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Keith Olbermann is having Francis Fukuyama on tonight--could be important

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:23 AM
Original message
Keith Olbermann is having Francis Fukuyama on tonight--could be important
Old FF was the standard-bearer for the neocons, though now he is trying to claim he was somehow "misunderstood." Amazing how it took the asshole a decade and a half to straighten out what he claims are misperceptions, but hey, whatever.

At any rate, for those who watch KO, I thought it would be instructive to post a link to this article, which, though ponderous in the extreme, will be the centerpiece of the discussion. Here's your reading homework:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/magazine/neo.html?ex=1141189200&en=ff2e00bbb3d3df00&ei=5070

As we approach the third anniversary of the onset of the Iraq war, it seems very unlikely that history will judge either the intervention itself or the ideas animating it kindly. By invading Iraq, the Bush administration created a self-fulfilling prophecy: Iraq has now replaced Afghanistan as a magnet, a training ground and an operational base for jihadist terrorists, with plenty of American targets to shoot at. The United States still has a chance of creating a Shiite-dominated democratic Iraq, but the new government will be very weak for years to come; the resulting power vacuum will invite outside influence from all of Iraq's neighbors, including Iran. There are clear benefits to the Iraqi people from the removal of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and perhaps some positive spillover effects in Lebanon and Syria. But it is very hard to see how these developments in themselves justify the blood and treasure that the United States has spent on the project to this point.

The so-called Bush Doctrine that set the framework for the administration's first term is now in shambles. The doctrine (elaborated, among other places, in the 2002 National Security Strategy of the United States) argued that, in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks, America would have to launch periodic preventive wars to defend itself against rogue states and terrorists with weapons of mass destruction; that it would do this alone, if necessary; and that it would work to democratize the greater Middle East as a long-term solution to the terrorist problem. But successful pre-emption depends on the ability to predict the future accurately and on good intelligence, which was not forthcoming, while America's perceived unilateralism has isolated it as never before. It is not surprising that in its second term, the administration has been distancing itself from these policies and is in the process of rewriting the National Security Strategy document.

But it is the idealistic effort to use American power to promote democracy and human rights abroad that may suffer the greatest setback. Perceived failure in Iraq has restored the authority of foreign policy "realists" in the tradition of Henry Kissinger. Already there is a host of books and articles decrying America's naïve Wilsonianism and attacking the notion of trying to democratize the world. The administration's second-term efforts to push for greater Middle Eastern democracy, introduced with the soaring rhetoric of Bush's second Inaugural Address, have borne very problematic fruits. The Islamist Muslim Brotherhood made a strong showing in Egypt's parliamentary elections in November and December. While the holding of elections in Iraq this past December was an achievement in itself, the vote led to the ascendance of a Shiite bloc with close ties to Iran (following on the election of the conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as president of Iran in June). But the clincher was the decisive Hamas victory in the Palestinian election last month, which brought to power a movement overtly dedicated to the destruction of Israel. In his second inaugural, Bush said that "America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one," but the charge will be made with increasing frequency that the Bush administration made a big mistake when it stirred the pot, and that the United States would have done better to stick by its traditional authoritarian friends in the Middle East. Indeed, the effort to promote democracy around the world has been attacked as an illegitimate activity both by people on the left like Jeffrey Sachs and by traditional conservatives like Pat Buchanan.

The reaction against democracy promotion and an activist foreign policy may not end there. Those whom Walter Russell Mead labels Jacksonian conservatives — red-state Americans whose sons and daughters are fighting and dying in the Middle East — supported the Iraq war because they believed that their children were fighting to defend the United States against nuclear terrorism, not to promote democracy. They don't want to abandon the president in the middle of a vicious war, but down the road the perceived failure of the Iraq intervention may push them to favor a more isolationist foreign policy, which is a more natural political position for them. A recent Pew poll indicates a swing in public opinion toward isolationism; the percentage of Americans saying that the United States "should mind its own business" has never been higher since the end of the Vietnam War.
....


