The PBS Frontline documentary on Meth is really worth watching...

[eeyore]

If you go to http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/ you can actually watch the whole thing with real player or windows media player.

It's an hour long documentary that was produce by Oregon Public Broadcasting. We in Oregon have had one of the earliest and worst problems with meth in the entire country. It's really devestating to see what happens to people and communities where meth is an epidemic.

I personally lost a good friend to it, and my brother was really screwed up on it until he hit a girl head on in a drunk driving accident. He was sentenced to 12 years in prison, which was incredibly sad, but it probably saved his life in the end. He had been stealing money from my parents to buy drugs for quite some time, and was really tearing my family apart.

Oregon recently put cold medicines behind the counter at pharmacies, and I've seen a lot of people here at DU complaining about that practice. If you are in that camp, please go watch this documentary and see what you think about it then.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I have seen this and I agree

It is an excellent documentary.

Sorry about your brother. :cry:

[eeyore]

2. Thanks.

My brother is out of jail now on parole. He lives in a halfway house, and can leave to go to work. He had an $80k/Year IT job before the crash, and amazingly the company rehired him once he got out of jail. The girl he hit was permanently brain damaged, and he will be paying her family for the rest of his life. He's currently petitioning the courts to try to get his driver's license back. I honestly don't know if I ever will feel comfortable with him driving again.

[Mythsaje]

3. Meth is nasty...agreed.

But the counter thing, and the signing thing, is a hassle. And it's a real pain in the ass if you need cold medicine in the middle of the night when the pharmacy's closed.

One of the thoughts that struck me the last time I was at the store to get cold medicine was...what if someone's working on a way to create a super-stimulant out of caffeine? What a gold mine THAT would be.

And they sure as hell couldn't put THAT behind the counter at Rite-Aid.

Sacramento was developing a problem with meth back in the mid-eighties. I know. I was there. And it was everywhere. I saw some pretty scary stuff back then, which was one of the reasons I left the state for good in 87.

[anitar1]

5. Easy --keep some on hand. I know the Central Valley in

California was the first huge meth lab, and still is to some extent. But now Oregon and Wshngton are just as bad. here in Oregon it is a huge problem. I keep cold medicine on hand and do not wait until I have a cold to try and get it. Very simple.

[Mythsaje]

8. We usually do too...

but we don't necessarily always have a cold at the exactly same time, nor do we necessarily know what the other person has taken. It hasn't really been a problem yet, but I can see where it could become one.

I live in Washington State, so I know (from the media) how bad the meth problem has gotten here.

Though I have to admit I have yet to see a single aspect of the drug war have the desired result. I'm not sure this will be any different in the end.

My wife recently told me that they've started digging up cable to harvest some chemical in it, believe it or not.

[eeyore]

6. Sac may be worse now than it was when you were there.

The documentary spends a fair bit of time talking about how meth production in the US has been centered around Fresno and other NoCal communities. I've seen some really fucked up people at the gas stations up and down the I-5 corridor, especially in Southern Oregon and Northern California.

No matter where you live, it's coming your way. Go look at the website, and you'll find a map showing the number of addicts per capita by state. Pretty amazing how the East Coast has gotten away relatively clean so far.

[Mythsaje]

9. I'm sure it's bad around here...

Though from what I understand it's even more addictive than it was back then because of a change in the formula. Not that I'd know personally. I haven't even been around it in a long time.

[anitar1]

4. I watched it last week and thought it was excellent.

It was enlightening to find out how sudophendrin, sp? is manufactured and where it is produced. How it gets into this country ect.Very informative. After watching it , I understood that if our government really wanted it stopped, it would be stopped.So here we are. It is a very ugly picture and destroys hundreds of thousands of lives. The real victims are children. Addicts have no boundaries, and copulate and produce children indiscrimately, raising these kids in meth labs. We will not know for many years the effects this will have on children,physically and mentally.I live in Oregon and am proud that this state put this substance behind the counter.If people are unhappy about this, then they need to explore what is really happening.If they are still unhappy , then I hope it comes home to roost for them.You may end up raising your grandchildren.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

7. fellow oregonian... who has seen more of this up close than

anyone should.

The cold medicine thing, it's not doing much. It has decreased the number of amateur labs, and that's a good thing. BUT the stuff coming in from Mexico is cleaner and far more potent. The smugglers, they love the new law. :(

[eeyore]

10. Hey Viva_La!

We seem to run into each other in the Oregon-related threads.

