Miners families:"We're Christian people but we're wondering if there IS

[kerry-is-my-prez]

a lord. Our miracle was taken away from us."

I was wondering about how they were going to take it after I heard all of these people saying "praise the Lord, praise the savior!" after they thought the miners were safe.

It's rather sad. It's going to take these people a long time to get over this.

[Lost-in-FL]

1. It is always God fault...

:sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

16. Well, if you're gonna praise Him for "miracles"....

...He's got to take responsibility for the bad stuff, no?

[manic expression]

35. Sure

and that's what is happening here. However, I do think it is a mistake to contribute everything to one being that is not even a part of the world. That's the differences in worldview, however, and so I disagree with their conclusions on...well, a heck of a lot of stuff.

[xchrom]

2. indeed -- and i'm a believer.

it's nightmare to be on that rollercoaster that they were just on.

geez -- i'm hoping someone religous doesn't say something stupid to these folk -- but these days the cat is out of the bag as far as what some ministers will say.

[leftstreet]

9. I also fear some TV nut minister will say something horrid

In the fund-raising mindset of these nutjob preachers, God just slipped in the polls. I hope they don't do or say anything to add to the pain these people are experiencing.

[thefool_wa]

12. God knows what they'll say

no pun intended, but after Pat Roberts little schpiel over Dover anything is possible.

[kestrel91316]

65. Heck, I thought it was obvious that God was punishing WV for

the misdeeds of all those witches, gays, and feminists.

[xchrom]

14. well, let's keep an eye out and hope for the best.

[NYC Liberal]

89. Phelps is protesting the funerals...so there's one.

He'd better watch out, though. I don't think these people are in the mood for his ilk.

[JuniperLea]

3. I hope they remember

The Lord works in mysterious ways. And I hope they are outraged enough to stick it to Bushie for lowering the inspection budget and to the media for pulling this evil stunt! They are all so worried someone else is going to get a story that they will print whatever, so long as they are not left out. Bastards.

These poor people need to rest up then vent their anger in an appropriate manner. It would make them feel better.

[thefool_wa]

15. It wasn't a media stunt

It seems an honest mis communication adn the media jumped on it before an OFFICIAL anouncement was made.

[JuniperLea]

43. Not a stunt, but negligent

They should not have reported it until it was confirmed. Jumping on unconfirmed stories is exactly what I'm talking about. I think it's negligent behavior and downright mean.

[thefool_wa]

56. Oh, I hear ya.

I wonder when the media is going to realize that RIGHT is better than FIRST.

[msmcghee]

83. When being RIGHT and LAST becomes more profitable . .

. . than being FIRST and WRONG.

The fact is that being RIGHT rather than WRONG is far down on the wish-list of the majority of news consumers. They love to be titillated and have their personal beliefs (like in God) massaged by a media that knows what buzzwords to use.

While I'm sure this particular roller coaster ride was emotionally devastating for the families - it's just the kind of emotional thrill that most news consumers relish. Sure, it's sad the minors turned up dead - but it sure was fun for a while.

Does anyone seriously believe that the networks would put the emotional well-being of a couple of dozen family members ahead of the ratings available from millions of potential viewers hoping to see evidence of a real Jesus miracle?

I'm not holding my breath.

Furthermore - there seems to be a question in this thread of stunt or negligence. As Bart says - when someone makes a mistake and they end up making lots of money as a result - you can be damned sure they'll be making that same mistake again and again.

[northzax]

91. the stunt, however, affected US, not the families

they didn't go to the church because of a media report, the media covered that story.

I repeat: the story that they were alive did not come from the media, the media covered what the families were saying. the families already 'knew' And yes, I was watching it live all night due to my insommnia problem. The Media covered what the families were doing, they didn't tell the families the 'news'.

check the timelines, we got the incorrect news from the media, not the families.

[sonicx]

4. That's the problem with "thanking God" for good things

What are you supposed to say to God when bad things happen? :shrug:

[InaneAnanity]

7. Say this

Sorry god, I thought you existed, but apparently you don't.

Seeya!

[thefool_wa]

17. Thank You

Its all you can say, "bad things" are relative and you never know what may come of even the most trying of times.

[Ladyhawk]

73. God always gets the credit, but never gets the blame.

Reason #457 I am not religious.

[Poppyseedman]

5. Just how does one get over this?

Horrible situation. Not real sure of the point of your post.

