DUers are obsessed with the need for conspiracy?

[Perky]

Not all of us but cmon people.

The latest two:

The tragic mistakes in West Virginia were actually an attempt by the Bush administration to disparage East Coast media outlets?

The fact that some of the 9/11 Hijackers took a gambling cruise on Jack Abramoff's ill gotten boat is proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming.

I think some of us need a nap and maybe some special pills.

Agree?

[PWRinNY]

1. In a Rovian world

There comes a time when conspiracies are no longer theories. I don't think we're conspiracy obsessed. Just truth obsessed. And the truth will be revealed.

[Perky]

5. Wow

Just Wow.

[txindy]

31. You are familiar with KKKarl's history, aren't you?

I'm not saying I'm for or against those theories you listed, but KKKarl is so low, nothing is beneath him. He has to drill upwards to get to bedrock. Remember McCain's "black baby?" The "child molesting" judge? The 'bugging' of his own office? Please. He's slime.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

42. Small time slime.

Somehow, I think arranging a mine collapse to discredit the media is a bit beyond his operating range. :eyes:

[txindy]

54. Um, what are you talking about? Nobody is saying that

I believe they are referring to the media mishandling of the information (i.e., alive or dead or alive or....). that someone deliberately spread misinformation. Personally, I think the mining co. deliberately dropped the ball to put off the inevitable backlash. The press got taken along for the ride.

What in the world are you talking about? You might want to read, first.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

58. You said, and I quote:

"KKKarl is so low, nothing is beneath him."

You're the one who brought the subject up.

We all know Rove is a world-class bastard, but his actual bastardry is small-time. He's not Ming the freakin' Merciless, for chrisakes.

[txindy]

62. Nothing is beneath him, that's true. YOU'RE the one making crazy claims

Nobody said he rigged the mine disaster except you. What's your agenda? Put a crazy idea out there and claim it belongs to someone else and then criticize it. Hmmmm, sounds familiar.

BTW, not that you were actually paying attention, but I was responding to a post about "Rovian" tactics. I didn't bring up the subject. Nice to see you're detail-oriented, though. Good for you. :eyes:

[Posteritatis]

35. Rove is neither omniscient nor omnipotent.

(Omnimalevolant, I might allow.)

If the man was a tithe as powerful, influential and effective as a lot of people seem to think, we wouldn't be having this conversation because we'd already be totally fucked.

[applegrove]

101. Exactly. Being manipulated and exploited makes you wary. So you

don't take things at face value. And if lies continue - it is hard to not assume the worst. Look at how much governance has been deminished. At least by counting every instance of the lies will allow us to teach future generations it is not way to live... in an unregulated world. Let us hope that we are at an end to the malfesance that will be uncovered. Cause otherwise it is pretty hard to get back to normal. But I would not count on it. I'm sure the mid level managers are just starting to turn. More stories will come out.

Rule of thumb - until there is a repeated pattern of evidence - you have to say it is speculation.

[annabanana]

131. Welcome to DU

and I think you've got a point.

[Rich Hunt]

2. some are...

I'm from Chicago, grew up in the party, and have known plenty of Democratic
activists in real life, and NONE of them are like that.

It makes you wonder what rock some people live under.

[Balbus]

3. No doubt about it.

[PatrioticLeftie]

4. No

It's just that this administration is so corrupt that there is no need for many theories.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

6. This thread is a Rovian conspiracy to distract

from the Rovian conspiracy.

[Cha]

15. Tell it,

Swartzie!

[Posteritatis]

25. Bah! Bah!, I say!

Nothing so simple. Clearly this thread is a Rovian conspiracy to highlight the false Rovian conspiracies, all the better to allow the true Rovian conspiracy, the one the false conspiracies only hint at, to flourish unnoticed.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

51. I KNEW IT!

Yes, of course. It all makes sense now. :smoke:

[Perky]

77. Never fool with a sicillian when death is on the line.

Never fight a land war in China
Never ever deny a conspiracy when Rove might be involoved.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. Problem Is

Half of the time the conspiracy theorists are probably far closer to the truth than the media.

[Rich Hunt]

10. that might be a fair thing to say...

I think the media are out of touch with people's lives, and so people start to look for
something that explains their 'reality' better, because often the media don't do a good
job of it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

16. Not Really At All What I Meant.

I'm not talking about them satisfying 'their' reality.

My point is that half of the time, what appears to be wild theory is probably far closer to the one and only True Reality than the official media's version.

[applegrove]

102. Well then they are not conspiracy theoriests. If the facts back them

up - it isn't a "conspiracy theory" it is a "theory that panned out". It is all so mixed up. Because the first thing a sociopath in trouble (about to be found out) will do is try and inflict psychic trauma on the witness/victim to try make them look angry & deranged so they can be isolated and ignored.

Fact is - when nefarious liars on loose - in the WH or anywhere else - people who see them for what they are and are terrified - will wonder what is up. Will want a more veratic truth. And that pattern will follow them. Rove is a nefarious. People who don't put anything past him have likely been everywhere in his life. Now there are just more people. Because of the choices he makes. Because of his actions. Because he manipulates to get power for his puppet-man.

It is not wrong to hate & distrust such a person. It comes quite naturally to the 99% of the population who are not like him. Thing is the patsies who he is handing power too will not see - to them - the GOP control of elections and concentrated power seems like god-sends. These GOP types will be the last to see. They have forgotten that when something is too good to be true - it probably is a lie.

Germans were the same way after the war. Walking around going "what? How did that happen?". The Allies saw it a little earlier. And depressives like Churchill a little sooner than most. And of course the immediate victims ("outsiders & scaptgoats") saw it first before anyone else.

Nothing should ever be put past a Rove.

If you have a theory - but no proof - rule of thumb is to admit it is a theory. Then you are either wrong or right. And when the proof comes in you go there. But you have to be discerning and proof still means facts - not the writings of somebody else who has a theory and not specific proof.

[H2O Man]

8. Interesting.

Nominated.

[H2O Man]

56. 55 posted messages

and only one recommendation? Explain that!

[stepnw1f]

63. lol...Good One

Gee... does Abramoff have anything to do with this? Now that's a conspiracy theory for ya....:evilgrin:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. A Rove operative is deleting the recommendations.

[meganmonkey]

9. How about this conspiracy theory - my personal favorite

A bunch of middle eastern Muslim extremists got into our country (even though some were known to have terror connections) and managed to take flying lessons, and then hijack commercial airliners with fricking box-cutters, and all this with no state sponsorship!

Talk about far-fetched!

[PWRinNY]

14. Yeah no conspiracy theory there

IMO that will go down as the biggest myth of the 21st century. That, and the myth that bushie ever won a single presidential election.

[jus_the_facts]

21. Indeed...

:applause:

[Al-CIAda]

24. Clearly the OP hasn't read a damn thing Hopsicker and others

have documented. Much easier to call those who look for truth 'kooks'.

WV mining thing I seriously doubt was any sort of 'conspiracy', but what IS worthy of note though is the OP's equating both 'conspiracies' as equals. Clever tactic in an attempt to dismiss both.

[MadisonProgressive]

28. And those 2 huge steel and concrete buildings

suddenly collapsed at freefall speed after burning for about an hour...

Plus the 47 story building a block away...

But it was so intensly hot it melted steel!

[sweetm2475]

179. great pic!!!!!

hard to argue with that, although i'm sure there are those that will try.

[klook]

93. Nobody could have predicted that!

What was the name of the report?

"Bin Laden Determined to Strike Inside U.S."

[petgoat]

114. But it was "historical in nature" and contained no information

about new attacks.

She said that under oath, and to the faces of the 9/11 widows.

[meganmonkey]

129. So it MUST be true!

;)

[bemildred]

11. Read some wingnut blogs, we are tame here. nt

[petgoat]

116. we are tame here

Also, we demand sources, authorities, and bases.

We are quick to point out fallacies and leaps.

We may be crazy, but we're not stupid!

IMHO it's well to indulge the wildest theories, and subject them
to rigorous examination.

In the OP, the first proposition seems to fail on grounds that
no evidence has been presented to support it.

The second proposition fails because there are obvious alternate
explanations for the hijackers' presence on one of Abramoff's boats.

But the OP's conflation of the wish for further investigation of possible
Abramoff-hijacker links with the unjustified conclusion that the gambling
boat trip constitutes proof of Bush foreknowlege of 9/11 is not fair to
those who want more information.

Consider the following:

1. Some of the alleged hijackers trained at Huffman Aviation, which was busted
for 42 pounds of heroin

2. Abramoff's gambling boats would be a good cover for money laundering and
drug smuggling

3. Sibel Edmonds and Indira Singh tell us that money laundering, drug smuggling,
and terrorism are all connected

The hijacker-SunCruz connection is not proof of anything, but it's well worth
investigating IMHO.

[LSK]

12. im sure "Concentration Camps" were a nice conspiracy back in the day

You know, like in 1939?

[tyedyeto]

20. Yes!

Conspiracy theories too often come true.

[Perky]

125. Sure they do but

when they don'tpan out and folks blame the media whores and corporatists and the Neo-Cons and the Christo-fascists for doing an good job at supressing the "truth" it gets a bit nutso

James Dobson and Jack Abhamoff met with the Cousin of Mohohammed Atta's next door neighbor's dentist from Memphis at a University of Colorado Football game 4 years ago. More proof that Rove engineered Diebold well known plan to Bomb the WTC in order to kill the secrtary of the Brother of the CEO of their competitor and thus insure that Bush could win a second term thus further insuring an attack on Iraq to deflect attention for the Enron-Haliburton-Diebold-Cheney plot to take over the world.