I'm sure the smugglers love the new law, but we really need to do everything we can here. I've talked to landlords who legally can't rent out their houses because a renter cooked in their house. It requires a cleanup that can cost $30K or more, depending on how long they cooked there.

I really blame the drug companies for refusing to deal with it. They need to come up with some alternative drugs and just stop making the shit for a start. If they really wanted to they could, but they refuse to devote the resources to it.

Did you know that 85% of Oregon property crime is meth-related?

I know I don't have to tell you, you're living in the same shit I am every day. Something needs to change.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

11. Hey you!

I know the new laws have helped a little concerning labs, but arrests are NOT down, and the number of kids being sent to foster care are not down either (that's my biggest worry, the kids) We have to come up with something else. What it is, I don't know. :(

It doesn't suprise me about the meth related crimes, I've known too many who supported their habit that way.

Thanks for the link, I'll watch it tonight.


Hey, there's a Portland MeetUp on Saturday... Check the Oregon forum. 4pm. Still trying to decide between Lucky Lab in Hawthorne and the Kennedy School. We'd love to meet you (in real life) :) Great bunch o' DU'ers here in Puddle Town.

[depakid]

12. I heard a presentation last year

at the annual meeting of the Oregon Food Bank. It was even worse than this documentary.

There were three presenters- a precinct captain from SouthEast, A homeless advocate who runs a program in Portland to get people "housing first," and a drug rehab specialist.

Surprisingly, these three professionals- all with very different backgrounds and values- were completely on the same page with meth. The stuff's a scourge- and qualitatively different than any other drug on the streets.

We saw a lot more pictures and heard a lot more stories than I care to remember. It was about the saddest, most hopeless thing I've ever witnessed. The point of it of course was to try to clue people in on what to look for and what to do/expect when meth addicts came to food pantries and soup kitchen to get something to eat- but there was a lot more to it.

The precinct captain claimed that 80+ percent of all property crimes (burglaries, car thefts, etc) were directly attributable to meth. Basically- if it's not nailed down - they'll take it.

The homeless advocate had stats from DHS showing that 80+ percent of all kids in the foster care program (many of whom are permanently injured and/or developmentally disabled) because of meth.

The people who get hooked on it- as the program noted- suffer from anhedonia (the inability to feel pleasure). The drug rehab specialist mentioned that it takes 8-10 months clean for the brain's receptors and neurotransmitters to recover enough to begin to feel again. "til then, they walk around in a condition that's a lot like clinical depression- and possibly worse.

The only way to keep them clean long enough (or possibly give them life skills training) is through a year long inpatient program- or jail time.

That being the case- I think what's required (both humanitarian and economic wise) are separate facilities where these folks can be housed. They need to be off of the streets- or else they'll keep using and commit more crimes. We also- as a nation- need to do everything possible to cut off the supply to cooks. Can't do much to keep the finished product from coming in from mexico- but we can stop the "smurfers" from buying psuedo-ephedrine in the grocery stores, etc.

Considering the extent of the problem, I'm all for that.

[ingac70]

13. Tennessee put cold medicines behind the counter last year...

Up until recently, I couldn't drive out in rural areas with the windows down on my car without that chemical stench.

[MadHound]

14. Cold medicines behind the counter won't work

Meth is the one of the most malleable recipies out there. Pretty soon, the garage chemists will figure out how to exract the needed ingriedients from plants like ma huang, jointfir, and mormon tea. What's next, banning another group of weeds?:eyes:

Frankly, I think that they should legalize and control all illegal drugs much like they do alcohol. It would cut down on the secondary crime wave that meth and other addicts engage in. It would make the product produced better for the user, since it would be manufactured under controlled conditions. It would eliminate the toxic waste sites associated with current meth labs. And after an initial euphoric surge, meth usage in this country would actually go down below current levels.

In addition we could tax the stuff, and actually use the money for rehab and education. And all of us could regain the lost civil liberties that we have lost during this War on Drugs.

To continue as we are is absolute insanity. It isn't going to change a thing, people seem to have an inante need to alter their state of conciousness. So rather than offering up a damaging and ultimately futile fight against this need, we should embrace it, control it, and regulate it. As we've seen for the past thirty five years, anything else is simply madness.

