DC Burning

[H2O Man]

As most DUers are aware, Mr. Fitzgerald noted that he has approximately 250 of the previously "missing" e-mails that came and went through the Vice President's office. A number of DUers have asked about the value of these e-mails.

I would recommend watching one of my favorite movies, "Mississippi Burning." It's about the civil rights activists Schwerner, Goodman, and Chaney being murdered and buried with a bulldozer in racist, violent Mississippi. James Chaney had been tortured.

I was reminded of that when reading that in the December 5, 2003 edition of the Financial Times, a senior White House official was quoted as gloating, "We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one."

Miracles do happen: they just take a heck of a lot of hard work. In this case, my friends, the Truth, like Lazarus, has arisen from its place of burial.

Things are good.

[H2O Man]

1. A GREAT article ....

.... the stuff of articles of impeachment for our VP:
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/022406Y.shtml

[Baggins 9]

14. It's only just begun

The Bush administration will undoubtedly go down in history as the most conniving we've ever seen. I fear the worst is yet to come.

[H2O Man]

15. Mr. Baggins.

Good to see you here.

[Lugnut]

61. Hi Baggins!

:hi: Welcome to DU. :)

[spuddonna]

71. Welcome, Mr. Baggins!

Have a drink? :beer:

Hmm, maybe it's too early for that? :donut:

:hi:

[mzmolly]

76. Welcome Baggins 9

:hi:

[robertpaulsen]

105. Hi Baggins 9! Welcome to DU.

Good to meet a friend of H2O Man.

Sorry to get this thread late, but thanks to H2O Man. Things are looking good indeed!

[stop the bleeding]

80. question

We know that Fitz has Fibby by the balls based on the vernacular in the Fibby indictment. So based on what we know about WHIG and what we know about the new emails. This = conspiracy, in order for a conspiracy you need to have multiple people. Also it is pretty evident now that Fitz, the GJ and Judge know that Plame's status was also covert.

So regardless of what happens to the Libby case now doesn't Fitz/GJ have a whole new set of charges that the can file indictments for Fibby and the other WHIG members, especially Darth Cheney?

Secondly can't Fitz use this as additional leverage on Fibby and other possible WHIG members?




In another development in the leak case Friday, U.S. District Judge Reggie B. Walton said another administration official, who does not work at the White House, also spoke to reporters about Plame Wilson. This individual, according to sources close to the case, works at the National Security Council.

Who is this?

[H2O Man]

92. Mr. Hadley .....

a man with a fine singing voice.

[stop the bleeding]

96. So

is the rest of WHIG also facing charges or do yo think that there are other members cooperating?

We know that based on reports lately that Fitz has been focusing his investigation on Cheney, what are the chances that Hadley's cooperation will land other prominent members of WHIG behind bars? ie: Rove and Rice in addition to Cheney?

Also what will Hadley's cooperation mean for Fibby? How likely do think that Fibby will be singing here in a little bit, based on Hadley, the new emails - his goose being cooked from the indictment ect...

[Me.]

100. Don't Forget The Worm

Wurmser is said to have been turned. He didn't work at the WH, had his own little intelligence office, was/is a neo who has/had strong ties to Ledeen.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. Glad to see Cheney

had nothing to do with outing Plame or slandering her husband. :sarcasm:

Well, at the least, Fitzgerald can charge Cheney with lying to investigators (remember Martha Stewart).

[H2O Man]

3. The e-mails

were correctle described by JL as "explosive." The significance, in terms of the wider conspiracy, should not be undereastimated.

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Of course, I'm still hoping for the best

that Fitzgerald will indict all of the WHIGS for multiple charges.

However, I do believe he will take the path of least resistance and if he can put these bums out of business by charging them with obstruction of justice and perjury, he doesn't have to open up as many 'secret' cans of worms.

[annabanana]

33. Your picture reminds us..

that nothing stays buried forever.....

[druidity33]

78. knapper?

or collector? I have a piece that i have been itching to have someone look at... i think it is a stone fletching tool, though a friend thinks it's a hatchet head. If you have an eye for these things, PM me and i'll dig it out and take a few pics.

BTW, thank you for you continued insight on DU, you're one of the few here who's posts i never miss.

