Hesiod post at kos is a MUST READ - he nails Hackett swiftboating to Rove

[blm]

Remember when Rove tried to use Clark's camp as the rumor spreader about Kerry's nonexistent affair? Hesiod points out all the earmarks at his post.

I implore EVERYONE to read it.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/24/10920/4771

[bunkerbuster1]

1. keeked.

and I will keek again. yes, must read.

Rover's repukes are the true enemy. We mustn't ever forget this.

[wicket]

2. K & R

:kick:

[GrpCaptMandrake]

3. I can buy it

But still, the author makes a critical error. Hackett was never "in" the race. He wouldn't even file to run.

A Rovian dirty trick is certainly part of the mix. Makes sense in its own way, since Sherrod Brown has been a devoted liberal during his tenure in the House. He has the experience and the smarts to step up to the Senate.

The most important part of the piece is the author's call for Hackett to step up and be a man and support the guy who *will* be running against DeWhine in November.

[blm]

5. Also, Hesiod's note that Rove is very much working on Ohio for 2006.

They can't lose power there because Ohio houses an integral part of their nationwide vote-stealing network.

[FreedomAngel82]

57. I didn't know that which brings another question

So if Hackett was never formally involved in the race how could there be a primary and how could he keep running and have donors? None of this makes any sense!

[madfloridian]

4. Not everything is Rove's fault. Sometimes we eat our own.

I did not have a choice especially in the Ohio race. I just feel that it was our own fault it happened.
We were so afraid of the mention of anything controversial...referring to the mention of war crimes, of Hackett's outspokenness....that overreaction set in.

[blm]

6. I think Hesiod explains it VERY CREDIBLY.

It rings true - and I tend to be pretty cynical about these things.

Sure, some of us eat our own, but, with the kind of stakes involved in Ohio, it's more than likely Rove is behind this. By getting Hackett worked up he helps keep a Senate seat AND a Congressional seat - and make it look like Brown's camp is at fault, dividing the Dem party in Ohio.

This is EXACTLY their MO. You would be hard-pressed to find any history of Brown employing tactics so divisive and underhanded.

[glitch]

12. "This is EXACTLY their MO." just what I was thinking, and I haven't read

it yet. Off to read it now, but it fits.

[CTyankee]

30. Well said, exactly my reaction

Who has the most to gain from the swiftboating? It is so obviously Rove that it's laughable. Why can'tthe Dems get out in front on this?

[FreedomAngel82]

59. I still have a lot of question's about Hackett though

Why didn't he ever file officially? If he didn't file ever than wouldn't he not be on the primary ballets or the ballet in general and when people go out to vote for him his name would be absent?

[PassingFair]

75. He leaves out the devisive and underhanded tactics of Sherrod's

FRIENDS, Edward Feighan and Robert Gibbs:

Dr. Dean yesterday told reporters, "This is a mistake for these Democrats to be doing this. It's why people have given up on Democrats, and it's why people have given up on people from Washington in general."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1217-03.htm

"Its treasurer, Mr. Jones, is a former fund-raiser for Mr. Gephardt. The group's president, Edward F. Feighan, a former Ohio congressman, donated $2,000 to Mr. Gephardt's campaign. Its new spokesman, Robert Gibbs, had been the press secretary for the presidential campaign of Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts until a few weeks ago."

ROVE MY ASS! This stuff is PURE DLC/DSCC from the get-go.

How stupid do you think people are?

[blm]

76. Baloney - Schumer and Reid aren't DLC - they wanted Hackett in, then

wanted him out. The money wasn't there, and no Dems in congress really wanted to be forced to go against one of their trusted colleagues.

You aren't factoring in that many PROGRESSIVE dems in Ohio did not want to support Hackett over Brown, who they had a long relationship with. You think Dennis Kucinich was going to dump on Brown after all these years of working together?

And try being REALLY HONEST - if WE internet activist types would have inundated Hackett with more money than Brown's backers did, Hackett would have had a better chance of staying in the primary.

Sometimes you just have to wake up and smell the coffee.

It also wasn't Clark spreading the rumor that Kerry had an affair, even though members of his camp ALMOST became culpable of doing it, just as Rove planned it.

[PassingFair]

78. I'm TRYING to factor in the WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

Which doesn't seem to matter much to the democratic party!

Again:

"Dr. Dean yesterday told reporters, "This is a mistake for these Democrats to be doing this. It's why people have given up on Democrats, and it's why people have given up on people from Washington in general."


I can SMELL the coffee, it is RANCID!

[blm]

80. You think Dean knows the whole story? I doubt it. Schumer and Reid don't

know the whole story. They are all reacting to a variety of pressures including rumors.

They questioned rumors - well, WHO started the rumors? Most likely Rove.

They questioned money - well WHO wasn't putting up the big dollars? YOU and ME and the thousands of others who would have liked to see Hackett run.

[PassingFair]

82. That's right, so let the corporations run their surrogates

...no sense letting the "activist base" :crazy:
work for real choice.

Bah.

[blm]

85. BULL - Sherrod Brown is NOT A CORPORATE CHOICE. His record PROVES IT.

You are one who never lets a candidate's ACTUAL RECORD OF GOVERNANCE inform your attacks on them.

I liked both men for what they brought to the table - but, I'll be DAMNED if I am going to LIE about one of them.

[PassingFair]

86. I have NEVER made a post against Sherrod Brown.

I am posting against the method by which the party determines
WHO we will get to vote for.

You see ROVE behind every bush. BOO!

There is enough skulduggery in our own party to blame
without dragging your boogeyman into it.

[blm]

88. BS - you just said above he was a corporate run surrogate.

What else is that supposed to mean?

[PassingFair]

91. Here is what I said:

"let the corporations run their surrogates".

If you don't think we have a problem in our party
that involves circumventing and the outright knee-capping
of candidates who arise from the activism of the
actual grass roots of the people of this country,
then we have to once again agree to disagree.

[blm]

95. Just keep it straight that not all are corporatists - that charge is made

against damn good Democrats who don't deserve that type categorization. I am always dead serious when I bring up corporate influence. I don't take it lightly, at all.

[ldf]

167. do you think dean doesn't MAKE A POINT

to KNOW THE STORY? this has been an ongoing story.

he may not be in on it, but i imagine he has a good grasp on the shady dealings that are going on.

[FreedomAngel82]

108. They aren't DLC

Brown is a very very progressive person and voted against the war and everything. If the DLC was involved they would have not gone with Brown.

[wakeme2008]

9. No for me...

kOS is just trying to cover his blog. I trust him as much as drudge.

[blm]

22. Hesiod was a Hackett supporter

.

[wakeme2008]

25. And Drudge is Fair and Balanced

:rofl:

[Kolesar]

27. what's your point? eom

[wakeme2008]

35. What I said in my first post

DKos is a Drudge type blog.

[Kolesar]

37. That's what you say. DKos is a message board.

Is Hesoid an appointed writer there, or is Hesoid just another diarist ?

[EFerrari]

29. Hesiod is a troll.

:rofl:

[blm]

32. ?

Fill me in. I never heard anything like that, and this post of his certainly rings true.

[EFerrari]

34. I was thinking about Hesiod and not his namesakes.

lol

:)

[blm]

71. Oops - I went a little dense there for a second. I was in a DU mindset

.

