Should "Pappy" Boyington have a memorial at his alma mater?

[deutsey]

http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/28/uwash

Andrew Everett, a student senator and senior at the University of Washington, says he had little idea that introducing a resolution in support of building a campus memorial to Col. Gregory “Pappy” Boyington, a 1934 graduate of the institution and a World War II Medal of Honor winner, would result in rampant partisan bickering on campus. But, thanks to words and actions by both liberals and conservatives on campus and elsewhere, the lens of politics has now framed a debate that he and others say could hamper his continuing efforts to honor alumni war heroes.

SNIP

What disappointed Everett was not the fact that the resolution failed — he figured he could create a new resolution that could garner a plurality. Rather, he says, the ensuing political debates that have occurred not only on campus, but in the blogosphere and on TV shows, like MSNBC’s “Scarborough Country,” have been most irksome.

“I don’t like that this has been framed in absolute terms,” says Everett. “I think it’s wrong that this turned into a political grab bag.”

Soon after the vote, Brent Ludeman, a fellow senator and head of the university’s College Republicans, e-mailed an account of the decision and meeting minutes to Kirby Wilbur, a Seattle conservative radio show host. “Without me making this a public issue,” says Ludeman, “people like Hitler would be ruling this country.”

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[RagingInMiami]

1. I had no idea Pappy Boyington was a real person

As a kid, I used to watch Baa Baa Black Sheep, and he was the main character.

[Caoimhe]

6. I loved that show as a kid

Had a crush on TJ if you remember him, the goofy tall blonde.

[RagingInMiami]

7. I don't remember TJ

I mostly remember the opening scenes, the music (the military drum beats and wailing sirens) and the combat scenes, all which were really cool, especially if you're an 8-year-old kid. I used to watch it with my dad.

[hyphenate]

21. God

I'm feeling old!! I was 21!

[hyphenate]

20. Robert Ginty

He left after the first season. He was then in The Paper Chase with John Houseman and James Stephens. I had a big crush on him, too. I was visiting L.A. when they were shooting the beginning of the new season (and changed the name to Black Sheep Squadron) and was very disappointed that he wasn't there. I wrote to him (I'd sent him letters before and he had replied to them!) and he called me at my brother's and we talked for a good fifteen minutes.

Many years later (1991) I was working at Universal Studios, and met him on the set of the syndicated series, "Harry and the Hendersons" with Bruce Davison.

He married Lorna Patterson from the "Private Benjamin" series and went on to do a lot of directing. He's still doing that.

[Caoimhe]

25. YESSSSSSSSSSS Robert Ginty

He had sortof a B career but I really loved him in Baa Baa Black Sheep (Black Sheep Squadron). Hard to believe he was only there one season. You were way more of a fan than me, I never sent any letters to him or showed up at the set. I always liked the tall, gawky, geeky types. My husband glares at me as I write this, but I met him when he was an 8th grade 6'2er and dated him on and off through high school when he shot up to 6'6 then went our separate ways and ended up marrying him when he was 26 and 6'9", and always skinny, blonde-brown-red hair and cute as hell!

***on edit

Since watching this show, the Corsair has always been my favorite plane. Bar none. The bent wing looks like a bird, it is the most beautiful war plane ever built in my opinion.

[hyphenate]

27. Yep

I was definitely a fan. But I was also a fan of the show in general. Even tonight, I was watching NCIS and noticed it was directed by James Whitmore Jr. I even ran a fan club for the show for a couple of years. The producer (Alex Beaton) was a great guy, and at the time, Don Bellisario (yes, also of NCIS!) was one of the writers on the show. This was back in the 70s when we didn't have the luxury of instantaneous information and communications!

My brother and I went to the set one day when I was out visiting in January, 1978, and I got the chance to talk with Red West. It was kind of weird because I knew him only as Andy Micklin on the show, and I didn't know much else about him. It was only much later that I found out that he had been one of Elvis Presley's best friends.

The producers told me about another fan of the show. She lived in Buffalo, NY and created filk songs about the characters. I also corresponded with Simon Oakland's wife for over 20 years as a result, and with Larry Manetti for a while, too.

The show is now available on DVD. It certainly brings back some nice memories for me, because other than Star Trek it was my first big crush in fandom. With the extra involvement I had with the show, I learned a lot about the history behind the show and real life counterparts.

[Caoimhe]

28. Thanks I will be looking for the DVD of the show SWEEET.. ty!

nt

[hyphenate]

18. Greg Boyington worked on the show as a consultant

as well. He wasn't quite as good looking as Robert Conrad, though!

[Dunedain]

33. No he wasn't,

but he sure could fly a corsair.

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/NARG/boyington.html

[hyphenate]

35. That's true

And the Corsair was one of the planes that helped us win in the Pacific Theatre. It was more easily maneuverable than the Japanese planes, and no other American plane had the same flexibility. There have been a couple of specials on The History Channel about them and about the Black Sheep Squadron which have been very informative.

[Dunedain]

36. The zero was light and fast, but poorly armored.

By the end of the '42, our aircraft and tactics could deal with the zero,
and by the end of '43 the Zero was outclassed completely.
From that point on, the bombers carried the load of the war.