[Voltaire99]

17. Excellent post, Madhound.

Prohibition isn't merely futile: it's viciously counterproductive. The failed drug war mocks us daily with its misspent billions, increased crime, swollen prisons, corpses and casualties, and vast corruptive influence.

The question before us is not how to control access to cold medicines. The question is, "How do we begin to live sanely so that meth isn't sought as an aid to survival in, or even a replacement for, the tragedy that is 21st century America?"

[eeyore]

20. Please watch this documentary.

If you don't live with it you have no idea how destructive it is. I'm in favor of legalization of other drugs, but meth is a completely different animal.

My friend became so delusional and depressed when he was trying to kick it that he jumped to his death from a cliff on the Oregon coast. He thought that people were chasing him, and he felt cornered. It's absolutely fucking evil.

My brother stole thousands from my parents by writing checks to himself out of their accounts while they were travelling. He was so out of touch with anything beyond the jones that he thought he wouldn't get caught.

Meth addicts are unfortunately very productive, and dont' just peacefully nod while they are high. There was a case recently where a guy came back to the house he was renovating to find that his house had been stripped - all of the wiring, pipes, and ducting had been ripped from the walls to be sold as metal scrap. Meth addicts are insanely productive in very destructive ways.

I understand you're feelings about the drug war, and for the most part I agree, but meth is a whole different animal. It would be totally immoral and impossible to legalize it without dire consequences.

[MadHound]

23. And if meth was legal and cheap,

You wouldn't have had your brother ripping off your parents, nor people ripping out the guts of new houses to sell for scrap.

I know about meth, I know what it can do, both to an individual and to a society. We are never, ever going to completely stop individuals from taking meth, anymore than prohibition was successful in stopping alcohol abuse. But by legalizing it, we can put a halt to several of the nasty secondary effects on society.

We can stop the crime wave associated with meth. Rather than having to pay outrageous prices on the black market, meth could be cheap and legally available. This will put an end to the meth related crime wave sweeping the nation. Also by legalizing meth, and having it manufactured under controlled processes, you could alleviate some of the nastier side effects users get from the shit being put out now by the garage cookers. Then, you could also tax it, and use the revenue for rehab and education purposes. You would also see more meth users coming in for health care concerning meth related side effects, rather than staying away out of fear of the legal repurcussions until it is too late and their health is wrecked beyond all hope of salvage. And by legalizing all drugs, including meth, you would put an end to the massive corruption infecting our government from the local to the state to the national level. And finally, after an initial euphoric upswing in usage, you would actually see a decrease in the use of meth and other drugs, as we witnessed both with alcohol in this country, and other drugs abroad.

Sorry, but this War on Drugs is insane. It profits the few at the expense of the rest of us, and all the while the problem continues to grow and our civil liberties shrink. Let's put a stop to the madness and legalize it all, including meth. Anything else simply doesn't make sense.

[eeyore]

25. We will never agree on this.

I agree with most everything you said if applied to most other drugs. Meth is just a different animal to me. I'd rather see people ingesting rat poison recreationally - at least they'd die instead of becoming the psychotic lifeless zombies that meth creates.

Meth makes people completely incapable of holding down a job or caring for their children. Users would have to sign away the rights to their children and live in detention centers in order to make it legal.

I am so horrified by what I've seen this drug do, that I just can't get to the side of legalization.

[MadHound]

26. So, I guess you don't want the meth problem to shrink

As I said earlier, when you legalize a drug, any drug, after an initial euphoric increase, the usage rate for the legalized drug goes down. Persistent attempts of criminalizing meth have only continued the rise in meth usage.

In addition, you would open up a new revenue stream from meth taxation, which could be earmarked for education and rehab programs, which again have proven over the years to be more effective at stopping meth and drug use than simple criminalization.

Sorry, but your positions makes little sense. You state that you would rather people ingest rat poison:wtf: Interesting that you brought that up, since that is an ingredient in a lot of meth. Wouldn't you rather alliviate some of the nasty side effect of this drug brought about by the use of such chemicals? By legalizing it, you would assure that the quality is high, and you would prevent some of the worst of the health problems inherent in black market meth.

And detention centers? Again,:wtf: The drug that has the most adverse effects on our society is alcohol, do you want to put alcohol users in detention camps? Probably not, so why would you want to do so with meth freaks?