[Junkdrawer]

13. The owners knew within 20 mins. A SWAT team was there when...

they told the families. Perhaps, just perhaps, that was whence the delay...how to protect themselves when they broke the news...

...
Chaos reportedly broke out in the church and a fight started. Some dozen state troopers and a SWAT team were positioned along the road near the church because police were concerned about violence.

Federal Department of Labor officials announced an investigation would explore "how emergency information was relayed about the trapped miners' conditions."

Mine officials at the Sago Mine said they were aware within 20 minutes that initial reports on the number of survivors were wrong, but waited to talk with family members as they struggled to determine the number of victims.
...


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/mine_01-04-06.html

[...of J.Temperance]

17. I voted Yes...I just cannot think that EVERYTHING is a conspiracy

I'm sorry, I can't and I'm just being honest here by saying this :)

[Emperor_Norton_II]

26. That just proves you're one of THEM!

:evilgrin:

[...of J.Temperance]

53. Darn it Emperor

:spank:

[PWRinNY]

34. Of course

Not everything can possibly be a conspiracy, there are lots of random coincidental things, without a doubt. But I don't think the majority of us here are conspiracy obsessed - I just don't think that's a fair statement, so I had to vote no. I think we're all here in search of truth and someone to listen to us because, god knows, our government isn't listening to us.

[...of J.Temperance]

50. The poll didn't say that it was a majority though...so that's why I voted

Yes. I agree that there are some issues that get discussed here that do appear to have valid arguments to them.

But the things about, well for instance, the stuff about Chem Trails and Poppy being involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, I'm sorry, I have difficulty believing those things.

[petgoat]

119. I have difficulty believing those things.

You have to ask yourself why you have difficulty.

Have you investigated and found the claims to be lacking in substance?

Or have you rejected them without considering their possible merits?

Here's a for instance. I never paid any attention to crop circles. Loony tunes stuff, right?
One day I looked at the google images on crop circles just for fun.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=crop%20circles&btnG=Google+Search&sa=N&tab=wi

Are all these pictures photo shopped? Are these all farmers' hoaxes? I haven't
investigated them, and I'm not going to, but my mind is a lot more open than it was.

They're beautiful, aren't they?

[zippy890]

123. don't forget about the CHEMTRAILS!!!!!!!!

Those cropcircles are all very extraordinary and everything but that does not explain the Luminous UFOs found in chemtrails in Oklahoma.

http://www.rense.com/general53/lum.htm

personally I think this was Rove's attempt to discredit the cropcircles as they were distracting from his other attempts to distract from the original distractions!

[petgoat]

124. Well I made fun of crop circles for 20 years before I ever

even looked at them. And that was just because they're beautiful.

I only just found out about chemtrails a few months ago. Give me a couple
of decades to get used to them.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

164. Funny post, thanks.

[petgoat]

181. It is not scientific to ridicule something you have not bothered

to investigate, and the mere existence of a few photofrauds and practical jokes
does not in any way disprove the possible validity of observations of

chemtrails
crop circles
ghosts
flying saucers

(none of which I have bothered to investigate)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

183. Uh, yeah, I got it.

Maybe I should have said, "Funny post, thanks, and a good point
about contempt prior to investigation."

[Rich Hunt]

214. that's a fair thing to say...

I myself get bored with some of that stuff, like UFOs, but ridicule doesn't represent science well.

[Silverhair]

140. Three of those are blatantly photoshopped.

One of those may be an actual "crop circle" but even then the probabilities of it being a human hoax approach certainty. PRS 2002 may be real.

[QuettaKid]

146. alas, I really wanted to believe those as well.

the crop circles that is. Then I found this site. Basically it's an artists collective that are building those incredible shapes in the fields. None of those are photoshopped...they are all the REAL deal....real as in made by the hands of the artists.

http://circlemakers.org/

[Beam Me Up]

84. Thank you. That is exactly it. Welcome to DU, PWRinNY.

That the government, especially the Bush regime, lies to us on a regular basis is not a conspiracy, it is a FACT.

That establishment media, such as the NYT, not only lies but withholds relevant information from the body politic on a regular basis is not a conspiracy, it is an established FACT.

So, why would a government and its media handmaiden want to lie to the American people on a regular basis?

And, given that they do, why would you expect HONEST CITIZENS to BELIEVE them without question?

Moreover, there are many many important questions regarding major events that have determined both domestic and foreign policy that are not only not being answered, they aren't even being asked.

[Twist_U_Up]

87. very well said

Welcome to DU :hi:

[petgoat]

117. our government isn't listening

I saw a good sig line recently, something to the effect of:

"Freedom is being able to say what you feel; democracy is having your government listen."

Welcome to DU, PWR!

[Redstone]

18. Yup. The "Coal-mine-mistaken-announcement-is-actually

a-conspiracy-for-some-reason" business; I do find that a bit disturbing.

Sometimes things just happen, without any kind of "conspiracy" making them happen.

That's the way the world works, people.

Redstone

[darkism]

19. Yep.

I can see why they call some of us "moonbats."

But they have their own large contingent of nuts, too.

[Redstone]

27. Oh, they are FAR nuttier than we could ever be (most of us

anyway), though don't hold your breath waiting for them to admit it.

Redstone

[noamnety]

22. No

First, this is a board of tens of thousands of people. One person posting a thread of speculation on a subject does not equal "DUers are obsessed with conspiracy". Hell, 20 people starting a thread of speculation doesn't equal "DUers are obsessed with conspiracy."

If you lived in a city of 80,000 people, and a room full of people were discussing red shoes, would you think the entire city was obsessed with red shoes?


Second, after being lied to nonstop for the last 5 years by the administration and the media, people are cynical. It's not a big surprise that somebody would hear a media report on any new subject, and try to guess "where's the lie"? We all know it's in there, but sometimes it's not immediately clear where it is. Well, now we know where the main media lie in that story was, the Big Unconfirmed Miracle. It's not so shocking that people would be suspicious, and maybe start looking for better hidden lies, is it? I mean, are there any big stories recently where the media actually fully told the truth? Any at all?

[Emperor_Norton_II]

41. How about this: "Conspiracy dominates DU discussion"?

...because it does. Not all the time, but whenever a big-ticket news item hits the screens, there's an explosion of posts declaring that somewhere, somehow, this benefits George Bush and only George Bush. It always happens, no matter how inane the theory it gets an airing on DU and plenty of people will engage in cheering it on. "Right on! You know the TRUTH!" And so on.

It's really fucking annoying to watch a gaggle of paranoids bleat their fear & despair at every turn of the news cycle. You can't actually convince them otherwise, and they refuse to engage in positive action against their shadowy oppressors. Pity, really.

[stepnw1f]

60. You Appear to Be a Bit Too Annoyed

I see stuff and say... nah, not for me. But stating that conspiracy theories Dominate DU? Interesting you feel that way. Speculation? Yes, and it's normal, especially in times like these. Are their conspiracy theories posted here... of course. But "dominates DU"?

You also assume too much:

"...they refuse to engage in positive action against their shadowy oppressors"<---- rather flowery description... kinda dramatic.

You sure you know all these "paranoids"?

If you are sick of a DU being Dominated by "Conspiracy Theories" then why come by?

[Emperor_Norton_II]

67. I'm pretty damn sure I know 'em.

But "dominates DU"?

Like I said, it comes and it goes. There are times when things are fairly calm and DU isn't a bubbling cauldron of paranoia. But when a big news item pops up - the Shuttle crash, the bombings in Madrid and London, the whole Schaivo fiasco, the follies surrounding the Plame case, the NSA thing, and now this mine collapse - more conspiracy theories pop up than usual.

Give this a few days and things'll die back to a bit closer to normal. Of course, DU as a whole has been locked in the icy grip of The Fear since the election, so "normal" may vary.

You sure you know all these "paranoids"?

Yep, pretty sure. If things are as deeply fucked as the resident stable of paranoids claim, then there's only a few avenues of action open for dissent. Since I haven't heard anything on CNN about open revolt in the blue zones, I have to conclude that nobody's really doing anything with their facts. Conspiracy theory is ultimately a passive activity - it provides justification for a sense of powerlessness, and that's about it. Kind of like a secular recasting of Calvinist predestination.

If you are sick of a DU being Dominated by "Conspiracy Theories" then why come by?

Because this place has such potential to do great things, and I hate to see it squandered on fear and despair.

[stepnw1f]

69. It's Not That Bad

And I'm here everyday. I ignore the ridiculous... DU is great! Very informative, very resourceful, a great place to share and a great place to meet people. Also, a great place to vent.

Not perfect, but what is?

[Marie26]

111. And plus, all the conspiracy theories distract

people from the real Republican conspiracies! It's a conspiracy I tell you.

[Boojatta]

66. The original post exaggerates

First, this is a board of tens of thousands of people. One person posting a thread of speculation on a subject does not equal "DUers are obsessed with conspiracy". Hell, 20 people starting a thread of speculation doesn't equal "DUers are obsessed with conspiracy."

That is a good point. The original post exaggerates.


Members are allowed to promote conspiracy theories, provided that the members appear to be generally supportive of progressive ideals. Those are the rules here.

This is a potential problem with any board that has rules about viewpoints rather than tactics. There is a risk that Moderators might scare away members who try to subject the posts of other members to sober, critical analysis (even though sober, critical analysis might make the board look good). There is a risk that members who jump to conclusions will have no motivation to change their posting style, provided that the conclusions are consistent with the board's viewpoint.