[EFerrari]

72. Sometimes I get 'way too geeky.

:)

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

69. Have you read Hesiod, FreedomAngel82?

I didn't think so. So, how would you know what kind of "idiot" I am? lol


Hesiod (Hesiodos), the early Greek poet and rhapsode, presumably lived around 700 BC. Historians have debated the priority of Hesiod or of Homer, and some authors have even brought them together in an imagined poetic contest. Modern scholars disagree as to which was earlier; their lives very likely overlapped.

Hesiod serves as a major source for knowledge of Greek mythology


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesiod

[FreedomAngel82]

113. You're talking about the poster and calling them a troll because

they said something you don't like. :eyes:

[blm]

132. Actually, FA, the post was a joke about the real Hesiod - I missed it, too

at first.

[glitch]

15. If there's a dirty trick, and Rove has a motive, he's the first suspect

not the last. His history demands it.

[FreedomAngel82]

58. Did you even read it and the other posts?

Hackett was never formally in the race. HE NEVER FILED TO RUN! So what the fuck was he doing running if he wasn't going to be on the ballets?!

[SOS]

89. Filing deadline was 2/16/06

nt

[DavidDvorkin]

7. Is this the Hesiod who used to have a blog?

I remember that blog fondly, although I'm embarrassed to admit that I can't remember what he called it.

[blm]

8. Pretty sure it's the same guy.

.

[Arkansas Granny]

11. I'm pretty sure this is the same guy. The name was Counterspin

Central. It was my first stop every morning.

[DavidDvorkin]

55. Right! Counterspin.

One of my regular stops, too.

Mabye he's getting the blogging bug again.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. I can certainly buy this theory. It sounds like Rove's MO.

[blm]

13. I didn't even connect it till Hesiod reminded about how Clark camp was

used to foment a rumor. It came back like a ton of bricks then. Fortunately, Clark and Kerry were used to rumors being spread about them at that point. Some in their camps weren't and fell hard for the lies.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. And they both had class about the deal

I wasn't involved in politics than but from what I know about both guys and their characters they both have class and from what others here said they both didn't attack each other. Hackett could learn from them.

[PassingFair]

77. No, sounds more like the MO of Gibbs, Jones, and Feighan

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1217-03.htm

Wouldn't surprise me if they used UNION money for their
dirty works, too.

I hope Howard takes some people to the woodshed over this.

I hope he has that kind of power.

[OzarkDem]

121. No, don't think so

Brown has very strong and loyal union support.

[JI7]

14. no surprise, and Hackett is falling for it

[Dr.Phool]

17. I think Hackett is starting to catch on.

He seems to have toned it down some.


http://www.cleveland.com/weblogs/openers/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_openers/archives/2006_02.html#115638


Update 10:27. And supplies these quotes suggesting Hackett has:

1) urged Democrats to move on

HACKETT: I may not like the fact that it unrolled this way with me.
That’s life. Given the choice, I’d rather see Sherrod Brown as my
next Senator…Why do I want to hurt him if we can get him elected.
I’m not suggesting that I want to go hunting with him or fishing with
him…I don’t have to like him personally. I have to like his politics…
I’m proud to say that I’m a team player…Everybody who is upset about this, get over it now and let’s work hard to get Democrats on the ticket elected. They may not be perfect, but they are better in most cases than the alternative. Certainly in Ohio that’s the case. So, all that are spun about it, let’s make sure all the Democrats that make in on the ticket this Fall get elected in Ohio. And that’s improvement. And they will ultimately improve the process and make America better for all of us.

SOURCE: Randi Rhodes Show (2/15/06)

2) downplayed the "swiftboating" explanation for his withdrawal:

(ED) SCHULTZ: Paul, why did you withdraw from this race for the U.S.
Senate in Ohio?

HACKETT: Uh, the short answer is that it was the right thing to do at
this point. Look, it takes a lot of money and a lot of effort. And
the hard cold reality is that I had six weeks to put together
millions of dollars. We were having a lot of success raising the
money, but the reality is that in the next six weeks I was not going
to have enough money to be able to get the message out in the last
three weeks of the campaign. And I just had to look at it
dispassionately even though it is a tough decision to make and make
the call. That’s basically what it boiled down to.
(snip)
more

[Kolesar]

26. a ''cold day in hell'' ?!!

Hackett, a major in the Marine Corps Reserves, said it would be a ''cold day in hell'' before he would make peace with Brown.
edit:
The only accomodating remarks by Hackett were things he said a week ago that the Brown campaign pointed out. As far as I can see, Paul's last words were rage. I hate him.

[FreedomAngel82]

62. Too much damage has been done

So thanks for nothing Hackett. And funny how he doesn't ever tell his supporters to support Brown.

[UTUSN]

16. Yip, just this morning some "author" was on Faux & Friends

supposedly an authority on New England politicians. He claimed that, yes, ROMNEY *is* a viable candidate despite the Fundies detesting Mormons and that he has had intimate contact with former KERRY supporters who, he sez, incredibly believe Ohio was stolen. Yip, the professional hands of smear are definitely working in high gear. Too bad we don't know how to fight back.

Edit: It was THIS jerk, Howie CARR, who exudes the smarmy slime of Mike BARNICLE *and* Dick MORRIS (cousins to Roy COHN) combined.

"The Brothers Bulger: How they terrorized Boston for ...years" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446576514/ref=pd_ts_b_10/104-8181780-6945535?n=2&s=books&v=glance

[emulatorloo]

18. I always thought this was the work of Rove or a Rove Minion

and have offered a similar theory on DU. This is standard GOP operating procedure. Stir the Pot and Divide and Conquer.

Goal - get hackett out, smear brown, get outraged dems to stay home or vote third party.

[blm]

20. I hope Hesiod sees this so I can give him a thumbs up.

I don't post at kos, I only go there on occasion. if any kos folks see this tell him I believe he nailed this one.

[Joanne98]

19. That's not the problem........

I live in Ohio and the Dems are clueless. The DLC is still the problem. They won't even admit the machines are rigged. THEY DON'T TALK TO THE BASE SO RUMORS SPREAD! If they weren't so secretive, people wouldn't have to guess at everything. I've totally exasperated. I thought Dean would help but nothing does. BTW I'm supporting Sherrod Brown, but I"m in for long time cleaning out of the Dems. I"M SICK OF THE LEADERSIP! They're losers.

[blm]

21. The Dem party in Ohio was left to die on the vine in the 90s.

They had no infrastructure built up in 2000 or 2004 - and I cannot believe that Clinton and MacAuliffe allowed it to happen.

I think Dean has a long road ahead of him there, and getting the machines secured should be job number one.

[Algorem]

23. Mother Jones put a couple letters on

http://www.motherjones.com/letters/2006/02/02_302.html

"Mr. Hackett was not quite ready for prime time, and it's lucky we all found out about it."

David Goodman's article missed a good bit of the reality that we witnessed here in Ohio. It wasn't just a matter of political big wigs forcing him out. Hackett lost support because of his angry and unfair attacks on Sherrod Brown. I met Mr. Hackett and said that I was inclined to support Brown because of his excellent service in the House, including his staunch opposition to the Iraq War, along with his support for women's rights, the environment, and progressive issues in general.

But I also wanted to hear Hackett's views as well. Instead of telling me anything about where he stood on the war in Iraq, or any of the other matters of concern to Ohio voters, he launched into a tirade against Brown---maybe he was angered by my support for Brown, or my statement that I too wished Hackett would run for the House so we could support both him and Brown. Whatever his motivation, he talked about Brown having been in office too long and being a part of what's wrong in Washington. He said that Brown could not win in the fall, but he could -- based on nothing more than self-serving conjecture.