It's long, but worth plowing through, in order to get a full sense of the discussion to take place.
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coffeenap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, I am crying for the misunderstanding--
NOT! He helped to lead us into this mess--let him help lead us out!!
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. He's also going to be on BOOKTV for 3 hours next Sunday...
Live call-in show. We should do our homework like good DU'ers, then call in and ask him a few questions. :evilgrin:

On Sunday, March 5 at 12:00 pm and Monday, March 6 at 12:00 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Depth: Francis Fukuyama
Description: Join Book TV on March 5 for In Depth, a 3-hour interview and call-in show with author and professor Francis Fukuyama. Mr. Fukuyama has published numerous books about political and economic development, including "The End of History and the Last Man," "Trust: The Social Virtues and the Creation of Prosperity," "The Great Disruption: Human Nature and the Reconstitution of Social Order," "Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the Biotechnology Revolution," "State-Building: Governance and World Order in the 21st Century," and "Nation-Building: Beyond Afghanistan and Iraq." His newest book, "America at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power, and the Neoconservative Legacy," publishes in March 2006. Francis Fukuyama is the director of the International Development Program at the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University in Washington, DC, where he is also the Bernard L. Schwartz Professor of International Political Economy. In the 1980s, Francis Fukuyama was a member of the Policy Planning Staff of the U.S. Department of State. He served on the President's Council on Bioethics from 2001 to 2005, and he is currently chairman of the editorial board of The American Interest magazine.



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GrumpyGreg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #2
4.  I tried reading one of his books about 5 years ago and couldn't get
beyond the second chapter.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Here's a rich commentary--he's a COPYCAT (and he copied SOROS!)
http://prospect.org/weblog/archives/2006/02/index.html#009220

MR. SOROS, MR. FUKUYAMA; MR. FUKUYAMA, MR. SOROS. Reading The New York Times magazine's important piece on neoconservatism this past weekend, I kept thinking something about the argument seemed very familiar. At first I couldn't put my finger on it -- but then I remembered.
Francis Fukuyama, "After Neoconservatism," February 2006:

Now that the neoconservative moment appears to have passed, the United States needs to reconceptualize its foreign policy in several fundamental ways. In the first instance, we need to demilitarize what we have been calling the global war on terrorism and shift to other types of policy instruments. We are fighting hot counterinsurgency wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and against the international jihadist movement, wars in which we need to prevail. But "war" is the wrong metaphor for the broader struggle, since wars are fought at full intensity and have clear beginnings and endings. Meeting the jihadist challenge is more of a "long, twilight struggle" whose core is not a military campaign but a political contest for the hearts and minds of ordinary Muslims around the world. (emphasis added)

George Soros, "Reconsidering the War on Terror," March 2005:
I should like to challenge the very concept of the “war on terror”. It is a metaphor that needs to be challenged because it has been accepted uncritically and applied literally. If anybody dares to say that there is something wrong with framing the struggle against terrorism as “the war on terror,” it is immediately assumed that there is something wrong with him. So nobody dares to say it yet it needs to be said because the war on terror as we have waged it since 9/11 has done more harm than good. It has not prevented terrorist attacks around the world yet it has diverted our attention from other vital tasks, damaged our dominant position in the world and endangered our open society. We must find a better way, a new consensus on fighting terrorism.
Why is it so harmful to frame the struggle against terrorists as the “war on terror”? Because this metaphor leads us to rely too much on military force and not enough on other means of countering the terrorist. (emphasis added)

--Garance Franke-Ruta

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Bush needs the term "war'---to do what he does.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. fukuyama is going to have to do a lot more than disavow pnac!
he had better attack the whole straussian, weyrich, heritage foundation, bill buckley conservative catholic, corporate oligarchy thing that has sprung up since nixon.

i don't think a tapeworm can suddenly stop being a tapeworm -- he just sucked on something that momentarily tasted bad.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Oh, I doubt he will roll over completely
He'll likely try to pull that academic "above it all" bullshit. You know how people do when they are painted into a corner: Why, those were simply theories, big picture stuff, not a blueprint for anyone....!

He'll try to have his cake and eat it too. I think the guy has spent his life with his hand upraised, his finger in the wind!
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. thanks for the link
I didn't get the NYT this weekend so would have missed it.

I saw the KO promo- it should be very "interesting" (a word Chimp always uses to compensate for his limited vocabulary).
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I think this is an undeniable signal that there is a strong sea change
brewing....between the GOP leaders crying in their beer at their little conference recently, and little Francis crawling out to say it's all shit and hawk his latest book on the very subject, and to plead, oh, by the way, you misinterpreted me (!!!) it's clear that something big is happening, and the signs all point our way.

