What would America be like today if Regan had not been president?

[gunsaximbo]

I'm looking for real inteligent discussion and disection here. I hope I get some serious posts regarding this.

[Skittles]

1. much, much better

it was Reagan who made idiocy fashionable in America

[FoxNewsSucks]

2. if only Reagan hadn't been president

We'd still have the Fairness Doctrine.
No pill-popping Rush Limbaugh, no parrot Sean Hannity, no falafel-boy Bill O'Reilly, no Gamblin' Bill Bennett, no Fox "News". . .

God, what a difference that one thing alone would have made.

[Art_from_Ark]

3. Reagan also resurrected the policy of

appointing incompetent political hacks to important government positions :mad:

[SoCalDem]

4. We might actually still have them, BUT

they would be balanced by an equally strong voice to the contrary

[Erika]

5. Please spell his name right and you might have

a better discourse. I think he had the same puppeteers as W. His worship of the wealthy was obscene and un Christian. He was the first Republican to say the poor need to be persecuted and the rich rewarded.

Wonder who he answered to when he made the passing.

[fknobbit]

24. The greedy

"Wonder who he answered to when he made the passing".

That is to say todays Republican. He confirmed for them the belief that greed was OK. God how they loved him for it, even my fundie sister. I can not convince her that Jesus was not a repuke persona.

[gunsaximbo]

41. sorry you're right ... Reagan

[godai]

58. Actually, it's RAYGUN (EOM)

[Texacrat]

6. Don Regan was never President

n/t

[gunsaximbo]

43. That is all you had to offer to this discussion? Why bother?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[Crazy Guggenheim]

17. I think Reagan's body should then cremated and kept in a hazardous

waste facility.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :rofl:

[Warchild]

kept in a hazardous waste facility?

Would you be averse to having them bagged up in a hefty bag and shot into the heart of the sun via the next NASA missio to study solar flare?

[Warchild]

29. .

.

[Warchild]

28. I'm really weird?

What's your sign

[Raster]

32. "...a wooden stake be pounded through both of their tiny black hearts..."

AND their mouths stuffed with garlic, and their bodies buried face down.

Seriously, ray-gun served the same masters as our current pupper pResident. He sold his soul for a chance at the big time.

[zonmoy]

34. shouldnt that be mandatory treatment for all bodies of republicans.

[WCGreen]

8. We would have still won the cold war....

Cause it wasn't RR that did it...

It was Lech Walesa (sp)... Pope John Paul 11.... Chernoval (sp)... Levi's... Billy Joel and Elton John in Moscow.... The free fl;ow of information across the Iron Curtain... Tito dying....

The military build up had something to do with it....

But not as much as the people in Conservatives in the US would have us believe....

[Erika]

12. Reagan knocked the hell out of our social programs

He had health care in his disease that he denied ordinary Americans. He was an actor with a sale to be made but unfortunately he suckered in our people to hurt the poor and help the rich. W has followed his legacy.

The truth about Reagan needs to be told.

[WCGreen]

13. You are right... At the end...

Even Goldwater hated him......

He demonized the working poor bu inventing the Welfare Queen from Chicago who drove a Cadilac and had 14 fake kids on the Dole....

I absolutly hated that man....

And I was glad I was in a coma when he met his maker...

[Nay]

37. He also was instrumental in letting all the mentally ill out of their

mental hospitals. Now they get to freeze on the street.

[fknobbit]

21. Afghanistan broke them, as well!

Think we might have learned something from the Commies on that one, huh?

[WCGreen]

30. You would think!!!!

[AlienGirl]

10. My kids would have had to settle for using "Nixon" as a swear word...

[radio4progressives]

16. LOL

:rofl: boy those were the days!

[omega minimo]

11. Betr spelers

:patriot:

[radio4progressives]

14. oh man...I was just going shut down my computer for the night...

this is a good one..

so many things come to mind right now. there's no way i could into all..

No Shadow Secret Governemnt,
No John Poindexter No Total Awareness Program
No Negroponte, No Death Squads/No Neo Colonial in South America
No Iran Contra/No CIA operated Columbian Drug Cartels and no NAFTA

Constitution in tact and respected.

Fairness Doctrine In TACT (no Rush Limbaugh run amok)
No Christian Fundies breaking down Separation of Church and State

Strong Unions - Labor IN TACT and UNIFIED

Wages strong, Free Education (access to all) Universal Health Care

Healthier economy, honest and healthy discussions debate, and less division in the country, less tribalism. (red state/blue state)

just a few things like that...

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. Now I'm really depressed.

:-(

[msgadget]

15. Please, you're making me cry...

:cry:

[Nay]

38. Jesus, me too.

That old rat bastard. I can't believe the # of people who still worship that monster.

[PFunk]

18. We've also be much more energy independent....

with a lesser dependence of overseas-especially middle-east oil. Along with a much more fairer middle-east foreign policy

[Hardrada]

19. No Bushies in Power

An unpolitical Supreme Court

[Hardrada]

20. Fewer Arrogant Yuppies

[Swamp Rat]

22. Happy Mardi Gras!!!

Happy Mardi Gras!!!

:party: :beer: :evilgrin: :smoke: :party: :beer: :crazy: :smoke: :party: :spank: :beer: :grouphug: :smoke: :party: :beer: :headbang: :smoke: :party: :beer: :dilemma: :smoke: :spray: :beer: :rofl: :smoke: :party:


:D

[TriMetFan]

23. Well when Carter was President our

National Debt was only at about $565 billion an going down, believe it or not. So I don't think we would be at the edge of going belly up.

[Chipper Chat]

25. If Carter had been re-elected in 1980

the hostage crisis might have drug on until the UN got involved, inflation would have crippled Mondale's ability to be elected in '84, and we would have probably seen Jack Kemp or Bob Dole elected - neither being the right-winger that Ronnie or Bushie is. Maybe the country wouldn't have drifted so far to the right, and all those flag-burning, anti-poor and gay-bashing bills would have gone nowhere. Maybe without the Newt-revolution in 94 with its rabid house managers, Clinton could have escaped Monicagate with a more enlightened and jaded public? Gore would have been elected easily in 2000. Georgie-porgie would still be Gubner of Texas. And of course in 2006 this country would still be "Eisenhower proud" or "Kennedy great" and be respected around the world.

[NewJeffCT]

56. Some good points

Inflation was still pretty high in 1984 with Reagan as president. I think real rates were actually higher than they were under Carter (prime rate less inflation rate)

I think if Reagan lost in 1980, it would have made a huge difference in the next generation - the fundies that supported Reagan were emboldened. They might have either gone back into the churches or else split from the Republican party. I think Dole would have beaten Kemp in '84 because of Kemp's conservativeness would not have been an asset.

the big thing is - would the Fairness Doctrine have been repealed by Dole between '85 and '89? That led to the ascent of conservative radio and television.

[Faux pas]

26. The 80's wouldn't have been the 'me' generation. boosh one

would probably never been president. I wouldn't had to look at nancy's face so much. Oliver North probably wouldn't be a traitor. And boosh number two sure as hell wouldn't be in the White House.

[alphafemale]

27. The hostages in Iran would have been home shortly after the election.

If Carter had won in 1980.

Alternative energy would have been further explored.
Instead of the solar panels being ripped off the White House as they were when Reagan took office.

Air traffic controllers would never had been fired.
The back of labor would never have been broken.

The mentally ill would never have been cast out of hospitals to languish in the streets.

Ketchup would have never been labeled a vegetable.

GHWB would have never been President.

And many other things.

If Carter had won in 1980.

sigh :(

[gunsaximbo]

42. interesting thought

Iran + war = cleaning up the paper and data and human trail that would prove your thought. Interesting.

[BrotherBuzz]

31. Christin fundamentalists would still be in churches....

and late night television minding their own affairs instead of meddling in politics.

[Oeditpus Rex]

33. We'd likely be closer to a cure for AIDS

The Reagan administration's failure to address AIDS in its early years was absolutely criminal.

I shudder to think what might've happened had it come on the scene with the government and political climate we have now.

[lakeguy]

35. we'd probably be free of "middle east" oil and the country would

be running on 25% alternatives. oh yeah, the white house would still have solar panels.

[B Calm]

36. The Labor Unions would be large and strong. Destroying PATCO

was the first attack against the working man that Reagan did.

[dorkulon]

39. No homeless problem...

No infomercials
No telemarketing
No regressive tax base
No crack epidemic (or at least it would have been delayed)
No pointless Drug War
No insurmountable debt

[blindpig]

40. We'd be making environmental progress instead of regression.

James Watt reawakened my interest in politics. Putting that batshitinsanemotherfucker in charge of Interior like to drove me insane. The only thing crazier is the way his views have become mainstreamed. Just one of Reagan's crimes against the earth and humanity to be sure but one that will be affecting us far into the future. Though he wasn't nearly as effective in implementing his big and evil plans as he'd have liked he sure as hell set the tone for subsequent reich wing policy.

Reagan was bu$h's true father. I hate those fuckers forever.

[gunsaximbo]

44. I believe that Reagan had alzheimers from the start and

not only he, but the entire Country was taken advantage of by many of the people in power today and they are cleaning up the paper trails, the data trails and the human trails to the pseudo coup.

I'm telling you I'm right about this.

Gunsaximbo

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. "Morning in America" has become America's and the world's nightmare.

Flagwaving jingoism, the promotion of capitalism as the answer to all, the reduction of politics to "good old boy" anti-intellectualism, thinly veiled racism, and all that plays to the very worst instincts of people.