Peace and goodwill.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

84. has to be VERY sharp, with a clean straight edge to be a flesher...

That's what you meant, right? usually they are made from bone, stone ones take skill to use. Hatchet heads will show damage to the edge (usually)

Post some pics, if you dig it out. (ha! I made a joke!)

[druidity33]

95. not flesher...

Fletcher. It is a tool used for straightening/making arrows. It is shim shaped with two grooves and a notch worked into the stone. It is OLD. Nearly everyone i've talked to agrees it is a stone tool but no one has been able to agree on what it is. I'll post a pic or 2 when i've had some coffee and can find the thing.
Peace

[Viva_La_Revolution]

97. cool! I've seen a few, but they look nothing like a hatchet head...

hense the confusion. May I suggest you start a thread in the Science forum? You should get some great responses. :)

[druidity33]

101. here's a pic or two...

and yeah, i'll bring this over to the science forum... anyway:



maybe that's too big...
ugh, sorry dial-uppers...
i'll only do one.
peace

[Viva_La_Revolution]

102. looks like an abrasion stone, maybe...

I'm doing some research... (I love this stuff!)

When you post in Science, please add the measurements and where you found it (that should be a big clue) :)

[leftchick]

4. how do we know they are "the" e-mails?

I can not help but think they are not the ones Mr. Fitzgerald is looking for but are decoys. I hate being so cynical. :(

[shadowknows69]

5. Well whatever Fitz is going to do

He'd better make it quick. WWIII is scheduled for 30 days from now isn't it?

[H2O Man]

7. It is good to

question everything. And it would be difficult to NOT be cynical in this era.

However, e-mails do not only show up in one place. What you might compare the recnt "discovery" here to, is the amazing recall that Mr. Rove had when he believed he was going to be indicted for lying.

The amazing thing is that Fitzgerald made mention of them in public. As you likely noticed, on the top of the recent court documents that kpete and I have posted on DU:GD, there is a "gap" in the numbers on Fitzgerald's filing, and Team Libby's. There are numerous sealed documents being filed. I am going to explain why in greater detail, hopefully today.

These e-mails are real. There are still a few missing pieces .... almost like 18.5 minutes of tape.

[leftchick]

9. I just finished Jason's article

It sure does have me swinging back into the hopeful mode. I can't wait to read your piece and I agree about that 18.5 minute gap.

<snip>

However, the emails say otherwise, and will show that the vice president spearheaded an effort in March 2003 to attack Wilson’s credibility and used the CIA to dig up information on the former ambassador that could be used against him, sources said.

Some of the emails that were turned over to Fitzgerald contained references to Plame Wilson's identity and CIA status, and developments related to the inability of ground forces to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq after the start of the war in March 2003.

According to sources, the emails also contained suggestions by senior officials in Cheney’s office, and at the National Security Council, on how the White House should respond to what it believed were increasingly destructive comments Wilson had been making about the administration's pre-war Iraq intelligence.

[Nothing Without Hope]

85. Yes, that's a vital point - why did Mr. Fitzgerald mention them in public?

He's well known as an investigator that holds his facts very close and runs leak-proof investigations. So there is a REASON why he spoke about these 250 pages of emails that have been "discovered" by the White House. Whatever his reason is, it's surely part of a strategy to get the evidence and cooperation that he needs in his investigation. He's applying pressure - and time will tell to what purpose.

Comey did the country such a major service when he appointed Fitzgerald for this investigation.

[FreedomAngel82]

69. But why would they damn themselves?

This is a group who believes they are above the law, so why would they damn themselves?

[EstimatedProphet]

82. You answered the question yourself

They believe they are above the law. They are so arrogant that they believe they can break the law and brag about it, and no one can do anything.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

6. But but but Mr. Cheney is keeping me safe at night from my

civil rights.... now what I'm gonna do.... great article, kicked and my sleep should be that much deeper now... :)

[H2O Man]

8. Cheney will indeed

keep you safe. The proof is in the pudding. Many have noted his friend looked a lot like Usama bin Laden. Cheney's experience in Vietnam took over. Reflexes on that man are those of Joe Louis in his prime.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. Now I'm scared again.... oh bother.... n/t. :)

[Maddy McCall]

11. Mississippi Burning is a movie that too many people value for its...

supposed historical content. Yes, some of it was right, but much of it was wrong.