In fact, I haven't seen any evidence that members who try to provide sober, critical analysis are mistreated by Moderators or Administrators on DU.

There is a certain amount of noise mixed in with most signals. Conspiracy theories might simply be like noise. If it is just a bit of inevitable noise, then the solution is to simply ignore it.

[onehandle]

23. The Pentagon was hit by a UFO!!!!

It's in Revelation, People!

[Skip Intro]

29. Why have such possibilites have become reasonable to contemplate? ask bush

This nation, in case you hadn't noticed, is being pulled down a deep sewer, has been since 2000, and no one knows how deep it goes.

No one knows the extent of the regime's evil abilities - they certainly have a great distain for law.

And knowing what we know about them, at this point, the fact that we have to wonder if its not some well-timed (they're all well-timed) plot is reason for disgust. But that should be directed toward those who brought us to this evil place, not those who wonder how far down hole we've fallen.

[Old and In the Way]

30. Obsessed? No. Resigned? Yes.

Take a couple of your special pills, then explain this-

from http://talkleft.com/new_archives/012480.html

Posted by Paul in LA
September 22, 2005 11:38 PM

On topic:

Shortly after 9/11, Abramoff signed up as a lobbyist for this consortium of banks that operate according to sharia, or Islamic law. According to the National Journal (Aug 31, 2002), the consortium was created after the attacks as President Bush began cracking down on terrorist financing. Abramoff's job was to spread the word about Islamic banking practices and to refute claims that Islamic banks sheltered money used for terrorist networks. And if anyone needed a good PR man, it was the chairman of the General Council for Islamic Banks, a Saudi businessman named Saleh Abdullah Kamel estimated to be worth in the neighborhood of $ 2.6 billion, who was quickly the subject of intense government scrutiny over his possible ties to terrorist activity.

You see, Kamel is also the chairman of Dallah al Baraka Group (DBG), which is suspected of having ties to al Qaeda and other extremist groups, and he was also the co-founder and large shareholder of Al Shamal Bank in Sudan, Osama bin Laden's bank of choice from 1983 onward. He was listed as being one of the seven "main individual sponsors of terrorism" in this report by French researcher Jean-Charles Brisard submitted to the UN Security Council in December 2002. (You might remember that Omar al-Bayoumi, who befriended and provided money to two of the 9/11 hijackers, was once an assistant to the Director of Finance for Dallah Avco, a DBG company that works with the Saudi aviation authority. And the WSJ has reported that the United States believes the Dallah al-Baraka Bank, another DBG company, was also used by al-Qaeda.)

Kamel's name also appeared in the "Golden Chain," a roster seized by Bosnian authorities in Sarajevo in March 2002 listing Saudi donors to bin Laden and his associates; and he was named as a defendant in two Sept. 11th related lawsuits: one filed by the victims' families in 2003 and another filed by Cantor Fitzgerald in September 2004 (Although claims of two plaintiffs from the first suit were dismissed, the same claims from other plaintiffs have yet to be.)

Working hard to make money from crime: it's the New RepubJesucrats

-- now with Terrorism Helper�.

[dryan]

201. Did they know that Jack...

A is an orthodox Jew?

[Nikki Stone 1]

32. Why are you REALLY asking this question? (Looking around nervously)

:tinfoilhat:

[Perky]

33. I think we might have gone around the bend. Whitewater Redux?

Then it was a investigation in serach of a crime.

Now it is a theory in search of evidence...Any evidence at all proves the extends the theory.

My God what will some of you people do with your evenings after the idiot has left the White House?

[Emperor_Norton_II]

49. Minor difference between this and Whitewater

Here, it's just us. We might be collectively around the bend, but we have no real power to inflict our delusions on anybody.

In Whitewater and the knock-on effects, the People In Power went nuts along with their supporters, so they engaged in lunacy and were able to cause Havoc.

As long as folks like Dean, Pelosi and Reid don't start raving about MIHOP or whatever in public, I'm not going to lose any sleep over the peculiar madness of DU.

[petgoat]

121. what will some of you people do with your evenings

Make love, make money, make music, write, read, live.

I used to get down on my grandmother because she had the attitude that she
gave four years of her life to being Rosie the Riveter and by god, she wasn't
going to lift a finger for anyone else after that if she didn't have to.

I think I'm starting to understand her.

[eppur_se_muova]

194. what will some of you people do...after the idiot has left the White House

Can we find out NOW? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

[bahrbearian]

36. This Poll is being Freeped, was 64% No,,, now 54% No

[Posteritatis]

37. Or, just maybe, DUers are of two opinions on the subject. (n/t)

[bahrbearian]

39. Do you have no sense of humor?

[Posteritatis]

40. *shrug* Accusations of being a freeper for any reason are common enough

on this site that I've already given up trying to tell when people are being serious about it. (That and I've already been called one once for insufficient post count

[bahrbearian]

45. Most people around here grow a thick skin,,, I agree with you

there are two trains of thought about the subject. P.S you are quick to respond.

[Posteritatis]

46. Snarkiness cheerfully withdrawn

What can I say? I have work to do, which means it's Procrastination Time. Nothing like a high-traffic political forum to aid that. ;)

[bahrbearian]

52. LOL .N/T

[hang a left]

38. What do you think of the report that some of the hijackers were

on a Suncruz casino ship the week before the "hi-jackings". What do you think of the fact that Abramoff was a lobbyist for interests in Pakistan? Now I don't know that ** knew about the details of the planning and conspiring that took place between these and other elements within our military and intelligence communities. But he knew something, don't you think? Don't you find it curious the connections that were had by Atta and associates in Florida?

And do you find it curious that it has been nothing but miner coverage all day on the news outlets.(not that it is not newsworthy). The "apparent" error in reporting has sure fueled the news day.

Perhaps you haven't been as jaded as some. I for one, take NOTHING at face value. I also definately do not accept newspeak as fact. I always assume I am in the spin zone.

[AZBlue]

153. What connections?

People keep mentioning the connections between the hijackers and Suncruz/Florida/Abramoff. What connections?? They were there gambling. So were hundreds, probably thousands, of other people. What does that prove?

[bpilgrim]

43. well, the stuff i heard is somewhat different than you...

1. why did the mine corp wait 3 HOURS to tell the truth once they let the lie out?
a. to distract from their crimes by getting everyone to focus on their hate of the M$M?
b. did rove green light it to be able to beat on the M$M to distract from their own problems (look ma a 2fer)

2. SOP - why were we under attack for almost to friggin hours, for CHRISTS sake, and not a single jet fighter in our 400 BILLION dollar arsenal could intervene?

3. why did those buildings fall in their own FOOT-PRINTS?

mpeg...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc-7_collapse.mpg

flash...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

4. we all know the chimp ain't gotta clue and didn't even REACT (another tell) after being informed that we were UNDER ATTACK by his chief of staff (card) but why in cheneys name didn't the SS whisk him out of harms way until AFTER the photo-op?

it's a long list, better start here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

anyways... welcome to DU :hi:

peace

[RagingInMiami]

44. Some of us believe only what the MSM feeds us

And some of us prefer to think outside the box.

Maybe you're the one on those "special pills".

[FlaGranny]

47. Well, I voted yes, because

there seem to be a few that come up with really wild theories, but who would have thought of all the entanglements and proven conspiracies that are now in the mainstream news. Who would have thought a few people's names would show up in absolutely every dirty deal of the past five years (actually some for the last 20-30 years). Multitudes of tentacles of conspiracy. Who would've thought - DUers?

First you sort of put 2 and 2 together, you pose the theory, then you try to prove it. If you prove it, it is no longer a theory. If you don't, then it's still just an unproven theory and can't be taken too seriously, but there is little harm in entertaining the idea when there are enough "coincidences" to cause suspicion.

[Catherine Vincent]

48. Anything's possible.

[Perky]

61. Yes The country is actually being run by Gilligan

From his secret Island lair.

I know this because the SS Minnow has actually never been found.

Itmy belief that it actually being hidden in the US Gold Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Kentucky.

And actually it's not a boat at all they found the craft outside Groom Lake, Mexico.

Never mind the timeline difficulies. That is part of Rov's secret plan as well.

[Telly Savalas]

98. Link?

[Douglas Carpenter]

137. is Jim Morrison there?

[RagingInMiami]

141. No, he's in Africa

[Douglas Carpenter]

161. link?

[RagingInMiami]

175. I'm not posting this as fact

But as a Doors fan, I know before Jim Morrison died, there was speculation that he wanted to drop out of society and disappear to Africa. He even told his friends that he would emerge as "Mr. Mojo", hence the phrase "Mr. Mojo rising" in the song L.A. Woman.

When he died in 1971, only the doctor and his girlfriend saw his body, both whom are dead now. People like to speculate that he faked his death and moved to Africa.

http://www.konformist.com/rocknroll/mojorising.htm

[Douglas Carpenter]

176. I know -- just my attempt at humor

[RagingInMiami]

177. Whew

You just never know sometimes.

[Zynx]

55. People love to believe that unconnected events are part of a larger

scheme of some kind when in fact they happen all by themselves. If the right-wingers are as powerful as the conspiracy types claim, we should just surrender because clearly resistence is pointless.

