guess I never figured he would ever go beyond my city, just a local wacko, I should have kept track better.

[zbdent]

7. Print out some "business cards"

and go out the night before "Memorial Day" or "Veterans' Day" and drop off some "phelps" business cards on the military graves . . . make them look mostly legit, but still sick . . .

[atommom]

10. I think most of the money is from family. His congregation is

mostly his extended family, and many of them are attorneys. I'm sure there are many in our government who would love to criminalise protests, but my gut feeling is that Phelps is just doing his own thing, not trying to help the government crack down on protestors. After all, picketing is his church's main activity. And he despises BushCo as much as he despises anyone else. (He's a Dem, for the record, but as far as I can tell he hates Dems just as much.) He has picketed Bush, Laura, and Sam Brownback, to name a few.

IMHO, he began the funeral picketing to get more exposure and more media attention. In his own area, the media largely ignores him, because they recognise him as a publicity whore. He's smart enough to know that picketing funerals will bring him lots and lots of attention, and that's all that matters to him.

[TornadoTN]

21. Phelps may be doing his own thing

But the government may use this as a stepping stone to further crackdowns on protest. Think about it, EVERYONE is opposed to this nutcase Phelps, so what better place to start implementing an agenda than under the guise of something that we are all opposed to.

[SmokingJacket]

26. Thank you -- you said it better than I did. nt

[Plaid Adder]

11. Find something else to worry about.

Phelps has been doing his thing since at least the 1980s. It used to be that only the gay community knew or cared about him because we were the ones he targeted. Eventually he figured out that he needed to attack someone about whom the rest of the country actually gives a shit, and this is the result.

Phelps is either the most hateful man alive or clinically insane or both. That's really the summary. He's not part of a network because nobody wants to be associated with him. His 'church' is his family, several members of whom he is alleged to have brutally abused. As I understand it the money comes mainly from settlements he gets by filing lawsuits against people who get sick of his bullshit and 'harass' him.

The motivation for this ban on protests at funerals is to protect American soldiers from having to put up with the same shit from him that Matthew Shepard's family and the families of any number of AIDS victims have had to put up with over the years in the name of the first amendment. A law like that could of course be used for fascist purposes but I think it's overthinking to ascribe intentionality to this. He's just finally pissed off a powerful constituency at a time when respect for the first amendment is at an all-time low. Call it the perfect shitstorm.

We have real problems. Don't waste any time trying to understand Phelps. There is no secret pattern that would make him make sense. Sometimes a batshit crazy hateful lunatic is just a batshit crazy hateful lunatic.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[atommom]

13. I love that last sentence. You captured it perfectly.

"Sometimes a batshit crazy hateful lunatic is just a batshit crazy hateful lunatic."

Best analysis of Phelps ever.

[SmokingJacket]

19. You are no doubt right...

I do remember him and his family years ago, protesting at my college, and how simultaneously creepy and laughable he was. Our tactics at the time were to walk past them as if they were were invisible... because he wanted to get a rise and ignoring him was the best way to fight him.

I guess it bothers me that he suddenly began getting so much media attention a few years ago. I can't help but feel like we are playing into his hands.

[Plaid Adder]

22. He got more attention because he shifted the target.

That's the only reason. And yes, if a law against picketing at funerals is passed, then that's bad for civil rights, but it's not necessarily a bonus for Phelps, except inasmuch as it will lead to him getting arrested more often and thus feed his martyr complex. That's not 'playing into his hands.' All Phelps wants is to make a lot of people miserable, and he can do that whether this law passes or not.

I would prefer it if they would deal with this by getting some kind of universal restraining order against Phelps, but if this is how they do it, well, the first amendment has already taken worse hits, I don't think this is going ot make much of a difference. As far as I know, Phelps is the only guy in America who wants to picket a funeral.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[MuseRider]

20. Exactly

and it really angers me that only now does anyone really do anything about the funeral protests. Why did it not matter before?