The only reason the Philadelphia Three murders were solved is because the Klan goofed up and people ratted on each other.

The FBI gave not a shit. They did no hard work in trying to solve the murders. Some of the Klan scoundrels were unable to keep their deeds to themselves, and that's the only reason the identity of the murderers was revealed. The FBI was not heroic during Freedom Summer.

[TacticalPeek]

52. Got that right.

I dig the 'DC Burning' and 'truth unearthed' imagery of the OP, and H2O Man gets a deluxe poetic license from me.

But that movie is way off on the wrong foot, with FBI heroics that never happened - sometimes quite the contrary in fact. And the real heroes, the local people and the workers, get treated like cardboard props, etc.

For a remedy, to see what it was really like then, I very highly recommend Danny Glover's Freedom Song.

[H2O Man]

93. Correct.

I agree with Maddy McCall about the real life events vs the movie. Like many movies, it is not historically accurate in ways beyond what would disqualify it for being considered a documentary. I remember that J. Edgar got upset when Martin told the media that the FBI in the south were too close of friends with the police, who often wore blue uniforms by day and white sheets at night.

I also agree with you that "H2O Man get a deluxe poetic license" on this one, at least. Besides the DC burning and truth unearthed, the name Chaney should be remembered as noble, while Cheney's is disgraced.

[H2O Man]

12. I read the news today,

oh boy, about an unlucky man who made the grade ...
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060225/POLITICS/602250427/1022/rss10

[H2O Man]

13. And though the news

was rather sad .... well I just had to laugh ....
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-libby25feb25,1,7650718.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

[Baggins 9]

16. saw his photograph

can't always believe what ya see.

[H2O Man]

18. Not always ...

but sometimes, one can ...

[Nothing Without Hope]

90. I'm glad to see your face. n/t

[H2O Man]

17. I saw this photograph ....

[Baggins 9]

19. now where was this picture

when we had our dart board up

[H2O Man]

20. Near the stereo .....

as you may recall.

[Baggins 9]

21. glad

to see we finally hooked up here H2O man. I got things to do though so, keep me posted and we'll talk again soon. PEACE

[leftchick]

26. Welcome to DU Baggins 9

:toast:

[Laelth]

27. Welcome to DU!

Nice to have you with us. :patriot:

You have been highly recommended.

-Laelth

[kohodog]

39. Welcome Baggins!

A friend of H20 Man is a friend of mine (if you accept, of course).

[Beetwasher]

48. Welcome, Brother!

Any friend of Mr. H2O Man is a friend of mine!

[ralps]

57. Welcome to DU Baggins 9

:hi: :loveya: :hug: :pals: :woohoo:

[bleever]

58. Welcome to DU, Baggins 9.

Seems we are cursed to live in "interesting times".

:hi:

[ClayZ]

63. Welcome Baggins 9!

Mr Zimmerman said....

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'.
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

[malaise]

64. Welcome Baggins

I love H2Os posts so you must be good people :D:

[FreedomAngel82]

70. Welcome to DU

[havocmom]

81. H2O Man posts NOW with Baggins 9 for brighter brights!

H2O Man posts are ALWAYS must read DU for most of us.
And now, new and improved with the fantastic additive: Baggins 9! Get your government cleaner with this new improved combo! The one-two punch dirty pols hate most!

Mr Baggins 9, it is indeed a pleasure to see you here! Welcome aboard. We are grateful you joined us.

[Nothing Without Hope]

86. Welcome to DU, Baggins 9!!! Any friend of H20 Man ...

:hi:

[SpiralHawk]

24. Now we know how many holes it takes to fill

the vacuum of honest, competent leadership in the BushCo Cabal of Corrupt Cronies

[Me.]

42. The Irony Is Delicious

The leaker is not allowed to leak the name of the other leaker. And we should bear in mind that while the other source didn't work in the WH that doesn't mean he wasn't/in part of the administration.

On edit after reading Truthout: NSC. Hadley? with his "I am not the leaker a smokescreen? But why, haven't they retired him?

[coeur_de_lion]

22. Good news, H2O Man

I hope something comes of it.

We've all known for years, now I can't wait for the rest of the world to learn all about it.