[CornField]

25. I don't think "getting over" is the goal

Learning to keep going is probably the best one can hope for after a loss.

Right after a loss (expected or unexpected) there is this huge, raw, gaping hole blasted in your soul. With time, those edges will heal and not be as tender. The hole, however, never goes away.

[havocmom]

6. Been away from news, help me out here. Just who was it that told families

the twelve were alive last night? And did that short lived celebration give the mining company men enough head start outta the area?

[opusprime]

11. If we look at this logically, like any God would want us too,

we can see that God allowed the explosion to occur in the first place.

Why do we always thank the god for sparing a few when it whiped them out in the first place?

[thefool_wa]

24. We should always thank god for life

As he/she can take it away at a whim with or without cause. Its the way things work.

I've always found thanking god for saving anyone's life to be a trifle on the selfish side. After all the alternative is peace and one-ness with God, and all we are thanking God for is sparing us the pain of loss.

[havocmom]

33. Personally, I thank Gods for free will

and figure they are all to busy to meddle much in my personal affairs.

[JuniperLea]

45. Amen, Sista!

Remember how much you love that god-given free will every time some fundie tries to impose their laws on you.

God never promised a rose garden since he took man from the garden and gave him free will. It's all about the balance. Would you know how wonderful things were if you didn't know how tragic and dismal they could be?

I pray like a Pagan. Dear God, this is what I really want, but you know best. I pray for this or something better, for the benefit of all, even if I am too naive to know what the best is.

[400Years]

58. a concept can't give you anything

including free will, unless your speaking figuratively of course.

[JuniperLea]

75. We all have free will

regardless of our faith, or lack thereof. It's one thing that cannot be taken from us. We are all free to do as we please within the confines of our individual lives and our minds. It's all really in the mind.

[manic expression]

39. Not exactly

the explosion occurred because of a mistake a person made, or because of the fault of the company. That is the cause, and the effect is this tragedy we now see. It is not logical to expect anything else to happen.

People thank god because, well, there is little else one can do. Many would call upon the mountain itself to not hurt the people trapped inside, some would try to invoke the strength and ingenuity of the rescuers. There is not one way of connecting with "god", and we have witnessed one of many.

When one looks at the big picture, it is obvious that death comes and goes as simply another part of existence. Birth, however, comes and goes with equal frequency. From pain comes healing; death provides for life.

Just providing a different religious perspective. Carry on.

[havocmom]

53. And a fine perspective it is

:thumbsup:

[kath]

80. Supposedly lightning caused the explosion - sounds like God to me.

:sarcasm:

[manic expression]

85. What is that supposed to mean?

Why does it have to be one big guy that causes everything? Many people were saying that if the Union was still there, they would have had them out in time. It is cause and effect, not always divine intervention.

Must you look at it in such a superficial way? Because it is lightning means it has to be "God"? Please, lightning strikes all the time, it is a part of nature. This time, for some reasons that I do not pretend to know, it caused something terrible. People could have done better, especially with the misinformation, and that is another layer of this event.

Seriously though, what were you trying to say by that? I ask this because I found no insight in that post.

[malachi]

66. I think God was distracted by the Penn State/Fla State game.

His services were no doubt needed by PS in their triple OT victory. Their players and fans prayed harder than the miner's folk.

[kath]

82. bwah! guess those football fans were praying more fervently.

[annabanana]

20. IIRC

It was a rumor that started when they found one live miner... the news was mis-communicated and THEN the newsidiots jumped on it with their big stupid ass megaphones..

[AZBlue]

68. Who told them is not clear (last I heard).

Seems to be a rumor that started after someone overheard a phone call saying they'd found them and were checking vital signs. That person or people assumed then that they were alive and spread the "good news." HOWEVER, the mining company knew 20 minutes later that there was only one survivor and waited another 2 hours and 40 minutes before correcting the rumor...which leads me to believe, as you implied, that it took that long to reach their lawyers and make sure management was in a safe location.

[DS1]

8. Is this where the local fundie reminds them that

"God doesn't put you to any task he thinks you can't handle"

or whatever the catch-all bullshit repsonse is

[Clark2008]

31. No - this is the point where real Christians, who believe in Heaven

and who aren't Fundies say, "They're better off than on earth."

[kath]

81. but how do they know they went to heaven? Whatever little crutch gets

'em through, I guess.

[thefool_wa]

10. I feel for them

I really do, but God didn't take away their miracle, it never existed in the first place.