[MrSlayer]

57. I'd say some are obsessed with the need for comfort.

Don't ask disturbing questions, don't consider a different angle. The "official" story is exactly what happened and if it wasn't I don't want to know about it or even consider the monstrous possibilities. The government would never do something like that.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

59. That goes both ways.

Nothing happens without a good cause, or can't be tied back to the person or persons I think screwed up my life. No matter how bad it gets, I can at least take comfort that it's not happening because of dumb luck or blind Fate. There is a reason.

[RagingInMiami]

83. That describes the majority of people in this country

Which is why they can't see that our president is clearly wearing his birthday suit.

[DainBramaged]

65. When you read about Happy Jack, you no longer wonder

[RagingInMiami]

68. Speaking of conspiracies

I voted "no" but my vote was registered as "yes".

[Perky]

70. Rove strikes again (n/t)

[stop the bleeding]

74. you are too much

:tinfoilhat:

[RagingInMiami]

75. Should I have added

some kind of smilie to indicate I was joking?

[stop the bleeding]

80. Nah, I know that you are having fun

see my post below at #73 and you will know that I am on the same page as you.

[RagingInMiami]

82. All right!

:toast: :toast:

[Kahuna]

71. the first one is silly.. But the second one!

:tinfoilhat:

[Perky]

72. Chain-smoking Parilaments in a mumu no doubt

anyone get the reference?

[stop the bleeding]

73. I fell down the Rabbit hole day after Gore lost in 2000

:tinfoilhat:

Anything is possible with this cast of characters

[OnionPatch]

76. I agree but have to say

that with the amount of lies and propaganda fired off at us from all directions, it's hard to totally blame people for being suspicious of everything these days.

That said, a nap might do a few of us good. I'll be first....:boring:

[LincolnMcGrath]

78. Maybe you should ask the NSA agent snooping on this thread.

[Ksec]

79. Its a message board

Its the place to run ideas . No big deal imo. Just good clean fun..

[radio4progressives]

81. Huh??? What is this a Mouse Trap? How Lame..

Puhleeze - Why Are You Inventing Such Rubbish as the OP on this thread?

[EVDebs]

85. Lone Gunmen of the World, Unite !

They can't track OBL but they can track YOU
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=39245&mesg_id=41861

also see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x50015

[texanwitch]

88. I really liked that show, but I didn't think it would last long.

:toast:

[EVDebs]

91. Check out Mae Brussell's stuff. She uncovered Op Paperclip

and also look into Joan Mellen's new book A Farewell to Justice www.joanmellen.net/

also look into
http://www.assassinationscience.com/johncostella/jfk/intro/wound.html

Either the Zapruder films were altered or the autopsy photos were altered. Nice choice there, huh ?

[texanwitch]

95. Thanks for the links.

The series is on DVD, I just bought it from Amazon, cheap to.

:hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

132. The Lone Gunman's pilot episode had an internal plot to fly a plane into

the World Trade Center........

[RobertSeattle]

86. Might I suggest the Skeptical Manifesto

http://quinnell.us/natural/manifesto.html

[EVDebs]

89. If you believed the Warren Report , and now the 9-11 Report

you are suffering from gullibiity and naivite. Have the NSA bring you an almanac, preferably delivered by a librarian.

[Dr Fate]

90. I dunno- are you obsessed w/ the need for coincidences? n/t

n/t

[mikelewis]

92. The fact that the 9/11 hijackers took a gambling cruise is proof....

positive that there is still a lot about 9/11 that we do not know. The fact that you so easily discount the questions about 9/11 and belittle those with honest questions proves?...

A) You're willing to accept the word of G.W. Bush about a day that gave him nearly god-like powers.

or

B) You just don't give a shit about all of the people affected by 9/11.

How very Republican of you.

[autorank]

94. Agreed n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

96. I don't see where you can fairly or reasonably draw any of the

conclusions about the OP which you have drawn, at least
based on the post itself.
He did not discount "the questions about 9/11." He
discounted only the claim that the hijackers/Abramoff ship
connection proves that Bush knew beforehand about 9/11.
He did not say he accepted the word of GW Bush on anything.
And your saying he doesnt care about all the people affected
by 9/11 and that he is Republican-like is such a leap it's
beyond leaping.

[preciousdove]

97. Why are so many DUers still in denial and...

afraid to ask the obvious questions? SO MANY elephants lying around the living room and people want to pretend it isn't happening here.

I know Zuckerman, editor of Newsweek stopped his limousine and pull out his cell phone and kill all news coverage of a protest at an event in Manhattan he was attending in Nov 2000. All of the news crews were there and talking to the 400 protesters in wheel chairs or hooked up to IVs. Not one peep got published. So do not tell me it could not happen.

So yes we need to discuss the weird stuff that is happening to find out what the truth is even if it makes you uncomfortable.

[Telly Savalas]

100. Here's a list of elephants lying around the living room that get ignored

when DUers are playing wildly speculative games of connect the dots:

Why is it acceptable that 47 million Americans don't have health insurance?
Why is it acceptable that 1 in 6 children in the U.S. live in poverty?
Why is it acceptable that Americans and Iraqis are getting killed everyday as a consquence of the foolish military occupation of Iraq?
Why is it accpetable that our government is failing to do its job in minimizing pollution and other damage to our environment?
Why is it acceptable that the GLBT community is being denied civil rights, in particular the right to marry?
Why is it acceptable that the GOP is plunging our nation deeper into debt to finance tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans?

These issues are undeniable and real. Too many DUers hide from these questions by immersing themselves in elaborate conspiracy theories that are based on sketchy evidence at best. Is it because the truth makes them uncomfortable?

[crispini]

105. .

:thumbsup:

[Perky]

135. Spot on.

But I think its more about a need to feel outraged or protest rather than have a serious discussion about issues.
Some of us are more comfortable protesting then seizing the reigns of power and being responsible for results.

[FlaGranny]

154. How do you do anything about those things

if you don't root out the evil behind them. There is, after all, one cause behind all of them. Going after each one, by itself, is not helpful. Getting rid of the power structure behind those things is the only logical thing to do.

[Telly Savalas]

199. If the reasons I list aren't enough for people to reject bad leadership

then that power structure will always return.

[Douglas Carpenter]

160. exactly

there are plenty of things one can observe about our government that get little or no publicity without engaging in ANY speculation

[noamnety]

192. Well, that's rather condescending

Someone who doesn't believe an official BushCo version of a story is by default ignoring all those other issues, because those issues make them uncomfortable? That's quite an assessment.

I seem to recall Kerry getting immersed in crazy Iran-Contra conspiracy theories. I suppose it's because he wasn't comfortable addressing civil rights or economic issues?

You may as well say people are focused on gay marriage rights because they are uncomfortable discussing pollution ... or people discussing health care are doing so because they don't want to talk about the Iraq war.


Some people can actually have opinions on multiple topics at once.

[Telly Savalas]

200. Iran-Contra was no more a conspiracy theory than "Plamegate"

as opposed to saying Bush used weather control to cause the tsunami. (A ridiculous notion which if memory serves correct was posted with enough frequency here that the administrators felt compelled to step in and ban all threads on the topic.)

It's not condescending at all to observe that wild speculation grounded in neither fact nor reason serves only as noise and distracts from the progressive agenda.

[noamnety]

203. Iran Contra was most certainly a conspiracy theory

until it was proven, at which point it stopped being just a theory. And yes, Kerry was called a conspiracy theorist because of it.

[JohnWxy]

226. You raise some very good points.

As you have asked: Why is it that these things are going on? Could you provide some answers or direct people to some answers - books, articles etc. What you have provided is good for openers but maybe you could fill in some answers (or partial answers)(not all at once of course!). I think this would be helpful.

The Republicans are working so fast and furiously to deconstruct the Government, no one of us can keep up with it all. (Hell, they're going to have to hire a team of prosecutors to handle all the criminal cases against these Republicans!). We all could use some help here and there pointing out details we easily could have missed.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

99. No

Alot of them are yet to be uncovered proven facts.

The tragic mistakes in West Virginia were actually an attempt by the Bush administration to disparage East Coast media outlets?

Can't see that happening don't see the point, it was a miscommunication
on the rescuers part, I can see very easy how something like this happened with the stress they must of been under working to get them out.


Just wanted to add to this post a couple of conspiracy websites by Alex Jones, I believe he is a libertarian, he sure keeps an eye on the Bush Crime Family, but post about the Clintons as well. Believe what you want to believe on his sites.

http://www.infowars.com/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/

[Bluebear]

103. "DUers are obsessed...." stops the postulation for me

"DUers" is too diverse a group to paint with such a brush.

[eridani]

104. Attack liars and secret-keepers, not their victims

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=395401

[LSdemocrat]

106. Outside of Rove, I think we overestimate the intelligence of the Repubs

Paraphrasing Deep Throat in "All The President's Men", "These aren't the smartest guys in the world, and things are getting out of hand."

[Gelliebeans]

107. I used to be of the mindset

that it is quite useless to run around trying to piece a larger picture together however in the recent events of the past year, I feel compelled to look at everything. Doesn't mean I think that everything merits a second look but I think more information needs to be acquired before I am willing to right off most stuff nowadays.

I am a skeptic by nature.

Lately as I browse DU, I have wondered whether I wrote something off as tin-foil that really deserves my attention. I do want to state that just because one needs to gather more information doesn't mean they have bought the theory.