[H2O Man]

36. Yep.

I think something is coming .... it's kind of like that slow train that bob zimmerman sang about a few years back.

[H2O Man]

23. Regarding Mr. Baggins .....

I would hope that DUers could take a moment to say "hello" to Mr. Baggins 9, and welcome him to DU. Mr. Baggins 9 is my closest associate in matters political and cultural. We have worked together on many projects over the decades.

[coeur_de_lion]

32. Hello Mr. Baggins, and welcome!

[merbex]

75. Mr Baggins 9 you are very welcome here and I hope you post often

:hi:

[AntiFascist]

77. Welcome to DU Mr. Baggins....

I wonder if this all "connects" in the UAE. kbr.

[Nostradammit]

94. Welcome to DU, Mr. Baggins,

You are most welcome here.

What took you so long?

Delayed in Mordor, I presume?

[H2O Man]

25. "The WaterMan Paper"

Do any of you oldies remember this?
http://h2oman.blogspot.com/2005/01/waterman-paper.html

[H2O Man]

28. Any predictions

on when VP Cheney's "health concerns" will cause him to step down?

[wovenpaint]

34. I've been predicting

at the end of February 2006, at the latest. But, was feeling doubtful the last week or so.
But, you postings have given me new hope!! Thnaks, H2O Man and welcome to Baggins 9
:hi: :toast:

[Stephanie]

45. Imminently!

He's actually not all that healthy! He's ballooned up since the shooting - he's huge and bloated. His MD estate is ready and waiting. I bet Lynne is picking out the china as we speak. He'll have a health incident and resign before the year is out, or before he is indicted, whichever comes first.

Welcome to Mr. Baggins!

[ClayZ]

65. 2 tsp natural apple cider vinegar in warm water

each morning... would help with that. Add 1 tsp honey and it almost tastes like lemonade.

It might give him a spiritual awakening too. hahahaha!

[Stephanie]

46. So these were turned over by the WH

So has Rove turned on Cheney? Has the WH decided to throw him overboard? Is it Civil War?

[Beetwasher]

49. The Good News Is

There'll be more time for quail hunting. That is, if he stays out prison.

[leftchick]

55. one and a half years since you wrote that

I hope it does not take anther one and a half for the final act. And damn were you ever spot on! Not that I doubted you. :)

[Nothing Without Hope]

87. Wow, from mid-2004! That was before I joined DU and it's new to me.

Thanks for this! I'll most certainly read it.

For those who haven't checked, here's how it starts:

This paper examines the possibility that Vice President Dick Cheney orchestrated the "leaking" of CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity to the news media in the summer of 2003, in order to accomplish three goals.
These include (1) to punish Joseph Wilson for challenging "16 words" in President Bush's 1-28-03 State of the Union address; and (2) to intimidate other sources from publicly challenging the White House's version of events involving the "war on terrorism" and the US invasion of Iraq. Both of these goals are well-known from numerous reports on this White House scandal.
The other, (3) is that VP Cheney was attempting to derail an investigation that Plame may have been involved in at the time that her identity was exposed. This third potential goal has not been the subject of any major media attention.

(snip)

You're looking pretty prescient, H2O Man! (That's nothing new.)

[insane_cratic_gal]

29. So is there is deep throat in the WH?

I guess I have to go read the article.


Edit:NM I read the article. Right there in the first sentence! :blush:

30. loved Willem Dafoe and Gene Hackman in Mississippi Burning

they were excellent. And they just recently convicted Killen, because of a dedicated journalist, Jerry Mitchell.

[wicket]

35. K & R

:kick:

[JuniperLea]

37. I'm still puzzled about how they could get away with saying

the emails were missing, accidentally dumped or whatever they claimed.

No system back-ups? Every company I've ever worked for, 2000 employees or ten, all had a system back up daily. WTF? The WH doesn't do this?

[catmandu57]

38. I just hope that snarlin dick doesn't cheat the hangman

I can't help myself from feeling that these cockroaches have their holes all ready to scurry into, while the rest of us perish or lead horrible survivor lives after the nukes go off.

Whatever is going to happen is going to happen very fast now, this is going to be a dangerous spring I fear.

[Me.]