I went away from my talk with Hackett quite disappointed, though not totally surprised. I have had some questions from the beginning about why, if he opposed the war, did he lead men into combat? And why did he return to it? Most of the progressive people I know, Democrats and others, would not voluntarily go to Iraq and fight in Bush's illegal, immoral war. But Hackett did, and we wonder why.

A few days at a meeting in Columbus of about 300 activist Democrats, Brown made a strong, polished speech in which he never mentioned his Democratic opponent. Hackett’s first words, by contrast, attacked Brown as having been in politics, government and Congress too long, thus becoming part of the problem. When he made the remark about Brown being in government all his life someone in the audience said, audibly but not disruptively, "So?" Then someone else said, "Attack the Republicans, not your opponent!" He seemed to get angrier than usual and began berating the "hecklers" in the audience. When question time came, I stood and told him we were not hecklers, but did not like him attacking a fellow Democrat who had devoted his life to serving progressive causes in Ohio and in the Congress, and that we hoped he would tell us about his views on the various issues....

[FreedomAngel82]

63. Simply amazing!

Does anybody know ANYTHING about Hackett? Funny how people (including myself I do admit) were quick to support him because he called Bush names and talked tough. Funny how now that he was running for the Senate he didn't talk about being against the war or anything. He is apart of the Iraq war veterans pac and they have republicans on there too. It'll be interesting to see who he supports from this group. So all he did was attack Brown? Simply disgusting. So those "rumors" about him attacking Brown on voting against the "Patriot Act" might be true.

[Kolesar]

24. So is Hackett in a rage now and retaliating?

Or is Hackett conspiring with gops and "retaliating". I really cannot determine that from Hesoid's text.

thanks for posting this, blm.

[blm]

28. I think that getting emotional can be seen as a mistake of amateur pols

so, I am inclined to see it as not deliberate on Hackett's part.

I remember how close Clark came to getting roped into that lie about Kerry as Chris Lehane was used to spread that rumor. Clark had enough savvy to be more wary. It's a mistake that's too big to take back once you make it.

[Kolesar]

31. So (a) rage, and not (b) collusion

Is that what your hunch is?

[blm]

33. Yes. Political inexperience plus instant fame can be an intoxicating

mix and the hangover hurts like hell.

[madfloridian]

39. Sometimes the politically inexperienced are not as jaded...

And can see things as clearly, or more so.

Don't get me wrong, I am sure the war crimes stuff originated with the right wing.

However, the party leaders asked him to run, then asked him not to run.

They are doing the same thing all over the country. They are picking the candidates for us.

[Kolesar]

42. Well, now you are revisiting the campaign

And I have done a few threads revisiting the campaign myself :hi: I think that there is a fair thesis that Paul Hackett was played by the gop.

[madfloridian]

45. I don't deny part of it was.....but he has a right to be angry.

At the party manipulation. If we don't get a handle on that, we will soon have party chosen candidates completely...only this time we will know it.

That millionaire Republican recruited in Florida to run as Democrat so he can finance his own campaign is still rich and will still for big business because that is who he is. He is a poor candidate, and we had two good ones.

[Kolesar]

47. Ohio has such a dearth of candidates. Remember Springer for Senate?

We were relieved when Eric Fingerhut stepped up in 2004. I have not been following these candidate recruitment stories to the degree you have.

[FreedomAngel82]

64. But he NEVER FILED to run

He was never a canidate in the first place!

[CTyankee]

40. Rove's instinct probably told him this about Hackett

Rove "got it" about what you accurately (I think) diagnosed as Hackett's problem. He must have figured that Hackett would take the bait and lash out against Brown. His plants probably was in an audience like the one you were in and they must have reported Hackett's thin skinnedness back to Rove.

This is so classic. You read in history how famed would be leaders get carried away with ego and a sense of their own ability to control destiny and someone brings them down. It is why the Greeks had this thing about hubris or "overweening pride."

Sigh. Read history. Learn lessons.

[RazzleDazzle]

36. Nah. All he's got is speculation based on flawed premises

[Kolesar]

38. Care to deconstruct it? We cannot read your mind from a 1-line post.

[blm]

41. Not to me - I saw how some in the Clark camp were mortified that they were

so close to getting used on the Kerry affair rumor. This stuff is REAL and it IS a tactic.

[madfloridian]

43. But this thread is not addressing the real issue that still faces us.

The way the DSCC and DCCC leaders jump into races and marginalize good candidates already there.

It does not address the fact that there is real true anger, not just by political novices but by many others....when they take over the decision process for us.

Maybe it will take a lot of polically inexperienced people like me to see it clearly and declare it wrong.

[Kolesar]

44. Hate going off topic, but Hackett was not ready to run for Senate

Scant experience, questionable temperament, did not know much about the issues (google up his response about nuclear). His position on the Iraq war was poison because he changed it. Even if he changed it for good reasons, Hackett was dead meat if and when the gops would eventually attacked him. I could just see it: Major "Flip-flop"

[madfloridian]

46. I have no opinion on him or Brown personally.

But we can NOT blame the GOP for everything. We cut our own throats too often.

[FreedomAngel82]

65. Have you not read anything?

1) Hackett was never a formal canidate. He never filed to be on the voting ballot!

2) He was going to attack Brown for voting against the "Patriot Act" when every informed person knows already that it's pure fascists bullshit.

3) He went on "Hardball" and said that Reid and Schumer wanted him gone because he's been vocal "against Iraq" where as Brown VOTED AGAINST THE IWR VOTE and has been against the war SINCE THE BEGINNING!

4) He took days to call back Stephanie Miller when she has been a big supporter of his and even campaigned for him.

5) He never talked about the issues from the MJ letter someone posted in an earlier post. All he did was attack Brown.

[madfloridian]

68. I thought it was Wilson who did not file properly.

If Hackett did not do so, could you give me a link, please.

Yes, I read things. I just came back into the thread to answer you, that I did read, but I saw it only this Wilson who did not file properly..

If I am wrong, I most sincerely apologize, but I do get offended when asked if I read things.

http://www.athensnews.com/issue/article.php3?story_id=23518

I have said my issue is with primary meddling, not with Hackett or Brown. I have said nothing negative against Brown, and I understand he is a fine fellow.

Now, show me where I did not read.

[blm]

48. It wasn't SUPPOSED TO - this thread is a heads up how Rove is working OHIO

and is not intended to be a widespread discussion on Dem leadership decisions. There are plenty of threads on that.

[madfloridian]

49. Ok, then I will leave the thread.

I thought since it was all tied together, I could post.

I am not trying to be difficult, I sincerely don't see how you can separate one from the other.

If all of you will put a tag on a post that it is ok for me to post in, I would appreciate it. I was told twice yesterday that I was butting into threads.

So give a signal pro or con, and I will be watching.

[blm]

52. Not that big a deal - it seems to me that knowing what Rove is up to

SPECIFICALLY in Ohio and on this particular matter should be of paramount importance. The other aspect gets plenty of attention here at DU, so it's not like it's been overlooked.

[madfloridian]

51. Check your inbox. I won't post on this thread anymore.

.

[blm]

53. why take it so far?

.

[PassingFair]

74. Check out my post #73, mad! It will jog your memory.

I wonder if Gibbs, Feighan and/or Jones are involved in this.....

[madfloridian]

130. Check your inbox, PF

:hi:

[OzarkDem]

66. Or the other issue

Allowing newly minted,inexperienced active Dems to be given help in running for congress or the US Senate who have no loyalty to the Dem party and very little history or background by which we can determine their political record.