If you want to decrease meth usage, allievate the worst of the health problems associated with meth, allieviate the secondary crime wave that accompanies black market meth, then only sensible thing to do is legalize it. Anything else is simply perpetuating the problem, increasing it exponentially at the expense of our security, safety and civil liberties. Gee, thanks:eyes:

[eeyore]

30. Like I said, we'll never agree on this...

I agree that there are underlying societal reasons that drive people to take severely damaging drugs like meth, and that we should treat people rather than criminalize them. I will support legalization of marijuana all day - I believe it to be less damaging than alcohol. I will support the type of innovative government funded shooting galleries that Vancouver, BC has set up. But I'll never get there with meth.

My statement about detention centers is not a personal desire it's a matter of fact and practicality. If the government were to give out a drug that effects people the way meth does, there would be a societal responsibility to not have the users on the streets. It's just common sense to not send incredibly high people out to mix into the general population.

We will never come to an accord on this, so we'll just have to politely disagree. We are solidly on opposite sides, and my experience with it will trump any theorecitcal intellectual excercise you wish to engage in. I'm just not willing to talk about the possibility of legalizing meth.

Sorry, that's just where I stand.



:toast:

[MadHound]

45. So you would rather have more meth addicts running around free now

With meth criminalized, but lock fewer up in detention camps if meth is legalized? Again, another:wtf: moment here.

And what you are discounting, with your limited personal experience, is the personal experiences of thousands and millions of others that were different than yours, not neccessarily worse or better, but indeed different. How does your personal experience trump the experience of these many, many others?

You start putting all of these personal experiences together, and you start coming up with some trends, some statistics, some valid informational data. But you wish to discount all that, simply because it counters your personal experience? Not a very wise move friend.

All of these others' personal experience do add up to some interesting numbers. Figures like the drop in the usage rate of all drugs once they are legalized. Figures like the drop in usage rates of all drugs when there are education and rehab programs in place and well funded, which a taxation on drugs would provide. Figures like the drop in the secondary crime stats when all drugs are legalized. Figures like the drop in the number of toxic waste sites dotting the landscapes if meth was legalized and manufactured under controlled conditions. Figures like the improvement in the health of meth users once they start getting their fix from drugs that are manufactured under controlled conditions by reputable firms.

I'm sorry, but I think that you allowing your own personal experience blind you to the reality of this problem, and the possible solutions to it. After all, it isn't like the illegality of meth prevented your friend and your brother from getting hooked on the stuff. If had been legalized, with well funded education and rehab programs available, perhaps your friend and brother could have benefitted from that:shrug: They certainly weren't stopped by the law.

My personal experience with meth is secondary, I live in a state and a region where meth is quite common, and meth addicts committ many crimes in order to feed their addiction and establish their dealing turf. I've had running gun battles up and down my street, I've had property broken into and ripped off. And yes, I've had a couple of friends get hooked on the shit, and after a long battle, kick it to the curb. I've also had a couple of friends who tried it a couple of times, and decided that they didn't like it, dropping it like a rock.(so much for that much hyped canard that meth is instantaneously addicting, a scare tactic that they've used on virtually every drug out there).

But one thing is for certain, the way that we're approaching all drugs today isn't working, and it won't work. People are still using and abusing drugs, despite the increase in penalties, and the only thing that this War on Drugs is doing is funneling lots of money to a very few, along with the ongoing theft of our civil liberties.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result every time. That definition fits the War on Drugs like a glove, and the results are just as crazy. Perhaps it is time that we injected a little sanity into the mix, and legalize it all. It's certainly worth a try, because what we're doing now certainly isn't working, it is just continuing to make matters worse, much worse.

[High Plains]

33. Funny. Air Force pilots use amphetamines. So do soldiers.

They don't generally seem to have a problem with it.

Maybe, just maybe, it's not the molecule but the social context.

I would also point out that all of the horrible meth stories I've heard have come while the drug is prohibited. Can't see that criminalizing it has worked all that well.

[eeyore]

37. Go watch the documentary.

It explains all about the difference between amphetamines and methamphetamines. It's a totally different drug that affects the brain in a far more destructive way.

I seriously doubt that our military is giving soldiers and pilots meth. Meth is not like speed from the 60s-70s. It's way more powerful and far more destructive to the individual and society.

Just watch the documentary.

[High Plains]

43. I've seen the documentary.

The difference between methamphetamine and other amphetamines is minimal. They all work on the same principles.

Meth is very much like the speed of the 1960s and 1970s. That's what "crystal" was. It was also available--and still is available--as a Schedule II drug, brand name Desoxyn.