That is why I love the forums cause you can look up every type of "iffy" conspiracy you choose and discuss it with others of a similar mindset before you drop posts in the middle of GD claiming a theory or worse yet getting shot down by the naysayers as a :tinfoilhat:

In each of our quests to find out information we may stumble on pure shite, or we come across pure gold. The point is to allow those seeking information the room to find out on their own whether they are barking up the wrong tree. We should also remember that nobody likes to be told that they are a taco short of a combo platter because they subscribe to a particular theory.

just my .02 cents FWIW :P
* I think of surfing GD as shoe shopping, if it looks good try it on and walk around in them but as a general rule don't buy them unless you've tried it on or you might have to take them back.

[AntiFascist]

108. Now wait a minute...

Abramoff pled guilty to conspiracy charges, therefore there WAS a conspiracy. You can concoct all sorts of conspiracy theories together with 9/11 or election fraud, etc, if you want to, and it represents a vast range of beliefs here on DU - some which may be true and some with varying degrees of tin foil. The fact remains: THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY!

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

109. NO - Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic...

And any sufficiently advanced DECEPTION is indistinguishable from TRUTH ...

Fraud is the word ... And the best fraud takes place under cover of honesty and trust.

Why do you think people think twice when they're told "Trust Me" by someone?

The very best grift sets up the mark to defend the scammer. It happens all time time.

No one wants to believe they're being taken in by a confidence man, even to the point that many defrauded people don't want to admit it.

Con-spira-cy ... CON = With/together ... SPIRA = Breathing (as in respiring) ... folks who have to whisper to each other share the same breath... they whisper to make sure you don't hear them Perky...

With enough people dismissing the idea of deception fraud and grift out of hand, those who would seek your confidence might just hone their craft to such a point you could not imagine. Is there dishonor in in keeping an eye out, watching out for that con?

You yourself might hesitate to use any sufficiently advanced fraud to control your domain and couldn't believe other people would...

Maybe it's my problem that I can imagine that there are people that would not hesitate to use the most stealthy of frauds to try to deceive you?

Finally I'm sure there are a million bush-voters out there that would consider your very existence on DU as your tacit belief in hundreds of conspiracies theories... realize your degree of level might be someone else's tilt.

Want proof? Tomorrow tell any "Red-stater" you know that history was made in congress a year ago Friday -- tell them that on the same day that Alberto Gorgonzolo was getting confirmed, congress made history AND NO ONE REPORTED IT. They'll say you're a conspiracy theorist and that you need to take a nap or maybe some pills... Go ahead and try it, especially on Friday the 6th, the anniversary of proof there are hoarse whisperers playing their marks... Tell us what they say, I'm sure it'll be hilarious!

I'm tired of rigorous diligence being dismissed when there is no cost paid -- allow the discussion -- ignore it with all your heart and mind if you wish -- if there actually IS a fire, we'll be sure to wake you up.

I have a hat that is made of metal ... it doesn't mean my brain is too.

{B^>
FULL_METAL_HAT

[autorank]

113. I'm autorank and I COMPLETELY endorse the above remarks by FMH

"I'm tired of rigorous diligence being dismissed when there is no cost paid..." OR the corollary: congratulating yourself on restraint while you sit in the dugout during a bench clearing brawl. To many people are sitting on their back sides engaged in self paralysis by analysis.

I've been doing a lot of work on an election issue that is critical to my region. My wife said, "Why are you doing all this when people are probably going to ignore it?" My response was how can I not do it in view of the opposition and their despicable tactics?" She said "Well, now I understand, now go to bed." I didn't.

The record of this administration, the "tell" that explains all of their actions, is found in Katrina. Any group of political leaders who let an entire city, region for that matter, starve and go without protection against violence WHEN THAT ENTIRE EVENT IS TELEVISED, will do anything, absolutely anything start a war based on lies; let th environment get the the point where our lives are in peril; and let our lives descend into hell by bringing the perpetrators to power through STOLEN ELECTIONS.

Think about conspiracies and crimes. What crimes are conducted by solo perps? Robbing a 7/11, purse snatching, B & E. But when you get to "car jacking" on up through financial fraud, election fraud, Jack Abramoff fraud and deception, YOU ALWAYS HAVE MULTIPLE PARTIES PARTICIPATING. Were Nixon's actions solo or were they part of a larger conspiracy? Think about it. Of course it was a conspiracy...he had accomplices, names we all know: Kissinger, Haldeman, Mitchell, etc. etc. If you dismiss crimes because you're going to sound like a 'conspiracy theorist' then you've bought into the most vile of media whore brain washing techniques. The government and the CM can't allow talk of conspiracy theories because that talk implicates huge groups as complicit in vile acts. Better to haul a President out every so often, or a lesser official, and chop off their head than to admit that those perps acted in concert with several or many others.

Don't need a rest, don't need any pills...simply reality based analysis--which means naming the crimes that are committed.

DOES ANYONE HERE REALLY THINK BUSH PULLED OFF THE WMD DECEPTION AND IRAQ WAR ON HIS OWN?

[petgoat]

122. A tip of the Foil Fedora to FULL_METAL and autorank.

A couple of inspiring, aware, articulate patriots.

[autorank]

204. Gracias in the extreme!

:yourock:

[FlaGranny]

156. I agree with you, and, in addition,

many "conspiracy theories" that were first postulated right here on DU are now proven as fact. What we have here on DU is a huge network of investigators. Without a theory to begin your investigation, you don't know what to look for. How are most discoveries made, whether in science or politics? You see bits of evidence that give you a working theory, which you then try to prove or disprove. Admittedly, some theories are nutty, some are not so nutty but remain unproven. Yet others connect ALL the dots. Most crime consists of conspiracy, either large or small. So therefore, I see a real need for conspiracy theorists, but I believe that is a misnomer. I believe they should be called investigators.

My motto is be skeptical but keep an open mind. Be particularly skeptical of anything neocon.

[autorank]

205. True words above!

We're Democratic "underground" not Democratic mainstream. Who is Democratic mainstream? The DNC, by definition, and they live up to the title. They issue a report on Ohio and get it 1/2 right, stating clearly that there was race based voter suppression. Then they waste 100 pages on a tedious statistical analysis that ignores the Ohio Exit Polls and claims that Kerry lost. Then there's the Iraq issue. It's clear that the majority of the party supported the Bush authorization but a minority, the above ground "underground" voted no. They are our brothers and sisters.

The idea of 'going along' just to be "mutual" is the essence of complacency. The best course is to, as you say so well, "investigate" with "an open mind."

[Marie26]

110. Kind of

But it sort of goes back to - who do you trust? Most people don't trust the media anymore, and don't trust the government either. So there's no established authority you can look to to find "the truth". Everything's relative; everything's biased. Pretty soon a website seems just as valid as a news story. Why not? People do want to understand what's going on, but can't trust the traditional sources. I think it creates a sort of information vacuum that conspiracy theories seem to fill. We all want to make sense of the world - and I guess a conspiracy theory does that as well as anything. Better an evil order than no order at all.

[dailykoff]

112. I wouldn't call it a need, more of an awareness

that the crowd that installed itself five years ago is not nice in a big way.

[DemExpat]

115. No. Natural reaction to what many see as the most secretive Administration

of modern times.

I would be concerned if there were NO speculation and questioning of what the hell is going on here.

:shrug:

Some of it goes overboard IMO, but I personally value mind's fantasies and brainstorms. :silly: :-)




DemEx

[mogster]

118. I voted yes, but only for the examples mentioned

It's easy to get radicalized and lose the ability to see clearly.

However, the workings of this administration (and the row of ghouls standing in the shadows behind them) are so strange that you wouldn't put it past them to arrange accidents to create distraction/diversion. In fact, I think this is one of the characteristics of the Bush-administration and the neoconservative movement.
The problem lies in the Bush-administrations tendency towards secrecy.
Secrecy promotes speculation, and without speculation, where would we be? :shrug:

For me it works like this:
- if there aren't enough information, speculation keeps the focus on the issue in hand and helps the information flow
- if there are too much information, speculation refines it and sifts out the no-no's

I'm not afraid of conspiracy theories; they're very amusing and often interesting in the way they make you see things from a different angle.

And really; after the Gannon-affair nothing seems improbable...

[rucky]

120. No more ridiculous than the TRUE stories involving the Bushies

Can you tell me clearly where you draw the line between plausable and ridiculous?

I didn't think so.

[Douglas Carpenter]

126. My left wing argument against conspiracy theory thinking

First of all let me say that I do believe that there are indeed some conspiracies that are absolutely real. I am talking about the rush by some to see conspiracy.

Basic to a liberal or left analysis of history and current events is institutional examination and an attempt at a dispassionate view of what are the driving forces behind events.

Conspiracy theory throws institutional analysis out the window. It disregards the driving forces of a society in favor of believing that small groups of evil men are behind the horrible events of the world.

By taking the focus off institutional analysis and putting it on a plot we never deal with the institutions and the events that bring about the worlds tragedies.

[rman]

128. Crying "conspiracy" is a way to discourage institutional analysis

You yourself say that yes, conspiracies do exist - and then you imply that theories about conspiracies can not include rational analysis. How do those two viewpoints coexist in your mind?

[Greyhound]

148. Those poor men WERE victim's of a conspiracy

btween the corporatists and the criminal cabal.

[petgoat]

162. How does conspiracy theory threaten institutional analysis?

All the grandest theories involve institutions--the Trilateral Commission, the
Rothschilds, the NSA, the CIA, the Catholic Church, PNAC.

Institutional analysis itself is a sort of conspiracy theory. An instituion
is by its nature a small group of men seeking to influence events.