This should teach us how incredibly dangerous it can be to let novices appear out of nowhere, raise lots of money online, get lots of support, then suddenly turn and become highly destructive to the party and its candidates when things don't go their way.

I'm all for opening up the system to create a Dem "farm team", but not allowing dark horse candidates to gain prominence in major races who we don't know or trust.

[sandnsea]

92. That is their JOB

That is what they're supposed to do, get people elected. Part of that is having primary discussions, circumventing problems, tallying up money across the country, doing surveys, trying to put it all together with a national platform that won't get in the way of important local races. It's not easy and voters who don't pay alot of attention to politics don't like ranters, no matter how much you personally think they do.

[Avalux]

50. I remember the dirty tactics he used against Richardson in Texas -

When Bush ran against her for governor here, Rove push-polled, and spread rumors that Ann's office was run by lesbians. One of the questions was "Do you want your governor's office run by lesbians?" There were a lot of other things too.

Rove thinks up stuff that gets emotional reactions from people. A mass marketing genius. Unfortunately, he's on the dark side.

[glitch]

54. Hardly a genius - just willing to do things most people wouldn't,

like appealing to the basest, lowest common denominator among us.

[FreedomAngel82]

56. Somethings that still get me though

I still am wondering some things with the Hackett deal though. Here they are:

When he dropped out at first it was a quiet and peaceful thing. People were upset but Hackett wasn't going after anybody yet. Than out of nowhere he starts attacking Reid, Schumer and Brown and saying they were the one's who pushed him out when they did no such thing. All they did was call his donors and probably gave them poll raitings for the area and maybe even asked them to encourage Hackett to run for the House seat. Hackett wasn't dissing Reid or anything like that.

Than after that he goes on "Hardball" and Ed Schultz show and starts dissing them. Stephanie Miller starts talking about this of course on the first day because she is/was a big supporter and even helped campaign for him once or twice. In the beginning he ALWAYS called her back right away but with this he took a couple of days to get back to her. He went on "Hardball" and Ed Schutlz before he went on her show when she campaigned for him and really promoted him to her listeners. It was really strange and quite rude.

Than on "Hardball" he talks about how Reid and Schumer wanted to "get rid of him" because of him being vocal against the war! WHAT?! Reid and Schumer were together when they closed the Senate! And Brown voted against the IWR vote and has been against the war since the beginning! That doesn't make any sense!

Than it was revealed by Hackett's staff (which a lot of them came from Brown's campaign from his Congressional race) that he was going to attack Brown for voting against the "Patriot Act" and intelligence matters in the 90's to say he helped cause 9/11!! And the staff said that he wouldn't go to some events. He claimed the staff put events on the schedule to go to without his approval and than when it came time to go to these events he backed down and didn't go. Does anybody know what type of events these were?

So my question is: what is the fucking deal with Hackett? And someone in another Hackett thread I remember posted an article from a Ohio paper where a staff member of the democratic party in Ohio said it wasn't any one of them and sounded like something Karl Rove would do.

[bklyncowgirl]

67. That's been my thought all along, Hesiod explains it better than I could.

This not only took out Hackett who might have been a stronger statewide candidate than Brown but made Brown a target of Hackett's wrath and thus Hackett's followers scorn.

Heckuva job, Karl.

[bleever]

70. Well, since you implored me, I did read it.

And I think you (and Hesiod) are right.

It's a blind frame. I.e., you set somebody up, without it being traced back to you. Even better, get it attributed to someone in their own party and foment discord and disarray. Classic Rove.


BTW: remember right after the election, the "bombshell" from an "insider" on how the votes were manipulated, and his ability to lay it all out? He called himself "Brad Menfil". Probably a coincidence, but it's an anagram of "blind frame".



Hey Karl: :P

[PassingFair]

73. MUST be Rove, 'cause the democrats would NEVER use sordid

..tactics!

Check out the "affiliated personnel" :puke:

Americans are ON OUR OWN! Call DFA or MoveOn if you want to work
for change.

http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527events.asp?orgid=42

Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values, 2004 Election Cycle
Web Site

Democratic group formed to promote the discussion of jobs and health care in the presidential race. The group ran an ad campaign targeting Howard Dean in key primary states. The campaign was controversial for showing an image of Osama Bin Laden while discussing Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience. It was also revealed that the International Association of Machinists, who endorsed Dean's rival, Richard Gephardt, had contributed $50,000 to the group. The ads were pulled before the requirement kicked in for the group to reveal who paid for them.

Affiliated Personnel:
# Edward F. Feighan, president (former Democratic representative from Ohio)
# David Jones, executive director and treasurer (former fundraiser for House Democratic leader Dick Gephardt)
# Robert Gibbs, spokesman (former spokesman for Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee)

Donors:
# Transport Workers Union ($20K), Machinists Union ($50K), International Longshoreman's Assn., and Ironworkers Union, among others
# Former Sen Robert G. Torricelli (D-NJ), $50K
# Bernard Schwartz (chair & CEO, Loral Space & Communications), $15K
# S. Daniel Abraham (founder, Slim Fast Foods), $100K

Budget:
# The group reportedly collected $500,000 through Dec. 2003

527 Activity:
Total Receipts: $1,000,000
Total Expenditures: $994,137
Note: This data is based on records released by the Internal Revenue Service on Tuesday, February 07, 2006.






An ad campaign targeting Howard Dean in key primary states. Shows an image of Osama Bin Laden while discussing Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience. The pro-Democrat group claims that it is not supporting any one candidate, but say they are focusing on the issues important to members of their organization. The ads were pulled quickly because they angered many union financial contributors and members of the Democratic Party.

P.S. The Unions WENT NUTS when they found out that their money had been used this way.

[blm]

79. And some union members were pissed that Dean got an endorsement that

he never earned while he was governing as a probusiness governor for 11yrs. and others who were their most active supporters got the shaft.

Dean's activist base coerced those union endorsements with their phonecalls and letter-writing campaigns. Please don't pretend that all is innocent from camp Trippi, when it clearly wasn't.

This particular issue in Ohio has Rove written all over it. You just WON'T see it because you don't want to get in the way of your preconceived views that your side is always innocent and everyone else is out to get you. As if never a dirty deed was done by the Trippi crowd.

Hell, Dean smartened up and turned on Trippi, and part of that was for his divisive tactics.

[PassingFair]

81. I WORKED with those "coerced" union people here in

Detroit, blm.

They were behind Dean and PISSED OFF when the unions pulled their support after Iowa.

Damn that "activist base" and their letter writing and their phone calls!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[blm]

83. That's YOUR crowd - I know plenty of union people who felt differently.

Am I a lesser Democrat because of that? No. And, I'll be damned if YOU are going to pretend that YOUR team didn't pull some evil crap when so many of us know the truth.

Had you put ALL of the candidates lifetime RECORDS side by side to see how they supported union issues as part of their governance Dean would have shown up near the bottom. To pretend otherwise is DELUSIONAL or a deliberate ignorance. He was good in some respects, but overall, his record ws probusiness, and he would be the first to say so when he was governor.

Dean is trying to get a unified party, yet some of his followers want to pick at scabs as if they never inflicted a few scabs of their own.

[PassingFair]

84. I'm not posting here to fight 04 all over again with you, blm.

I think we know now that party interference and skulduggery made for a winning
candidate in THAT elect....oh wait, it DIDN'T.

I would be hard pressed to think of a governor whose record
was NOT "pro-business" :crazy:

The Hobson's choices offered up by the financial string-pulling thugs IN OUR OWN PARTY
is what is costing us elections.

