Another Way to Look at It.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

I read a lot of bitter posts on this board about the fools who voted for Bush, how they deserve what they get, fantasies about spitting in their face, never letting them forget it, and all that admittedly satisfying stuff.

But in my opinion, we need to rethink this approach. These deluded folks are, indeed, asshats, with their heads up their collective booties, but you know what? They are OUR asshats. Oh, some are surely evil and beyond redemption. Mostly those are the ones at the top, looking to fill their own treasure chests. But the majority are everyday people who through ignorance, lack of intelligence, cultural factors, lack of opportunity, lack of discernment, misplaced trust and optimism are being exploited, used and abused. The Bad Guys have them whipped into a fever pitch of fear. These are folks who grew up learning about the Greatest Generation, the justified World War II, and then either lived or read about the US humiliation in first Korea and then VietNam. September 11 satisfied something for many people because it put us on that footing with the Greatest Generation: a justifiable war, a reason to pull together as Americans. That is heady stuff. And GWB and his minions are pulling them along like fish caught in a net.

Now, more than ever, we need to remember that we are Americans and these people are our countrymen. If they are having the wool pulled over their eyes and we SEE it, then we owe it to them to fight for them. They need our discernment and our FREEDOM FROM FEAR. They need us to stand up and say "This is wrong and we will right it." The lost of freedoms we face are not just our own.

So when you see the annoying idiot in the pickup with the W signs all over it, remember he's a human being like you are, and an American like you are and don't think of him as the enemy. Think of him as the yet-to-be-converted. We will never move this country progressively to diversity and social justice if we do it from a perspective of hate, contempt and discord. Instead of writing posts about how you shot down a freeper, let's work on getting to know the freeper and listen to them. When you listen to someone, they think you are a genius. Listen, listen and listen some more. It takes time. You won't do us any good by one-upping a misguided Republican. But if you develop a trusting relationship and keep asking questions and keep listening (which can be done so convincingly online), soon enough your views will be listened to and change can begin. This includes crazy old uncles, parents, and obnoxious brothers in law. They are the reason why we can't stop fighting. WE are all going to be all right because we see the truth. But these folks are headed for disaster and are going to hit hard and we need them all under this big tent we call the Democratic Party.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. If you have read through this, I really appreciate it. And I'd really appreciate not getting any "I don't care, I hate the bastards and want them to die" response flames. These are just my thoughts, and we all have to answer to our inner wisdom..and this is mine talking.

[leftofthedial]

1. okay, after I spit in their face, I'll give 'em a big ol' hug.

but the asshat with the wastikas all over his SUV is NOT a human being like me

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. Okay, I'll go with that.

And I agree, swastikas are over the line. Hopeless.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I think you are right

You know, back during the Civil War, Lincoln would visit the wounded soldiers in the hospitals. Once he was going into a ward to comfort the men when an aide told him they were rebels, and he didn't need to bother. His answer was something to the effect that they were humans too, and was it wrong to show them a little compassion when all they had done was the best that they knew?

If we wish to have compassion in this country, we must show compassion. If we want justice, we must show justice (which means listening to both sides of things and weighing in with thoughtful answers). Some say that ends justify the means. I don't, for the means used can so corrupt one's ideals that the end sought is never attained. Hatred, in my experience, is destructive, and serves no good end.

[annabanana]

7. "all they had done was the best that they knew"

I hear you.
Those who know not, and know not that they know not....

[Mythsaje]

4. I'm with you...

I've been saying similar things for a long time now, and is the reason I wrote the "Dear Average Republican" letter.

I think the bad guys have managed, through their media controls, their religious affiliations, and through the deliberate under-education of the masses. It's deliberately fostered ignorance, and I don't really blame the poor and uneducated for their ignorance.

[mitchtv]

5. that's a luxury reserved for those who are not actively

being persecuted by them. When the hostility ceases, and I am a first class citizen, i will be more than charitable.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Well, I'm a woman

and I do feel a certain persecution by, particularly, the religious right. And I guess if I lived in Iran I'd feel it there as well. Women have never been first class citizens, although we've made some strides lately.