The news report I saw today said that the rescuers mis-spoke themselves and the news traveled like wild fire before it could be stopped.

God didn't blow up that mine, a mining comapny who received 21 explosive hazard citations in one year (and did NOTHING to remedy their problems) did. I pray that the souls of those lost find peace in the hereafter.

[MercutioATC]

13. It was NEVER a "miracle". It was shoddy reporting.

The media outlets, in a rush to scoop everybody else, reported early (and false) reports without getting confirmation first. It happens all of the time. I'm not trying to sound crass, but those miners were dead when they were found...there never WAS any "miracle" to be "taken away".

[riverwalker]

18. the preacher wanted his miracle

from the accounts I have heard, the state troopers went to the church and told the preacher that they were dead, but he never relayed the message.

[WernhamHogg]

60. From what one of the troopers said on TV yesterday

The troopers were told to go to the church and tell the clergy to prepare the celebrating families for the *possibility* that the 12 were NOT alive. According to the trooper, neither the troopers nor the clergy members were instructed to tell the families the actual news.

[elehhhhna]

19. Jesus checked their voting records & changed his mind.

[thefool_wa]

Harsh

and not particularly funny.

[thefool_wa]

26. Harsh

and not particularly funny.

[MercutioATC]

30. I believe it was in reference to Pat Robertson's Dover comment.

...in which case, it WAS satirically funny...

[elehhhhna]

34. Thank you Merc.

[MercutioATC]

36. De nada

:)

:hi:

[thefool_wa]

57. My bad

no sarcasm smiley, hard to tell :blush:

no hard feelings?

[elehhhhna]

86. no troubles.

it WAS harsh.

[NoodleyAppendage]

64. Maybe not too harsh...if you consider the Old Testament god.

The Old Testament god was quite vengeful (and some would say...sadistic and petty).

JB

[SoCalDem]

21. A priest once told me

"The test of true faith is being able to still believe when the bad times come. It's easy to believe when God is sending you blessings".

[thefool_wa]

28. Amen

[Beelzebud]

22. A mine collapse is not a miracle...

If I had a mine collapse on my head, even if I lived, I would not consider it a miracle.

[CornField]

23. They will work their way through it

Although their particular ride on the grief train has already been much more devastating than any of us can know, they will go on with life. One day they will find themselves laughing at something and not immediately feel guilty for it.

As a side note, for anyone battling grief, but especially for those who are having a crisis of self/faith because of it, I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' book "A Grief Observed." It's basically his journal following the untimely death of his wife and it is very powerful. It isn't one of those happy-happy-joy-joy books. It's raw emotion -- his anger (even with God), his bitterness, his hopelessness -- and how he worked his way through it.

[Champion Jack]

27. Your miracle was taken away fro you

because god hates you and he wanted to fuck you over.
(psssst because he's a fairy tale...)

[Bluerthanblue]

37. that's what the fundies might say-

and your fairy tale comment is what the athiests do say-

i believe there is another option- but i won't shove it down your throat- as long as you don't try and cut the soul out of someone for believing something other than you-

peace.

[Champion Jack]

41. Maybe people will wise up

and realize that organized religion is one of the cruelest jokes ever perpetrated on the human race.

[Bluerthanblue]

42. it could also be said

that life is simply an excercise in futility, pain, suffering, endless toil,- with a few sweet times rolled in, just enough to keep you playing- what kind of a joke is that?

[400Years]

59. religion tells you to accept misery

when you should really be working to make the world a better place.

It came about the because the misery of civilization needed to be justified.

[Bill McBlueState]

71. that's why it's so insidious

People go around saying of the miners, "They're better off than on earth." Nobody knows that. It's just an excuse to make us feel better instead of working for safer means of producing energy.

[Warpy]

29. People have lost their faith over far less

but churches offer a great deal of social support from other members.

But no, I doubt many of them will have the absolute faith in an all good, all powerful deity they once had.

[SkiGuy]

50. They'll come back to Him

and God will comfort them somehow

[Bluerthanblue]

55. i don't believe

they'll have to 'do anything'- except be open to being comforted. That 100th sheep didn't 'do' anything- nor did the lost coin.
The peace that passes all understanding does exist. It isn't a 'cure all' or a numbness, nor does it take away all pain and sorrow, but it changes everything- forever. In my belief and experience. And it's available to EVERYONE. Not just those who 'deserve' it.

My hope for all who grieve, suffer, and ache is that they find comfort, peace and rest.
Life is never easy- anyone who promises that cheapens not only grief, but delight.