[blm]

87. Horseshit - the corporate money you claim made the decision is NONSENSE.

The CORPORATE MEDIA made sure to dry up Kerry's donations back in the fall by declaring his candidacy DEAD over and over again. That's why Kerry had to take out a loan on his house, or did you conveniently forget that while you make up your own storyline to suit your grievances? Kerry is one of the least-effected Dems by any corporate money. You don't rack up a record like his over 20 yrs if you're carrying water for corporations.

BTW.... why DID the CORPORATE MEDIA spend months OVER-reporting Dean's support on the ground in Iowa while UNDER-reporting Kerry's actual support there? And then those same media turned on Dean and make it seem as if it was all his fault for imploding?

So people like you will blame Kerry instead of them?

[PassingFair]

90. Yawn. They didn't over-report Dean's support...

Kerry's "support" began when the party apparatus cranked up in Iowa.

"Firehouses" anyone?

I don't particularly like being referred to as "people like you".

By the way, what's Kerry doing with the money LEFT OVER from his campaign?

Poor wittle Kerry had to take out a mortgage on his wittle house? Beh, this isn't about Kerry, it's about how the party is run and the candidates are hand picked.

I don't dislike Kerry, or Brown.

But I guess "you people" don't understand that.

:puke:

[blm]

94. You keep implying that Kerry was the corporate choice.

Don't pretend you don't.

And Kerry EARNED the endorsement of the firefighters because he worked for their issues for many years and supported their needs with legislation. Maybe Dean should have thought of that while he was refusing to negotiate with firefighters in Vermont.

You refuse to see how you contradict yourself - you make attacks as if the corporations wanted Kerry over Dean and Brown over Hackett and then act as if you said no such thing.

[FreedomAngel82]

114. See the post I made about Kerry's left over money

He couldn't and can't use it because of the laws! There those pesky darn laws go getting in the way again.

[karynnj]

170. Kerry WAS endorsed by the fire fighters

Since when have the "fire houses" been equated to the party apparatus. From all accounts, Kerry has always had the support of the fire fighters because he has been a friend to them over his career. It also might have been that they liked him better than Dean.

Why mock Kerry's bold move to mortgage his house at a point when his campaign was broke? The point people made in mentioning it was not that it was heroic, but that he would not have been in that position if he were the party's favorite candidate. Party leaders and the press acted in ways that dried up donations. Even with $6,000,000, he had less money to spend than either Dean or Edwards - if he would have lost Iowa and New Hampshire, he would likely have not raised more money and would have been out - with a debt he couldn't afford on his Senate salary.

Kerry gave a significant amount of the money to the DNC, the DSCC, and the DCCC. He also has given a huge amount of money to various 2005 and 2006 candidates. Gore held onto his leftover money (I think slightly less than half of what Kerry really ended up with) until 2004.

[sandnsea]

93. Or run bimbo smears

Why is it only the Dean people who can't get past anything that happened in the primaries??

Dean had all the press, all the money, all the momentum, support of plenty of higher ups in the party, the whole schmole. The one thing he didn't have was votes. It's that simple. Dean lost because people don't like ranting lunatics who shoot off at the mouth without thinking about what they're saying. Same reason Paul Hackett was losing to Brown. You can whine and stomp your feet all you want, but that's just the truth of it.

[PassingFair]

96. Smears:

"The campaign was controversial for showing an image of Osama Bin Laden while discussing Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience."

Remember THIS WAS NOT ROVE!

I'm not whining OR stomping my feet.

Nor am I a bimbo.

[sandnsea]

97. Neither was the Bimbo Smear

It was Chris Lehane, and let's not forget, Wes Clark DID make comments, even though Kerry people have been decent enough to let it slide. And let's also not forget, Kerry immediately came out against that Bin Laden commercial and it was down within days. I recall Howard Dean saying alot of things during the primary that he had to apologize for, people stealing Kerry call lists, lies and commercials about Kerry and ag bills, all sorts of things. That is what happens in primaries. Some people really need to start looking in the mirror.

[PassingFair]

98. Again!

I'm NOT talking about Kerry or Brown personally!
I'm talking about organizations like
"Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values" et. al.

which are Democratic funded smear machines that work
towards swiftboating our own.

"This is what happens in primaries" ???????

This is why the democrats have a problem winning.

[sandnsea]

99. Riiight

Funny how Dean people never care about what's been done to any candidate except Dean.

[PassingFair]

100. I care about what was done and IS being done to Hackett

AND Cegelis.

And Morrison in Texas, for that matter.

[sandnsea]

103. Exactly

But you didn't care when it was being done to Kerry, or Brown, or the Democrats that you don't like.

Even though you don't even know whether anything was DONE to Hackett. That's the whole point. The only person I've heard talk about any pictures, IS Hackett himself. And another thing we know for certain, Hackett is attacking Brown, point blank.

But somehow when you smear and destroy the Party and Dem candidates, it's okay. Even though there are as many rank and file Democrats who don't like Howard Dean, not that thrilled with Hackett, but we DON'T MATTER to you. You run right over top of us with your smears and lies, and then wonder why we turn around and vote against your candidates.

[PassingFair]

105. Am I running ads against ANYONE?

Sorry that you have to put up with anyone who disagrees with you.

"Smears and lies!" ????????? :crazy:

[sandnsea]

112. They are smears and lies

The Brown campaign has categorically denied having anything to do with the Hackett pictures and rumors. Anybody continuing down that line, at this point, is spreading smears and lies. Continuing to connect people to that Osama ad who weren't connected, are also smears and lies. Particularly when you turn around and deny the things that were done to those same Democratic candidates.

[FreedomAngel82]

118. And Reid even told about that and said

the same thing that Hackett said. They looked at the pictures and it wasn't even of Hackett. It was someone else.

[ScreamingMeemie]

125. Here's the thing PF, sandnsea isn't worth your trouble.

This poster has a maniacal anti Dean stance that isn't worth any educated, sane person (such as yourself) trying to deal with. All attack...no substantial evidence. I learned a long time ago to just let him/her go off...and move on to worthier debaters. :hi:

[sandnsea]

109. wrong spot

.

[FreedomAngel82]

117. Did you care about what they did to Kerry and Clark's military records?

[ScreamingMeemie]

126. FWIW, PassingFair wore her feet to blisters working on Kerry's campaign.

Only to be disappointed in his inability to "have our backs". How did I know you would jump in here?

[FreedomAngel82]

151. And your proof he isn't "having your back" where now?

Kerry isn't like some politicians who shows everything to the public he is doing. And you're damn straight I'm going to jump in here. This is a message board, isn't it? Or am I not allowed to post unless you give me permission?

[OzarkDem]

119. Hackett left the race

Nothing is being done to him. Its time to move on.

[Kolesar]

102. That wasn't very nice

[sandnsea]

104. But true n/t

[PassingFair]

106. Not true.

I care about LOTS of candidates.
I care about the future of the democratic party AND
the future of our country.

You are the one who is stuck in 2004...

[sandnsea]

111. Post #73

You drug the primaries into this.

[Kolesar]

107. This is surely off topic. You have made your point. Now can we get back

...to business here?

[sandnsea]

110. Off topic?

Excuse me, but slander IS the topic and while Dean people would like to believe they're the only ones who are ever attacked, it simply isn't true. All candidates get attacked, and it is just as often by Republicans who know it'll pit Democrats against each other. That's the entire point of the OP. And up pops this poster to prove it, by dragging the 2003 primary into it

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. You shouldn't expect the posters of rabid attacks to be nice.