[Douglas Carpenter]

168. When I speak of institutional analysis I mean broad institutions

IE: Media, corporations, government etc and etc and how they influence events and other broad institutions

An example might be an analysis of how corporate interest influences media coverage or how economic interest guides trade policy and influences foreign policy in general

These can be examined without speculation using credible sources.

[rman]

127. "obsessed" with "need"? - bullshit

These days one can hardly round a corner without stumbling over a conspiracy;

- election fraud = conspiracy to violate the election code
- Delay = conspiracy to launder money
- Abramoff - 'nuf said

There's no "need" for conspiracy, conspiracies just are there for all to see.

[Douglas Carpenter]

133. I have no disagreement with conspiracies as you listed above

A dispassionate examination of fact from credible sources support those.

I am talking about the more far out end of the spectrum

[rman]

138. What's the far end of the spectrum of conspiracy theories?

To me the far end of the spectrum is flat-earth, hollow-earth, UFOs = alien spacecraft, moon landing hoax, bush caused the tsunami, Diana's death having something to do with a 4th lower astral dimension (whatever the heck that is...). ...Conspiracy theories that appear to be designed for the purpose of discrediting the entire notion that (grand) conspiracies do exist.

What's you far end of the spectrum?

[Douglas Carpenter]

139. ones that cannot be supported by a dispassionate examination of fact from

credible sources -- Then I try to imagine myself as being completely politically neutral. That takes some effort because I am not -- then I ask my myself, "would I still believe it?"

[rman]

142. Why ask yourself "would i believe it",

if it has already been supported by facts?

I'd say some amount of belief comes in in case of conspiracy hypothesis, not so much in conspiracy theory. But then still hypothesis need some founding in accepted theory and some facts.

Wrt media manipulation by those in power, there's plenty of precedence, and solid academic analysis - see Noam Chomsky.
Manufacturing Consent - A Propaganda Model
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%20/Manufac_Consent_Prop_Model.html

Wrt to Atta and the Abramoff casino boat, i don't think many people claimed that it is "proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming".
It's just that to many people it seems unlikely that it is coincidence.

[Douglas Carpenter]

144. I admire Dr. Chomsky's work a great deal largely because he supports

his findings from credible and verifiable sources. His emphasis is always on institutional analysis and the driving forces behind events. I strongly recommend his book 911. I do no not consider that to be conspiracy theory. He always encourages his readers to exam the data and to agree or disagree with his conclusions.

It is only an attempt at dispassion that I try to imagine my own neutrality which I admit not having especially if I don't give myself pause to try to have it.

[leesa]

130. Some of us rely too heavily on belief. If Big Daddy says so it must be

true. Some others use their brains and think outside these fantasy constructs, like, say 19 hijackers with boxcutters, seven of whom are still alive!

[0007]

134. It's funny, every time the Repukes get caught doing something

these goddamn conspiracy stories aimed at Democratic folks on these boards run rampant with no links or back up to pacifies.

True, there is always someone that suggest the far fetched! But it doesn't even come close to 25%.

Now put up some evidencePerky, of what you're talking about and let's see how many are involved in your theory, eh?

I vehemently did agree

[mopaul]

136. everyone knows that oswald acted alone

sarcasm

[Silverhair]

143. The situation has improved. See the DU rules:

Under the section: "Where to post various discussion topics."

"Posts about so-called "conspiracy theories" are not permitted on Democratic Underground, except in the September 11 forum."

So that forum is a designated dumping ground for wacko CTs.

[rman]

150. Are you saying any conspiracy theory is whacko?

If not, then you'll understand that non-whacko CTs also end up in the 9-11 forum.

[Posteritatis]

189. Well, *most* conspiracy theories certainly are. (n/t)

[Silverhair]

207. No, but lots of them are.

Many of the conspiracy theories that are posted here often require the laws of physics to be changed for the theory to be true, or require the conspirators to be be omnipotent, or so close to is as makes no difference, or have zero evidence to back them up, or there exists mountains evidence to debunk the conspiracy.

As an example of the latter, look at the large number of CT posts claiming that no plane hit the pentagon, and some that claim no planes hit the WTC buildings. Never mind the hundreds of witness and the video and live on the air TV for the WTC, and the dozens of witness for the pentagon. They ignore all of that, or concoct fanciful "explanations" to dismiss them. One poster even tried to claim that secret UFO technology was used.

[bpilgrim]

163. that september 11 has it's own forum where folks can discuss gov complicit

tells me that most folks don't buy the official theory and obviously DU doesn't believe they are 'wacko CTs' or it wouldn't exist.

fyi



peace

[SmokingJacket]

145. DUers are obsessed with doubting the Official Version

Which is a very worthwhile thing to be obsessed with, imho, even if once in a while the official version might be true.

And the fact is, the government lies to us, every single day. It's hard *not* to feel a little paranoid.

[bobthedrummer]

147. I recognize a few members in this thread that used to hang out

in the Meeting Room and a couple of other forums. Often they would wield the broad brush of discrediting certain topics that were once considered not "politically correct" via the use of the most farout and inherently outrageous stuff and/or calling on some of the pseudo-sciences, like psychology, to label some DUer's as pathological cases-the fact is there are conspiracies, and there are laws against them. For example, Jack Abramoff has pled guilty to conspiracy and some people are being held on conspiracy charges.

It is a fact is that some DUer's have been basically correct over the years in regards to seeking answers to the unanswered questions about the administration of George W. Bush, and the RW in general.

That's all I have to say in regards to the OP's assertion.

[peanutbrittle]

149. “There’s a secret world all around us,”

“There’s a secret world all around us,” a legendary CIA agent informs a young recruit in “Overworld,” L.J.. Kolb’s eye-opening account of growing up as the son of an American spy. “You just don’t see it unless you know where to look.”

[Zodiak]

151. Dismissing a hypothesis as a conspiracy theory...

Without an examination of the facts (or a refusal to examine the facts) is the act of a pseudo-intellectual. Skepticism is not intelligence, although many seem to construct their online persona based on that assumption.

When someone has a hypothesis (speculation based on a few facts), then that hypothesis should be examined for plausability....debunk it with evidence or support it with vidence...your choice.

But please, throwing around the "tinfoil hat" or "Conspiracy theory" monniker serves only to discredit, marginalize, and ridicule the hypothesizer.

A true intellectual looks at facts....a pseudo-intellectual dismisses hypotheses because they erroneously believe they know all the facts a priori.

I refuse to take this poll because the question is obviously asked from a biased point of view. "Obsessed with the need" is a poor choice of words. Also, painting all of DU with the CT broad brush is just as intellectually dishonest.

[autorank]

155. Extremely well said...

"A true intellectual looks at facts....a pseudo-intellectual dismisses hypotheses because they erroneously believe they know all the facts a priori."

That's one of the best summaries of the conspiracy versus "coincidence" question I've ever seen. I'll be sure to credit ZI when i use it.

[Perky]

157. You seem to suggest that a tin foil hat theoriist is assumed to be right

until he or she is proven wrong. Is that what you are suggesting?

THis would seem to create a situation where we must tolerates rumor and inuendo until we prove that it is not true. Doesn't the TFH have some burden to prove the elemts they are bringing together are first substantially linked and and secondly can be corrooborated? DOesn't the pustulator have a responsibility to prove the positive rathaer than a detracto prove the negative?

THat is alot like us tll Sadaam to prove he does not have WMD.

I am not saying its all rubbish....just that some people seem obsessed with conspiracy.

[Zodiak]

166. Well..

The first line of your post is setting up a strawman. I said that you treat a hypothesis neutrally and let the facts lead to support or rejection. I did not think I could be any more clear.

The rest of your post is based on that strawman, so it does not need comment.

And watch out for the word "proof". We do not use the word very often in science for a reason. A hypothesis is supported or not supported by the facts. If it is supported by enough facts, it is called a "theory". Mathematicians "prove" things...for the rest of the world, it is not that clear.

[Perky]

167. me thinks you avoided the question

most of the conjecture (we will call it a hypotheis)typically takes generous leps in logics and is sketchy at best on supporting evidence. Again you ssem to suggest that is fine to throw the hypothesis out there to see who agrees with it and thus instead of substanitve debate on subsatnitive issue... we spend out days and nights wasting our time on threads that have no basis in fact or wasting time reading about someone's obsession.

I am not suggesting that we ban TFH theory at all just that some of it is infact obsession with conspiracy.

[Zodiak]

171. I am not here to answer

to hypotheses that I have not formulated, so I am not avoiding the question. The question, in itself, is not very honest. If you had brought up your objections on the threads that pose those hypotheses, then we can discuss them. As it stands, you want me to address hypotheticals in a thread in which you frame the issue as "obsession" and paint all of DU with a broad brush, which I will not do. That is not avoiding a question...that is avoiding a strawman argument.

I do suggest that it is fine to throw out anything a person wishes to and let the facts determine plausability. That is the essence of free speech and good debate....the cream will rise to the top. If you think it wastes your time and have nothng but derision for people's hypotheses, then I suggest you do not participate. There are thousands of other threads for you to choose.

Just stop it with the "conspiracy theory" and "tinfoil hat" monniker if you want to be treated respectfully. If you offer your opinion with derision, derision is what you will get back. A lot of people are tired of being made fun of just for being out of the mainstream, and those terms go a long way in furthering that marginalization.

By the way, who gets to determine what is "substantive"?

And we are on a message board....isn't that the essence of "wasting time"? In the eyes of a street activist, it is....everything is relative.

[Perky]

186. um Noooo

Go back and read the original post......I specifically and intentionally did not use a broad brush.

