#2 -Live coverage of Senate Judiciary Hearing on Domestic Surveillance >>>

[meganmonkey]

THREAD #1 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=536981&mesg_id=536981

[liveoaktx]

1. Koh on the contradiction between Specter passing legislation

about Bush when Bush has already shown he won't obey FISA. As in "Let's pass a law"-well, there's ALREADY a law.

[rodeodance]

3. did you let BushCo in on this secret?

....."Let's pass a law"-well, there's ALREADY a law.

[liveoaktx]

9. YOU CAN WATCH IT WEBCAST HERE

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=1770

It's NOT on Cspan

[liveoaktx]

2. KOH points out that the law was EXCLUSIVE -would Article 2 trump the law?

can keep passing statutes as long as you want...

Patriot act irrelevant.

[meganmonkey]

4. Can you hit alert on thread one

so the mods lock it faster? I did it but it hasn't worked yet.

Thanks!

[liveoaktx]

5. Gormley-when matters are done in secret, there is no plaintiff

... give inventory of American citizens that are not terrorists and allow intel committees to determine if okay to release some of those names.

[liveoaktx]

6. Woolsey-FISA not constitutional when applied to electronic battlefield

[liveoaktx]

7. Biden- domestic to domestic- what's the distinction (to root

out their hypocrisy).

Since Biden was there at the time, he disagrees with the characterizations of the Bush apologisists.

[liveoaktx]

8. Woolsey-comparing 9/11 to a battlefield as an apologist for spying

on Americans.

[liveoaktx]

10. Woolsey and Fein fight- Woolsey says Fein misrepresenting Hayden's

statements, targeting people versus locations.

Fein smacks back about probable cause-distinguishes this from simply a data-mining operation.

[liveoaktx]

11. KYL-AG didn't do the analysis-troubled by that....

Distinction between domestic and international, what would advice be from panel?

[liveoaktx]

12. Heh! Looks like this will be a Woolsey vs Fein match.

It's the USE that's critical, regardless of where the information transited (switches)

[rodeodance]

13. Levin asking good questions about port issue

[liveoaktx]

14. different hearing-this is the Bush Spying on American hearing

[rodeodance]

15. Inhofe saying during last adm. we sold airplanes to UEA.--but then says

the deal did not go through. what a jerk

[Pryderi]

17. IT'S THE, 'BUT CLINTON....." defense.

[meganmonkey]

18. You're talking about a different hearing

this thread is the judiciary talking about domestic spying...

[kentuck]

20. Different hearing rodeodance...

:)

[rodeodance]

23. oops, sorry.

[liveoaktx]

16. Feingold up to ask questions

[liveoaktx]

19. Feingold-Legal theory used to justify purely domestic but also

warrantless searches of homes or even assassinations

[liveoaktx]

24. Youngstown case as limits on Presidential powers

AG -reasonable suspicion

BALONEY!!! REASONABLE SUSPICION VERSUS PROBABLE CAUSE

[liveoaktx]

25. JAYZUS- Feingold asking what limits to ASSASSINATION

that one guy from the midwest seemed to say the President might be able to assassinate people.

[rodeodance]

21. Inhofe is patting himself on the back about the china deal that he helped

stop.

[Pryderi]

22. WHY ISN'T THIS HEARING ON CSPAN??????

[liveoaktx]

26. Meantime- WEBCAST link here

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=1770

[meganmonkey]

28. I guess they only cover it when a Bushco apologist who isn't even

sworn in is testifying (Gonzales :puke: ). But when experts are giving sworn testimony I guess it isn't important enough :eyes:

[deutsey]

27. Interesting assassination example, there, huh?

Don't get on any planes anytime soon, Senators...

[liveoaktx]

29. That is just unbelievable-TWO of them saying President can assassinate

[liveoaktx]

30. Fein-YOU CANNOT SURVEIL OUTSIDE OF FISA-Exclusive

President has propounded a theory that would clearly justify torture...

This is like pulling back a veil on some horrifying sewer

[liveoaktx]

31. Gormley-Unless we're prepared to say that the Pres can suspend the

Constitution indefinitely......

we'd have to amend the Constitution

[ClayZ]

46. "Flack Jackets" anyone?

DAMN! This is un-farking-believable!

[liveoaktx]

32. Hatch bringing up the laptop computer example of Woolsey

Obfuscating the issue.