[liberal N proud]

6. I can't forgive some of the asshats that I know who voted for bu$h

Many of those that I know still believe anything that has an "R" attached to it or anything that bu$h/cheney or KKKarl say via FAUX news.
Yes there are some who can be redeemed but we must do so while reminding them that they are responsible for the place this nation is at now and it is on their shoulders that the future rides.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. I respect your feelings

but here's how I would handle it if I were the person you reminded that I am responsible for the place this nation is at now.,

I'd probably just say, well, screw it, then. If I'm to blame because I voted the way I thought was best and I turned out to be wrong.... just screw it! Defensiveness is not a productive mind frame.

And maybe, really I didn't go far enough in my OP. Because that whole "some who can be redeemed" is kind of the theme I was taking. But in retrospect, I think I am trying to say (obviously inartfully) that we need to provide social justice for everyone, even those who CAN'T be redeemed. Because that is, basically the essence of social justice. You should get it whether you deserve it or not. Social justice is for everyone, whether they know they need it or not. And because we do have a bit more discernment and can see the machinations that others can't, we can't afford to indulge in "I told you so's."

This might be elitist thinking and perhaps officious, but it is kind of like raising kids. When they smash the car even after you told them to slow down on that curve, it really doesn't help to get in their face with I told you so's. It is a wise parent who can avoid that, and I think a wise influencer of people as well.

The basic quesiton is, what are we after? Revenge? Or progress?

The answer drives everything.

[newswolf56]

8. Well said. I think we should reserve our hate for the party officials...

who are in on the con and the corporate fat-cats who've hired the politicians as their goon squad of the mind -- not the everyday jacks and jills who've been turned into marks and caught up in the scammers' nets.

People vote against their own interests not because they're evil or stupid but because that's precisely what they've been taught to do by ever-more-dumbed-down public schools and ever-more-tarted-up corporate media: total subversion of the American Dream hidden behind Britney Spears come-hither cleavage. (The old Romans used the same tactic; they called it "bread and circuses.")

Maybe for starters and in the cause of truth-in-governance (and surely for as long as the corporations remain in control), we ought to replace that ever-more-bogus invitation on the base of the Statue of Liberty -- "give us your tired, your poor" -- with something more appropriate to the carnival-barker atmosphere of Imperial American politics: "Step Right Up."

Meanwhile the OP has the right idea. Therefore k/r :kick:

[electron_blue]

9. I agree, and if "they" want us split so we can't even talk to eachother

The Bushies are more vulnerable as long as we can manage to somehow talk to one another.

[Ksec]

10. 8 yrs of Clinton bashing kinda pissed me off

I would have a hard time doing what you wrote about. Maybe if I see some rethug who is genuine and realizes how bad he fuked up I could avoid spitting in his face, but no promises.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. Actually, it is the Clinton bashing that opened my eyes

to the level of partisan hatred. I remember seeing this awful video my uncle gave me and it stated authoritatively that the Clintons has murdered MANY people in order to get into power. It was so obviously trumped up and lying... and I know that being human, now that we're out and they are in, we indulge in the same rather satisfying behaviors. But my concern is that it's time we realize those behaviors don't help our cause.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. Good advice, Grannie. I'm sure that we all know someone who

succumbed to the constant lashing of fear, fear, fear, and supported Bush when he invaded Iraq and voted for him, too. I know and work with a lot of people like that. They are good people at heart, but they believed the lies and half-truths that were splashed all over the papers and TV about the need to go to war in Iraq. They were sure that Saddam had WMD's pointed at us and wouldn't hesitate to use them. And if they weren't sure about Bush, they were positive that Colin Powell was being straight with them.

Now that things are in such a mess, most of these people have gone suddenly silent. It's not easy for most of them to admit that they fell for the falsehoods that they were bombarded with, but many of them are reaching the conclusion that they were purposely misled to promote Bush's legacy and feed his ego. They are coming to their senses, but if we try to browbeat them into admitting they were wrong we risk alienating them and right now we all need to be pulling together if this country is ever going to be whole again. We should welcome them back and put the bad feelings behind us.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

14. If you were a glutton for self-punishment

and watched CNN and MSNBC and God forbid, Fox all day long, it wouldn't take but about a week before you would need a tranquilizer.