I hope they do recieve comfort- from a myriad of places,in a myrad of ways.

[Bill McBlueState]

72. comfort them?

I have a better idea -- this god shouldn't have allowed the mine to collapse in the first place. That would probably have been more comforting. But seeing how he was either unwilling or unable to do that, I guess he'll have to resort to plan B.

[karlrschneider]

77. That's really the nub of the whole thing, isn't it? If there was a

benevolent deity (or a plethora of them) why would we need silly things
like mine safety laws, seat belts, insurance, ad nauseum?
:eyes:

[Bluerthanblue]

32. man oh man, i've been there, and done that.... and found

out the very hard way that if you think 'faith' in God, is something that guarantees saftey, or shelter, or anything other than a peace in the midst of hell- then what you are really revealing is that your "God" is really yourself. Thinking that something you do- (have faith, pray, be good, read scripture, confess sins etc) keeps you 'safe' in this world, or changes the odds that bad things will happen to you, you have set yourself up for a fall, a terrible HARD fall.

If there is anything left after that- if you are able to look at the reality that life does shit on decent, 'good', nice- kind, people, DESPITE all prayers, and efforts to the contrary- (and i found indeed there is, a comfort, a place of solace and quiet,) you will have something no one will be able to take away from you- or that is 'earned' or 'owned' by anyone. Especially by those who say you have to follow these 'rules' to be 'blessed'-

I wish these families comfort, peace, and solace in their grief.

It is something we all struggle through eventually- unless we die first.

[roguevalley]

38. I don't hold people in the throes of pain for what they spout. They

have to live with this, bless them. poor things.

[acmavm]

40. Agree with those who say there NEVER was a miracle.. But I myself

think these men were murdered by a greedy sleezeball who only cares about money. Depraved indifference is the term I think applies here.

[FreedomAngel82]

44. Sad

Everything has apurpose for happening. Just because someone dies doesn't mean it's God's fault. Everytime something bad happens to someone they automatically blame God. Too much rightwing propoganda like with Pat Robertson.

[FlaGranny]

70. Can't quite get my mind around

"everything has a purpose." I once had a nephew, 7 years old, fall into a lake and drown. I saw no purpose, except to punish a family that had done no crime to warrant that kind of punishment. What purpose could there be for the tragedies and disasters we see? The tsunami, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, fires, and disease. The only possible purpose to such things is to inflict misery. What purpose is there behind murder, robbery, and rape? War? Only more misery. Is it God's purpose to inflict misery? Humans are not the only creatures to suffer these miseries and what purpose would God have to inflict suffering on the rest of the animal world? Those are some of the reasons I can't get my mind around the concept of God. The idea of thanking God for sparing you personally from a disaster that killed others is unseemly.

If all that sounds rather glum and depressed - I don't feel that way at all. I am optimistic and upbeat, always with a smile and I'm at peace with myself.

[Bill McBlueState]

74. same here.

I find it far more comforting to believe that disasters come about as the result of human failure or natural processes. The idea that there's a mystical being toying with us from afar, letting us suffer to teach us some kind of lesson, is unnerving. I didn't agree to be toyed with.

[ernstbass]

94. I appreciate your post

You articulated some of my feelings very well.

[DanCa]

46. Can we let these people grieve n peace?

I think people in both believer and non beliver camps are exploiting this sad event now.

[Perky]

47. Amen DanCa I could not agree more .

[MercutioATC]

49. I think there's a difference between "exploiting" and discussing.

I think what's going on here is a discussion, and that's a good thing.

[Rowdyboy]

51. They've lost family, they're hurt, they should be left alone.....

They're not politicians, they don't represent the church or the state or miners or anything. They're just average people in hideous pain and should be allowed to mourn in private. Sadly, Americans are no longer capable of that sort of decent behavior.

[ismnotwasm]

48. My heart goes out to the grieving families, but

I've always had a HUGE problem with the idea that God, whoever it/she/he may or may not be intervenes directly, "curing" or "warning" or "saving" some people, when as a nurse I see people with their own personal miracles taken away every day. I'm not a believer, but I can't see God picking and choosing like some sort of micro-manager.

I've seen incredible things happen to people, those "I should have been dead" stories. People often think a God has something to do with it.

And I always think, There is a child somewhere, right now, who is being tortured, starved, sexually abused. Right now, a child is going through more torment than anyone, Jesus included, should have to endure. Morbid, I know.