[liveoaktx]

33. Hatch insulting the panel "No one but Woolsey has a full understanding

of what's involved to get a warrant through FISA"

[meganmonkey]

35. Thanks for staying on top of this!!

:thumbsup:

[deutsey]

36. Hatch is such an asshole and responsible for so many vile things

[liveoaktx]

34. Woolsey arguing "Moore's Law",.. the technology changes things

[liveoaktx]

39. Woolsey" Not the president's fault we're on the battlefield"

Woolsey LIKES the moniker "Long War" better than "War on Terrorism"

[liveoaktx]

42. Specter-AG testified that program triggered only when NSA career

professional has reasonable cause to believe Al Qaida connection.

HOW do they make that determination?

[TahitiNut]

37. Orrin Unctious Hatch ... the Senate's Uriah Heep

It's appalling that Hatch persists in arguing 'reasonable' and PRESUMES a unilateral edict of 'reasonable' without adjudication! This is the "Judiciary" Committee? Without the foggiest notion of adjudication? Fucking traitor!

[liveoaktx]

63. I agree- the constitution does not say "Reasonable SUSPICION"

[deutsey]

38. It's not Bush's fault that we're on the battle field?

:puke:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

40. It seems I have been demonstrating a new mantra F*CK YOU WOOLSEY!

[ClayZ]

41. "It is hard"....

:crazy:

[liveoaktx]

43. Specter-clearly troubled by the career professional making the judgements

and so is Levy.

If we're gonna have a career professional making those judgements, all well and good, but make it to the FISA courts and more than one branch of govt.

Who is the target of the surveillance? NO restrictions on surv,.... IF the person isn't even the target.

[liveoaktx]

44. Specter- "Gang of 8" -heh, seems he doesn't like that either

Neither do I.

[liveoaktx]

45. Limit information to so-called "Gang of 8"?

Woolsey-left it to discretion to heads of committees to decide how widely to dissemenate the info.

Where the FECK did this "Gang of 8" thing come from? Hmmm, don't remember that from civics class.

[liveoaktx]

47. Fein-IF AG approached FISA court with info from NSA program

seeking a FISA warrant, I'm utilizing the following info we received from warrantless surv program.

Kyl-big difference between collecting intel and collecting info for criminal case.

Fein: I'm not addressing that issue, NOT for criminal prosecution. For particular search warrants.

[liveoaktx]

48. Kyl-IF intell committees regularly briefed, certified IG report

with any instances of inadvertent domestic surveill, that suggested that THEN the court ought to have a role in this....
HUH????????

So, is he arguing that the COURT would get seconds dibs AFTER congress?

[liveoaktx]

49. Kyl-existing program, briefed to intel pgm-IF there is domestic

instances, THEN, IF it decided to do so, would send it to the courts.

OMIGOD.
Kmiec- "deferential form of oversight"

[TahitiNut]

50. They're elevating a purely administrative/procedural convenience ...

... to the level of equating such people to the entire legislative branch. That's an appalling corruption of the Constitution.

[liveoaktx]

51. OMIGOD-I see the direction the Repubs want to take this -OUT Of the courts

and have the Intel Committee do oversight.

AS IF the corrupt Republicans do oversight now.

[TahitiNut]

57. Not only that, but not even the entire committee.

They're equating narrow and limited 'notification' (with the proviso that discussing such information would be a FELONY) to 'oversight' ... a total sophistry. Above and beyond that, they're not involving the Judicial Branch as an arbiter of 'lawful' and thus assuring that all impasses leave the Legislative Branch impotent - with absolutely nothing to enforce and impose compliance with legislative restrictions/limits.

[liveoaktx]

58. Essentially, having the info come to an "oversight committee"

perhaps comprised of a "Gang of 8" (who, like Pat Roberts?) would be THEM acting as the FISA court, THEM deciding (this group that doesn't usually even read all the bills) if it warranted passing on to an actual court.

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.

[TahitiNut]

65. That's exactly the point.

The Executive Branch consistently denies the Legislature's power to intrude upon anything that's within the purview of the Executive. Without actual Judicial review and a finding, the Legislative Branch has no accepted power to force compliance. Thus, they're 'arguing' the sufficiency of toothless "oversight" ... merely an OBSERVER status. The fallacy at play here is amphiboly. It's like a spectator at a football game has an 'oversight role' - even though they have no power to referee or coach other than if they were to rise en masse and DEMAND some satisfaction. At the same time, they preclude any en masse action by prohibiting discussion of the matter at hand - making any dissemination of the information a felony. It's an abomination of the language.

