Friend of mine works in Dubai pretty frequently. Oil business.

[Maddy McCall]

He said that Dubai is literally crawing with sex workers from all over the globe. They come there from places like the Phillipines to work as entertainers, and only after they get to Dubai do they find that they are really being paid to be escorts--the sex kind. And after they find this out, they don't have money to buy a ticket home, so they have to stay for the contracted length of time, and then they MIGHT get a ticket home. Or they might have to stay for another term.

Edit to add: When these girls get there, they have to bunk in "dorms" with other girls who have been tricked into coming there. Many aren't of legal age, and the "deal" is made with their parents to ship them there.

Of course, the parents are told that they will be singers or dancers at the clubs there, but they get there only to find that they are required to do something else, and that they can't go home until they've fulfilled their two-year contract.

If a man "falls in love" with a worker, he has to purchase the remainder of her contract before the girl will be released to him.

This goes on with impunity in Dubai.

Did y'all know this?

[LaurenG]

1. No

At least I didn't know it. x(

[Maddy McCall]

5. More info.

When these girls get there, they have to bunk in "dorms" with other girls who have been tricked into coming there. Many aren't of legal age, and the "deal" is made with their parents to ship them there.

Of course, the parents are told that they will be singers or dancers at the clubs there, but, as I said in the OP, they get there only to find that they are required to do something else, and that they can't go home until they've fulfilled their two-year contract.

It's criminal, and the government does nothing about it. :grr:

[FreedomAngel82]

81. How horrible!

So it's pure manipulation. Do other parents find out or do they still not know?

[ingac70]

2. Yes. And they practice slavery....

especially toddler boys for camel racing.

The UAE is run by sick fucks.

[BlueEyedSon]

15. More here: http://www.camelraces.com/

http://www.camelraces.com/

[wakeme2008]

22. Pic

[Maddy McCall]

26. And those children become forced sex companions to their trainers...

much as Spartan boys did to Spartan warriors.

It's terrible. :(

[havocmom]

47. And FOR other sick fucks

x(

[Kber]

59. And African girls for domestic work

Muslim law forbids the enslavement of fellow Muslims, so theoretically, a slave could earn freedom by converting, or at least, that's how it used to be.

In modern times, in some places like the UAE and Saudi Arabia, however, this particular muslim law is not as well enforced as it has been in the past. When commerce and conscience collide, it's usually commerce that wins, I guess.

[Divernan]

3. Neil Bush would love the place, if they have 12 year olds available.

nt

[Syncronaut Seven]

63. I didn't know neil went for older women

Sick fuck that he is.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. Well, let me tell you, the United States has no tolerance for this

kind of thing and the day we find out they're using our US ports to steal away blonde haired white women to Dubai for the escort business...well, I shudder to think what might happen.

[Maddy McCall]

6. I think it will be reverse what you describe.

I think they'll be shipping in young women (and adolescent girls) for the same purpose.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. That won't work. Too many jurisdictions within the US for that to

succeed for long.

[Maddy McCall]

9. Please elaborate.

It's already going on in the U.S. :shrug:

[The Backlash Cometh]

12. Anything can happen on a small scale in the US, but for there to be

the numbers and the overt activity, like it is happening in Dubai, not a chance.

[Maddy McCall]

16. There can be the numbers without it being overt.

Like I said, it's already happening here.

[The Backlash Cometh]

19. I have no doubt that it is, but I also believe that it can't happen on a

large scale without the cooperation of the FBI, CIA, NSA local and state police. That's a whole lot of mouths to bribe.

[Maddy McCall]

21. Depends on what you call "large scale." It's already going on...

and it gets worse each day.

http://gvnet.com/humantrafficking/USA.htm

Already many sex-slave rings in existence in the US. The law enforcement organizations you cite aren't doing anything about it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. If they're not doing anything about it, and they know about it,

you have to ask yourself why a reporter hasn't jumped on the story.