Old Francis should grow whiskers and a tail, because he's one of the bigger rats, and he's deserting the sinking, stinking ship!
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. plus that jolly, animated corpse, 'Father of Conservatism', Bill Buckley
http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200602241451.asp

has said this: "One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed."
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Ha! Great minds!!!! I was posting a bit of that very article at the
same time, below!!!!
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. here's to ya, MADem!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:26 PM
Original message
That pic is a HOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!! n/t
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. That pic is a HOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!!!!!!!
Edited on Mon Feb-27-06 01:26 PM by MADem
ON EDIT--I doubleclicked, but the pic is funny enough to say it twice!!!!!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. He wasn't misunderstood at all. He wants that New World Order badly.
Edited on Mon Feb-27-06 10:47 AM by madfloridian
Edit for link:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/688/intrvw.htm

Question:In your new book, Nation Building: Governance and World Order in the 21st Century, you argue that bad governance or not enough government is the reason why Third World countries outside East Asia are unable to develop. Does this mean you want competent governments in the Middle East before full democracies?

ANSWER:The two are so much related. Normally, you cannot have good governance without democracy. Singapore is an example that everybody points to -- a very efficient bureaucracy, government by technocrats, without democracy so far. That is one possible model, but in practice very few countries are able to achieve Singapore's level of good governance.

And I think that democracy is a component of good governance because in many cases it is really impossible to have a government that is responsible to the needs of the people it is trying to serve without participation, feedback and the ability to hold officials accountable. So, I think in some level you cannot separate the two.

To progress in the Middle East towards more accountable governments is probably going to take a while because authoritarian governments are very deeply embedded in many Middle Eastern countries. It might take one or two generations to recognise that kind of change."

Yeh, well, Francis, my friend. I read you were undecided about voting for Bush or Kerry. Did you decide? How did that work out?

Well, hell, writing a book with a title like this;
Nation Building: Governance and World Order in the 21st Century

You should go on that show and apologize to all good Americans. This country has the worst governance ever with the neocon guys in place. A little too little a little too late.

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. he certainly wasn't misundertood
then or now.

look at the way he talks about the world -- absolutely CHILLING.

if corporations -- the oligarchs -- have their way -- we are all going to be alike.

i don't understand how people can ignore what is right in front of their faces -- these people are dangerous.

i'm very liberal -- but i have my limits -- neocons and pnacers should go to jail.

they are simply trying to publicly justify their machiavellian advance into the most powerful positions in america and europe.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-27-06 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. That was two years ago, he has a NEW book out, and he is backpedaling
like a crack-addicted hamster! The title is America at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power, and the Neoconservative Legacy (New Haven: Yale University Press, 2006)

Actually, it isn't out until next month, but he's already whipping up interest--guess he figures he'd better strike while the iron is hot!

Another rat deserting the sinking ship is old Lizard Tongue Wm. F. Buckley, who says in no uncertain terms that IT DIDN'T WORK: http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/buckley/buckley200602241451.asp

....One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed. The same edition of the paper quotes a fellow of the American Enterprise Institute. Mr. Reuel Marc Gerecht backed the American intervention. He now speaks of the bombing of the especially sacred Shiite mosque in Samara and what that has precipitated in the way of revenge. He concludes that “The bombing has completely demolished” what was being attempted — to bring Sunnis into the defense and interior ministries.

Our mission has failed because Iraqi animosities have proved uncontainable by an invading army of 130,000 Americans. The great human reserves that call for civil life haven't proved strong enough. No doubt they are latently there, but they have not been able to contend against the ice men who move about in the shadows with bombs and grenades and pistols.

The Iraqis we hear about are first indignant, and then infuriated, that Americans aren't on the scene to protect them and to punish the aggressors. And so they join the clothing merchant who says that everything is the fault of the Americans.

The Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, elucidates on the complaint against Americans. It is not only that the invaders are American, it is that they are "Zionists." It would not be surprising to learn from an anonymously cited American soldier that he can understand why Saddam Hussein was needed to keep the Sunnis and the Shiites from each others' throats....



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