David Irving reverts to extremism

[Behind the Aegis]

Far-right author David Irving's repudiation of his views on the Holocaust and Hitler's role in it has not lasted very long. In a prison interview just days after he told an Austrian court he had been wrong to deny the Holocaust, he reverted to insisting that the slaughter in Nazi death camps was exaggerated, and that Jews "bear blame for what happened".

His latest statements, made just two days after he was convicted of Holocaust denial, could see him end up back in court. Prosecutors are demanding an increase in his jail sentence, and the Austrian supreme court must now decide whether he goes down for the full 10 years.

<snip>

The author was jailed on Monday for three years for denying the Holocaust during two lectures and in a newspaper interview in Austria nearly 17 years ago. But despite the conviction, the 67-year-old did not shy away from the subject. Irving complained that the Jews held far too much power and predicted their disproportionate control in the US would see a second Holocaust "in 20 to 30 years".

Just days after he told the Viennese court "I've changed my views", he said it was part of the human condition to dislike Jews and that they were at least in part to blame for the 3,000 years of hatred they had had to endure.

<snip>

more...

While I respect free speech, I have to say, personally, I hope he rots in jail!

[Che_Nuevara]

1. Hell no.

The guy's shit, and I hope he rots in hell. But the criminalization of speech is far too dangerous.

We're fighting our own battle over this at home; the fact that there is legal precedent in many other countries (including Canada, Australia, Belgium, Germany, Austria, and others) for the criminalization of speech that "goes against the official story" does not bode well for our own struggle. And he's in jail now for something that he said 17 years ago. How many of you can even remember any of the things you said 17 years ago? Do you still agree with them? But if you were in Austria or Germany 17 years ago, and you disputed the fact that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust, then you could go to jail tomorrow.

Yes, the Holocaust ranks among the worst events in modern history. Yes, we as human beings need to do everything to make sure it never happens again. But criminalizing speech is not one of those things.

As the Austrian government can now see, punishing him for what he said did not make him stop. In fact, it only made it worse, because he's now reverting to what he was previously quiet about. (Indeed, it seems that he blames 'the Jews' for the fact that he's in jail.)

Should it be illegal to say that Joseph Stalin did not kill 21 million people, but in fact far less, in labor camps during his reign? Should it be illegal to say that slavery in America in the early 19th century "wasn't that bad"? Should it be illegal to imply that FDR had no direct hand in rounding up Japanese-Americans into internment camps during WWII? Even though all the above would be crack-pot theories, should crack-pots really go to jail just for saying crack-pot things?

You can go to jail in many countries, not just Germany and Austria, for saying the above things about the Holocaust.


EDIT: typo

[Behind the Aegis]

2. I understand what you are saying...however...

While I agree that the criminalization of speech is dangerous, where should the lines be drawn? We are not talking about 'simple lies,' we are talking about blaming victims for their own deaths in a historical event. Could his speeches not be 'slanderous?' Slander is not protected in this country (the US).

The reason that law exists in Austria is because of their own history. The law exists because so many are trying to 'whip up' that hate again. They do this by 'denying' the Jewish Holocaust. Notice that his speeches and writings, rarely, if ever, deny the destruction of other peoples, just Jews. Is this not a form of hate speech?

It is a slippery slope. But, I do find myself agreeing with him...another Holocaust could very well be in the making. Will the Jews survive this time, or simply be a footnote in the history books?

[Che_Nuevara]

3. The Holocaust happened because the entire world was willing

to say, "Here, you can have 'em."

The next religion to be targeted will not be Judaism again, but Islam.

In the US, slander/libel has to have a proven negative effect on an individual, whereas hate speech has to have a clear connection to a close-following act. It's also worth noting that David Irving won his libel case in England, where libel laws are much broader (and the burden of proof lies on the defendant, not the complaintant).