40. It Seems The Family Jewels Are Made Of Paste

This is a lovely development. I was already cheered by the court proceedings yesterday and by Shuster's report.

Cheney resigning? I say in the fall, when the Aspens turn.

Welcome Baggins 9. Would that be B. Baggins 9? And hey there Lion Heart, it's always a treat when you show up.

On edit: To say welcome to The Mr. Baggins 9

[H2O Man]

43. It is

"thee Mr. Baggins 9."

[seemslikeadream]

41. Prophesy fullfilled

Marcus Garvey's words come to pass,
Marcus Garvey's words come to pass,

Ain't got no food to eat,
Ain't got no money to spend, wo-oo-oo
Ain't got no food to eat,
Ain't got no money to spend, woo-oo-oo

Come, little one and let me do what i can do for you
And you and you alone
Come, little one, come wo-oo-oo
Let me do all i can do for you and you alone, woo-oo-oo

He who knows the right thing
And do it not
Shall be spanked with many stripes,

Weeping and wailing and moaning,
You've got yourself to blame, I tell you.
Do right do right do right do right do right,
Do right do right do right do right do righ
Tell ya to do right, woo-oo-oo
Beg ya to do right, woo -oo- oo

Where is bagawire, he's nowhere to be found
He can't be found
First betrayer who gave away Marcus Garvey
Son of satan, first prophesy,

Catch them, Garvey old

Prophesy fullfilled
Catch them Garvey, catch them woo-oo-oo
Hold them Marcus, hold them woo-oo-oo
Marcus garvey, marcus woo-oo-oo


BANDULU: bandit, criminal, one living by guile
BANDULU BIZNESS is a racket, a swindle


BOASIN TONE: Swollen penis or testicles


CUT YAI: to cut your eye at somebody is a very common means of expressing scorn or contempt

NUH? "Is it not so?"

SEEN?: Do you understand?

YA NO SEE IT?: you know?

MORE TIME: see you later

I DAWTA H2O Man: I sister H2O Man

ONE LOVE: expression of unity

JAH BLESS

[koopie57]

47. that photo of Cheney

is he getting one of those "reach arounds"? I have often heard the phrase but was not sure what it meant.

[KoKo]

44. Welcome Baggins 9....and thanks H20 Man for keeping at this.

:toast: and :hi: welcome!

[Me.]

50. Mr. X

Has been a busy man. Have most of us overlooked the obvious? Who worked hand and hand with Libby in making the case for war? Wolfowitz! The writer of the linked piece has his own opinion.

Plamegate: New Clues About Bob Novak's Anonymous Source Email


“There are still many unsolved mysteries in Plamegate. The biggest? We still do not know the identity of the original leaker who disclosed Valerie Plame's status as a CIA agent to Robert Novak (Reporters have referred to this person as the mysterious "Mr. X").”cont…

I had previously thought that the original leaker, Mr. X, was Stephen Hadley, since he was up to his eyeballs in the White House pushback on Joe Wilson, and was the recipient of the Karl Rove "didn't take the bait" email regarding Rove's leak to Matt Cooper. Also, a few news sites (Raw Story and the London Times), reported that Hadley was Woodward's Plame source, and Hadley refused to deny that fact (although an anonymous White House flack issued a denial on his behalf). Unfortunately for that theory, however, Hadley was clearly in the White House at that time, so if the defense attorneys are correct this theory is wrong.

So who is it? Here is my analysis:

1. If it's not a White House source, that takes it out of the White House Iraq Group, and pushes it towards their allies in the CIA and State Department who had access to the information at that time as well.

2. Since the source was a "Senior" Administration Official, I believe that would take it out of the realm of low level aides and up to the Secretary and Deputy Secretary level.

3. Since the leak was clearly part of the White House's pushback on Wilson, it would have to be someone who was coordinating on that pushback.

So who could it be? My money is now on George Tenet. Tenet was Cheney's source for Valerie Plame's identity (As we learned from the Libby indictment and Murray Waas's subsequent reporting), so he clearly had that knowledge and knew it was important to the Administration. Also, at that time, Tenet was heavily involved in the White House effort to shift blame for the Niger Uranium SOTU disaster -- issuing a statement in which the CIA took the blame for the providing the White House with faulty intelligence. Moreover, if Tenet were Novak's source, that might explain why Novak ignored the instruction from CIA spokesman Bill Harlow not to disclose Plame's identity in his column. You certainly don't have to listen to a CIA PR flak if you have contrary direction from the CIA's Big Kahuna.

