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"Punish all the guilty parties, whoever they are" LEDEEN Tells Raw Story

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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 12:47 PM
Original message
"Punish all the guilty parties, whoever they are" LEDEEN Tells Raw Story
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 12:50 PM by kpete
Conversation with Machiavelli's ghost: Controversial neoconservative talks to Raw Story
Larisa Alexandrovna
Published: February 28, 2006


In an exclusive series of interviews with Raw Story Managing News Editor Larisa Alexandrovna, controversial Neoconservative scholar and Iran Contra figure Michael Ledeen discusses his background, alleged controversies, and offers remarkable revelations regarding the Bush administration's "War on Terror."

Part one in this series of interviews focuses on current US foreign policy and how it relates to the neoconservative world view, as well as how such a policy can be seen against the backdrop of history. Ledeen speaks out against torture and calls for accountability at all levels, including the White House, should an investigation lead in that direction.

"Punish all the guilty parties, whoever they are, and do everything possible to prevent anything of the sort happening again," Ledeen says.


Leedeen, who is best known for his involvement as a courier in the Iran-Contra scandal, describes himself as a democratic revolutionary. He believes that mankind is inclined toward war and has a dismal, Hobbesian view of history. Against that context, he says, "I'm not sure Machiavelli was wrong when he said that 'man is more inclined to do evil than to do good.'"

interview at:
http://rawstory.com/news/2006/Conversation_with_Controversial_Neoconservative_0228.html
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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Way to go Lala!
I'm book marking for an enjoyable read this evening. :hi:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Accountability?
In bushamerica?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. He also said obl died in IraN and is buried there.


.......http://www.nationalreview.com/lopez/ledeen200601090808.asp

January 09, 2006, 8:08 a.m.
One Moment in Time
Our age of revolution.

........This historical moment is not easy to understand, since we are in transition from a relatively stable world, dominated by a handful of major powers, to something we cannot yet define, since it is up to us to shape it. It seems clear, however, that there is a greater rapidity of change, accompanied — inevitably — by the passing of the leaders of the old order. This is particularly clear in the Middle East, where seven key figures have been struck down in the past six years: King Hussein of Jordan in February, 1999. King Hassan of Morocco in July of the same year. Syrian dictator Hafez al Assad in June of 2000. Yasser Arafat of the PLO in April, 2004. King Fahd of Saudi Arabia in May of last year. Ariel Sharon of Israel was incapacitated by a stroke in early January. And, according to Iranians I trust, Osama bin Laden finally departed this world in mid-December. The al Qaeda leader died of kidney failure and was buried in Iran, where he had spent most of his time since the destruction of al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The Iranians who reported this note that this year's message in conjunction with the Muslim Haj came from his number two, Ayman al-Zawahiri, for the first time.

...........
— Michael Ledeen, an NRO contributing editor, is most recently the author of The War Against the Terror Masters. He is resident scholar in the Freedom Chair at the American Enterprise Institute
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't Ledeen on the suspect list...
for being behind the Niger forgeries?
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. yep...
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LiviaOlivia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. Another Ledeen gem
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 07:29 PM by LiviaOlivia
from doughypantload Jonah Goldberg at NRO:

http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg042302.asp

So how does all this, or the humble attempt at a history lesson of my last column, justify tearing down the Baghdad regime? Well, I've long been an admirer of, if not a full-fledged subscriber to, what I call the "Ledeen Doctrine." I'm not sure my friend Michael Ledeen will thank me for ascribing authorship to him and he may have only been semi-serious when he crafted it, but here is the bedrock tenet of the Ledeen Doctrine in more or less his own words: "Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business." That's at least how I remember Michael phrasing it at a speech at the American Enterprise Institute about a decade ago (Ledeen is one of the most entertaining public speakers I've ever heard, by the way).

Can't these creepy RW criminals keep their stories straight?
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. A very interesting interview, WTG Larisa
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 01:07 PM by stop the bleeding
RS: When you say you are not a "conservative," you are addressing a false distinction because Neoconservatism has its roots on the left, in socialist ideology, yet is closely aligned to the conservatives in the US and the rightist Likud party in Israel. Perhaps a better way to ask this would be to ask if you are closer in your ideology to Richard Perle, Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz or are you closer to Francis Fukuyama, who recently announced Neoconservatism as dead?