I also think I am not the one to lighten up... All I have suggested is that some of the theories posted....Again....SOME are fringe at best and show a tendency to see consipiracy where it probablly does not exist. I pointed to two and only two examples both of which take a substantial leap in logic and faith,


ANd until you started chewing on my ankle, all my posts have been rather light hearted. Nerly half the posters bpouth publically and privately have agreed with me..

It seems a bit diengenous to accuse me of raising strwaman arguments when ultimatly much of the conspiracy theorist are doing precisely the same thing.

To suggest that Rove's boys fabricated a radio transmission to suggest the mineworkers were alive solely for the purpose of painting east coast, but not west coast media outlets as to quick to publish unsubstantied stories strains credulity, when no supporting evidence is provided.

[Zodiak]

196. I see nothing light-hearted....

about the way this issue was framed. Instead of using terms like "not plausable" or "speculative", you use disparaging terms such as "obessed" and "conspiracy theory" and "waste of my time".

But to each his own....carry on, I do not wish to be an ankle biter, as you choose to put it.

[Perky]

213. No offense taken

actually if you look at the header on the OP it was a question perhaps I could have put it in quotes.

[JohnWxy]

224. CAN YOU PROVIDE LINKS TO THE POSTS ON DU WHICH PROPOUNDED THE

SCENARIOS YOU MENTIONED (SPEAKING, IF I MAY OF SUPPORTING EVIDENCE)?




I'M STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER.

[JohnWxy]

223. CAN YOU PROVIDE LINKS TO THE POSTS WHICH PROPOUNDED THESE SCENARIOS?

Well, glad to see you are still around. I asked for links to the posts which originally presented the scenarios you put forth (you implied these were from DU posts), but I got no answer. Do you have an answer?

By the way, we do not confirm or deny any allegation without a legitimate examination of the allegations and any facts that the propounder of said theory/allegation can present. TO THAT END , CAN YOU PROVIDE LINKS TO THE POSTS WHICH PROPOUNDED THESE SCENARIOS.

I requested these links of you before. Have you not seen my request? Maybe this one you will see.

[muriel_volestrangler]

227. Have you not seen my answer to your post?

Post #219. And there's no need to shout.

[RagingInMiami]

206. Good post

[onefortheroad]

152. It's not just DU'ers

I have seen people who would believe anything.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

158. Not true unless Elvis confirms it in a coded message from Roswell.

Preferably sent to receivers implanted in the fillings of the teeth of the conspirators.

[CJCRANE]

Yesterday's conspiracy is tomorrow's headline nt

[peanutbrittle]

159. The environment that has been created

has influenced the conspiracy theories.

Too many unanswered questions, too much appearance of coverups, too much basis in fact to support conspiracy.

"Real patriots ask questions"

Humans love puzzles and with each piece that falls into place promotes the drive to see it through to finality. Basic human instict


Just some thoughts

[sweetm2475]

165. I proudly wear my TINFOIL HAT!!!!!

MIHOP MIHOP MIHOP MIHOP :tinfoilhat:

[JohnWxy]

169. AND HOW MANY THOUGHT THIS "POLL" WASN'T WORTH THEIR TIME

WHO VOTED IN THIS PHONY POLL? HOW MANY DUers VOTED AND HOW MANY CONSERVATIVE CREEPS WHO COME TO DU AND OTHER SIMILAR SITES (FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO FIND OUT THE FACTS THAT THE CORPORATE MEDIA WON'T REPORT) TO CONDUCT THEIR CAMPAIGNS OF DISRUPTION. ANYTHING TO DISRUPT EFFECTIVE COMMUNICATIONS.

[Boojatta]

178. "want to find out the facts that the corporate media won't report"

Why don't you start your own media business? Some time after your business is established, you might decide to incorporate it.

Here's a website that claims to provide incorporation for just $299:
http://www.thedelawarecompany.com/

Of course, you can shop around. Maybe you can get it cheaper. Maybe you can do it yourself and just pay administrative fees directly to the government.

[rman]

212. here's a big global non-corporate media outlet in the making:

www.iwtnews.com

"INDEPENDENT WORLD TELEVISION is building the world’s first global non-profit independent news network. Online and on TV, IWT will deliver independent news and real debate - without funding from governments, corporations, or advertising."

With support from the likes of

- Amy Goodman
- Naomi Klein
- Gore Vidal
- Phil Donahue
- Laura Flanders

[Boojatta]

216. "without funding from governments, corporations, or advertising."

What about viewers? Are viewers going to provide any funding?

To start a news organization, there is a need for at least some investment of money. Why shouldn't investors at least get back, over a period of time, the money that they invested?

If the investors are making it possible for people to get something worthwhile, then why shouldn't those people be willing to pay enough so that the investors won't lose purchasing power to inflation?

Furthermore, why shouldn't investors get, in addition to compensation for inflation, something like one percent per year on the principal invested?

Also, if there are good rules regarding what may be advertised and what tactics the advertisers may use, then what is wrong with advertising? Companies that publish books have advertising budgets. Also, some non-profit organizations have advertising budgets.

[rman]

221. if you want to know how it is funded, go to the website

www.iwtnews.com

[Boojatta]

222. Significance of "without funding from gov'ts, corporations, or ads"?

Is there anything that would prevent a for-profit business from being established with an irrevocable rule forbidding its shares from being sold to (or given to or otherwise transferred to) corporations?

You haven't explained why advertising is necessarily bad. Also, it is possible for a for-profit media business to get no funding from advertising.

Is it unusual for a for-profit business to be established without financial assistance from governments?

What is the significance of the phrase "without funding from governments, corporations, or advertising"?

[Cults4Bush]

170. Heres my theory you dont understand the difference between speculation

and theory.

Here's another one... very soon a bunch of people who are so easily embarassed about what other people will think about the entire party from reading a few posts on this one website will once again rise to try and have the ones who aren't afraid to speculate, postulate and theorize purged.

Ive seen this cycle often enough that I can see it coming. approximatley 45 days since the last round of you make us all look bad and you will lose the election for us thereby putting the world in further jeopardy at the hands of the Republicans (because you certainly dont want to call them chimps, neocons, fascists or anything else that someone somewhere might see someday.. maybe.)

Try this one on for a poll instead- should people be allowed to speculate on DU about the possible evil doings of this administration and their allies?


on edit: Fixed some of the most horrible example of spelling and grammar... sorry there is still so much there;)

[CJCRANE]

172. Maybe as well as a "tinfoil hat" icon

there should also be a speculation or "thinking hat" icon...

[mittenlandgirl]

173. paranoia

you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you ;)

[petgoat]

182. Ah, but if anybody was really out to get you, they would have

got you.


"They" are out not to get you but to make you paranoid and thus self-discrediting,
isolated, and an embarrassment to your friends, family, associates, employers,
and causes--thus getting you.

[Bridget Burke]

174. Some conspiracy theories seem far-fetched to me.

But that's no reason to reject all of them.

[Perky]

188. And no one has rejected all of them.

Some are great on substance and some are written by those needing some assistance.

[Mutley]

180. Some of the stunts this admin has pulled would seem like nothing more than

conspiracy theories if we didn't know they were true. Because of that, I think for many, myself included, it's hard to decide what we hear is real and what is kooky. But to me, at least, the examples you put forth seem pretty obviously kooky. Coupled with that, I think some people are ready to embrace any bad thing they hear about this administration to reinforce how they feel about it, no matter how crazy it sounds. People just have to learn to use their logic a little more. A nap wouldn't hurt, either.

But, truth always ends up being stranger than fiction, so the whole truth about this admin is probably far kookier than any conspiracy theory put forth by DUers.

[Poll_Blind]

209. Well-said. I think what you've said is very true, especially the nap. n/t

PB

[The Onyx Key]

184. Unfortunately, Occam's Razor does seem

to take a beating around here.

[QC]

185. OMG! They've gotten to you, too! n/t

[The Onyx Key]

190. I'm not at liberty to say!

;-)

[Festivito]

187. NO conspiracies, never have been, never will be any. You can't name one.

Conspiracy laws exists simply to pacify conspiracy theorists, and the word "conspiracy" is only used by conspiracy theorists.

The idea that conspiracy theorists might be a conspiracy itself shows the disturbed nature of conspiracy theorists by themselves.

P.S. No other person contributed to my writing this. No conspiracy here. Move along. Nothing to see.

[devilgrrl]

191. Actually, DISRUPTORS are the ones with the need for conspiracy

That's what I think.

[leftofthedial]

193. agree with you

or with those you are misrepresenting and smearing?

:shrug:

[Cults4Bush]

197. Well done!

As well said as could've been.

[RagingInMiami]

217. As one of those who is being misrepresented and smeared

Thanks for noticing.

[Rex]

195. No, you just see what ya want to.

So do I, it is called an informed or an uninformed opinion. A very subjective poll IMO.

[Xenotime]

198. This is a * driven poll.....

I know it......




/scarcasm

[dryan]

202. It's been my experience...

that truth really is stranger than fiction. If you were to take the facts of any of our country's recent scandals, change a few details, and try to sell it as a novel, no one would buy it. For instance, 10 middle eastern men come to America, study flying and then fly into the World Trade Center, killing themselves and several thousand others, plus also flying into the Pentagon killing several hundred more. The current situation with Jack A reads better than anything I have read by Dominic Dunn, Danielle Steele, or Robert Ludlum.