[Maddy McCall]

32. Do you not read the news? It's all over the place.

Google "sex slavery in the united states" or several other versions of the phrase. It'll keep you busy for hours.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. I'm afraid to look.

I having enough trouble keeping track of the other corruption going on in this place.

Makes me believe that people like the Bush family know this shit is going to happen so they don't even try to regulate it. They just make sure they get a cut.

[Tsiyu]

91. All sorts of people like illicit sex and turn their heads

as long as their own sins are hidden.

Judges, doctors, politicians, lawyers, teachers, psychiatrists, truckers, techies - you name it - anybody can get caught up in paying for a thrill and not giving a damn about the victim.

It's as rampant in the US as anywhere, right in front of you in some places.

[mongo]

83. That's a really misleading article

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves.

Better stats are found here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9805914/

Trafficking is a stubborn problem and a staggering one worldwide, affecting an estimated 600,000 to 800,000 victims a year. Federal officials say 14,500 to 17,500 of them are trafficked to the United States, where the myriad forms of modern-day slavery present an elusive target for those trying to eradicate it.

Sex slavery is a small percentage of that total. I think I read 20% somewhere. By and far, most women kidnapped into this country are put to work in sweatshops.

[femrap]

45. Crimes against women aren't exactly at the top of list

with the police, fbi, etc. Just look at rape here in the US...how many are convicted? DNA sits on shelves waiting months to be tested for a rape case.

And now...S. Dakota wanting women to carry to term the fetuses of rapists and their male relatives.

I am attending a Committee Hearing tomorrow morning where my state wants to reduce access to Plan B and RU 486. Next up is birth control. Get ready to fight.

The Arab Culture has very little respect for women's freedoms. Remember the Taliban and the public shooting of women?

[The Backlash Cometh]

58. I agree with you that there's an ugly trend developing in this country.

And the more you restrict women's freedoms, the more you begin to be trapped into a chauvinist culture.

[alcibiades_mystery]

17. The number of coerced sex workers in the US is astounding

Perhaps not openly, but the number is huge. It is in all western countries, the us included.

It may be more *open* in Dubai, but that seems to make the underground scene in the Western countries even worse, it seems to me.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Overt is the key word. That won't happen in the US because the

minute it becomes a story you'll have every liberal and every Christian Righter in lock step, fighting it.

[Maddy McCall]

33. No, "overt" isn't the key word. "Large numbers" is the key term, though.

And there's no debate that there are already large numbers of coerced sex workers living in the United States, the large cities of which serve as hubs for the trade of sex slaves.

I'm just in disbelief that you weren't already aware of this.

[The Backlash Cometh]

61. Maddy, I know it exists, I just disagreed with you that it was organized

in a large fashion - Overt. Something that was operating under law enforcement's noses at a large scale would not be tolerated because the common citizenry wouldn't condone it. I live in an area where the community went up in arms when a resident decided to throw sex parties at their home. Forty people would show up twice a week and they were all consenting adults. Yet, they were keel-hauled out of town. THAT's why I doubt that something like that would not happen.

As you said, the point we agree on is that such thing is not OVERT.

[RazzleDazzle]

74. You have no appreciation for how women and young girls

who are already alone and vulnerable simply slip through the cracks.

It's one of the reasons I have come to have so much respect and admiration and even affection for Natalee Holloway's mother. She is a warrioress, and it's only because of her that Natalee's disappearance didn't slip through the cracks. Not everyone has a parent like that, not everyone's parents have the means to be that indefatiguable, etc., etc., etc.

Plenty of women go missing routinely. I'm curious as to how many is too many in your mind?

I wish I could make you understand, but I'm sure I can't. Yes, NIMBY kicks in when the couple down the street goes a little haywire, but that couldn't be any further from what happens to young women and girls in THIS country than apples are different from plutonium. Women and girls and the violence perpetrated against them are still all too invisible in many ways. HELL, your own sentiment proves the truth of that: you just don't think it happens hardly at all, and it just couldn't happen in an "organized" fashion.