ML: Well I'm a democratic revolutionary, albeit not a socialist. I haven't read Fukuyama's latest writings, but I wasn't at all convinced by the "end of history" thesis.



I read this response as "yeah, I side with Richard Perle, Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz type ideologies"

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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Ledeen talking about accountability??? I don't know whether to laugh
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 01:12 PM by Catrina
or cry! He, more than any of the other neocons, publicly, in his own writings, advocated lying to the people 'for the good of the state' and apparently took his own advice while he operated outside of any kind of oversight, to push false evidence to go to war in Iraq.

He is also the one who claimed that 'no other region in the world more deserves to go up in flames' or words to that effect, after even Scowcroft worried about the effects of an invasion of Iraq.

To think that he, so rabidly anti-Muslim, has even the least concern about the torture, maiming and slaughter of Muslims in the ME, would mean you have to be willfully closing your eyes and ears as to the huge role he himself played in all the horrors that were unleashed by this administration.

These people are insane, there is simply no other explanation for what they have done and their total lack of acceptence of their own responsibility in the travesty that is the Iraq war.

Great interview Larissa and Raw Story. It's fascinating that Ledeen, already under suspicion and I believe, investigation, is willing to speak publicly at all, unless he's trying to minimize his own role in all this. Last I heard, he's still fiercely committed to the PNAC plans to invade Iran next, then on to Syria ~ and all that it will mean to innocent people in those nations.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
8.  A Great Get For RAw
But what a load of old rubbush, he is an arrogant, misguided egoist.

One thing did make me smile: "He describes his view of Paul Wolfowitz, former Deputy Secretary of Defense and now head of the World Bank, in terms of ability, stating that he does not "really know what Wolfowitz thinks, and I have always looked at him as a manager, not an intellectual."

"who never had the time or inclination to write anything serious, so who knows? He once suggested that Iraq was like pre-World War I Germany, which I didn't agree with."



"
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. I am impressed that LR was tough enough to be in the same room
long enough to conduct an interview with this person. What a tough lady! Seriously, WTG!
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Does she ask him about
his pro-fascist book he wrote in the '70s, "Universal Fascism"?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0865272026/sr=8-1/qid=1141151268/ref=sr_1_1/104-1120013-9538369?%5Fencoding=UTF8

These people ARE facsists.
They come right out and admit it.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Part III - she does
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. I look forward to reading that.
:toast:

You've done a service to us all getting this ghost in the machine to appear before us.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. why does he feel the need to do an interview with RS -
if you don't mind me asking. I just don't trust that guy at all, and it makes my skin crawl that he would be so willing to talk.

Either way - I am looking forward to the next parts in the series.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. I commend you for the article, lala
Great job. I, too, was wondering what stb asked about Ledeen consenting to do an interview. How did it come about, and, overall, how did you perceive him -- is he arrogant, intelligent, etc? Inquiring minds want to know. TX!
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. thanx for putting my thoughts in a better context n/t
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. I
Generally do not like discussing something I have written outside of the sphere of what is in the piece... but just to give you an idea: I do find him brilliant and challenging to be sure. He is hard person to interview because he is so vague at times with his answers. I have my thoughts on him, of course and I do not agree with him on most points. But he is very polite and actually quite funny.

At times it got heated, but open debate is what free speech is all about. As I said, I do not agree with him on most points, but I do respect his intellect.

It gets more interesting later, as we get into project gladio, war on terror, iran contra, and niger forgeries:)

Hope that helps and hope that is enough. Because I really would rather not say more than I have.

:D
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. And how 'bout those lies -- the ones all Straussians are not just
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 07:17 PM by RazzleDazzle
allowed but ENCOURAGED to tell so that they don't bother the pretty little heads of the masses with big, important details of running an empire and such?

Do you ask him about that? Because given that critically important part of the neocon credo, I can't/won't believe anything he says.