[Poll_Blind]

208. Anyone who believes less of my truth, a sheep. More than I do, crazy.

That's what I see alot of here- not in this thread, per se, but generally. Everyone has their subjective opinion and feels that it is somehow elevated from picayune to all-encompassing truth. I reserve my harshest judgement for the assholes who actually start attacking a person, ad hominem because they suggest some theory or other. Free speech don't hurt nobody in this context but I see alot of posters really, really trying hard to insult anyone who doesn't believe more or less exactly as they do.

It's not specific to 9/11, it seems to be systemic. I've been on here for something like 4 years now, maybe 3 1/2, but a long damned time and I've really seen it ramp up in the last year or so. Used to be, if you thought someone suggested something a little too kooky for your tastes you just didn't reply.

PB

[DemExpat]

210. It is as if some here totally freak out at the "kookier" ideas

as if those posts shine a personal spotlight on them as the author..... :shrug:.....otherwise, I just don't get why they are so harsh and insulting and want ideas suppressed.

Used to be, if you thought someone suggested something a little too kooky for your tastes you just didn't reply.

:thumbsup:

DemEx

edit: and my impression after 5 years of this is that very little that DU has "wildly" speculated about this Administration has been disproved, while much has come to light as being how it is.

[Silverhair]

211. Take a look at this absurd mind disaster conspiracy theory posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x64429#64599

This poster speculates, with NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE, that the last notes that the miners wrote were planted on the bodies by the mine company.

[sendero]

215. I really cannot vote here..

... because neither answer is true. Yes, there are some folks here that jump to some really absurd conclusions, there is no doubt of that. Go to any similar message board and you will find the same thing. On the bell curve of paranoia, those at the edges are allowed to post also.

On the other hand, many many things that we now KNOW are true were once derided as wild conspiracy theories. And personally, I think there are plenty of the so-called theories that have a lot more credible facts supporting them than the official version has.

[JohnWxy]

218. DID YOU SEE EITHER OF THESE SCENARIOS PROPOSED ON DU?

IF SO, PLEASE PROVIDE THE LINKS.

[muriel_volestrangler]

219. Yes, both proposed

1st scenario:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=46994

2nd scenario:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=125&topic_id=65482
and
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=64988&mesg_id=64988

[RagingInMiami]

220. Oh, the horror!

[JohnWxy]

228. HERE ARE THE "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" NOT FROM THE POLLSTER

I guess you are answering for the person who put the original poll ("DUers are obsessed with a need for conspiracies ?"). Too bad they didn't have the guts to answer for themselves.

But thank you. NOW PEOPLE CAN READ THE ORIGINAL POSTS FOR THEMSELVES.


Now the first scenario in the poll was:

"The tragic mistakes in West Virginia were actually an attempt by the Bush administration to disparage East Coast media outlets?

Your first link to the post corresponding to the first scenario in the poll asked the question:

Is it possible that the story of the 12 live miners was purposely planted just in time for the East Coast newspapers to run it on their front pages?. Personally, I think someone should be able to ask a question without being characterized (denigrated?) as having an obsessive need for conspiracy theories. Also, this post asks whether of not the story was "planted" so as to draw attention away from otherwise bad publicity (for the Repubs) coming out at that time.


NOte nothing was said in the poll scenario about the story being "planted" as it was
stated in the post's QUESTION: "Is it possible that the story of the 12 live miners was purposely planted...?". Does this seem like a significant abridgement to you?


Now how about the second "obsession with the need for conspiracy"(whatever that is supposed to mean) as characterized in the poll:

The polls wording of the second scenario supposedly presented by this post is: "The fact that some of the 9/11 Hijackers took a gambling cruise on Jack Abramoff's ill gotten boat is proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming.

your second link:

Abramoff, SunCruz, M.Atta, 9/11, FBI.....

Again the text in this post is a QUESTION:

"any teeth in the story that M.Atta and some other 9/11 terrorists showed up on a SunCruz casino boat in FLA sometime before 9/11 and that the FBI confiscated the tapes of them on the boat? I heard this from somebody over the weekend. Any details? Any basis to believe this?"

This doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory to me. It sounds like aquestion to me. Can't a person ask a question? Does he have to have it reviewed by a board which determines that the question is worthy of being heard? Also, note there is no claim that this circumstance, if it indeed happened means that this is "proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming."

I think perhaps the pollster, who prefers to remain silent, was taking a question and running wild with an answer without even investigating the question. Questions are NOT answers nor are they accusations. At least, not the last time I checked. They MAY be the beginning and a basis for further investigations but not unless if you are allowed to check them out. A question is not a completed case.

Your third link: Why were Atta and 9/11 muslim hijackers on Abramoff's casino boat? is to post which refers to an article published on Madcowprod.com entitled: The Secret World of Jack Abramoff:Terrorists, Torpedos and Republican Muscle.

The post text is:

"Hmm, Muslim hijackers who partied it up with a stripper and cocaine, liked pork chops (see http://tinyurl.com/dkxv3 ), went to a bar the night before they were going to meet Allah , and, as if that wasn't enough, we now find out some of them also went out for "tours to nowhere" on casino boats, and not just any old casino boat, but one owned by lobbyist du jour Jack Abramoff. Why it is almost enough to make a person a conspiracy theorist."

I interpret these words as meaning this is suspicious stuff but I still do not equate this to a statement that this is "proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming.".

He refers to an article published on madcowprod.com:

"The 'secret world' of Jack Abramoff being probed by investigators today has definite connections and unmistakable links to the one inhabited during their final year in the U.S by Mohamed Atta and the other hijackers.

So as the scandal embroiling House Major Domo Tom Delay and Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff grows hotter, there may be new revelations about the 9.11 attack.

One of the most amazing things about this most amazing scandal—hundreds of millions in slush funds beats Oval Office blowjobs by a mile—is that some of the same names in the Abramoff scandal also surface in connection with Mohamed Atta’s.
www.madcowprod.com/06202005.html

The article seems to say this is suspicious stuff but I still do not equate this to an assertion that this is "proof positive that Bush knew that the attacks were coming.".

ONce again you don't need prof of something to ask a questons meerly suspicious cercumstances. The proof if any is to be had, must come after questions are asked and an investigation pursued.

So conspiracy theories, obsession with a need for conspiracy (whatever that collecton of words means) or merely asking questions. I think it's better to see the actual "raw data" and decide for yourself, don't you?

[muriel_volestrangler]

229. No, that seems like a perfectly reasonable abridgement to me

in the first link/question.

For the second and third links, it's not just the original post, it's many of the replies - they talk about 'falling down the rabbit hole', coverups, 'blue bills and red pills', 'MIHOP/LIHOP', conspiracies, and much more. Note that the OP in this thread did not specifically refer to the OPs of those threads - I was just linking them here to show you that the theories had indeed turned up on DU. He may have had other thread in mind too.

I do think there are a few here on DU that are obsessed with conspiracy theories - and they may have a need for them (one or two are actually just feeding the frenzy for fun, but for some it satisfies a desire to be fighting against an evil adversary). I've watched threads grow as they manufacture their 'evidence', repeat each other without any outside evidence as if something has been proved, ignore ideas or direct evidence that dispells their theory, and pat themselves on the back for another brilliant expose of the Evil Empire, when in reality what they've constructed won't convince anyone when it's read. It's a real shame, because some excellent research does go on at DU as well - like the Ohio voting patterns. But the reputation of DU isn't helped by claims of things like a plot to set off a nuclear bomb in Minnesota before the 2004 election (maybe that was before you read DU, but it astounded me that one claim of a message from a known con man could generate hundreds of posts apparently taking it all seriously) - or the obsession of a few with 'chemtrails'. I actually first heard of DU through someone pointing at ridiculous chemtrail theories - but I don't think that all publicity is good publicity in general. Someone who needed convincing of the Democratic message, rather than already basically agreeing with it, could easily be put off if their introduction is a theory full of holes and leaps of faith.

The thing about the threads that get dismissed as 'conspiracy theories' is that there's remarkably little 'raw data' in them - they're mainly people making unjustified connections.

[Neil Lisst]

225. I object to labeling thoughts as "conspiracy theories."

When you label me, you diminish me.
--- some guy who never said anything else of note, but he's got a cool name

When you label someone's analyses as "conspiracy theory," you are not addressing the substance. The whole "DU is crazy for conspiracy" is nonsense. There are hundreds of threads a day, with thousands of posts, and most don't have anything to do with "conspiracy theories."

If one is a racist, he thinks all they talk about on TV is "black this, and black that." If one is homophobic, the world is full of "the gay agenda." If one objects to hypotheses regarding how things really happened beyond press releases, the world is full of "conspiracy theories."

If there is one thing we've learned from Bushco, it's that everything they do qualifies as a plan, a scheme, a ... conspiracy. It is what it is, by whatever label one places on it.

[IChing]

230. well said my friend

:toast: :hi:

[Neil Lisst]

231. IChing, that's good for my chi.

BTW, it was Soren Kierkegaard who made the statement to which I alluded.

Everything unknown and speculated upon is a conspiracy theory until it is proven. As in science, just because something has not yet been proven doesn't make NOT SO.

[IChing]

232. Thanks, did you know that his name means

church graveyard in Danish? Interesting last name for a existentialist philosopher.

I'm glad you found the original quote, was that from"FEAR AND TREMBLING"?

[Neil Lisst]

233. I'm not sure that is the original quote.

If it is, I got lucky.

I did not know that was the meaning of his name. It's been decades since I've read anything about him or by him.