I live in Germany, and I disagree with your claim that 'so many are trying to "whip up" that hate again". Anti-Semitism isn't all that popular in Central Europe anymore, and its proponents get slammed with a firestorm of criticism (and worse). If there's any group, ethnic or religious, which it is 'fashionable' to hate around here, it's Arabs, particularly Turks. (Hence my comment above about the 'next Holocaust'.) Are there anti-Semites around? Sure. Will there always be? Sure. Just like there will always be people in America that say that blacks ought to "go back to Africa" and whatnot.

As terrible as it is, a citizen of a "free" society has the 'right to hate'. He doesn't have a right to act on that hate. If Irving had said "Kill all Jews!", and the next day some kid who saw the lecture went out and killed a Jew, I'd say lock the fucker up for life. But he didn't say that.

Your 'slippery slope' comment sidesteps my real question: where do we draw the line? There are still people in America who insist that blacks were "better off" as slaves, that "the conditions were pretty good". These words, in Germany, about the Holocaust, are a punishable crime. Should the same be in America? I despise Fred Phelps, and if I believed in hell I would be certain that he was going, but should we really lock him away for saying that Matthew Shepard 'had it coming'? What makes it okay to say these things about blacks, gays, women, Russian Jews, or any other group aside from German/Polish Jews? Or should all of those be crimes too?

[Behind the Aegis]

4. We will have to disagree on a few points.

You say:

The next religion to be targeted will not be Judaism again, but Islam.

No, it will be the Jews, again! I don't have access to hate crimes in your country, but I do to the ones in mine. After 9-11, Islamaphobic crimes shot up, but they never surpassed anti-Semitic crimes. Anti-semitism is rife on the far-right and the far-left; although they pretend it is just anti-Israeli sentiment.

While you live in Germany, you can disagree with my statements, but that is not what is coming out in world-wide stats about anti-Semitism. While your country is notably anti-Muslim (mainly anti-Turkish because of immigration laws), anti-Semitism is still a real problem in Germany. I seem to remember (I think it was Germany) that skinheads and Muslim radicals had joined forces about the "Jewish problem." (This actually may have been The Netherlands. I'd have to find that article posted at DU.)

Your 'slippery slope' comment sidesteps my real question: where do we draw the line? There are still people in America who insist that blacks were "better off" as slaves, that "the conditions were pretty good".

Where indeed. While I have heard people make the claims you are stating, I have NEVER heard that slavery didn't exist in the US or it was their (Africans) fault.

Like I said, I can't wholly agree with the Austrian law, but as we say here, in the US, "once bitten, twice shy."

[tenshi816]

5. Anti-semitic crimes are up in the UK too.

There was a link very recently here on DU about it.

Yesterday's Sunday Times (UK) ran an article about David Irving entitled Not so repentant: Irving’s real views, which you can read at this link: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2058361,00.html

Irving is a pathetic, repulsive, evil little man. I would be surprised if he hadn't, somewhere along the way in his dealings with right-wing hate groups, expressed a desire to see Jews killed. He's completely obsessed.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Yes, there was...I posted it.

But, if you read the responses, you'd think it was all in my "Jew" imagination, or the imagination of the Jewish British.

I agree with you...Irving is a "pathetic, repulsive, evil little man." However, should his bullshit be protected, even it inspires hate against Jews?

You are also correct, in that, he is obsessed. I have never seen him deny crimes against any group other than Jews.

[Che_Nuevara]

8. Yes, he is a pathetic, repulsive, evil man. I agree totally.

And I do agree that anti-Semitism is still a problem, and still a very big one. My point is it is a different kind of problem than it was 70 years ago.

That is, it is no longer a popular problem. There are many people who "blame the Jews" for many varied things that really have little or nothing to do with Judaism. But it is no longer the majority, and it is no longer the fashionable opinion. They are radicals. In 1932, 37.8% of Germans, nationally, voted for the NSDAP. (That's more than today's ruling party has.) In 2004, around .5% voted for the NPD (the 'rebirth' party for the NSDAP).

Another interesting issue is that anti-Muslim crimes have another dimension to them: class. Many anti-Muslim crimes are not filed as anti-Muslim crimes because they are filed as class crimes. Likewise, Muslims are a common target because of class in addition to religion. This dimension does not exist in anti-Semitic crimes.