So what do you think -- was it Tenet? Do you agree or disagree with my analysis, and why?

http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2006/2/25/11758/1212

[Catrina]

83. That's an interesting theory ~ it fits the 'WH official, but not in the

WH' claim we have heard. Still, of all those involved, Tenet was the most likely to understand the consequences of leaking the ID of one of his own agents. Why would he risk committing such a crime? While he appears to have had a lapse of judgement for a while regarding going along with the WH to 'gain access' according to 'Dead Wrong', no one has ever said that he was not conflicted. Iow, he was not a 'true believer' in the need to go to war, mainly because he knew the 'evidence' wasn't there.

Colin Powell's aide, Wilkerson, again in 'Dead Wrong', told how Colin Powell made Tenet sit behind him when he made his UN presentation, basically admitting that he was not happy with the 'evidence' but since he was going to go along with it, he wanted Tenet there to show that he, Colin Powell, had the back-up of the CIA and would not take the responsibility alone.

To me, that said that neither of them believed in what they were doing ~ yet did it anyway, with Powell demanding cover for his own role.

What I'm trying to say is that, while Tenet was willing to go along up to a point, I'm not sure that he was so addicted to being part of the inner circle at the WH, that he would have been willing to risk committing an act of treason to be there. But it's possible, I suppose.

Your point about Novak ignoring the advice of the CIA spokesman to not reveal Valerie Plame's identity, because he had the okay from the Director, makes sense though. I always wondered about that. That he acknowledged being told that revealing her name would 'hurt her', yet did it anyway. Your scenario does give an explanation for that.

How about Bolton? He went to see Judith Miller while she was in jail ~ didn't he have access to the information also? Remember at his confirmation hearings Democrats wanted documents which showed him asking for information about individuals, I don't remember if they were CIA agents, and Condoleeza Rice ordered the State Dept. not to hand them over? Why would she want to hide these documents from the Senate? He could have received the information through different channels and then passed it along to Novak and to Judith Miller. I wish I could remember the dates of his inquiries to see if they fit into the timeline. This refusal held up his confirmation, AIRC. He has yet to be confirmed ~

I know that we've been told about Judith Miller's meeting with Libby, which was the earliest mention of Plame's identity to a reporter, but that doesn't mean Judy didn't already know, from Bolton, eg. I'd still like to know why he visited her twice while she was in jail ~

Tenet is in big trouble, if you are correct. He is giving no interviews to the press, which could indicate that his lawyers have instructed him not to. But he is writing a book, I believe ~

And most mysterious of all is why Novak, the only reporter who actually did print the information he received, has had the least amount of legal trouble, as far as we know ~

[Me.]

98. Tenet Is Not My Theory

and I quite agree with you about him not being a true believer. My personal belief is that it was connected to WHIG, and could be Bolton, Fleitz, Hadley, Hannah or, as in the question I posed, Wolfowitz.

[Donailin]

51. Waterman

If it ever crosses your mind, you'd be a welcome addition over at Kos. You have the stuff it takes to be a frequently recommended diarist, I'm certain. You can simply crosspost as well, since this is your base. I only say this because I think a writer like you can never be over-exposed, there's 80, 000 RU over there and their reputation goes without saying.


Having said that, great thread, as usual.

[H2O Man]

59. Thank you.

I frequently post essays on my blog, then here. But I would be interested in posting other places, too. I think that we are heading into an interesting phase of the Plame scandal (as well as the neocon/AIPAC spy scandal), and I might have a few things to offer that will be of interest to progressive democrats.

[Catherine Vincent]

60. I don't think DUers would be too keen on sharing H2O Man.

:-)

Btw, Glad that Baggins 9 is posting now. I would welcome him but he's been here since 2004. Welcome anyway! :-)

[H2O Man]

62. A man of few words.

Mr. Baggins 9 is a quiet man, who often has been known to sit in the shadows and watch. Little escapes his eyes and ears. We are the best of friends, and have been on some adventures over the years. Probably better he is quiet!