If it bleeds, it leads. And if it's scary, even better. It is a constant bombardment of how everything has changed since 9/11. Terror, terror, terror and more terror. War and more war. Kidnapping, rape, tsunami and Katrina. Now of course some of this has to be reported, but do we need to watch every little briefcase blow up all day long, all the time? It keeps the nation at a fever pitch. And if you have even a tad of paranoia (and a lot of us do) well, then they GOTCHA!

[Arkansas Granny]

15. I was a glutton for self-punishment, but I got my news from

different sources and made up my own mind instead of just accepting the pre-digested "facts" that Bush and his administration tried to shove down our throats. Many people don't have the time or the inclination to do much research.

[sandnsea]

16. Problem with that though

Some people watch that because they really do care and want to be informed. If you're watching 3 different news channels, and the 6:00 news, and even browsing through your local newspaper; then how can you not know what's going on??? That's what we're really up against, why would anybody who pays that kind of attention to world events be convinced that ALL of it is intentionally wrong. You sound like a loon when you tell people that not only can they not trust corporate news, they can't even trust the AP.

[neweurope]

17. Grannie, you should get up that soap box more often.

I hate those folks with a passion... But I do know that you are right. And I do know that the only hope is compassion and love. It's just so hard... ;)

But I know it's the only way.

-------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. You know what?

It is really only hard in the abstract. It's easy to hate them when you think of them as a "type." But when you are face to face with one (sounds like I'm talking about snakes or something) you realize you have a lot in common. Like starting with...you are both mammals with opposing thumbs. If that is too difficult, back down to the fact you are both carbon-based organisms.

Which reminds me, I don't much care for snakes, but I have had a few in my classroom as visitors and also I live in a very snakey area. I decided I was going to hold a rat snake once. It was about 3 feet long and rather slender. I couldn't bear to have it wrap around my arm and crawl all over me, so I had its owner curl it up and put it in my hand.

I covered the coils with my other hand and he got very still because he liked the warmth. And you know what? I felt him BREATHE. I was moved to the point of tears. Sounds stupid. Of course I knew they had lungs, but when I felt those little lungs moving in and out, it changed something. I was able to let him climb up around my collar. I held that snake a lot that year. Mostly it was good, but sometimes he'd be snaking across my neck and some ancient part of my brain would scream 'SNAKE'!!!! And I'd have to consciously calm myself by remembering his little lungs breathing.

I'm not quite sure what the analogy is here, but it's a nice story anyway.

[neweurope]

26. It IS a nice story and I understand perfectly.

I'll try and keep your snake in mind when I have difficulty again.

:pals:

-----------------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[freeplessinseattle]

27. yes, it is. great snake analogy

I don't know if I'd ever feel ok with touching, much less holding a snake, but now I am more open to the idea and can see even having affection for a snake after reading the words "he" and "little lungs" "he liked the warmth", poor little guy, that's all he wants, is to survive and be comfortable.

[SmokingJacket]

20. Most of us who bitch and vent about them here are much nicer

in real life. I can't speak for everyone, of course, but I bet that most of us are very civil and are not going around alienating republicans and calling them stupid/evil/sheeple/etc. like we do here.

My own family is packed with Republicans. I actually... love them. Eeek! It's true; they're family.

I spew vile on DU, but in real life, I bite my tongue.

I'm looking forward to the day when I won't have to, when I can just ignore politics, just like the old days...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

28. That is an excellent point

we do have a lot more freedom here on DU to let it loose. I am not sure that's good or bad. Good, in that we need to sometimes, and bad in that spewing is a contagious condition.

Oh, the good old days when politics were in Washington!

[Hekate]

21. K&R for kind words of wisdom. Thanks, Tallahassee Gran

Thanks from Hekate

[Pirate Smile]

22. Lovely words of wisdom, TallahasseeGrannie.

I think there is a lot of venting which goes on here at DU.

The extreme polarization has made it hard to talk about politics with people I disagree with but I think that has been changing over the past year from the disaster in Iraq, Katrina, Harriet Miers and the UAE port deal.

People are no longer so confident in Bush - (understatement).