There is still a lot of anti-Semitism in the world, I agree with that. But the potential for another Holocaust of the Jews is not there because there would be no popular support for it like there was in the 40's. On the other hand, if you want to see a great example of popularised anti-Muslim hate, take a look at the Paris riots last fall.

[fujiyama]

6. The guy is obviously

a piece of shit.

But I still don't agree in the criminalization of being an willfully ignorant ass hole.

Unless he was making threats, or clearly inciting violence, I am uneasy about the sentence.

Europe, and especially Austria and Germany have their own peculiar histories, so their situation is different, but I am not sure if this is the best way to combat such ignorance.

As for the increase in anti Semtic crimes, your concern is totally valid. I believe after 9/11 hate crimes against many groups shot up (mostly obviously against Muslims). However, I also think there was a a more general sense of xenophobia that swept all across the West (as we saw there was an increase in anti Semitic crimes as well as other groups - I recall hearing of several incidents of Hindu and Sikh temples being vandalized and several others being hurt or killed). I do believe there is a lot of code language among some on the extreme left and right for anti Semitism. It is completely legitimate to criticise Israel's policies, but when only Israel is singled out for human rights abuses, I find the uproar disingenuous and often find hidden agendas.

[Colorado Blue]

9. Oh brother.

The reason the schmuck is in jail is simply this: he's not merely denying the Holocaust, he's saying IF it occurred the Jews deserved it.

This is incitement.

He's saying it will happen again and when it does it will be our fault.

That's hate speech.

With respect to Islamophobia, I think that's more a matter of two cultures not having gotten to know each other well. In time this will pass, as people get used to each other and each group compromises a bit and learns not to fear "the other".

But antisemitism is a 2,000 year old disease of our culture, with echoes in the Islamic world. It's pathological and it erupts periodically - typically, when things start going wrong - people blame the Jews.

Also, there are 1.3 BILLION Muslims in the world and 13 million Jews.

Given many of the comments I've seen about Jews even on the Left, which theoretically should be defending us, I'm afraid - afraid there will be another bloodletting, and people will, like Irving, find some justification to forgive themselves for mass murder.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. you are correct...

"The reason the schmuck is in jail is simply this: he's not merely denying the Holocaust, he's saying IF it occurred the Jews deserved it."

Your point seems to be lost on many people. Of course, there are many that are "rank and file" with him in respects to this issue.

Have you ever seen a Holocaust denier that denied the murders of anyone other than Jews?

[barb162]

10. It needs to be pointed out this idiot is NOT a trained historian

He's a sickass KKK type...who studied PHYSICS. He gives academic, educated historians a bad name. (EWWWW!)
From Wikipedia below:

"According to Irving's fraternal twin brother, Nicholas, David Irving gave a "Heil Hitler" salute as a six year-old when a German bomber destroyed a neighbouring house.<2>

His elder brother, John Irving, is currently chairman of the Wiltshire Racial Equality Council and a devout Muslim since 1981. <[3>]


Student years
After completing A-levels at Brentwood School, Irving first gained notoriety as a student at Imperial College London, where he studied physics. He wrote for the student newspaper Phoenix and in 1959 served as editor of the London University Carnival Committee's journal, Carnival Times. His editorialship here stirred criticism, though Irving deflects such criticism by characterizing the Carnival Times as "satirical". In one editorial, he suggested the media were owned by Jews and were against the formation of the European Union, and referred to Adolf Hitler as "Herr Hitler." According to the Anti-Defamation League, Irving also supported apartheid in South Africa, racist cartoons, and gave an appreciative view of Nazi Germany <4>. Covering the controversy, the 1 May 1959 edition of the Daily Mail, quoted Irving as saying, "You can call me a mild fascist if you like". Though Irving admits having had at the time membership in a Conservative student group, he has denounced that article as libelous and "handiwork of an imaginative Daily Mail journalist." <5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Criticism_by_historians


:hi: