Media also free to not print cartoons

[Kire]

This is a letter I wrote in today's edition of my local paper.

Media also free to not print cartoons
Monday, February 27, 206

In his Feb. 20 letter, Jack Hofschild writes, "As a member of the media in a free society, The Express-Times has a responsibility to publish the controversial (Danish) cartoons." To say that any individual or institution must do something is the very antithesis of freedom. It is this kind of double-bind, paradoxical communication that is the foundation of Gregory Bateson's theory of schizophrenia.

"Be independent; " "Question authority; " "Do not read this letter; " "You know that you are free to go, dear; don't worry if I start crying." These are impossible challenges, every bit as insane as the Islamofascist rioting Hofschild resents so much. Perhaps more so.

We are lucky these riots are in foreign countries. Why start traumatizing everyone here? I hope a better answer than "because I can" is to be found.

erik anderson

Hackettstown

http://www.nj.com/letters/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/news-0/11410172388140.xml&coll=2

[951-Riverside]

1. A child blown to bits over lies or Cartoons, which is more traumatizing?

[Kire]

2. Trauma is still trauma

comparing it to something else is a straw man argument

[951-Riverside]

4. There is a difference between being traumatized and just being a crybaby

By your standards anything could be considered traumatizing.

[Kire]

6. contradictory commands are traumatizing

I never said you shouldn't publish the cartoons, just that you don't have to.

[Texacrat]

10. Oh dear fucking god ...

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

[Kire]

22. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=536251&mesg_id=536318

[Oeditpus Rex]

3. I've said it a hundred times

and I'll say it again:

Everyone talks about "freedom of the press," but too few talk about the responsibility that goes with that freedom.

[f-bush]

5. It's all about where the money is...

corporate media doesn't give a damn about right or wrong, just sales!

[greyl]

7. You're free to be offended and peacefully speak your mind.

I like the arrangement.

[tocqueville]

8. have the islamists already won ?

1) most of the people that talk about the (Danish) cartoons haven't seen them. They are mostly harmless. Two of them can found as offensive, but they are not worse than the cartoons produced in the ME against Jews for example.
The cartoons are not from a RW conspiracy, they are not racist and can be considered as blasphemy. Blasphemy sin't illegal in a normal society.

2) Who is going to be traumatized in the US ? Probably not EVERYBODY... not even a minority. Except Christian fundies because they don't want to see anti-Jesus cartoons show up. They are the only one capable of rioting and burning buildings, not the American muslims.

3) There haven't been riots in Europe, only small demonstrations. The biggest was lately 6 months after the publication

4) the riots have only happened in Muslim countries and orchestrated. They have bben permiited by dictatorships that would not allow even minor dissent on the streets...

5) what the fuck are you afraid of ?

[Karmakaze]

15. A few slight erros there...

"Blasphemy sin't illegal in a normal society."

Well then Denmark is not a normal society - because insulting religion IS in fact illegal there - not that the government would enforce it in this case - part of the reason the Muslims are so upset. Now if Jesus had been depicted carrying an M-16, who knows?

"They have bben permiited by dictatorships that would not allow even minor dissent on the streets..."

If they have been permitted, then why have protestors been killed by government forces?

The cartoons themselves ARE racist, but more important is the European reaction to them. For example, they were published in Germany and the leader of the opposition said basically that freedom of the press had to be maintained. Not two months later the same man was demanding an anti-American (and in one scene anti-Jewish) movie be banned, and helped apply pressure to one of the cinema companies to drop it - which they did.

It's the double standards that have Muslims pissed off - and they have every right to be.

Finally the riots themselves have been no more violent than riots at soccer matches or American football games - which have been about things no more serious than these cartoons. Why don't we hear how all American football or all soccer fans are violent "footballfacists"?

Could it be that people are using these riots to make racist statements that they otherwise wouldn't be able to get away with? Well based on my reading of threads right here on DU, I would say a resounding YES!

[tocqueville]

31. about the "errors"...

1) blasphemy is formally illegal in Denmark, but as you say it hasn't been enforced for many years. It's illegal in Massachusets too. But it hasn't constitutional value. This shows that the blasphemy laws are a remnant from the past and that no "normal secular" society would apply them today. In most Western countries it is the case and in many of them the law has been removed. I doubt this laws would be applied even on Ireland or in Poland, the two most religious European countries.

Plenty of blasphemous Jesus etc... pictures have circulated and circulate in Europe, 99,9-0,1 in proportion to Mohammed caricatures. Just Google Jesus cartoons/images. Where have you been ? No riots for that, we don't live in South Dakota.

2) Normally Syria et al don't allow religious demonstrations. Last time there were in Syria, they killed a whole community. If they shoot at their own, it's because they don't belong to their party and because they want to show the world that they defend the embassies, simple as that. At the same time they orchestrate the dissent to show the world how much the Arab (Muslim) masses are angry at the West and "ready to fight". It's a show.

AND They STILL HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY THE CARTOONS PUBLISHED IN EUROPEAN AND ARABIC NEWSPAPERS (SPECIALLY EGYPT) IN OCTOBER 2005 CAUSE RIOTS IN JANUARY 2006. Have you a good explanation ? I have two : the increasing pressure on Iran and Syria and the fact that the Saudis had to divert the anger from their own over their catastrophal annual failure to ensure security at the annual pilgrimage to the Mecca, where hundreds were killed in a stampede..

3) Have you SEEN the cartoons ? In what way are they racist ? because one of them depicts Mohammed with a knife and the other with a bomb ? Offensive yes, blasphemic yes, but not racist. If a Muslim depicts Jesus or the Pope with a bomb, is he a racist ? Explain the racism to me. And even if the issue is dubious on 1 of them (unfavorable portait of Mahomet), show me the racism in the 11 others. One of them shows a cartoonist himself in dificulties in drawing the prophet since pictures of him are quite rare...

4) Anti-Jewish cartoons are racist because they don't attack a special God or Saint but a people. Make fun of Moses ? the Jews would be first to laugh and the Xtian fundies in the US pissed.

5) what I know of soccer riots don't set embassies ablaze of shoot a priest in a Church like it happened in Turkey.

6) quote racist statements about Arabs on DU please. If you have seen some, why didn't you alert the moderators. I'll tell you what the difference is between racism and a critical standpoint is :

"Arabs are dirty camel jockeys" = racism
"Talibans are fascists" = political standpoint
"Muslims are dirtbags" = racism
"Hamas is a terrorist organisation" = political standpoint

etc.. etc...

And if there were racist standpoints on DU about "Muslims", I'll be the first to condemn them

[Che_Nuevara]

9. 'Islamofascist rioting'???

What in the world do the riots have to do with fascism? Just because you dislike something, just because you find something extremely abhorrent, doesn't mean that it's fascist.

Come on. 'Islamofascist' is a Limbaugh / O'Reilly word. I think we can keep it out of these forums and come up with better descriptors.



P.S. You're from H-Town? My uncle lives up there by the old M&M-Mars property. I live down in Middletown (Red Bank area) in Monmouth Co!

[tocqueville]

11. islamofascism is widely used by European commentators

whose political opinions are light years from the the Christofascists you name. I think that is a good description of the ideology behind the Al Quaeda type movements : empire building (caliphate), refusal of democracy, belief that some races are inferior (specially Jews), praise of violence all that in the name of religion. They don't differ very much from the Christofascists type Pat Robertson.

Let's call a cat a cat...

and that doesn't mean of course that ALL Muslims or ALL Xtians are fascists, no more than that ALL Germans or Italians were fascists.

[Che_Nuevara]

12. According to your definition,

William III of England, Josef Stalin, and Martin Luther are fascists. The first two were sick f'cks, but not fascists. Martin Luther was just simply a racist.

Fascism is much more specific and entails much more than what you listed above. It's a very distinct political process. Who are your "European commentators"? I've studied fascism, at a German university, and I'll give you historians and political scientists who disagree with you.

[tocqueville]

17. fascism is is a "shortcut" for denial of basic human rights

doesn't matter if it takes the form of absolue monarchy, communism or religion, whatever it may be. I can agree that there should be a better word that embraces it all. But the loaded content of the word marks what you are really dealing with.

Regarding the European debate, I can tell you that the word is used in many debates, most of them not hold in English and often used by pundits with an Arabic background, mostly of liberal (US sense) or socialist secular ideology. So the comparison with Hannity is futile.

The debate of the exact definition of fascism is academic in this context. The fact that the extreme right wing in the US has basically the same themes than the Al Quaeda ideologues, is proof enough.

[Che_Nuevara]

20. Anyone who uses the word 'fascist' as a "shortcut" word

for "basic human rights" violations doesn't know what fascism is. It's a terrible abuse of the word, just like using the word 'traitor' to name anyone who criticizes Bush / the Iraq War is a terrible abuse of the word. A lot of people do it, but that doesn't make it what the word actually means. No political scientist or historian would submit to that definition.

The fact that the extreme right wing in the US has basically the same themes than the Al Quaeda ideologues, is proof enough.

Proof of what? That has nothing to do with fascism. While each may have some elements that are also found in fascism, the fact that the two are comparable doesn't make either one fascism. There's no logic here.

Regarding the European debate, I can tell you that the word is used in many debates, most of them not hold (sic) in English ...

1) If that's the case, then I very highly doubt they use the word "Islamofascists", as you originally claimed, and the words they do use may not necessarily be best translated as "Islamofascists", even if they structurally resemble them.
2) Show them to me anyway. I speak German and live with people from all over the freakin world. I'll bet someone I know could read it.

[tocqueville]

23. I know what fascism is, my father was arrested by the Gestapo

quit being so academic, but it's obviously too difficult

the extreme right wing in the US rejects democracy, human rights, hates other races and gays, condones torture, is interested only in its own profit, hates free media, want to centralize power around a leader, merges corporate interests with national interests, is extremely nationalistic-jingoistic, militarily aggressive and wants to expand its control over other part of the world to steal their resources. The only difference with classical nazism and Italian fascism is that they use a religious terminology instead of the "socialist one"

the ideology of Al Quaeda or similar groups is basically the same, but of course follows an Islamic terminology


2) Google a little and don't tell me I am deaf or blind

GERMAN

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se even :

Islamofascism
By Ali Sina

Islam is a religion with a very political agenda. The ultimate goal of Islam is to rule the world. But what kind of government an Islamic state would have?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina50419.htm

and UK

azeem.azhar
You are here: Home > November 2002 > Monday 4 > Denton's islamofascism
November 04, 2002
Denton's islamofascism
Posted at 1:36 in .
Nick Denton argues that "all that is needed for Islamofascism to triumph is for good Muslims to do nothing" and insists there needs to be evidence of a stand against violent Islam.

It is a useful argument. I have already provided quite a bit already. (In particular: that the former Indonesian president heads a liberal organisation of 40m reformist Mulsims.)

http://azeem.azhar.co.uk/archives/2002/11/dentons_islamof.html

which shows that the word is widely used in Europe and primarily not by right-wingers (and probably invented there) and the mere idea that the same word would have different meanings in Europe and the US is preposterous...

all terminologies can be discuted of course and I am aware that there are differences between classical nazism and the Iranian mollahs. But the similarities are probably overwhelming. And even if the word isn't "perfect" it's primary use in Europe is to demonize an ideology which is the opposite of what all the Enlightment stands for... The difference between the US and Europe is that in the later place the means of expression of the "freepers" (and specially of the religious ones) are limited to some blogs and obscure magazines and their representation specially on TV is mostly when they go on trial for breaking the hate-speech laws. Are you aware that if Hannity, Robertson et al and specially Coulter were saying what they are saying in Europe and were citizens there they would probably already be behind bars...?

and excuse for my poor English

[PBass]

13. I agree with the letter to the editor. Good job.

Printing the cartoons just fans the flames of hatred. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you're free to yell FIRE in a crowded movie theater. Not printing these lame cartoons is not self-censorship, it's human decency.

Sure, go ahead and cover the story, describe the cartoons, that is sufficient. Otherwise, it's like running a story about pornography and insisting that the paper shows actual pictures of porn, to "let people decide for themselves" and "to hell with anybody who gets offended" and "say no to censorship" because "if I'm not offended then nobody else should be offended either".