[NoPasaran]

2. I cannot understand why this should be so controversial

Of course Boyington is worthy of a a memorial.

[deutsey]

4. I agree. The man's a hero.

This whole thing is a sad commentary on the partisan sniping everywhere you look these days.

[Bucky]

3. Unless Greg Boyington did something seriously wrong elsewhere...

I don't get why you wouldn't honor a war hero. The Japanese were genuine fascists (the genocide in Nanjing alone qualifies them for this tag, altho there were similar abuses in the Philippines, Indochina, and Korea). Boyington stuck his ass on the line for his country. I don't like siding with college Republicans, ever, but it really sounds like the college Democrats in this case were knee jerking out of reaction-formation.

[deutsey]

5. To my knowledge, Boyington, as you say, was a war hero

I'm damn glad he (and my grandfathers and others like them) fought fascism and imperialism during WWII.

[eggman67]

19. Comments like this don't really help the cause

"Jill Edwards, a student senator, questioned whether it was appropriate to honor a person who killed other people, and said she didn’t believe a member of the Marine Corps was an example of the sort of person the University of Washington wanted to produce."

[Nickster]

8. Seems like a good choice for a memorial to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pappy_Boyington

Colonel Gregory "Pappy" Boyington (December 4, 1912 - January 11, 1988) was an American fighter ace who flew with the American Volunteer Group in China and later was the Commanding Officer of the VMF-214 (The Black Sheep Squadron) during World War II. He also became a prisoner of war later in the war. For his Marine Corps service he was awarded the Navy Cross and the Medal of Honor.


Medal of Honor citation
His citation reads in full:

The President of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR to MAJOR GREGORY BOYINGTON UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS RESERVE for service as set forth in the following CITATION
For extraordinary heroism above and beyond the call of duty as Commanding Officer of Marine Fighting Squadron TWO FOURTEEN in action against enemy Japanese forces in Central Solomons Area from 12 September 1943 to 3 January 1944. Consistently outnumbered throughout successive hazardous flights over heavily defended hostile territory, Major Boyington struck at the enemy with daring and courageous persistence, leading his squadron into combat with devastating results to Japanese shipping, shore installations and aerial forces. Resolute in his efforts to inflict crippling damage on the enemy, Major Boyington led a formation of twenty-four fighters over Kahili on 17 October and, persistently circling the airdrome where sixty hostile aircraft were grounded, boldly challenged the Japanese to send up planes. Under his brilliant command, our fighters shot down twenty enemy craft in the ensuing action without the loss of a single ship. A superb airman and determined fighter against overwhelming odds, Major Boyington personally destroyed 26 of the many Japanese planes shot down by his squadron and by his forceful leadership developed the combat readiness in his command which was a distinctive factor in the Allied aerial achievements in this vitally strategic area.
/S/ FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT

[deutsey]

9. I had no idea he was also a POW.

I really don't know what the issue is, here.

From the way he's described in the article, I admire the guy who proposed the memorial. Seems like his head and his heart are in the right place.

[Horseradish]

10. Boyington's Autobiography ends with

"If this story were to have a moral, then I would say: 'Just name a hero and I'll prove he's a bum.'"

Which somehow, in my book, makes him even more of a hero.

[deutsey]

11. From what I know of him, he's worthy of our respect and admiration

And our gratitude, of course.

As that quote implies, he wasn't out for the limelight.

[Narraback]

12. Thank you and welcome!

NT

[newyawker99]

13. Hi Horseradish!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bobbieinok]

14. when 'everyone else'was talking abt the shooting, Boortz ranted on +

on about this

he particularly attacked one female student on the student senate who objected to the memorial

he and his callers went on and on villifying her by name

[Devil Dog Dem]

15. Hell yes!

Those idiots at UW are a bunch of f'tards!

[Octafish]

16. One thing: We the People DO owe our freedom to Boyington...

...and all who've served the nation, not the ridiculous Brent Ludeman.



All his ilk ever do is talk talk talk and encourage war and others to fight.

[hyphenate]

17. Pappy was a real hero

Unlike so many in our current government. He first fought for the U.S. in China, which was against Japan just before war between the States and Japan. And then he and the Black Sheep continued to win victories against the Japanese during the War. It would be fitting to see a Memorial to him, but I can guarantee that many pukes don't want one likely because it reminds them too much of the cowardice of all their current heroes in this horrendous regime.

[hyphenate]

22. After reading the whole article

I come away with a slightly different thought. The two people who spoke mostly against the measure were female, and I know for a fact that most women/females I know in general (who are not involved with politics or history) are not fond of "war" in general. Alas, the number of women who even look closely at the history of war are few in number, as they only take away the main points and discount a lot of it by stating that it is only males who are interested in war.

My own interest in WWII is vast, and I did study many different aspects of it on my own, as it was not generally in the curriculum at our school, other than in the historical context. I found both the European and Pacific Theatres to be very interesting and even wrote one of my term essays on Guadalcanal. I think that if more history of the war were taught in school, and why we must NEVER fight a war like that again, more people would be willing to give credit to those who fought in war, long before many of us were born. It's not a chance to "celebrate" war, but a chance to memorialize it and make sure that that it echoes through history forever as to why war is not a viable option.