There may be some crap in the home-cooked meth, but home-cooking is a function of prohibition, not methamphetamine use.

There is no denying that meth abuse can have deleterious consequences for the user and the people around him, but there is so much hype surrounding this drug, and PBS hasn't done us any favors by contributing to it. And the Oregonian seems to be letting its editorial crusade against Sudafed infect its news coverage.

Again, I will point out that every horror story you can tell me about meth is one that took place under drug prohibition. End drug prohibition, get the criminal justice system out of drug control, divert some of the saved resources to providing treatment for those people who need and want it. Make the world a better place for all of us.

[adriennui]

15. i'm totally ignorant of the meth phenom

what kind of high do people get from it and what makes it so destructive as opposed to pot or other prescription meds?

[ET Awful]

18. Go here . . . .

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/body/

Has all the info you need.

[madmark]

16. a drug addiction is a personal tragedy; the laws against drug use

turn these personal tragedies into a national disaster. Legalize it, tax it, put some of money into rehab availablity, and let the chips fall where they may. What we are doing now is unamerican and does nothing for the addict except punish him twice.

[eeyore]

19. It would be insanely immoral to legalize meth

Legalizing meth would be absolutely disastrous. There is no drug that has such severe effects on people. One single hit keeps you euphorically high for a full day, and once you come down you become severely depressed.

The only way you could legalize it would be to make people sign over their children, and make them live under long-term government care.

This is not weed we're dealing with here. It's a drug that makes people neglect their children to the extent that Portland police recently found a baby with moldy diapers. Do you realize how long that child was left in its own filth for its diaper to become moldy?

There is no way that we as a society could find a way to legalize this drug. I'll agree with legalization of many other drugs, but not meth. It's completely different.

[Raster]

21. i agree. when it comes to meth, all bets are off. I've had several

friends, acquaintances swallowed by meth. i knew a guy that had been through the Betty Ford Clinic *FOUR* times for meth, and the last time I saw him, he still had the urge.

Although nothing to brag about, I have been involved or skirting the edge of the "drug culture" for about 30 years. I've seen crackheads, heroin junkies, pill poppers, coke whores and speed freaks. The scariest, BY FAR, are the speed freaks. I have seen people literally age YEARS in just a couple of months right before my eyes. No, meth is completely different. There is no safe or sane way to use meth. You become a crispy critter, no middle ground.

[adriennui]

22. wow, i had no idea meth was so awful

i live in the burbs of MYC and the big things out here are alcohol, pills (mostly downers) and the usual illegals. i hope it never gets too popular here. sounds very scary.

i would assume meth can make the user violent.

[eeyore]

24. Meth is coming to the East Coast

It has been spreading eastward, and will eventually make it there.

Go check out this map on the Frontline site. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/map/

It started as mostly a western problem, but has travelled across the country over time.

Yes, it does make people extremely violent, especially in the area of domestic violence and child abuse. The drug also creates a very strong sex drive, and puts them at higher risk for STDs.

Meth users can be sexually insatiable, and will have unprotected sex for hours to the point of ripping apart their genitals. Also the instances of unprotected sex with strangers is very high with meth users. Unwanted pregnancies are tragic with them, because addicts literally cannot hold down jobs - they just can't funtion well enough to work. So, they only ways to support the children they have, if they choose to do so, would be dealing drugs, prostitution, and theft.

[adriennui]

29. Ok, meth dealers are in it for the money

but what is the so great about the high that people are willing to screw-up their lives. there are other drugs and alcohol (not advocating for them) that are easier to get and don't leave you f--ked up like meth.

it sounds like an absolutely horrible drug (i loved quaaludes back in the day but they made me feel mellow and happy).

[eeyore]

32. Watch that documentary

What the doc details is how meth affects the dopamine sensors in the brain. Basically it depletes the pleasure sensors in the brain, while at the same time flooding the brain with dopamine. The effect is that the user literally cannot feel pleasure unless they are on the drug, and when they try to kick it they have to suffer through 6-12 months of intense depression and mental numbness. Most users end up back on the drug because they can't stand the effects of not being on the drug.

Really, go watch the show. It will explain a lot.

[adriennui]

42. i will watch

it sounds interesting.