I can testify, he is a batshit crazy hateful lunatic and always has been.

[theHandpuppet]

31. Thank you.

Gay people have had to put up with the Phelps' clan hateful shit for 20 years but it seems to me very few gave a damn until he turned his hate against American soldiers. Yet he's only picketing soldiers' funerals because of his twisted hatred for gays. Well folks, we have families, too, and their pain at losing loved ones is just as real as those of military families. How do you think Matthew Shepard's family felt when the Phelps clan descended upon his funeral? You want to see the crap gay folks have been putting up with from these maggots? Go to http://www.godhatesfags.com/ Make sure you hit the "enter" button so you can savor the full flavor of Phelps' hate.

Tolerating bigots because they don't happen to be targeting your life only comes around to bite everyone in the ass, sooner or later.

Sorry, but I'm feeling a bit thin-skinned on this issue.

[Carni]

14. When did he start this and what's his excuse for doing it?

I understand your paranoia because I find it very odd that Phelps is doing this...I know he's nuts but what is his premise for this?

Anyone know?

[Initech]

16. Read these:

Provides some insight into Phelps' insanity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps#The_Laramie_Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#Purpose

[Plaid Adder]

17. He's nuts. That's the explanation.

He has a rationale for this but it only makes sense to him. Apparently God is destroying American soldiers because America is too tolerant of homosexuality, so picketing the funerals of dead soldiers is an act of virtue. Or something like that.

The point is: it doesn't make sense. You know what? It NEVER made sense. Phelps's hateful funeral theater only *appeared* to make sense because America is used to the idea that vicious homophobia is a common human trait that doesn't require explanation. His hatred of gay men was always irrational, unfounded, and insanely out of proportion. The only reason people 'understood' that and don't understand this is that homophobia 'makes sense' even to people who don't share it, whereas hatred of dead American soldiers doesn't.

What pisses me off as I watch people talk about this is that nobody seems to get this: Phelps picketing Matthew Shepard's funeral was EXACTLY as insane and inexplicable as his picketing of these soldiers' funerals. The fact that it's taken this new development to get people interested in bottling him up just shows you how devalued gay people are here and how willing people are to accept the idea to accept homophobia as part of our cultural logic.

Anyway. My point is, he has a premise, but it's insane. Same as it's always been since back in the 1980s.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[redwitch]

25. Matthew Shepard's death was what tuned me in to Phelps existence.

I felt sick for days after looking at the Phelp's website. Homophobia makes no sense to me, never has. I find it unAmerican, stupid and hateful. Picketing ANY funeral is so wrong, I have no words strong enough to denounce it.

[Carni]

33. Yes, he's a real pig

Maybe it's a good thing that a broader audience is getting a load of how vile he is! Let's hope so!

[redwitch]

34. I think it MAY be a good thing.

People may be shocked into recognizing their own bigotry, and then rejecting it. How horrible it would be to look at the hateful Phelps family, and see them reflected back at you.

[Carni]

32. Don't get me wrong I have a long history of hating the guy

I think this isn't any more nutty, or hateful than his past exploits....
I just haven't had access to the info about what he's been doing this week
(my kid has been on break from school and the TV has been hijacked)

I couldn't understand why suddenly he was protesting the military/ or the Iraq war
(that certainly didn't seem like his MO)

Now I get it...he's taken up the typical Phelps/Jerry Falwell type logic that anyone they don't *approve of* is the cause of 911, Hurricanes, wars and the like.

Thanks for the info/ I could not imagine that Phelps had suddenly become
anti-military based on policy or something and yes, he is nuts.

[Rocknrule]

30. Why don't they put HIM in free speech zones?

His message is much more hateful and negative than that of antiwar protesters, to say the least, and unlike us, he really DOES hate America. Of course, his beliefs don't make Der Fuherer uncomfortable, so that's probably why they leave him alone.