[sandnsea]

24. We teach too damn much war

that's the problem. If we taught more religious, culture and social movements that either cause or prevent war, that would be much more helpful. Who gives a crap who charged what hill because leaders were unable to resolve differences of opinion, or the people were manipulated by the leaders, AGAIN. If we taught our children how many times the powers that be manipulated them into war, THEN we'd never have another war again.

[SaveElmer]

30. Exactly how would you have resolved the dispute with Hitler?

Britain tried giving in to him and that didn't work. War is a part of our past, and in some cases was necessary and even noble given the circumstances. Just because we view its necessity in current situations differently does not mean men like Boyington weren't real heroes!

[deutsey]

31. It's too bad there wasn't an Internet back then...we coulda posted

stuff on it and stopped them Nazis and Japanese for sure.

Just look how successful it's been against Bush.

:sarcasm:

[sandnsea]

32. Teach more war

Because Neville Chamberlain appeasement or war are obviously the only two options we've got.

[SaveElmer]

34. That makes no sense...

So the person you oppose will not accept his demands being met, so something less will help? Are you suggesting we forget about these men who did what was necessary to defeat Hitler and Japan. It's not teaching war, it's about honoring men who did what had to be done.

[sandnsea]

23. Controversial service & alcoholic

I remember when the tv program was on that there were articles about his service, and that he didn't do anything more than anybody else in that squadron or at the time. He was also a terrible alcoholic, couple of bad marriages. I can't remember it all, but I do know that I was a fan of the show until I read a few articles about who he really was, and was completely turned off by it all.

Since I didn't follow the current controversy, I don't have an opinion one way or the other on the memorial. Other than there's probably a better way to spend a bunch of money and I think it's time we get over ourselves and WWII.

[SaveElmer]

29. Well I don't think his personal life should have any bearing...

There is no dispute that I have seen suggesting he did not deserve the citations he received.

There was some controversy surrounding his service in China and the number of kills he was awarded, but that had nothing to do with his citations.

Some of our most susccessful militray men have had very eccentric and sometimes unappealing personalities (McArthur, Patton, etc), but I think on hindsight we are usually glad they were there

He was a great warrior and I personally see nothing wrong with a memorial to him at his alma mater. That is of course, up to the school, but it sure seems to have gotten caught up in a juvenile pissing match.

[Caoimhe]

26. An ACE fighter,

During his squadron's first tour of combat duty, the major shot down 14 enemy fighter planes in 32 days. On 17 December 1943, he headed the first Allied fighter sweep over impregnable Rabaul. By 27 December, his record was 25.

A typical daring feat was his attack on Kahili airdome at the southern tip of Bougainville on 17 October 1943. He and 24 fighters circled the field where 60 hostile aircraft were based, goading the enemy into sending up a large force. In the fierce battle that followed, 20 of the enemy planes were shot out of the skies. The Black Sheep returned back to their base without losses.

Boyington’s squadron, flying from the island of Vella Lavella, offered to down a Japanese Zero for every baseball cap sent to them by major league players in the World Series. They received 20 caps and shot down many more enemy aircraft.

He was an ACE fighter with character. He served time as a POW. So what if he was a drinker.. from what I've learned of the US military.. most of our greatest leaders have been also.

This is also cool: Shortly after his return to his homeland, as a lieutenant colonel, Boyington was ordered to Washington to receive the nation's highest honor, the Medal of Honor, from the President. The medal had been awarded by the late president, Franklin D. Roosevelt in March 1944 and held in the capital until such time as he could receive it.


So what if it's all romanticizied, there ARE heroes in every conflict.

on edit: it was easier to find heroes when everyone wore a uniform and fought under a flag.

[deadcenter]

37. I'd have to say yes to a memorial

despite his failings outside of the cockpit. I read his biography about fifteen years ago, it's an entertaining read from a time when fighter pilots could be characters out of the cockpit so long as they could perform while in it. He did have a serious alcohol problem and he liked, maybe even enjoyed, brawling with people. I know two unrelated people who met and got to know him a little bit before he died and they both characterized him as an angry man.

That being said, he volunteered to serve in the AVG (American Volunteer Group) and flew with the Flying Tigers in China before Pearl Harbor. He fought to get his commission in the Marine Corps reinstated when the AVG was disbanded. When back in uniform he took a group of pilots considered to be incompetent and molded them into a cohesive and effective fighting unit, not in a rear training area but on the front lines. He grew up dirt poor and managed to earn a commission, and if memory serves, an aeronautics degree from UW. I don't understand why any place would not want to honor that kind of achievement.

The medal of honor was held because it was originally awarded posthumously as everyone thought Boyington was dead, killed during a dog fight over the pacific. He was picked up by a Japanese submarine, where, according to his biography, he was interrogated by the only English speaking officer on board who told essentially told him, "I know who you are, but if these guys find out, they'll kill you."

I highly recommend his biography, it is a really good read.