I love the grace through suffering I've seen in people of faith, I've seen them question their God, and come to terms with injury, illness, death, despair, grief. I don't know how, but it seems at the darkest moments, they reach out and find comfort, love and ultimately, acceptance. If I ever envy people of faith, it's at those times. My favorite people of faith (as well as those without) are those who use those experiences to help other human beings through their own suffering.

[tlsmith1963]

52. I Hope They See the Truth

That this happened because the influence of unions has been almost completely destroyed. If those workers had been in a union, this might not have happened. These people need to stop voting Republican. All they are doing is destroying themselves because of the uncaring jerks they put in office.

Tammy

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mattomjoe]

61. They could look to Tony Dungy as an example of someone who

still has a strong sense of faith in the face of going through what is likely the darkest time of his life.

[leftofthedial]

62. There'll be pie in the sky by and by

By and by

[NoodleyAppendage]

63. Reality is a bitch. Also, some of these Xtians also threatened violence.

While I emphathize with the tragedy of the miners and feel for their families, I found it extremely enlightening that the Xtian furvor and god praising shown after learning the false information about the miner's safety quickly turned to non-Xtian-like violence (fighting in church) when the news was not in their favor.

JB

[QC]

78. Yes, how silly of these people to get so upset just because

their loved ones died. How crude these "Xtians" are! :eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

67. It has changed from "praise the Lord" to "praise the lawyers"

Pretty sure they are all lawyered up by now. And that is a very good thing too. I am afraid without an attorney telling some of them to cool it as not to jeopardize their case someone would have been murdered by now. Lawsuits are all good.

Don

[lpbk2713]

69. I'd love to hear Pat Robertson's take on this. Falwell's too.

No doubt they were all being punished for something.

[onefortheroad]

76. There ain't...

No lord, that is.

[zann725]

79. Being "pro-active" helps with grief. Class-Action lawsuit will help heal

that "grief." THere were something like 15 explosions in 5 years in that mine. All kinds of safety violations (thanks to Bushco- friendly "safety regulation loosening")...and NO Unionization at that mine, I heard one miner say that night.

The accident, and the delay in informing families (as well as prolonged euphoria "misinformation") is sadistic, and inexcusable.

[peanutbrittle]

84. Christians understand that God does not intervene in every circumstan

Christians are supposed to understand that God does not intervene in every circumstance. Most earthly tragic events are coincidences as a result of man's world or acts of nature.

[mwb970]

87. So a relative dies, and they give up on God?

That's like if America was attacked once and got so scared it gave up its Constitution without a fight!

[Mutley]

88. I always feel sad for people who lose their faith...

especially when it's due to a tragedy such as this one. For those who are sincere in their religious beliefs, losing faith is almost like losing another family member.

[Heidi]

90. They weren't abandoned by god.

It's beginning to look like they were abandoned by a big corporation and bureaucrats.

[Strawman]

92. Let's put the responsibility where it belongs

With the fat cat mining execs who probably compiled risk analysis or cost benefit analysis that decided that it wasn't worth it to spend the money to protect those miners on the job. Some fat rich old rich bastard mining exec is sitting in his jacuzzi counting a big fat wad of money with a cigar hanging out of his mouth. Direct your anger at him. If I were one of these miners' family members, I'd be forming a posse and heading over to pay those people a visit.

And to those whose family members come home safe each day from the mines, direct your praise to the people in unions who fought those bastards for decades and helped bring about the safety regulations that * is gutting in every industry.

This is the work of men and women, not God.

[sweetheart]

93. the miracle of wilbur ross

http://brickburner.blogs.com/my_weblog/

Dead Coal Miners: Handiwork of Wilbur Ross, Billionaire Industrial Ghoul

I did a little web research on the owner of the International Coal Group, the company that owns the mine in West Virginia where 11 miners just died. The excerpt below is from a long 2003 Business Week article on Wilbur Ross. He is a "bottom feeder", but notably also a big contributor to the Democratic Party and someone who has been close to the Steelworkers Union, basically negotiating a sweetheart deal with them to "save" LTV steel. His relationship with the UMWA has not been friendly, they have bitterly protested the bankruptcy regulations that have allowed him to set up the International Coal Group free of unions, health care and pensions. And safety, evidently.

Further googling reveals that Ross is setting up an automotive parts group to continue his career as a industrial ghoul. Delphi is on his radar screen. Auto workers beware!