I hope one day you can come up face to face in a real visceral with the kind of pain and horror that many women and girls have to face in this world - including women and girls fromt he U.S. -- thanks to sexual slavery and human trafficking. Because your lackadaisical, disbelieving attitude about it only helps ensure that whatever problem it IS gets to continue.

[The Backlash Cometh]

86. Well if it makes you feel better tongue lashing, g'head.

I don't see myself lax in anyway. In fact, if I'm constantly harping about missing blonde haired women it's because I'm pretty damn sure that there are a few brunettes that go missing that don't get the same special attention. It's not that I want to see less missing women stories, but I want to know why some get more attention than others?

I know the answer and it's not pretty. You know on that Schiavo case? I told a right-winger that his pious opinion that it was a right-to life situation was hypocritical because he wouldn't spend a penny of his own money to keep a comatose black person alive. You know what he said? He said that he believed that patients like Teresa should be kept alive whenever they had people who had the money to keep them alive, and the desire.

So, you see, it's not about right-to-life at all, because all lives would be created equal and treated equally. That difference creates a little bit of resentment knowing that some people in this country get special attention, and that's okay for most folks.

As for women falling into sex slavery, I never argued that it didn't happen. Just that it was not overt and could not be traced to one large organization. Is that important? Of course it is. We have a pretty good idea that the CIA and possibly quasi-allies of the United States are involved in the drug trade. For reasons that I can't explain, that seems to be okay with this society. But if there was ever any determination that our CIA or quasi-allies were involved in the sex trade, the boom of the conservatives and liberals together would be resounding.

It's not that I'm being lax, but that I know that if it were controlled by one organization, it would be easier to eradicate, because the mainstream would not tolerate it, than if it were a lot of small groups doing the abuse. So my interest in this whole thread was to determine if it could be tracked to such a large organization, and the answer was no.

[bananas]

13. Maybe both

since we're now a third-world country, American parents will send their teenagers to be entertainers...

[debbierlus]

20. I agree with you.

There is already a sex trade industry in the United States. Just another avenue to transport people.

[havocmom]

48. Given a few years with economy constantly going down

and less opportunity... soon the future for average Americans youths who don't wanna join the Corporate army... US parents might be as desperate as those in other lands to send their kids off to pursue careers in entertainment.

[Greyhound]

40. Just what country do you think you live in? The sheeple don't give a shit

and haven't cared for decades. We already have slaves, sweatshops, indentured servitude, torture, all of man's great accomplishments, going on. Where's the outrage? They only care when it intrudes on their lives, and then only as long as the intrusion is still perceived. This is nothing new and we're only talking about it to distract us from all the other stuff that's come up. :grr: :banghead:

[The Backlash Cometh]

42. From the research I did years ago, I didn't see the market for

forced slavery in America, because there were plenty of young women willing to do it voluntarily if the price was right. That's why you have organizations such as COYOTE, if I'm not mistaken.

[Maddy McCall]

43. What is done to sex slaves is rape. Often violent rape.

Men pay to rape and beat these young women. If you kill one, you pay up.

It's so different from consensual sex.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. Rape, is obviously a prosecutable crime, and if this kind of business

is continuous, then it must also be on the road traveling from place to place because where is this going to be tolerated in any one location for a long period of time? They will eventually be discovered because of the human carnage.

So, can you give me a direct link where this thing has been tied to one, large organization? Or are we talking about isolated pimps?

[Maddy McCall]

46. I never said that one large organization oversees it all...

what I am saying is that there are numerous rings involved in trafficking of many, many people who are coerced into sex slavery in the United States.

Links? Ok:

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2220869/detail.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2004/May/12-381449.html

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa061202a.htm

http://www.suntimes.com/special_sections/crime/cst-nws-mobslave18r.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/23/48hours/main675913.shtml

http://insider.tv.yahoo.com/celeb/1950/

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/25/magazine/25SEXTRAFFIC.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5007&en=43dbe6ef76e45af8&ex=1390366800&partner=USERLAND

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10113642

And those are just the ones I found on one Google search results page. There are tons more. Knock yourself out.