:hi:

[FreedomAngel82]

116. So what are you talking about????

You're really confusing in this thread.

[FreedomAngel82]

115. And yes about that

I do like Dean and I like how he's running the DNC. I think it's a perfect place for him and he seems to be doing a good job so far. If you go to c-span.org type in "John Kerry" and look for him on "Road to the White House" from August 8th, 2003. He's in Littleton, New Hampshire and towards the end he talks to a group of reporters. One reporter asks him about Dean and you can tell the reporter is trying to bait Kerry into bashing Dean and mentions Dean on the cover of "Time." Kerry comes out and says he thinks they shouldn't be bashing each other but should be focusing on their individual issues etc. and he tells how he hasn't even formally come out to say he's running yet.

[ScreamingMeemie]

128. Shame on you for posting the truth again, PF...and irritating the

usual suspects. :yourock:

[madfloridian]

129. Passing Fair, here's the video from C-Span to match your #73

http://c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=david+jones&image1.x=22&image1.y=11

At 2:57 in. David Jones speaks. He says they ended their PAC in Feb..after Howard Dean left the race. They show the Osama ad, and he is proud of it. Only cost him 14,000 I think he said. Lovely man. He says nobody had used Osama in an ad, so he thought they would. He says we went Democrat on Democrat attack...our 527. He goes into detail on the Osama ad.

He says fortunately for "us", Dean said the world was no safer with Saddam captured....David Jones said he agreed with Dean but he should not have said it. "Our ad caught fire that week"

He just keeps on being insulting. He said Dean made a mistake by saying even Osama deserved a free trial. He said they ended the ads before they had to disclose.

He says McMahon with Dean's campaign called them a drive by shooting..and David Jones says yes that is what we were. We tried to affect the primary. Had about 20 donors who funded the whole thing, up and down in a few months...very successful.

Near the end about 3:20 he says Dean was so far ahead our concern was "taking down Howard Dean."

Feel free to share.

[blm]

101. I was hoping Hesiod's post would provide needed perspective to further

a greater truth and be part of the unity agenda of the DNC.

Sorry it missed that goal.

[OzarkDem]

120. Give it time, blm

People will come around, and begin to recognize the signs of Rove's work in Ohio. This won't be the last we see of it.

BTW, wasn't it amazing how much news coverage Hackett got for his Iraq war stance, yet Brown has received almost no media coverage for his early, strong and vocal opposition to invading Iraq.
IMHO, that's another hallmark of a Rove rat-f*cker campaign - the amount of media attention given to the divisive message compared to the Dem candidate's message.

[madfloridian]

122. This is about blaming the victim...

It is not about Hackett or Brown per se....it is about people and the party included refusing to own up to dirty tricks played.

Instead we are blaming it on Rove, and saying Hackett was too much of a novice to notice what was happening.

This is far far from being about personalities...it is about tactics used constantly by our own. It needs to be addressed.

If you wonder why some get angry, so many of us know the blaming the victim stuff all too well.

[PassingFair]

124. Thank you, mad!

I brought up the bin Laden commercial escapade only because it was an example of dem
dirty tricks.
It was an incident that I was VERY aware of and knew who had been responsible.

It seems a bit naive of us to blame Rove for what we
KNOW can be politics as usual within our own party.

Sorry that the smell of old primary meat brought out all
the old dogs to tear at the rotting carcass of the FAILED ELECTION.

[blm]

133. The SPECIFIC RUMOR used could be traced to Rove - just like affair rumor.

And THAT is what the Dems were victims of, just like Clark's camp was about to be the fall guy on the affair rumor.

[PassingFair]

134. What about these specific RUMORS. Who spread THESE?

Oh, we KNOW!Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values!
And they waited the MAXIMUM time allowed before disclosure because they didn't want anyone to know who had produced and financed the ads.

PURE ROVE, RIGHT?

WRONG. :puke:


Americans for Jobs, Health Care & Progressive Values
2004 Election Cycle
Web Site

Democratic group formed to promote the discussion of jobs and health care in the presidential race. The group ran an ad campaign targeting Howard Dean in key primary states. The campaign was controversial for showing an image of Osama Bin Laden while discussing Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience. It was also revealed that the International Association of Machinists, who endorsed Dean's rival, Richard Gephardt, had contributed $50,000 to the group. The ads were pulled before the requirement kicked in for the group to reveal who paid for them.

Affiliated Personnel:
# Edward F. Feighan, president (FORMER DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE FROM OHIO)
# David Jones, executive director and treasurer (former fundraiser for House Democratic leader Dick Gephardt)
# Robert Gibbs, spokesman (former spokesman for Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee)

Donors:
# Transport Workers Union ($20K), Machinists Union ($50K), International Longshoreman's Assn., and Ironworkers Union, among others
# Former Sen Robert G. Torricelli (D-NJ), $50K
# Bernard Schwartz (chair & CEO, Loral Space & Communications), $15K
# S. Daniel Abraham (founder, Slim Fast Foods), $100K

Budget:
# The group reportedly collected $500,000 through Dec. 2003

527 Activity:
Total Receipts: $1,000,000
Total Expenditures: $994,137
Note: This data is based on records released by the Internal Revenue Service on Tuesday, February 07, 2006.


An ad campaign targeting Howard Dean in key primary states. Shows an image of Osama Bin Laden while discussing Dean's lack of military and foreign policy experience. The pro-Democrat group claims that it is not supporting any one candidate, but say they are focusing on the issues important to members of their organization. The ads were pulled quickly because they angered many union financial contributors and members of the Democratic Party."

P.S. The Unions WENT NUTS when they found out that their money had been used this way and FORCED the ads to be pulled. Shades of misuse of donations ala Abramhoff, IMO.

[OzarkDem]

135. Doesn't apply here

and you know it. And you still offer no proof of a smear campaign. Typical Rove.

How much does Rove pay these days?

[PassingFair]

136. Why doesn't it apply here?

It directly refutes the supposition that only ROVEMAN could
be behind a smear campaign aimed at a dem.

Are you implying that I am on Rove's payroll?

:crazy:

[blm]

137. Who spread the rumor that Kerry voted for Bush's taxcut? That Kerry was an

unaccomplished senator with little record in the senate? That Kerry was Bush-lite?

Please stop acting as if YOU are the big BOO-HOO VICTIM of everything - Dean and his side ATTACKED MERCILESSLY and the amateurs all cried when you finally got hit back at the end.

Gee, PF, can you explain how the other candidates FORCED Dean to perform badly in the last few debates?

There's a little thing called accountability - and a little thing called karma you may have heard about in your travels.

[PassingFair]

138. I am talking about a FIVE TWENTY SEVEN

set up by party apparachniks to tank another democrat.

Not performance in debates.
Not stump speeches.
Not politicking.

I'm talking about undercover, underhanded campaign tactics that
were used by THE PARTY.

Not an individual politician.

There's a little thing called reality, you may have heard about in YOUR travels....

Look over there...IT'S ROVE! BOO...made you look!

:crazy:

[blm]

139. Tough - You want to whine about a 527 when Dean, himself, started rumors

about Kerry that ALL OF YOU REPEATED throughout the primary? Don't BS me - I battled enough of the lies about the taxcuts and that lies that Kerry never did anything notable in the Senate for over a year AND IT WASN'T CLARKIES or Kucinich or any other supporters who were spreading the lies.