Which, sadly, has become the standard for most politicians.

[onenote]

46. there is no way to answer this question

The fact is that Jimmy Carter lost to Reagan big time. If the assumption of the question is that Carter defeats Reagan, you have to hypothesize the existance of a much different set of circumstances than really occurred. For example, you'd have to hypothesize away the highest interest rates in 30 years, an energy crisis, the Iranian hostage taking and the failure of the attempt to rescue the hostages. All of those things contributed ot Carter's defeat. So predicting a Reagan-less future would require predicting a much different past and that's simply unrealistic.

The other alternative is to accept the reality that existed in November 1980 but assume that the repubs nominated someone other than Reagan. What the country would be like today if someone other than Reagan had been elected depends on who that someone other than Reagan is. The other repubs seeking the presidency in 1980 included Bob Dole, Howard Baker, John Anderson, George Bush and Phil Crane. How any of them would've done as president and how it would've impacted the country today is anyone's guess.

onenote

[alphafemale]

50. Carter had adult solutions to the problems he inherited

They required sacrifice and long term planning.

Then along came the HOO-AH! Greed is good!
Learn'in is Sinful!

Sigh.

[Douglas Carpenter]

54. in spite of those problems -- Carter was almost neck and neck in the polls

in the last week prior to the election.

link:

http://www.ncpp.org/1936-2000.htm

[NewJeffCT]

55. Reagan barely got 50% of the vote

because of moderate John Anderson in the race... who would have gotten those votes if Anderson didn't run? My father normally votes for the Democrat, but didn't like Carter or Reagan, so voted Anderson. I'm almost positive he'd never have voted for Reagan.

The failed rescue attempt of the hostages doomed Carter, who was leading in the polls until around that time. It enhanced his image as incompetent and indecisive.

Two small things could have tipped the scales big time.

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. that's true-final result: Reagan 50.7%/Carter 41%/Anderson 6.6%

link:

http://www.answers.com/topic/u-s-presidential-election-1980

[teamster633]

59. There is the little question about why the hostages were held...

...as long as they were. And the troubling coincidence of them being released just as that B movie actor took on his 'greatest' role. Watergate wasn't the distant memory then, that it is today. The Republicans were still carrying a lot of baggage in 1980. If the hostages had come home before Election Day, Carter would have won. If that dim-witted hack(Raygun), or anyone in his administration(read GHWB), had anything to do with extending the hostages' confinement, that election was stolen as surely as shrub stole the election of 2000. And I'm speaking as someone who was snookered into voting against his best interests. It was the one time in my life that I ever voted for a Republican. The never-ending hostage crisis just wore me down. I cried uncle and voted for the clown. It seemed as though the office of the POTUS was just for show. Who better to fill it than an actor?

1984 is harder to explain. I certainly had learned my lesson long before then and would never have considered voting for that embarrassing old man again. Some point to his 'heroic' recovery from the assassination attempt. Others may have been seduced by all his happy 'morning in America' talk. Some took comfort in the thought that maybe things were just as black and white as the Gipper claimed they were: that we were righteous and that the Commies were evil. Shades of gray are much more difficult to deal with. In any event, Reagan somehow did win over the American public between 1980 and 1984. The relevant question is, however, whether he could have done it without the 'October Surprise' of 1980 allowing him to ascend to power. What is for certain, is that the world would be a different, better place, if Ronald Reagan had stayed in California, having only betrayed his fellow actors in the Fifties, rather than betraying the entire country in the Eighties.

[Ikonoklast]

61. I am still angry at the Teamsters for their support

of Raygun. I could only surmise that the leadership did everything in their power to deliver the memberships' votes in order for Justice to back off of them.

What I can't believe is that so many thinking people in labor voted for that old fraud. They cut their own throats.

[gunsaximbo]

66. And now they are paying for it . But...

You know what... They are still supporting the pukes - maybe not as as a group but the individuals are voting puke. That's the truth in many unions.

How do you think Bush got into office in the first place. Gephardt was abandoned by the unions and he was their most vocal supporter.

[Ikonoklast]

70. Wedge issues got union members to self-destruct

There were many of our members (UFCW) that only voted single-issue. Many are now without jobs because of that.

They might not have a job, but they still get to keep their guns.

Jerks.

[benEzra]

74. If Feinstein et al would lay off of gun owners, it wouldnt be such a wedge

Wedge issues got union members to self-destruct
Posted by Ikonoklast


There were many of our members (UFCW) that only voted single-issue. Many are now without jobs because of that.

They might not have a job, but they still get to keep their guns.

If Feinstein et al would lay off of gun owners, the gun issue wouldn't be such a tremendous wedge issue. IIRC, around 50% of union members in TN and WV voted repub in 2000 and 2004. Around 80% of union members in these states own guns. The "talk up hunting while demonizing owners of nonhunting guns" strategy was an unmitigated disaster in pro-gun states.