For example -- a crystal clear one -- Bush would say "punish all the wrongdoers" as well. And mean not a damn word of it since HE doesn't think they're doing anything wrong at all, they're just carrying out his policy. But the sociopaths recognize what language and attitudes they need to feign so as not to unmask their evil, fascist ways.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Again, part one
Indicates that more is to come. :)
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. excellent! - You said what I wanted to hear!
:popcorn:

It gets more interesting later, as we get into project gladio, war on terror, iran contra, and niger forgeries
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
55. Thanks much for your response! n/t
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. Based on his recent writings he will likely say...
that he is all for fighting "Islamo-fascism". It would be interesting to know his thoughts on Saudi Arabia being the center of the Islamic religion as well as the origin of much of the funding for Islamic extremism, and promotion of Wahabism. Shouldn't we ultimately be targeting Saudi Arabia, based on his views?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. I'd Be Curious To Know His Movtive/s For Giving The Interview
All of sudden these guys are talking, him on RAw, Fukiyama on KO. What's going on?
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. After reading through the interview....
it sounds like he may be warming up to the possibility of a Hillary Clinton presidency. "I don't think of myself as 'conservative' at all. Indeed it seems to me that most self-described leftists today are reactionaries, and have lost the right to describe themselves as people of the left."

This topic is probably more appropriate for an Independent forum, but the DLC (PPI) foreign policy is largely based on the same neo-something-or-other philosophy. This would not bode well for the anti-war movement.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. This was scheduled a while back and has nothing to do with
Fuki or KO at all. Plus, aside from hard core right wing folks like Kristol, Perle, Feith, Cheney, Rummy and such, most actual necon scholars have jumped ship a while ago.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. Yay, Larissa!!
I still want to have your babies!


:D :D
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
11. Are the necons jumping off the Bushco ship?
Sure looks like it.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is an extremely important interview.
Very well conducted, lala!

(He calls himself a democratic revolutionary. He's more like an Italian-style fascist.)
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Another rat leaving the sinking ship,
while trying to get some credentials with the public?

I identify that man as a criminal conspirator. Why is he not still in jail?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. He Could Save Everyone A Good Deal Of Time, Ma'am
By simply turning himslef in to the authorities at The Hague....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. How does Ledeen's religiosity effect his neocon philosophy?
I would really like to know that.

I am impressed with Larisa's attempt at trying to pinpoint his view on the neocon/Zionist relationship (as Larisa defines it, "Neoconservatism...(as) closely aligned to the conservatives in the US and the rightist Likud party in Israel" and Zionism)

Ledeen, as usual, is very evasive:

ML: I really don't see it in those terms at all, and I doubt--although I really have no way of knowing--that either Bush or Cheney does either. I don't view Israel in "Zionist" terms, I don't have relatives there, I don't travel there very much and on balance I have a dim view of most Israeli political figures and Israeli intellectuals.


Just for clarification, he was a guest speaker in 2003 at:

SUMMIT OF INTERFAITH CHRISTIAN AND JEWISH ZIONISTS CONVENED
The Interfaith Zionist Leadership Summit - a broad-based conference of Jewish and Christian Zionists - will convene at the Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washington, DC, was May 17-18.

Sponsored by Zionist House (Boston-based, founded in the late 1940s) with the National Unity Coalition for Israel, the Summit's co-sponsors include the Zionist Organization of America, Americans for a Safe Israel, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), Christians Israel Public Action Campaign, The Apostolic Congress, Christian Coalition of America and the International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem. A complete list of co-sponsors is included in the attached ad.

The summit was addressed by such distinguished authorities - concerned for both Israel's future and America's national interests -- as former Ambassador Alan Keyes, Janet Parshall, Gary Bauer, JINSA President Tom Neumann, Middle East expert Daniel Pipes, American Enterprise Institute scholar Michael Ledeen, Christian Coalition of America President Roberta Combs and Joe Farah, editor of WorldNetdaily.com. A full list of speakers is available at www.zionistleadership.com.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:6s1xqsakp5EJ:www.cephasministry.com/news_pulse_9.2003.html+Michael+Ledeen+Christian+zionist+convention&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=44


And was reported to have said:

Many speakers, such as Freedman and Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute, contended that U.S. colonialism or economic imperialism is not a factor in why there may be resentment against the U.S. from Arab countries.