[madmark]

51. certain people completely succombe to the high; but like I said that's

a personal tragedy. The law against the stuff tranforms these personal tragedies into a national disaster pissing away hundreds of billions (even trillions) in energy, money, and freedom via law enforcement, courts, incarceration. And these external costs create a compelling black market just as addicting to members of the underclass (and others higher up the food chain)who want to make more money than their education would normally allow them. Every dollar spent prohibiting the stuff increases the risk and return of the people willing to sell, making it more and more attactive to people inclined ot enter the business, and creating a vicious never ending upward spiral of drug trade activity. The drug laws have created 30 years of jurisprudence that has incrementally evicserated the 4th amendment and led to its general disrespect the fruits of which we have seen recent examples.

[madmark]

50. addicts are neglecting their kids anyway with the status quo; in addition

to putting the taxes to treatment some should also go to taking care of the defacto orphans this drug use creates. Child neglect still stays a crime. There is no such thing as a law against self destruction.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. There needs to be work on the demand side as well as the supply side

We as a society have to ask ourselves WHY so many people are even willing to try meth enough to get addicted to it. What is the appeal?

Quick bucks is one. Riding the buses in Portland was a real education in sociology for me. When you see men giving each other hints on where to find that job that pays $9 an hour, as if it's the Holy Grail, it's easy to see how the promise of big profits from easily available ingredients could be an almost irresistible temptation. You can see how someone who has to work two jobs to survive might turn to meth just to be able to stay awake. You can see how someone who has clinical depression and no money for health insurance to treat it might find the high from meth to be most appealing.

Clean up these underlying problems, and you'll go a long way toward reducing drug use.

Happy, fulfilled people don't abuse drugs. That's been my observation since the the 1970s. Look closely at a heavy drug user and you'll see "empty head and/or empty heart."

[Cleita]

28. I saw it last week. It was really profound and I agree with you

that everyone should watch it to be aware of the problem even if they haven't had any personal experiences with it like me.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

31. 1st off, if drunk driving, I don't see why you don't blame alcohol

for your brothers problems, but that's beside the point.

To all on the thread, if you want to really be SCARED, watch Reefer Madness! And some would try and tell you marijuana is a safe, innocent drug.

I guess I won't ever do meth, I like to have sex for hours, but not until my genitals actually rip apart.

Maybe we should just line them up against the wall and shoot them like they would in China for not conforming to what everyone else expects. After all, it's not like America was founded on any kind of principle of individual liberty or anything, we're required by law to do, act, think and live just like everyone else. That's what freedom is all about.

:sarcasm:

[eeyore]

34. Great attitude there, man...

One of the biggest failures of the war on drugs is the inability of the Feds to separate the drugs they are trying to fight. They see pot, herion, meth, and cocaine as equally evil and destructive. You and I both know that is false.

I find it really frustrating that many people who advocate for drug legalization can't draw those lines in exactly the same way as the Feds. All drugs should be legal - period. That's just as insane as saying that all drugs should be illegal, and that pot dealers should be dealt with in the same way as meth dealers.

There are lines that need to be drawn. I never said treat people as criminals and refuse to treat them, and in fact I've said just the opposite.

I've stated that I'm firmly for the decriminalization of marijuana. I've done plenty of drugs in my time, and still smoke pot - it's far more benign than alcohol.

Don't try to paint me into some Reefer Madness abolitionist. All drugs are not created equal, and they should be dealt with in different ways. There is no redeeming quality to meth, and it is a fucking scourge on society that needs to be looked at seriously.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

36. I do have a great attitude

Because one woman's baby is found in a moldy diaper I am not willing to sentence a whole group of people to jail and restrict all citizens rights.

Just like with alcohol, there are some that can't drink without huring themselves or someone else, I don't see everyone who drinks criminalized regardless of whether they have done something wrong or not.

As far as separating drugs, hurt and crime is hurt and crime, regardless of what substance you are under, so this separating them is a non-logical fallacy.

[High Plains]

44. "No redeeming quality to meth"

Somebody must think there is, or no one would be using it.

[High Plains]

35. Meth is the demon drug du jour

We always have to have a drug we can demonize. How else are all those sheriffs going to howl for more money?

People, this stuff has been around for decades. And it is not "an epidemic." Go look at the National Household Survey on Drug Use, go look at the Monitoring the Future surveys of high school students, go look at the Drug Abuse Warning Network surveys of hospital ER rooms. Meth use is essentially flat, and declining among high school students.

There are regional variations, yes, and use is higher in the West and Midwest.