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. Small disorganized groups I can believe.

I imagine the drug trade has better networks.

[Maddy McCall]

52. Did you read the links you asked me to produce?

[The Backlash Cometh]

54. Do I have to?

I got pulled into one of these internet debates on legalizing prostitution and it lasted three months. I don't have that kind of time. I'll concede you the win on your efforts.

[Maddy McCall]

55. I don't want to "win."

I just want you to read this so that you know how bad it is. That's all I want. At the very least, read the NYT piece.

:hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

62. I'll do that after lunch. Thanks.

[RazzleDazzle]

75. What?

Jesus. What's in it for you that you simply MUST continue to try to dismiss and diminish this problem?

It's a horror for women ALL AROUND THE FUCKING WORLD. And you refuse to face it or acknowledge it as such.

As for carnage -- WHAT CARNAGE? The women slaves aren't exactly free to go running to the local cops (most of whom are bought off or are clients themselves). There's no escaping -- they're SLAVES. No one knows where they are, or that they're in trouble, and if they totally get out of line, who's to miss her if she disappears? No one. Her body can easily be done away with.

Maybe it doesn't happen in the U.S. or to American women and girls quite as much as certain extremely vulnerable other populations where the poverty rates, along with ravages of war and other chaos such asa refugees are found, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen here to young girls who are already prostituting themselves, having run away (usually) from (sexually) abusive stepfathers and such. No one know where they are, so when they go missing, no one knows.

IT HAPPENS. If it happens to ONE, it's too many. Your ultra-sanguine approach to this is becoming very frightening.

[The Backlash Cometh]

66. This paragraph is worth repeating:

Donna M. Hughes, a professor of women's studies at the University of Rhode Island and an expert on sex trafficking, says that prostitution barely existed 12 years ago in the Soviet Union. ''It was suppressed by political structures. All the women had jobs.'' But in the first years after the collapse of Soviet Communism, poverty in the former Soviet states soared. Young women -- many of them college-educated and married -- became easy believers in Hollywood-generated images of swaying palm trees in L.A. ''A few of them have an idea that prostitution might be involved,'' Hughes says. ''But their idea of prostitution is 'Pretty Woman,' which is one of the most popular films in Ukraine and Russia. They're thinking, This may not be so bad.''


We need to start asking if the capitalist system is creating social hardships which require a response from the community. That's where the Republicans' policies fail to address the fact that they create social problems in our communities that require a response that only Democrats are prepared to address. It's time to hold Republicans accountable.

[Greyhound]

50. "human carnage"? How many "bums" and "hookers" did your local

coroner haul away last year? The police rarely, if ever, investigate these cases, there are just too many and it would divert too many resources away from their very profitable "War on Drugs". It has never stopped here. Get out of the suburbs and see what life is really like in your city. There is nothing you can't get for a few hundred dollars, nothing.

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. There isn't that many deaths in my area, due to prostitution.

And they do publish them when it happens. Florida has a death penalty, and where there's a death, there's a reason for someone to make his bones. No pun intended.

[Greyhound]

88. I have no idea where you live, but I can assure you it happens every day

in Miami, just the same as every other major city in the country, and most of the world for that matter.

[mongo]

84. 40 dollars will get you anything you want around the corner from me

But it's not from sex slaves and most don't have a pimp, just a meth habit.

[havocmom]

51. Speaking of Coyote, only a different sort: do some research on illegals

coming across the desert southwest, the two legged coyotes who promise to get them here (for a price) and all the old, soiled mattresses found along routes in Arizona. HAve their victims chosen sex? Not so much.

And regarding law enforcement agencies, there are bad apples everywhere and in every agency. There have been cases of US border patrol agents getting a 'piece of the action'. There have been a couple who were tried for rape. There are plenty of cases of beat cops using their authority and tools to get personal info harassing women in the US. To think that the FBI and Border Patrol is gonna be able to (or even try in some areas) to stop the trade in humans is naive. There are bad people everywhere. Some of them have badges.