Rather, the true reason is "hatred, pure hatred." According to Ledeen, What unites all Arab countries is tyranny. They hate the U.S. not because of our policies, but because we are democratic and believe in liberty. The only thing they want is the defeat of the United States—so it doesn't matter what is the U.S. stance on any particular issue.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:-GZ0omAfRr8J:www.solidarity-us.org/atc/106smith.html+Zionist+Leadership+Policy+Institute+Michael+Ledeen&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2


I would really like to know how Ledeen's religiosity effects his philosophy, especially since he has been a major influence on our foreign policy. Wouldn't it be interesting to know, for example, if he has certain end time beliefs such as the ones he wrote about in this article, with his wife, some time ago that relates to some of the religious aspects concerning the Israel/US relationship? I do not have a link, as I obtained it thru LexisNexis:

A CASUAL OBSERVER might be excused for believing that nearly all of the recent violence in Israel has been part of the usual cycle of Arab-Israeli conflict. The observer would be wrong. Though some of the recent acts ... seem to be the work of extremist Israeli nationalists, much of the destructive intent is fueled by a mixture of nationalist politics, messianic longing, and the search for roots. In fact, some of the current extremism is a direct outgrowth of the ancient forecast of the Apocalypse...The targets of the most spectacular incidents over the past months have been Muslim authorities and the area they control in Jerusalem, but for the most part the people who planned or participated in the attacks are the violent fringe of an informal movement that stretches from the United States to the Middle East, and encompasses millions of evangelical Christians as well as some Israeli Jews. This unlikely coalition rests upon a common belief that the Final Days are upon us. For the Christians, this means that the Second Coming of Christ is imminent; for the Jews, the Messiah is about to arrive. Both believe that the crucial spot for the fulfillment of the Biblical prophecies is the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, because that is where the Temple of Solomon is to be rebuilt. According to the fundamentalist understanding of Christian prophecy, three great events are required for the Second Coming: Israel must be a Jewish nation; Jerusalem must be a Jewish city; and the Temple must be rebuilt. Today only the third condition remains to be met. Though most Jews believe that the building of the Temple will occur after the arrival of the Messiah, a growing number of deeply religious Jews believe that efforts to rebuild the Temple, and other steps for its proper functioning, should be made before the Messianic Age.

~snip~

On March 10, 1983, more than forty Jews suspected of planning to penetrate the Temple Mount were arrested in Jerusalem. ... Their legal fees--amounting to $50,000--were paid by wealthy Christian evangelicals from Texas. Less than a year later, only last January 27, Israeli security forces thwarted an assault on the Mount ... There is good reason to believe that the money for this group, the so-called Lifta Band, also came from Christian sources in America ... the suspects began to be cooperative only after an Israel officer had "scolded them for using a Bible published by a Christian group as their religious source." ... At the Temple Mount the religious passions of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish religions intersect as at no other on earth. ... Political pragmatism, however, is unlikely to withstand the messianic passions that are directed at the Temple Mount... The Israeli courts have generally denied the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount, but there are signs of change there, too. ... The driving force behind the Temple Mount movement, however, is the American evangelical community, some 45.5 million strong. The evangelicals met regularly with former Prime minister Menachem Begin over the years, reportedly urging him to rebuild the Temple, and they raced to Washington this spring to endorse the proposal to move the American Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, citing Biblical prophecies of the day in the near future when Jerusalem will become the capital of the world. ... The most visible link between the evangelicals and the drive to rebuild the Temple is found in the Jerusalem Temple Foundation in Los Angeles, the latest of several organizations (and the only such group in the United States) designed to put pressure on the Israeli government to limit the Waqf's control over the Temple Mount. The chairman and executive director of this ecumenical foundation are Terry Risenhoover and Douglas Krieger, two Christian evangelicals who have the means, the energy, and the network of friends necessary to catalyze a mass movement (Risenhoover is a multimillionaire, owner of a company called Alaska Land Leasing that is currently planning searches for oil in Judea and Samaria) ... Deloach's senior pastor at the Second Baptist Church in Houston (the switchboard operator answers calls by saying, "The amazing second"), H. Edwin Young, is likely to be the next president of the 13 million-member Southern Baptist Convention, America's largest Protestant body. Both pastors accompany groups to Israel and take them to the Temple Mount and to the Jewish yeshivahs training priests for the Temple. Deloach is candid about his objectives: "We will do whatever is right and politically expedient to make that Temple Mount free for all three religions." ...