[IronLionZion]

23. Yeah, but we can't even get Dems to get along with each other

Democrats will fight with anybody about anything. We're equal opportunity fighters. Like Will Rogers said, we are not members of any organized political party, we're Democrats.

The freepers love to follow, so what we need to do is lead. The Dems are sorely in need of strong leadership. We don't have to march in lock-step, but we should at least all move forward in our own ways toward the same goals.

Reaching out to red America is an honorable goal. I think the Dean 50-state strategy is trying to accomplish that. As Americans we simply must all hang together or we'll all hang separately.

The other thread about Bushco being our Romanovs has convinced me that Bush and his corrupt cronies are not even Americans since they don't care about America.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. Your point that the freeper like to follow

is very astute. They want to feel everything is okay. Apple pie, hot dogs and beer. I'm not going to blame them for that. Maybe they have other stuff going on in their lives that takes most of their attention and all they want is not to worry. So we have got to provide the leadershihp.

The is a train just waiting for a conductor and once it starts, it is going to pick up speed and gain momentum and pretty soon 70 percent of the country will be on it.

[ThoughtCriminal]

24. Laugh at them - But don't make them fear change

The freeper types I'm familiar with that are bad-mouthing the Administration still qualify their rants with "But Bush is still better than Kerry". Frankly I wish them to become very disillusioned, stay home and never participate in politics again - they will just join the next cult to come along.

This does not describe everyone who voted for Bush, but people who are still actively defending him, deserve nothing but ridicule. I think there is some advantage to this - NOT to make people AFRAID to defend Republicans, but instead to make them EMBARRASSED to defend them.

[RazzleDazzle]

25. I'm with ya, right up until I remember --

some of them really would like to see me and every other liberal in the country either dead (literally) or deported. Some of them are very comfortable being brownshirts. You might say they were born to the role, or task.

But that's just some of them. The rest of them will find it easier to come home if we don't make it too hard on them, just as my son found it easier to tell me the truth about his life growing up if I didn't make it too hard on him when I disapproved of what he was doing (which was rare anyway).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. We should give no quarter

to people who want us DEAD. They are hopeless.

Now, I'm not quite sure who they are and how many of them there are out there. I don't think I know any, and I don't think there are any around here (and I do know some rabid freeper types.)

I guess you are talking about neo-nazis, skinheads, militia-types? Those are the only ones I can think of who are extreme enough to want ethnic or cultural cleansing.

[RazzleDazzle]

33. No, not at all

Freepers as a class (as a generalization) are perfectly okay with the idea. Ann Coulter, not exactly a neo-Nazi (tho a Nazi nonetheless -- we'll call her a paleoNazi, shall we?). And for people who are comfortable with the IDEA, I know in my heart, not to mention from history, that they can be whipped up to participate in support of same if not act.

I would also refer you back to that paid mob that appeared during the FL 2000 recount. I'm not absolutely sure any of them as individuals would go after us physically, but I was frightened by what I saw and I think most people were. But as a group (a mob), all bets are off.

And have you forgotten the genocide which was the New Orleans AstroDome and Convention Center and the 9th Ward and other flooded areas? People were literally left to die.

Finally, people who "play" at the geopolitical level, that is who send whole armies off to do their will even when it's the wrong thing to do -- people like the Bushies, the PNACers and other NeoCons -- are conscience-less to start with (sociopaths and psychopaths), but they definitely are or ecome numb to the fact that many people lose their lives because of them. Or perhaps they like the idea and find nothing objectionable about it. I think the latter is true of George W. Bush.

And just who do YOU think these Halliburton detention centers are for??

[mwb970]

31. Their problem is not admitting that they were wrong.

Their problem is admitting that we were right. A lot of them just can't do it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

32. I agree

and I guess our challenge is getting past caring who was right and wrong and just getting us all on the same page this time.

I don't know that ardent Bush supporter will ever admit the existence of the BFEE. I have a hard time with that one, myself. If one day we have a trial and the evidence is presented, perhaps.

All we have to do is convince them that the Dems are more American. That we want "freedom" by the old definition. Here. Not in the Middle East. Personally, I wish we'd just forget about them. I guess I am a bit of an isolationist, but that's a whole other thread.