Right?

I'm really sick to death of people who think it's good to be deliberately offensive, for the sake of "freedom of the press".

[tocqueville]

18. the cartoons are not the source of the hatred

they are a pretext. For a very specific agenda under a specific period of time. But not publishing them when some deny the right to publish them in the name of "religion", is surrendering for the enemies of what all the Enlightment period is about... And the biggest winners are not even the Islamist fundies, but the right wing Xian fundies in the US...

[Kire]

21. Islamofascist is a term used in the letter I replied to.

by Jack Hofschild on February 20

http://www.nj.com/letters/expresstimes/index.ssf?/base/news-0/114041228613530.xml&coll=2

I can smell the chocolate whenever I go outside.

[dorkulon]

14. My favorite local rag...

Has not just published the cartoon, but gone all out in defense of offense with a "blasphemy issue."

I'm surprised it hasn't made more waves already.

They're lefties on most issues, but they do political satire, so I can see their outlook on it--and I have to admit it is damned funny. The cover alone is worth the price of admission.

Don't click the link if you're easily offended.

[Karmakaze]

16. So where was Jesus?

Couldnt find the cartoons of him anywhere - in fact there was very little mention of the Christian deities at all. Apparently they didn't want to offend ALL religions...

[dorkulon]

19. Look a little harder

These guys pick on Christians all day. Obviously, this issue was more about the Islam cartoons, but all you need to do is check out their archives to find all kinds of Christian-bashing. Some examples, all found in links on front page:

http://buffalobeast.com/52/rapturereport.htm
http://buffalobeast.com/62/god.htm
http://buffalobeast.com/38/pope.html
http://www.buffalobeast.com/82/EvolutionRock.htm

[EstimatedProphet]

24. Doesn't look like it bashes Christianity at all

It looks to me like it's bashing rapturist fundamentalism-which is debatable as to whether it is Christianity.

[dorkulon]

25. You could say the same thing about fundamentalist islam

--which is debatable as to whether it is Islam.

[EstimatedProphet]

26. Yes, you could

[Karmakaze]

27. Hmm somehow that seems a lot less offensive...

than depicting Jesus as a terrorist.

[dorkulon]

28. If you ask me, what's more offensive is

offering money to kill a cartoonist.

[Karmakaze]

29. What about calling for the assassination of President?

What about "Shock and Awe"?

Muslims are no more violent than we are.

[dorkulon]

30. And when Robertson did that...

He was assailed in the press, including the paper in question, which printed one of the funniest takes on the subject I ever saw:

http://www.buffalobeast.com/83/700club.htm

Come on, tell me that's not funny.

Sure we're violent--or at least our gov't is. The point is, why should Muslims be above press criticism when Christians and Americans aren't?

[Karmakaze]

32. No one said they are above criticism...

but what has been happening at places like DU is NOT criticism, it is racism. People have INTENTIONALLY overlooked our society's capability for mindless violence and made statments to the effect that only Muslims, and ALL Muslims are capable of such acts.

On top of that, very little criticism has come about due to people being imprisoned for denying the Holocaust in the same nations that "champion" freedom of speech over the Mohammad cartoons.

Double standards are NOT legitimate criticism - they are bigotry.

[dorkulon]

33. I wouldn't do that...

Our society doesn't seem to notice the mass slaughter of foreigners, and I acknowledge that.

But the Holocaust thing is different, qualitatively. I don't know about sending that guy to jail, but he is not merely expressing an opinion, he's spreading inaccurate information.

I do think there should be penalties for deliberately misinforming the public. If all this guy said was "I hate Jews" or "Jews are wicked and evil," that's an opinion and no matter how dumb it is, I think it's his right to express it. But when someone says the Holocaust didn't happen, or for instance that slavery never happened, that's just lying, and I don't see how lying should be considered protected speech.

[Hoping4Change]

34. Although I think it is a mistake to censor Holocaust deniers there is

a difference. Those who deny the Holocaust are denying a real crime against real living people. If the cartoons are offensive because they are deemed to be blasphemous, the crime is against an imagined entity, god. Blasphemy may be disrespectful but its not a crime against humanity.