Why do we trust cops to be "experts" about drugs? That's like considering them to be experts on marriage because they break up domestic abuse. And they have a vested interest in continuing drug war without end, amen.

Legalize it. Get the cops out of it, except to clean up the mess--like with alcohol.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

40. Demon Drug du jour, no doubt

"and it is a fucking scourge on society that needs to be looked at seriously"

I thought it was tobacco smokers! They're really going to have to stick to one scourge on society at a time. Cut off enough people that don't conform to their ideals, I bet they'll turn this country into a great place in no time. After all, it's not our leaders turning this country into a shithole, it's smokers and tweakers.

[eeyore]

46. I smoke, drink, smoke weed, and drink about a gallon of coffee a day.

I've done plenty of drugs, enough to have some perspective on what I deem to be a drug that has no redeeming qualities for anyone for any reason. Don't paint me as some sort of teetotaling abolitionist. I started this thread because I think there is is a lot of distorted thinking about meth, and I thought that people might be interested in the perspective of the documentary.

Obviously you can't get out of your "Legalize it, don't criticize it!" mentality far enough to think about this on any critical and objective level.

If you can't be open enough to hear someone else's perspective without falling into polarizing name calling, then I'm not going to get into it with you.

Suffice it to say, however, you have no idea where I'm coming from, and your reaction shows me that you're not all that different than someone who has a knee jerk belief that all drugs are evil and all people who take drugs should be jailed. You just happen to be a zealot on the opposite side of the fence. Funny, I thought that liberalism had something to do with acceptance and an open mind to the possibility that all things aren't to be judged exactly alike.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

48. No, what you don't grasp is you are making USE illegal

Simple use of a drug.

Now, criminalization of any drug might make some sense if only people who use that drug that commit CRIMES are arrested, but millions and millions more are arrested that commit no CRIME except possessing or using a drug.

Now, for the life of me, after failed Prohibition and a failed War on Drugs that has not lessened drug use in anyway but has attacked our civil rights in every way imaginable, I can't understand how you don't see that this approach will not work. For any drug. Edit: And The Drug War IS affecting us in ways never dreamed of; PEED IN A CUP FOR A JOB LATELY?

Now, I have done just about everything under the sun at one time or another in my near 50 years and I have never been arrested. For ANYTHING. Not even an alcohol related crime.

You want to tell me why I should have a law dictating what I can or cannot do?

Also, why does this alleged Democratic concept of "I control my own body" end at abortion or gay marriage? Seriously? This doesn't compute.

No, it's really quite simple. If someone is on drugs and commits a crime, send them to jail for the crime, but don't say nobody else can this drug and we'll throw you in jail too if you do.

That's some crazy shit.

Edit: I also called you no names anywhere on the thread I see. Maybe you're reading what you want to read.

[jeffrey_X]

38. It's no crack....

but then again the population it effects is mainly white so it's no big deal. Or at least there isn't they same type of outrage and scrutiny as there was with crack.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

39. They're working on it brother, give them a chance n/t

[eeyore]

47. I understand that sentiment.

There has been a fair bit of debate about that issue here in Portland already. It's a fucking racist crime that crack was essentially ignored by our government. I don't know what to really say about it, other than that I hope meth never hits the black communities.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

49. How did government ignore it?

Not throw enough poor black people in jail for it?

Maybe we can make up for it by sending lots of poor white people to jail for crank.

[Bridget Burke]

41. I haven't watched it, but speed has been around since the 60's...

(Maybe earlier, but my elementary school was not that hip.) Speed freaks were worse than junkies--a junky might steal your TV, but then he'd shoot up & nod off. Speed freaks just kept going.

I like generic Sudafed for my yearly cold & occasional allergies. I don't notice its stimulant properties--since I take the regular dose or half that. Besides, all the other OTC remedies are downers.

Last time I bought my "drugs" I picked up a card where the pills had been previously sold--in a grocery store. Then took them to checkout with my other stuff, signed a register & got my pills. No problem at all.

[Ayesha]

52. Legalize meth? Are you people nuts?

This drug is a scourge. I don't think people should be jailed for using any drug, but required rehab, and penalties for selling it (if the person is not a user) are appropriate.

HOWEVER, if we made pot, shrooms, and perhaps a couple of the other safer, non-violence-inducing drugs legal, maybe people would be less likely to boil Sudafed and batteries in search of a high!