~snip~

Some of the members of these committees, yeshivahs, and groups are simply interested in the historical or scientific aspects of the Temple Mount. But many--and their number is growing--are working for a Jewish presence on the Mount, and eventually the rebuilding of the Temple. Some of these people are highly orthodox, and firmly believe that the Messiah will soon arrive. Others are primarily Israeli nationalists, who view Muslim control of the Temple Mount as an insult to the Zionist Dream. But in the end the religious and nationalistic themes are hard to distinguish from each other, and the effect is the same: Waqf control over the Temple Mount is being challenged. ...BY FAR the most dynamic of the challengers is the Israeli section of the Jerusalem Temple Foundation, headed by Stanley Goldfoot, a South African Jew who came to Israel in the '30s and fought in the Stern Gang during the postwar period. A passionate nationalist, a highly skilled rhetorician, and a man of demonstrated activism, Goldfoot believes that the Temple Mount belongs to Israel, and to Israel alone. ... Goldfoot sees the Christians as logical allies, for he believes that "Christian fundamentalists are the real modern-day Zionists"; in Goldfoot's view, it is the christians above all who realize that "we are coming to a crucial period in earth's history, and they want to help fulfill prophecy and thus hasten the coming of the Messiah." ...It is thus not so surprising that those who planned to sabotage the Temple Mount in January carried Christian versions of the Old Testament, for the Temple Mount movement is based on a messianic vision that, at least in its first stages, is common to both Jewish and Christian religions. To be sure, there is a basic disagreement, but it is one that will only be resolved in the Final Days. As one Jewish leader put it to us last summer in Jerusalem, "They believe that once the Temple is built, Jesus will come again. We expect the Messiah to come for the first time. Let's build the Temple, and see what he looks like."

~snip~

Historically, messianic movements tend to be strongest in periods of intense internal turmoil and external threat. Both of these elements are present in contemporary Israel, and the Israelis' anxieties are largely shared by the American "Christian Zionists." All we know about the Temple Mount suggests that it will grow in interest and become a source of conflict, with international consequences that are hard to predict. Up until the arrests of the twenty-five extremists, the Israeli government either ignored the Temple Mount movement or attempted to co-opt it, but neither approach was successful. It remains to be seen whether the arrests will dampen the ardor of the zealots. With the redemption of mankind and the fulfillment of prophecy at stake, arrests are transformed into temporary setbacks, extremism becomes righteous action, and political considerations pale into such insignificance that even conservative Christians and radical Jewish nationalists can become allies.

Source Citation: Ledeen, Michael, and Barbara Ledeen. "The Temple Mount plot: what do Christian and Jewish fundamentalists have in common?." The New Republic 190 (June 18, 1984): 20(4).


I also think this is interesting because I had read, too, that Barbara Ledeen was an editor for a magazine/group who has apparently been involved in advocating the archaeological exploration of the Temple, and, supposedly, for tearing it down and rebuilding it. I read this in a report that was conducted on behalf of a group associated with LaRouche, however, and have not been able to verify this at all, so I won't even bother trying to find a link. But, I throw that out there because I'm really curious if Ledeen, for example, is a believer in this or if he's just pushing this religiosity in order to garner some favored outcome. It is important, IMHO, because it sheds some light into Ledeen’s interests in what motivates people to take a stance, such as the Machiavellian use of religiosity in fanatical forms – (His obsessive works on fascism is much about motivating people as well).

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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Emit, I always have more information when I am done with your posts
than when I started the post - thank you

Outstanding research on trying to shed some light on Ledeen, Zion and the Christian connection in regards to their views on the messianic movements.
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staticstopper Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
17. I hope I don't get banned
and I'm gonna say this out of pure emotion; pure inbred knee-jerk patiotism...but my red, white and blue american blood boils at the thought of Cheney and Rummy and their pals turning on dubya.

I'd back the President!

Yet, I realize Dubya might be evil enough, with Roves help, to play the bad guy just to keep the fascism going and the money flowing.

But part of me knows from the tiny bit of history I've read that weird twists do happen.

god help us.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. you think * is Innocent??? Am I reading this correctly????
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 04:42 PM by stop the bleeding
Please clarify if I have missed the point of your post :crazy:
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well we know for sure that Leedeen is more inclined to do evil than good.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. yup. . ."projectionmeister"
honi soit qui mal y pense
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
21. she has also done an opinion piece on this at Huffpo
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. I cannot believe he starts out by quoting LEO STRAUSS
They just really are completely shameless.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Well, Strauss is considered a father of the neoconservative movement.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I'm well aware. I'm just shocked when they are so blatant.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
30. The man responsible for the forged Niger documents -
at least that's what many folks think. Great buddies with Rove too. I hope to god he gets what's coming to him someday; disgusting piece of filth.