You BOO-HOO about a 527 that had very little impact while you RUN AWAY from the facts of the Dean camp's constant LYING about others and Dean's pisspoor performance in the last few debates - PLUS you can't accept the fact that the CORPORATE MEDIA was OVER-reporting Dean's support on the ground for months while UNDER-reporting Kerry's support for months to hurt Kerry's fundraising.

Y'know, DEAN himself, no doubt regrets any excesses he went to during the primary, just as Kerry regrets any that his camp went to - too bad that some of the supporters are such amateurs that they can't stop COMPLAINING about the hardballs thrown at them.

You wouldn't even see me mentioning what happened in the primaries on a stand alone post - it's only in reply to the BS whining that's surfacing here. I don't want the lies to get any more roots than they already have.

[PassingFair]

141. Get over it, blm!

"that ALL OF YOU REPEATED". ????? :crazy:
Thanks for putting "lies" in my mouth. :crazy:

Why do I have a mental picture of you frothing at the mouth?

I used the 527 as an EXAMPLE of the tactics
the PARTY went to to defeat one of their own.

Not ROVE, party apparatchniks.

Stop yelling "fire" when the problem is a flood
coming up from the basement.

[blm]

142. Get a mirror.

You keep working AGAINST Dean getting a unified party for 2006 and I'll keep working FOR his goal - which is what this thread was supposed to be about.

But, no doubt, you won't see the irony in that bottom line reality.

[PassingFair]

143. Get a life.

.

[blm]

144. I obviously had a full one that took advantage of comprehension skills

while studying the actual historic record of this country.

[PassingFair]

146. Oh look! There's ROVE!

NaNaNaNa BOO BOO.

You win, Poopy Pants. I'm off to SPREAD LIES ABOUT JOHN KERRY! :crazy: :crazy:

Hahahahahaha

:rofl:

[FreedomAngel82]

153. So you're not even going to address the other person's words?

Wow, your post is real childish.

[PassingFair]

158. How do you want me to "answer" this?

"I obviously had a full one that took advantage of comprehension skills

while studying the actual historic record of this country."



It makes no sense whatsoever, and it is NOT a question..

:rofl:

[FreedomAngel82]

150. Hackett didn't become a victim when HE dropped out

He should've stayed involved. Than you MIGHT have a "victim" stance if he stayed in and actually fought.

[Kolesar]

123. And we have all seen how the media reads from the approved, gop script

On "Lardball" with Chris Matthews Monday, Matthews gave Hackett huge amounts of time to talk about his "antiwar" candidacy and played it up as if "the powers that be" in the Democratic Party would not let such a candidate win. Hackett was hardly "the" antiwar candidate. Then Matthews gave the former candidate the rest of the show to bash the Democratic candidate who was in the race. Cannot get Sherrod on the issues, so they try to get the scant 300,000 viewers to the show to hate Sherrod. Those gops are so transparent to me.

[FreedomAngel82]

154. Riiiight

Hackett is "the" antiwar canidate when he thought we should stay and clean up the mess back when he was on Bill Maher's show. And Brown actually voted against IWR and the "Patriot Act" yet Hackett was going to use that against Brown and show he's weak. :eyes: Riight. And Hackett is a democrat?

[WildEyedLiberal]

140. Why is it that the same people come into these threads....

... are the same people trying to sow division and distrust among Democrats in many, many other threads of a related nature?

Why are some here so willing and eager to blame Democrats (especially Democrats they don't personally like) instead of Republicans? So eager to spread ill will and discord and foster negative opinions against good, solid Democrats - like Sherrod Brown?

Why are these same people unable to acknowledge any accountability on their part for anything, and must always seek to place the blame on a boogeyman like the DLC/DSCC/DCCC/etc?

It's the same people, all the time, and they constantly spread division and rancor and try to leech away support for Democrats. The only Democrats acceptable are those explicitly endorsed by a few of their pet PACs. Everyone else gets drug through the mud.

Why are the same suspects here time and again willing to help Karl Rove?

It makes you wonder...

[PassingFair]

145. Right....I'm a PAID ROVE OPERATIVE!

:rofl:

I hope you have other things to "wonder" about...

"The only Democrats acceptable..."????

You guys tell me whose TURN IT IS so I'll know who to vote for.

:puke:

[madfloridian]

147. Me, too. I am a Rove Operative.

:eyes:

Paid? You get paid?

[WildEyedLiberal]

148. I never said you were paid

But when you trash Democrats ad nauseum, you're doing his work for him, and if you're not getting paid for it, then you're really missing out. I mean, why not get paid to do what you've been doing in this entire thread? I'm sure the RNC has cash to spare.

I don't really care what the motives of such people who slander all Democrats save those endorsed by your favorite PAC are - the end result is the same. The GOP wins.

[madfloridian]

149. Well, she better not get paid unless we all get paid.

.

[WildEyedLiberal]

152. It could be lucrative.

If Brown loses, it'll be in no small part due to the massive volume of crap flung at him by disgruntled Hackett supporters here and elsewhere. And if Brown loses, Hackett doesn't win. DeWine and the GOP do.

I'm sure DeWine loves the effort that many on the left are willing to make on behalf of his candidacy by tearing down his opponent. Ripping Brown to shreds will help DeWine more than a 25 dollar check to his campaign will.

I really think some here want to see Brown lose just so they can wrap themselves in their own make-believe vindication and say "I told you so." Of course, what they'll be cheering is another term for Mike DeWine. So you tell me. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

155. But see, I have not criticized Sherrod Brown.

I have heard he is a good guy, and I feel he is as surely a victim of the party leaders as is Hackett.

So whose tool does that make me?

I never supported either, had no choice of the two. Bashing people indiscriminately is wrong.

[WildEyedLiberal]

156. This goes back to the actual OP, before the threadjack

I have never seen you bash Sherrod Brown, so I wasn't speaking specifically of you.

However, there are plenty of people who are. You've seen them too. I've seen the many posts here that try to spread discord by making this a false "DLC vs. progressives" issue. When informed that Brown is far from "DLC" and Hackett is in fact centrist, the tactic changes, and the insinuation becomes that Brown was "chosen" because he was an "insider" whom "the party establishment" is "more comfortable" with than Hackett, the "maverick outsider." These posts will do nothing but engender resentment among Dem bloggers for Brown. And then, back to what BLM was talking about in her OP, you have those who keep spreading the rumor that Brown swiftboated Hackett - how are threads like that going to do ANYTHING but help DeWine? When a sizeable minority on a liberal blog is committed to taking out Brown, DeWine can only benefit. It sickens me to see Rove's work done for him on places like DU.

Check my posts, you'll see I'm no Harry Reid fan. ANY criticism of the Hackett fiasco should be directed at Reid and Schumer, although quite honestly, Hackett himself chose not to run, so that only goes so far. Also, yes, one can be disappointed about the outcome of this and about Reid's interferece, BUT the time has come to throw our support behind Brown. He's a great Dem and DeWine is vulnerable and if the grassroots throws itself behind him, he can win. This is our imperative. The Hackett wars have been fought for over two weeks here, and I think it's time to put it behind us and get Brown elected.

[PassingFair]

159. OK, I GOT it...

Sit down, shut up and vote for who we tell you to.

Gotta go pick up my future imperial guard draftee from gymnastics.

One last thing:

"Brown was "chosen" because he was an "insider" whom "the party establishment" is "more comfortable" with than Hackett, the "maverick outsider."

Do you REALLY disbelieve this statement?

Put DOWN the crack pipe!

[WildEyedLiberal]

160. Mike DeWine thanks you

That you are attempting to spread ill will about Sherrod Brown, one of the most liberal members of Congress, is telling.