[Donailin]

106. A lot of DU'ers

are Kossacks. I could be wrong, but I think we're all on the same side. Information -- interpreted in intelligent articulate ways that H20Man is a master at -- needs to be disseminated.

[Catherine Vincent]

110. Oh, I know we're all on the same side.

I was just funning ya. I visit there often myself. :-)

[blm]

53. What happened then is one of the reasons I'll always cut Lieberman SOME

slack even when I disagree with him intensely.

Lieberman went down South to canvas for black voting rights at a time when it was very dangerous for a young Jewish man to do so. He could easily have become one of those buried bodies.

Thanks for keeping up on Plame, H2O.

[TacticalPeek]

54. Interesting. I'd allow a little slack for that. It was very dangerous.

Where'd he work?

[FreedomAngel82]

73. Oh wow

I didn't know that. Pretty brave!

[Nothing Without Hope]

88. I think John McCain wasn't always what he is now, either. Such a sad

waste when people who know better lose their way, lose their principles as they have.

I don't intend to cut Liebermann any slack because his statements and voting record have done a great deal of damage and he MUST be removed from office.

Maybe he can find himself again if he spends some time away from all the rush and temptation.

[Catherine Vincent]

56. "Things are good."

Those three words.... Thanks Waterman! :-)

[FreedomAngel82]

66. I hope you're right

The thing that gets me is why would they turn these documents over when they know it'll damn them? Especially since they believe they are above the law. So what's the deal? Did they do this or someone else in the White House or what? It's just so confusing.

[H2O Man]

68. Well .....

the White House had not turned them over. Gonzales had said some contained information that was so highly classifies it could not be released; other information was "missing in action."

Then the Libby case began to be heard in a series of pre-trial meetings, phone calls, letters, and filed motions. From the numbers on the top of the recent court documents that kpete and I have posted here on DU, we know that there are "gaps." Other things are happening in court, and through the court.

These "other things" have to do with what documents the prosecutor has to make available to the defense. The federal judge has an authority that Fitzgerald, who is representing the executive branch, does not have in the judicial branch. We might benefit from looking back to the lessons of Watergate: that an executive in the White House may attempt to withhold documents from a prosecutor, but when the federal courts said to turn them over, Nixon's team knew they would either have to, or openly defy a court order. Nixon couldn't afford to defy the federal courts. In fact, in order to try to protect something "bigger," Nixon was willing to up the tapes.

Put this in context with Sandy Berger's statement to Wilson, found around page 6 of Wilson's book: the only reason the White House was admitting any error on the yellow cake statement was because they were trying to hide something bigger.

[FreedomAngel82]

74. That's a good point

I wonder who turned over these Emails. Wouldn't it be funny if it was Harriet Miers?

[Nothing Without Hope]

89. Not "THEM," just CHENEY. Either they want to push him out

of power, and/or they want him as a scapegoat to shield Bush, Rumsfeld, etc. from all criminal blame, and/or they intend to go to the newly packed Supreme Court for a ruling that says Bush and Cheney can do anything the hell they want, so the Fitzgerald investigation and all subsequent checks/probes become moot.

[donco6]

99. Why they turn over documents:

Usually, it's because the side requesting them already HAS them, they just don't have authorized copies. So when the request comes in, it's something like, "Copies of memos dated 9/11/01 entitled, "Lack of Preparation for Bin Laden Attack Could be Really Bad". The defense knows the prosecution already has the memos, and if they don't officially fork them over they'll be nailed with obstruction. But they try to deny they have them, or that they're confidential, blah blah. It's all a game.

[burythehatchet]

67. Sith Lord Cheney meets his demise

Yes, things are getting good.

[upi402]

72. what's that I see ahead in the distant fog?

is it hope?

I wonder if Fitzgerald will go into history as a key player in restoring our republic from these corporatist criminals?
Sometimes, in historical events, it is a case of the right person in the right place. This man may have been in the place where greatness walked in.

I have no specific religious bent, but I'll hold a thought for Fitz.

[stop the bleeding]

79. I spotted this last night at 9pm EST in a Forbes article see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=510464&mesg_id=514077

Walton denied a defense request to stop Fitzgerald from filing information that only the judge can review, such as strategy memos and classified information that he wants withheld from Libby's legal team. Walton said he needs to see what Fitzgerald is withholding from the defense to ensure the prosecutor is making the correct call.