[maxrandb]

81. Not a Proud Moment

but it's like when the Cleveland Browns fans started throwing beer bottles onto the field over a stupid call.

[liveoaktx]

52. Koh-In what way has the FISA court stood in the way NOW????

They haven't given any instances of it failing....

[ClayZ]

Use ther POWER of the Purse!

[liveoaktx]

53. Schumer- Everyone is ignorant of details of NSA spying program

We need frank testimony of ...(people) familiar with program. What about people who expressed reservations? Will we ever hear from them? What about other papers besides the white papers that justify this?

[liveoaktx]

54. We haven't even gotten answers to our followup questions of AG

[liveoaktx]

55. Fein-Administration has concealed EVERYTHING

[liveoaktx]

56. KOH-Irresponsible to pass new legislation when you don't know

what was going on. ... New law for FISA when they didn't obey the last one.

[liveoaktx]

59. Kmiec-"Principled Dogfight between Exec and Congress"

I ask why does this need to be bargained about?

[TahitiNut]

60. I really, really, really detest Kmiec

He's a total whore. He employs his expertise in law purely as an apoligist and rationalizer of whatever authoritarian act is undertaken. He does not START with law and ascertain limits, but starts with the action and then 'prrof texts' and corrupts law to fit around the act. Detestable.

[liveoaktx]

71. Same thing with Turner

[TahitiNut]

80. Yep. They both confer a kind of Presidential (monarchical) authority ...

... that's absent the kind of Judicial arbitration afforded post-Marbury v. Madison. At the same time, they're all-too-willing to cripple the Legislative Branch with PRESUMED Judicial findings (i.e. unConstitutional laws). It's as though (Executive) ACTIONS can't be unconstitutional but ACTS (laws) can be. It turns the Constitution on its head - unbounded Executive authority but strictly-bounded power of the PEOPLE through their elected representatives. Appallingly corrupt.

[liveoaktx]

61. Koh-FISA intended to create a process in which evidence could be used

Has created a cloud.

Hatch-I don't agree with that.

[liveoaktx]

62. FEIN-earlier claims about NSA were without FISA

Elect surv can be utilized would take the teeth out of the 4th amendment.

[liveoaktx]

64. Hatch, you asshole, if it doesn't rise to the PROBABLE CAUSE

standard, then you can't use it.

He's admitting that the elec surv only rises to the "Reasonable cause" standard, which FISA won't use.

[liveoaktx]

66. So there it is, too..... we either have a PROBABLE CAUSE standard

or we don't. The Republicans and apologists as exemplified by Hatch and Kyl would change the standard to one of Reasonable suspicion, using the "Battleground" (including New York/9/11) as justification.

[liveoaktx]

67. I have never felt so strongly that we ARE at a Constitutional crisis

crossroads.

This is one of the most disturbing hearings I have witnessed yet.

[liveoaktx]

68. Koh-public has a right to know what NSA programs have been

doing on for the last 4 years. That's why we have FISA.

[liveoaktx]

69. Fein-limits on government doens't mean anemic govt, it means STRONGER

government (in answer to whether checks and balances weaken the govt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[liveoaktx]

70. Fein-bringing up DeWine's proposal in 2002 that the Admin rejected

[ClayZ]

72. The department of redundancy department!

[liveoaktx]

73. Leahy-not told if it produced any useful information, don't know who

was affected by it. IF IT HAS, the analysis might be different.

[liveoaktx]

74. Fein on Hatch's Reasonable Suspicion-we don't even know

what problem we're addressing.

Burden on the president

[liveoaktx]

75. Koh-if president thinks a law is unconstitutional, he can VETO it

He can't pretend like he's complying with it.. for four years.

[liveoaktx]

76. Woolsey-You Can't Tell the Public what's going on because Al Qaida

will know.

[ClayZ]

77. Not about to approve a program we don't understand... yeah sure!

[liveoaktx]

78. Bush is NOT going to tell unless they, like you said, TAKE AWAY THE MONEY

for NSA.

[ClayZ]

79. Purse Power!

[radio4progressives]

82. Audio Archive Link

Sister Affiliate station KFCF which broadcasts much of KPFA's programming also archives for 24 hours programming for the benefit of those who miss programming. Archives are in 30 minute segments.
go to this link and click on the first hour the committee meeting began: (6:00 am PST) .. the stream will stop after every 30 minutes you'll need to click on the next time link. (e.g. 6:00 then 6:30 then 7:00 then 7:30 and so on)

http://www.kfcf.org/