Women in the US want to be sex slaves? Not all of those who are made a choice. There are some who choose prostitution and I actually support the legalization of that WHEN ADULT WOMEN CHOOSE their vocation.

When under-aged or desperate women are forced into it, and thousands are, it is not quite the same. When desperate women and children come to the US in hopes of a better future, some are exploited by the coyotes way beyond what most of us can bare to think about. It is my understanding many women from Asia and Africa have the same fates.

Also, many young women working in US owned factories in Mexico are abused and some just disappear. In many factories, female workers are forced to take birth control. The bosses will say it is to make sure they continue to choose to work. Too many of those bosses just don't wanna have to take responsibility for their actions.

The problem is getting worse and will continue to degrade so long and the disparity in wealth keeps increasing.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. A couple of points:

I don't disagree that sex slavery exists in the US, I just disagreed that it was run by a large organization within the boundaries.

And just a question: What is COYOTE's position on this issue and are they doing anything to bring light to the problem?

[havocmom]

64. My reference to Coyote was NOT the organization

Notice the way I present the word. I am talking the Coyotes who transport illegals into the US. The group you mentioned several times, COYOTE is one I do not follow. You keep bringing it up; how bout you answer the question about them?

The Coyotes I mentioned are a bunch of scurrilous crooks who traffic in human beings and drugs.

[The Backlash Cometh]

65. Am I dating myself?

http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/coyote.html

[havocmom]

69. LOL You're dating BOTH of us. Stop that!

:D I know the COYOTE of which you speak, but not what their stand is on issues these days.

The coyotes on the border, well, I know a bit about their recent antics as I sorta follow that war in our Southwest. It IS a shootin war, by the way. Sometimes the gun battles happen on I-10 between Tucson and Phoenix as one group of Coyotes try to steal another group's human cargo (and charge that cargo all over again).

[RazzleDazzle]

77. Good post. One quibble.

And a big one:

There are some who choose prostitution and I actually support the legalization of that WHEN ADULT WOMEN CHOOSE their vocation.


I submit to you that there is no group of adult women who totally, freely and willingly CHOOSE such a vocation. None. It is a profession which is about despearation and nothing else, not fully self-empowered volition.

You are quite familiar with the kind of desperation that is urgent: "Whoa. Me and my kid are gonna starve before long if this continues. I'd better turn a few tricks." Or, "God. I'm 14, ran away from home, don't know anybody, can't get a job anywhere. Better take that guy up on his offer to have me work for him on the street."

And then there's desperation at a slower pace: the kind that comes from having no real skills, no education, no hope of a future (due as much to no self-esteem and growing up in hope-less circumstances as anything), PLUS the fact that prostitutes and other sex workers were overwhelmingly sexually abused as children. The word "loose" applies -- their sexual boundaries were violated as children, and so they don't function well or healthily or at all for them as adults.

You see, Patriarchal society has this penchant -- along with a very effective system -- for hurting little boys and girls in such a way that they grow up to provide this nice, continuous flow of workers for the sex industry.

No child wants to be a prostitute when they grow up. No one who USES pornography wants his daughter to grow up to be a prostitute (unless he's molested her or is a REALLY sick fuck). Nowhere (except one place, and I'll get to that shortly) is it considered an honorable profession, worthy of respect or emulation. The one place it IS considered somehow worthy or respectable is from the mouths of those who benefit directly from this exploitation of others, and the only reason they claim it that is that they're trying to defend what they do, which is profit off the sexual exploitation of others. Oh, they don't see it that way and in fact can often come up with all kinds of lofty-sounding rhetoric to defend and rationalize (e.g., First Amendment), but that doesn't change the facts: they are profiting from the sexual exploitation of others.

[havocmom]

82. Well, hate to pop your bubble but some women do make choices

you may not believe. Have met some who were not poor, not abused and not facing a lack of choices who made the choice to work in the oldest profession for periods in their life.