The defense was told that the White House had recently located and turned over about 250 pages of e-mails from the vice president's office. Fitzgerald, in a letter last month to the defense, had cautioned Libby's lawyers that some e-mails might be missing because the White House's archiving system had failed.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/ap/2006/02/24/ap2552509.html

[H2O Man]

91. "....regime survival

is the ultimate priority of most systems -- we just don't know it in our own countries, yet."
-- George Galloway; Mr. Galloway Goes to Washington; page 45

The White House/administration's ultimate priority, right now, is regime survival. Mr. Cheney no longer fits in. He knows that. But he doesn't want to spend time on trial or in the pokey.

[Uncle Roy]

103. The honorable way out?

As you said:

Mr. Cheney no longer fits in. He knows that. But he doesn't want to spend time on trial or in the pokey.

Timeline, per Leopold's article:

Week of Feb 6-10: missing emails "discovered"
Week of Feb 13-17: missing emails turned over to prosecutor

Add one more data point:

Saturday Feb 11: Cheney has a hunting accident.

If the emails are that "explosive" (and we have no reason to doubt this), then Mr Cheney must have been in a pretty desperate state of mind for the past few weeks. Given his current age, his current state of health, and his current extremely stressed mental condition, isn't it reasonable to speculate that he might at least have considered suicide?

Added on edit:

And if he did consider it, and actually tried it (on a hunting trip, in the hopes it would be covered up somehow as an accident), isn't it also reasonable to think that he'd botch the job, and shoot someone else instead? Maybe he was interrupted by his friend, coming up behind him: "Dick! What are you doing!" "Oops!" "Blam!"

Idle speculation, I know. If these people were more honest and open there would be less of that...

[zippy890]

108. Interesting timeline,

I had similar thoughts about cheney's hunting accident - not suicide, but under enormous stress, he tries to 'get away'- drinks too much - he was drunk when he shot that guy.

He's going down, and he knows it. I hope it continues to be extrordinarily humiliating for him. He has done more to harm our country and the world than anyone in recent history.


BUSH & CHENEY TO THE HAGUE FOR WAR CRIMES

[stop the bleeding]

109. Yeah I was noticing the time line as well and was thinking a stress/

alcohol theory, glad I wasn't the only one.

[lovuian]

104. The truth no matter how hard you try to bury it rises to the top

Lies just eats it self....you have to tell another and another and another...

Whats going on with these guys they have lied so much they forgot what the truth was...

[H2O Man]

107. As Martin often said,

"Truth crushed to earth will rise again."

[Me.]

111. K

[Baggins 9]

112. Thank you for warm welcome

I haven't yet responded to enough topics to start my own, so I will say thank you to all the people who gave me such a warm welcome here. H2O Man is one of the most intelligent men i've ever met. He has taught me a great many things about life as well as politics. I am no wheres near the caliber of speaker (or writer) that he is.I hope you're all not to disappointed. We jokingly refer to ourselves as the Castro-Guevera or MLK jr.-Malcolm X, Sitting Bull-Geronimo duo.You get the picture? He's the brains and the front man, I merely sit back in support and protection. I will comment from time to time and maybe even post an opinion or two, I just didn't want the good people at DU to get the wrong impression of me merely because I know H2O Man. Thank you again and I look forward to reading all the interesting comments here.

[Just Me]

113. I admire him, greatly. Glad you're here!!!!

:hi: I'm also grateful I had the opportunity to catch this thread (had been away for a few days).

Welcome to DU Baggins 9!!!

[Peace Patriot]

114. Well, well, well, a gathering...

I am reminded of a JFK quote, as he sat down to a dinner with a gaggle of Nobel Laureates: " I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered at the White House - with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."

----------------

Speaking of JFK quotes:

"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."

A whole bunch of them at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/john_f_kennedy.html

[H2O Man]

115. I have a small paperback

book that came out in 1965, called "the Kennedy Wit." (It's actually the "expanded version" of the 1964 version.) It has the first quote you use above, and a number of other JFK classics. It sounds like there is going to be a big storm in the northeast today, and so now that you have reminded me of how much I enjoy that book, I'll read it again.