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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
31. Ledeen is as nutty as a fruitcake. He's a weasel.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. What I never get about these types....

Is they say:

"I'm not sure Machiavelli was wrong when he said that 'man is more inclined to do evil than to do good.'"

And then they dress a man in unchecked authority and power and do not question his motives.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
39. ask David Brock what he thinks of the Ledeens
ha
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
53. Thanks for the interview. I hope you get to his daughter who was one
Edited on Tue Feb-28-06 11:06 PM by KoKo01
of the college graduates who went to Iraq (after Heritage Foundation sent out a notice) and along with other PNAC/NeoCon kids of privilege raked in huge salaries setting up and Iraq Stock Market amongst other good works. :eyes: I should link the WaPo story to this post but know you are familiar with it.

His family and the rest of the NeoCons have profited extensively from Iraq on our Tax Dollars. I think Nepotism and Greed comes into play when thinking about these folks with their "philosophy" (which as I said comes down to old fashioned greed and love of power and influence).

Good for you going after an interview and a three parter, no less!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
40. There's a good story
about a boy on a mountain in the late fall. He sees a rattle snake, shivering in the cold. The snake says, "Please, young friend, wrap me in your jacket, and bring me to the valley, where it is warm." "But you are a rattle snake," said the boy, "and my father told me to avoid rattle snakes, because of the danger of their bite."

"But I would never bite you, young friend. Indeed, if you bring me to the safety of the valley, I will give you a secret reward, which is of great value!" "What is the reward?" asked the boy, forgetting the danger posed by the snake. "It's a secret that I will share with you alone," replied the snake."Now please, hurry up and save me."

The boy wrapped the rattle snake in his jacket, and carried it down from the cold mountain, and into the warm valley. He was excited about the reward. When he got the snake out, he could hardly restrain himself. What's more, the snake could not restrain himself, and he bit the boy.

As the boy lay on the ground, he asked the rattle snake, "Why did you bite me?" The snake looked at him and said, "Because it is my nature. You knew that when you picked me up."

One of my Lakota friends told me that story.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Just So eom
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. One of my favorite's
I have heard it slightly different but the basics are the same.

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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
43. LaLa - Did you ask Mike who forged the Niger Yellowcake docs?
A thousand questions. I hope you'll let us know whether they were asked or answered:

Was it Dewey Claridge and the late Allan Wolf who handled those forgeries?
What was the purpose of his Rome meeting with Adnan Khashoghi, Larry Franklin and Harold Rhode in December 2001?
Who is Mr. X who fed Jonathan Pollard the document control numbers?
Is FO-3 in the Franklin indictment former Mossad Chief of Station, Naor Gilon?
Is the woman referenced in the indictment Judy Miller?
When did Franklin start wearing a wire? Does that question trouble Mike?
Who is Mike's Mossad control officer?
When is the Khuzistan uprising scheduled for?

Questions, questions. I could go on, but that's a start.

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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. lol...
part II
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Really?
Can we go "off the record" and talk about that? I'll e-mail you at the office from home tomorrow morning, if that's okay. I'd like to interview you.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Man,
what I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall for that interview.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
51. Love it, Lala! Interview with a Vampire, I say.
I really admire your courage interviewing Hannibal Lecter. Can't wait for parts two and three!

Did you ask any questions about his job "advising" Karl Rove in foreign affairs? :)
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Kablooie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-28-06 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
52. Punish the guilty but he doesn't think Bush or Cheney are guilty!!
"ML: We've been through this several times now. Punish all the guilty parties, whoever they are, and do everything possible to prevent anything of the sort happening again.

RS: Including Dick Cheney and George W. Bush?

ML: No exceptions. But I haven't seen anything that convinces me they should be prosecuted."
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-01-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
54. This guy interviewed..
Was evasive,said very little about himself,used alot of straussian doublespeak, and I think he is a moral coward.His ilk are the problem. He protects the"elites" and mouths empty justice like the rest of these people who think as he does.
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