Pick the bone all ya want, I have met women who do not fit your preconcieved notions.

And I DID make it clear I was talking ADULT women, not kids or teens.

Not all of the human experience is what our experience or preceptions is. It's a big world and there are consenting adults who choose to make money this way.

What I can't figure out is people who willingly work in a bank or real estate Ah, well, different strokes. Personally, I think most employement can have a lot of abusive conditions and many works sell a hell of a lot more than their bodies to keep the wolf from the door. ;)

[mongo]

85. I'm sure this woman (and many others) would disagree with you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Hartley

[reality based]

7. This info needs to be sent to the churches n/t

[Solly Mack]

10. Yes. It's one of the reasons (I was told) that some companies hold

business/leadership conferences there. Sex is easy to obtain with any age group or gender - and no one will ask any questions about it.

World leadership conferences held in Dubai are advertised on TV here in Germany all the time - well known American names pop up as attendees and "honored" guest.

And yes, I always wonder - knowing what I was told...and seeing the names advertised. Now, I don't know that these folks engage in the sex trade available - but without a doubt, they know it exist.

[wakeme2008]

23. where is that pic that was on here of MJ there

:)

[Solly Mack]

27. MJ? as in Jackson? He lives in Bahrain

His name never came up on the TV as one of the guest listed at those conferences - mainly American and world business execs and Giuliani

[wakeme2008]

34. Not the one that was on here

but

http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&q=michael+jackson+UAE&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images


The one on here yesterday had him looking at the homes on the "new" islands.

[bobbieinok]

76. I 1st learned abt international 'sex trips' from German magazines

they were reporting about this publicly years before it was ever mentioned in US

guys go to SE Asia and Africa for sex with young girls.....I understand these trips are 'in' in Japan too

also in the early 90s German magazines and newspapers were reporting the plight of young women from the former Soviet bloc who came to Germany and other countries in Western Europe, were forced into sexual slavery, and found it very difficult to escape b/c they were in the country illegally

a few years ago NPR had some reports on girls and young women sold by their parents or kidnapped into sexual slavery in SE Asia.....some in the govts and the police depts were involved, therefore it was dangerous for any to go to the police b/c they did not know who might be involved

[Solly Mack]

90. Yes - I read about that

it was a guy from a well known security agency here, that actually travels to business/leadership conferences as security, that told me about Dubai and the sex trade there at those meetings.

He also said it (the sex trade) was all connected because the trafficking was well established throughout the world

Then there was "Sophies" - which was a sex trade "house" during Bosnia - filled with those forced into the sex trade. I believe Dynacorp was a part of it. Catered to soldiers and others - from all over.

[woodsprite]

11. Wait a minute, I thought * was against this 'sex trade' thing. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

14. Exactly.

It's for that reason that I posted this.

[Jeanette in FL]

25. You took the words right out of my mouth

As I was reading the post, I remembered that time * was giving a press conference and that was all he was talking about - Sex Trade. But I am sure he doesn't think it is the same "Dubai".

[Catchawave]

18. They put homosexuals in jail too ....

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10218234/

[wakeme2008]

24. they were trying to get married....

but if they were tourists after 10yo boys... probably NO problem :grr:

[TreasonousBastard]

28. Surprise, surprise...

that this is going on. Dubai is nothing special.

Italy, Israel and Germany are three of the primary transit points for Russian and other Eastern European women caught in the white slavery rings.

Prostitution and sex with minors is illegal in Singapore, but the guys who wrote those laws just walk across the border to the bordellos filled with 12 year olds.

One of the primary attractions of Cuba to some is the ready availability of 10 year-old hookers.

Oh, lest we forget our own pimps waiting in the bus terminals for runaways... Even the gas station down the street from me is reputed to bring Mexican girls up here under suspicious circumstances.