The GOP thanks you for your service.

[PassingFair]

161. And the imperialist war machine thanks you for yours.

.

[WildEyedLiberal]

162. ROFLAMO!

Brown is one of the most liberal members of Congress and fought against Bush's invasion 4 years ago.

You're either trying to help elect Republicans on purpose, or you're minb-numbingly fucking clueless. Either way, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. "Progressive" my ass.

Thanks for proving that you couldn't care less about real issues or actually getting good Democrats - like the VERY liberal Sherrod Brown - elected.

[PassingFair]

163. Sherrod Brown could be Jesus H. Christ...

and I would still be against his "entry" into this race when he
had PROMISED not to enter it.

Your language should be alerted on, but you are just
a wild-eyed *sshole, so I'll let it go.

Your acceptance of the "ends justifying means" mentality makes YOU the 'puke-like character here, not me.

[WildEyedLiberal]

164. Such mental gymnastics

BTW, it's certainly not against DU rules to say fuck. Sorry to spoil your schoolmarm scolding. You'll excuse me if I roll my eyes. :eyes:

The martyr act is wearing thin, by the way. Hackett is no more or less special than any other candidate who decided to pull out before a primary. The constant need for some here to make everything into an act of persecution speaks volumes, as does your eagerness to accuse anyone who calls you on it of supporting "imperial war." McCarthyism much?

Have fun with your Democrat-hating circle-jerk... I'm sure you'll be thrilled when DeWine gets elected. By God, that'll show 'em!

[PassingFair]

165. By the way, it certainly is against DU rules to make the kind of

personal attacks that you are doing here.

Because I DARE to suggest that our insider party politics
are less than moral you accuse me of McCarthyism?

And I'M the one using MENTAL GYMNASTICS.

Go goose step your way back to whomever you take
your orders from and tell them to get their heads
out of their ASSES. People are WATCHING.

[Kolesar]

166. "goose step" ? "imperialist war machine " ?

You're disgusting.

[WildEyedLiberal]

173. I'm pretty sure implying I'm a goose stepping freeper is worse

More faux martyrdom coming from the Democrat-haters... business as usual...

[karynnj]

168. Politicians can and do change their minds about running

Hackett could have stayed in the race, but opted out. Until the last date to file, people can run. By the way, your language towards her is worse than her to you.

[madfloridian]

169. Being called a Rove operative is worse.

Sorry but this often goes over the line.

[karynnj]

171. My reading of her points to PF was that

Brown is currently being smeared as having spread rumors. He has denied this. I don't know anything about Brown except that he has a good record.

At this point, Hackett, of his own volition, dropped out - and he is being given a national platform with which to smear Brown. How many other Democrats have been given the time that Hackett has? He is being used at this point.

WEL said that people keeping this point alive are doing Rove's work and she has made clear in a few posts that she is not saying they are ROVE'S operatives. (She also said she didn't think highly os what Shumer and Reid did - a point I would agree with. I really think that Reid has been a lousy leader lately.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

172. But saying I'm a goose stepping war loving imperialist doesn't

Okay....

Keep on making my point for me.

By the way, I find it supremely interesting that you neglect to respond to any posts in which I am civil to you, and focus only on posts in which you pretend you are being attacked, so you can wail about how I'm insulting you. My post 156 was a reply to you in which I explained the entire point I was making in this thread. You chose to IGNORE IT and come down here and keep perpetuating this stupid pissing contest.

Interesting indeed...

[PassingFair]

157. Yeah, I dislike ALL democrats.....

:crazy:

[Algorem]

131. columnist - "Hackett's exit wasn't all others' fault "

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/elizabeth_auster/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1140860210137270.xml&coll=2

Sunday, February 26, 2006
Elizabeth Auster
Plain Dealer Columnist

When Paul Hackett dropped out of the U.S. Senate race in Ohio, he didn't just disappoint his supporters. He left many of them to conclude that their worst fears about politics were entirely justified.

That may be the saddest legacy of Hackett's ill-fated Senate run.

Hackett ensured that his fans would draw dark conclusions when he attributed his departure, at least at first, to party leaders who pressured him to leave the race. The same leaders who had begged him to run last summer after Sherrod Brown and others announced they wouldn't, he complained, ended up abandoning him when their buddy Brown -- a seven-term congressman -- changed his mind and forced a primary.

Equally troubling, Hackett said, big-name Democrats had been quietly urging his campaign donors not to give him money...

[NuttyFluffers]

174. well, outside the fun lil' flame war, this is entertaining speculation

either way, whether it was rove or not, the question is why did the party leaders, who are supposed to be far more poiltically savvy, not step in and smoothe things over before it got to this state? if this was such an obvious bait tactic, by such profound 20/20 hindsight :eyes:, then why did all people involved (not just, as his complainers love to note, *inexperienced* hackett) fall for it? you'd think there'd be someone somewhere inside that entrenched machine savvy enough to figure it out and undo the damage? hmm?

this whole thing brings up more damning questions about the "experienced" political people involved than anyone else. so, we are supposed to believe that the inner circles have been compromised with infiltrators (none too surprising - this is politics), who can act beyond the candidates wishes -- and cause damage beyond what the candidate can undo by simple honesty and forthrightness, and all party leaders, who are supposed to be our wise council, can be played for fools again and again by an MO we've supposedly all seen before, should already be wise to, and should immediately believe in this case. yeah, uh-huh, and our response should be "well, geez, played for fools again, might as well get back inline and put all our trust in the same elite group that keeps getting played so badly." i see, what genius.

yeah, um, remind me to not ask some of you for help in problem solving. apparently critical analysis can only be applied to those in the 'out' group. such cliquishness and myopia is very poor for true investigation, and even worse for true internal improvement. and at this stage we need honest assessments of our community for internal improvement, because obviously things are not going well nationally.

[Kolesar]

175. Things were "smoothed over" when Hackett quit; he uncorked a week later

..and went ballistic on Hardball with his accusations. (Hardball, Ed Shultz, Stephanie Miller)

As for cooler, smarter people advising Hackett: one of his staff was an unprincipled lowballer named Bryan Clark who used to seed slanderous rumors about the "other candidate" when he was working on the Coleman for Governor campaign: Ohio Beware: local hacks have infested the blogs

A kindly note: some capitalization would have helped me sort out your post.

[NuttyFluffers]

176. apparently it wasn't smoothed over, was it?

if strange stuff was happening, and neither you nor i know if his accusations are baseless or not, there should have been some definite intervention to make sure things were out in the open and no bad blood stayed. about one of hackett's staff, doesn't surprise me, it's politics. is it good? no. do i believe it was a maliciously calculated choice by hackett? no. everyone i know has secrets -- and i'm sure many i'm not privvy to. wholly unsurprising and not really damning to me. if he did such bad tactics by hackett's malicious request, then that'd be another story -- but that's not the story, is it? and notice the same figures seem to make their rounds in an apparently very incestuous world of politics. that's why these veterans running was such an infusion of energy. stifling that with strange flip flopping, back room horse trading doesn't do much to help any of us utilize that rejuvinating influence. if people who are supposed to be getting my back (even if they aren't openly going to support) aren't being upfront with me, at least in private, i'll be damned if i feel obliged to let it all slide. that's why i see the "uncorking" completely normal, and in fact healthy, for our current stage of politics. it's time for this slimy shit, by whomever's grand plan, to stop -- and the best disinfectant is sunlight. the least that could be done is pull aside the drapes together to show there's no there there.