so, all things considered, the "neo-conservative" philosophy

[anarch]

boils down to: "Look, we know the whole world is screwed. The global peak of oil production is coming soon (if it hasn't already hit), the climate is fucked thanks to a century or so of petroleum over-use and general disregard, everybody in the Third World pretty much already despises America either out of envy or justified grievance...so why not just rape and pillage while we still can, and pocket as much wealth as possible for ourselves while it's still worth anything? Fuck everybody who isn't on the inside of the deal. It's survival of the cruelest!"

or maybe they're just living in some kind of dream world, and actually believe all that PNAC bullshit? :shrug:

[sui generis]

1. neocons honestly believe that some people are more equal

than others. More deserving of success, or in some cases, failure.

Apart from that nuance, they're a bunch of selfish, greedy, shitbrained pigs, and that's giving pigs a bad name.

[Marie26]

6. What is the difference

between neoconservatism & facism? Is there one?

[sui generis]

8. defined (close enough not to really matter)

Fascism: "A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (From The American Heritage Dictionary)

(verbatim from Wiki)
Neoconservatism:
Neoconservatism refers to the political movement, ideology, and public policy goals of "new conservatives" in the United States, who are mainly characterized by their relatively interventionist and hawkish views on foreign policy, and their lack of support for the "small government" principles and restrictions on social spending, when compared with other American conservatives such as traditional or paleoconservatives.

In the context of U.S. foreign policy, neoconservative has another, narrower definition: one who advocates the use of military force, unilaterally if necessary, to replace autocratic regimes with democratic ones. This view competes with liberal internationalism, realism, and non-interventionism.

The prefix "neo" can denote that many of the movement's founders, originally liberals, Democrats or from socialist backgrounds, were new to conservatism, but can also refer to the comparatively recent emergence of this "new wave" of conservative thought, which coalesced in the early 1970s from a variety of intellectual roots in the decades following World War II. It also serves to distinguish the ideology from the viewpoints of "old" or traditional American conservatism.

Modern neoconservatism is associated with periodicals such as Commentary and The Weekly Standard and some of the foreign policy initiatives of think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) and the Project for the New American Century (PNAC). Neoconservative journalists, pundits, policy analysts, and politicians, often dubbed "neocons" by supporters and critics alike, have been credited with (or blamed for) their influence on U.S. foreign policy, especially under the administrations of Ronald Reagan (1981-1989) and George W. Bush (2001-present), and are particularly noted for their association with and support for the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

The term "neocon," while increasingly popular in recent years, is somewhat controversial and is rejected by many to whom the label is applied, who claim it lacks a coherent definition.

[Marie26]

14. Thank you

for the definitions. I've always thought "neo-con" is a bad label too; these guys are not "conservative" in any sense of the word. Maybe "imperialists" would be better. And, based on the the definition of facism, it's hard to see much of a difference between that philosophy & the philosophy of the Bush Ad. The most interesting thing about this group, to me, is their rarity. There's probably only a few hundred true "neocons" in think tanks & gov., but they're somehow managing to change the country.

[xchrom]

2. they are cynics -- it's about power and control.

they have a formula for manipulating formally open societies like our and they are succeeding.

and more frightening is -- even with a democratic take over in the house, senate and presidency -- the neocon/corporatist tendrils run very, very deep.

they aren't going away with just winning an election or two.

they aren't stupid.

if we want to beat them -- we had better not be either.

[anarch]

9. yeah, mostly power and control over wealth

and the perpetuation of oil-based...well, everything, despite the fact that such a perpetuation of dependance on a dwindling resource defies all logic except the logic of greed.

The worst part of our situation, to me, is that we let this happen, and continue to do so. I know, there are plenty of us, especially here, who are actively doing whatever they can to bring a positive change, and I don't discount that. We need more of it! I'm just feeling especially bitter today.

My grandfathers, who both fought (supposedly) against the fascists in WWII must be rolling over in their graves, if they can see what's happened to America.

[Marr]

3. I wonder if the neoconservatives will eventually be viewed as a cynical

response to Nazism. It's intellectual inspiration lies with men who saw the defeat of the Nazis and decided that the best way to avoid fascist domination was to become fascists themselves. Sort of do unto others before they can do unto you. It's incredibly cynical.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. They believe in total rule by a select 'class' of people. They believe

religion is necessary to control the masses. And they dream of empire.

[Skidmore]

13. AND they have the temerity to insist that they are

Democrats too. I've heard both Wolfowitz and Perle claim this.

[Marie26]

15. Maybe there are

The neocons & Democrats do have some things in common. The neocon vision of "spreading democracy" throughout the world isn't that far removed from what Democrats like Pres. Wilson, or Madeline Albright advocated. They just think it should be done by force. The "neocon" philosophy is like internationalism on crack. But I wonder if they might have more in common w/some "globalism" Dems. than they do w/people like Pat Buchanan.

[staticstopper]

5. Great post!

The little faith I have left in the system says to me that those in the know, know 'something' and are looking the other way, because to stop them they would have to tell the tale...and it might not be pretty at all.

I have no other idea as to why the media and those left of center are letting them get away with so much...all of it can't be because of 911.

[Union Thug]

7. Neo-Conservatism is the logical outcome of conservatism..

They hate government, so they respect NO institutions, no laws and use morality as a tool but themselves know nothing of morality. It's all about money and power. So you get what you have today, greed, scandals and lies to maintain their position.

I thought this lesson was learned during the Gilded Age/Robber Baron era. Guess not. There are still economic liberatarians out there that think this shit is good.

[anarch]

10. I guess it must feel pretty good, if you're one of the robber barons

[Rocknrule]

11. "survival of the cruelest" sums it up perfectly!

[Emit]

12. That's the neocon and military industrial complex philosophy combined n/t