Sex slavery is a worldwide cancer and nobody is doing much about it, no matter how much they talk. Just how many of our conventioneers, Democratic or Republican, diddled whores who started out as sex slaves somewhere?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. This is disgusting

and extremely hypocritical. If, indeed, sex workers of "all kinds" are available and yet they persecute homosexuals, there is definately a double standard here-rich foreigners can do whatever they want with whomever they want (and when one realizes the sex workers are coerced, this is, imho, tantamount to rape/slavery). If UAE is supposed to be working from Sharia, then kidnapping people and making them sex workers is definately illegal-and if they aren't under Sharia, but pretend to be an Islamic country, they are immoral, for such practices are against the Qur'an's teachings.

[Yupster]

38. Here's an answer to the question "Is slavery permitted in today's world"

from the website www.askimam.com

It's a site where Muslims and non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam. Many of the questions are from Muslims living in the west and trying to keep as close as possible to their religion.

_______________________________________________________________________

"Please explain the concept of slavery in Islaam. Is it alowed in this day and age? If there was an Islamic government then would slavery be allowed. Please explain te issue in detail as we are not knowledge in the islamic rulings."

Answer 1928 2001-01-19

"Allah is our creator and ultimate Master. We, as his creations and slaves are obliged to express our servitude to Him Alone. If one does not submit his slavery to Allah, which of course is far more heinous and unjust to Allah in comparison to the 'injustices' of slavery and sexual relationship, etc. by a human master.

Since the human being did not willingly submit to the ultimate Master,
Allah, He condemns them to the unwilling slavery of his sincere slaves. And by understanding the powers of a man master, they may understand the Powers of the True Master, Allah. In fact, the concept of slavery should be regarded as a concept of mercy, as the heinous crime of rejecting Allah as our Master demands immediate terminating of life. Allah, our kind Master, has granted an opportunity to his very negators to enjoy a second chance of life and redirect it to the right avenue by submitting to Him as the ultimate Master.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best"

_______________________________________________________________________

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

67. the imam doesn't cite his sources

This is an opinion of one imam; there is a spectrum from fundamentalists to liberals in Islam, as there is in Christianity.

I wish he'd cited Qur'an on slavery; when I get home I can cite you passages, but I don't have a copy here at work. I know that slavery is addressed several times in the Qur'an; the child of a concubine by a Muslim is automatically free; slaves that are Muslims can buy their freedom; all slaves are to be treated kindly. I'll give you direct quotations later, and if I have misspoke, I will let you know.

One must also realize that Mohammed (pbuh) was called Abdullah, or the Slave of God; the idea of Islam is submission to the will of God, a total submission as a slave to a master.

[Yupster]

68. If you have the time ayeshahaqqiqa

Rummage through that site some and tell me what you think.

I've had it bookmarked for a couple years now and use it whenever a question about Islam comes up.

There was another question someone asked about slavery in modern times and the answer was something like that the Koran gives very specific rules on who can be slaves and who can't and when you could and couldn't have sex with slave women, etc. What I remember and it's been a while is that slaves can never be Muslims and can only be taken in Jihad. Then there were complicated rules on when you could and couldn't have sex with your female captors. Some of it depended on what the slave's husband's status was. It said slavery was not likely today as there was no jihad to capture them in, although I thought well that depends on who gets to call what a jihad.

Anyway, please look around the site when you have time and tell me if this is a reasonable site or a site that would only appeal to one tenth of one percent of Muslims. It seems to get a lot of mainstream questions which seem to come from a moderate viewpoint.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

71. I went there,

and will say that the imam is not a Sufi and takes what I consider a hard line against Sufi practices. For example:

It is permissible to condemn every action and group that goes contrary to the Shari’ah. A great Sufi, Imaam Abu Abdillah ibn al-Toobi al-Saqaly has said, ‘Sufism is not wearing patched clothing and not by crying when singers sing and not by screaming and not by dancing. In fact, Sufism is that you follow the Haqq and Qur’aan. You must have fear for Allah, full of remorse for you sins at all times.’