The you're-only-allowed-to-own-hunting-guns mantra hurts the party badly, but a lot of the blame has to go to the gun-404 party strategists who decided to make banning more guns a national issue. Gun-owning union members weren't the ones who decided to raise the issue; the prohibitionists did.

[gunsaximbo]

75. I agree.

As a Democratic Candidate for State Rep in Illinois, I believe that the second amendment is a very important amendment to the constitution. Although I do not own a gun and have never fired a gun, I still believe that everyone has a right to own a gun, a rifle, a shot gun, and even an automatic rifle. I know I'll catch hell for that belief but it is the 2nd amendment.

I believe that this is one of the single most NON IMPORTANT issues that Democrats needed to leave alone. There are A LOT of Dems just like me, who believe in the 2nd amendment.

Gunsaximbo

<http://www.serra06.com>

[Jara sang]

47. Reagan sold out his fellow actor's during the Hollywood witch hunts

Under the House Un-American Activities Committee. That was the beginning of his political career. He was a political slimball. Reagan also fired all the air traffic controllers, naming Washington National Airport for him is a monument to Republican hypocrisy.

[Initech]

48. We wouldnt be at war with Iraq

And even if we were, people would be far more concerned about the fact that there's a war going on instead of being concerned about the fact that there's a movie about gay cowboys.

Also we wouldnt have to deal with insane idiots like Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Robertson, Falwell, Drudge...

[alphafemale]

49. AIDS would have been confronted almost immediately.

The Contras wouldn't have been funded.

There might be no need for a School of the Americas' Watch.

The Fairness Doctrine probably would still exist.

[B Calm]

51. Carter installed solar panels at the White House & Reagan

removed them. If not for Reagan we would probably all be driving solar powered flying cars by now.

[Norquist Nemesis]

77. Exactly. Carter had an energy plan and backed it up

Part of that plan included investments and incentives in solar/wind technologies. Not sure if they're still in effect, but we received tax breaks for the solar panels on our house.

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. America would be a less selfish society & Nicaragua would be free

The single greatest harm of Ronald Reagan was that his administration convinced people that greed and selfishness were admirable qualities.

His unleash of absolute terror onto the people of Central America which was condemned and convicted by the International Criminal Court was one the greatest crimes against humanity in the Western Hemisphere of the past century.

Here is a good article by Fr. Miguel D'Escoto a Catholic priest in Managua, Nicaragua: "Reagan was the Butcher of My People"

link:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5683

[Warchild]

53. Catsup would still be a condiment or sauce.....

.....instead of a vegetable.

[gunsaximbo]

67. I still say he had alzheimers very early on in his first term.

and the trolls around him knew it and took advantage... They ran amok.

[Thirtieschild]

60. For starters. we'd still have fairness in the media

Can you imagine that?

[NewJeffCT]

71. well...

Less blatant RW bias at least.

[radio4progressives]

76. sorry, but the fairness doctrine was not simply preventing "bias"

it was intended to protected citizens from state propaganda, distortions, outright lies, disinfo etc.. Rush Limbaugh and the Hannities don't merely give "right wing" bias, they actually manufucature lies, 24/7 365.

[jeffrey_X]

63. Well progress on the civil rights front would not have come to a complete

hault like they did with Reagan. I'm sure we'd see some improvements with inner city life and hopefully there would have been fewer inner city housing projects. Thus elinating the terrible environments that still exist today.

It's really a shame that these buildings still exist and that children are growing up in very dangerous neighborhoods.

I really think America would be have progressed much futher on the "race" side of things.

[Scout1071]

64. Seems like you are just trying to flame and run to me.

Seriously, what is the point of this thread?

[gunsaximbo]

68. to speculate and discuss & learn. What's the point of your post?

You don't like it? Don't read it and don't post....

[noonwitch]

65. We would probably have better energy alternatives

If Carter had been re-elected he would have continued with his energy plans, instead of Reagan convincing everyone cheap oil was here to stay (although, in fairness, we did have cheap oil until 2001).

I don't know how the hostage crisis in Iran would have ended. Carter waited them out. If he hadn't, they might have been killed long before Reagan (or Daddy Bush) could get his lackeys to work behind the scenes with the Iranians to keep the hostages through the 1980 election cycle.

[porphyrian]

69. Are we speculating for entertainment?

This exercise isn't really much more than giving everyone the opportunity to tell a story. That's cool, if that's what you're trying to do, and I'm sure some people will have some interesting guesses, but there are too many factors that we're aware of, let alone those we're not, between Reagan and now to do anything other than make something up about what could've been.

[gunsaximbo]

72. To learn...

[Orsino]

73. If Reagan hadn't been President, they would have had to invent him.

Oh, wait--they did. And they made him even more malignant.