In view of this, the real and true Sufi is the one who abstains from doubtful matters and copying / resembling the enemies of Islam. The act of dancing will in fact be copying from the Christians. Kindly forward us the reference for your claim that majority Shaafi’ee Fuqahaa, including Hadhrat ibn Hajar, gave permission for this act.

One of our main practices involves dancing. Note too, please, the bold type I put in, where the imam is implying that Christians are the "enemy of Islam". I fear that to this imam I would be an enemy.

My husband also checked out the site and agrees with me that this particular imam is of the more fundatmentalist streak. Sufis are better tolerated at some other sites, such as www.whyislam.org/877/ where my husband often posts. Note that there are some that go there still don't like Sufi practices, but there is a broader spectrum of people all discussing things.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

72. Here's what the Qur'an says on slavery

This is from the Yusuf Ali translation (boldface mine):

Surah 24: 33
Let those who find not
The wherewithal for marriage
Keep themselevs chaste, until
Allah gives them means
Out of His grace.
And if any of your slaves
Ask for a deed in writing
(To enable them to earn
Their freedom for a certain sum),
Give them such a deed
If ye know any good
In them; yea, give them
Something yourselves
Out of the means which
Allah has given to you.
But force not your maids
To prostitution when they desire
Chastitity, in order tha ye
May make a gain
In the goods of this life.
But if anyone compels them,
Yet, after such compulsion,
Is Allah Oft-Forgiving,
Most Merciful (to them).

In other Surahs, if someone has sinned, it is often recommended that he free a slave as a penance.
Note please in the verse quoted there is no stipulation that the slave must be Muslim to be granted freedom. I've no doubt but that certain imams interpret things that way-as I said, the imam on the website you linked to is a very conservative imam, and not one who would likely agree with a moderate /liberal, especially a Sufi.

[Greyhound]

36. Yes I did. The slave trade is alive and well throughout the ME, as

well as most of Asia.

[Maddy McCall]

39. Dubai is supposedly the most westernized city in the Middle East.

Yet its owners (emirs) condone these atrocious, barbaric crimes. :(

[Greyhound]

41. So do ours...

[Beetwasher]

37. Remember Chimpy's SOTU Where He Mentioned SEX SLAVERY????

Just saying. Repubs are notorious for attacking what they are guilty of.

[MetaTrope]

53. Typical for non-democratic oil-producing countries

Happens in Brunei in Borneo also, for instance.

[Scout1071]

60. This also happens in Hong Kong, Bangkok and elsewhere.

Huge business. Many of the young women are from the Phillipines.

[GreenPartyVoter]

70. This sort of thing is rampant in the world

x(

[sandnsea]

73. Same as the Mariana Islands

Delay's little petri dish for a completely unregulated, free market economy.

[lanlady]

78. huge in Turkey and parts of Eastern Europe too

Oh, in Florida too. With illegal Mexican girls.

[maxsolomon]

79. Bottom Line: American Capitalism has NEVER CARED ABOUT THIS

they care about money. that's it.

ethical or moral considerations fall by the wayside.

do i need to list the unsavory governments we have done business with through our glorious history? do i need to list the unsavory practices we have ignored? the genocides we've pretended weren't happening?

sex slaves & camel jockey slaves & money laundering? whatever. american capital DOES NOT CARE.

[FreedomAngel82]

80. That's so messed up

And Bush is business partners with these people. I wonder if he's ever been there on "business trips."

[Lone_Star_Dem]

87. This would never get more than a moments glance here in the US

Americans are programed to blame the victims in situations such as this.

I suppose if they were gay it would be all over the news. The outrage would be screamed from every pulpit and news program. However, we're talking about women/girls being sexually abused by heterosexual men. They were asking for it. They knew what they were getting into when they made the decision, etc. Nothing to see here.

[xultar]

89. Yup! A lot of women; girls from Ethiopia are sold by their families to

the UAE and Saudi Arabia for slavery and sex slavery.

I have a friend from Ethiopia and the stories she tells of the young women being beaten, raped, disapeared...it is sick.