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Just remember, there were no Nazis in Germany in 1948.

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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:05 PM
Original message
Just remember, there were no Nazis in Germany in 1948.
Think about that five years from now, after this neocon cabal crashes and burns. It starts with scraping the "W" stickers off their cars, it ends with total denial.

When this is all said and done, nobody will admit to ever having supported the Bush administration.




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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want them crushed and I want the neocon religious movement
crushed.....

But we have to prosecute the criminals for Treason in this country....

And then they must be prosecuted by the Hague.....

And they must be marched around for the world to see......

you are right I have been looking for the stickers and they seem to be few and far between!!
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Stickers disappearing in the South
I have been looking for the stickers and they seem to be few and far between!!


We're looking here too and not seeing any big ole, ugly W's anywhere. :wow:
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Vanishing quickly here in Orlando, too.
nt
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. and that is odd, because I swear I see more
around NYC recently
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. How are people getting MORE???????
Edited on Thu Mar-02-06 06:29 PM by Ignacio Upton
Are the Kerry and Bush campaigns still selling their old stickers, or can you get them from a website? BTW, do you mean in NYC itself, or in LI, Westchester, or Jersey or Connecticut/Fairfield County?
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. In and around the 5 boros... weighted towards LI
for the most part
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Huh
Must be all them Suozzi voters showing their true colors. I wish he would drop out.
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jackster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
60. I see the same number if not more too
around Boston - or at least north of the city

And this week I saw a sticker that made my blood boil - I wanted to drive my car into the giant behemoth of a truck - "Hey Liberals, Who's Your Daddy Now?"

Are these people all born without the ability to reason?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. The fish is becoming a swastika to me these days....
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liberalitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sorry, I have to disagree.
There were and are nazis in Germany....
They just called themselves something else.... Schroder was a former nazi supporter.

Nazis are everywhere.... like cockroaches!
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. Right. And let's not forget the hundreds if not more brought HERE
as part of Operation Paperclip:

***** Bush Family - Nazi Dealings - WWII to 1951
by John Buchanan and Stacey Michael
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 3, November 7, 2003
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Politicians/Bush_Nazi_Dealings.html
discussed here (with many more links): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1584497

Operation Paperclip - 3rd World Traveler
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Operation_Paperclip_file.html

The Ghost of Adolph Hitler: Nazi Influence in America
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/STA310A.html


Mae Brussell: http://www.maebrussell.com/index.html
MAE BRUSSELL'S PICTURE OF THE PENTAGON - THE SPIDER AND THE ODESSA
http://www.newsmakingnews.com/mbspiderweb2,21,83.htm


Ratlines: The CIA and the Nazis (Tarpley)
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/ratlines.htm

CIA's Worst Kept Secret
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/051601a.html

Project Paperclip and Camp Evans (in N.J.)
http://www.infoage.org/paperclip.html

Opn Paperclip (Namebase)
http://www.namebase.org/main3/Operation-Paperclip.html


Project Paperclip: Nazi Scientists Who Performed Human Experimentation in the U. S. http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.htm

Project Paperclip and Literal Nazi Connections
http://www.datafilter.com/mc/paperclip.html
Resources on Human Experimentation by Nazi Doctorszi Experimentation
http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.html
and Resources on Nonconsensual Human Experimentation
http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.html

Operation Paperclip Revisited: Moral Schmoral By RICHARD THIEME, August 22, 2003
http://www.counterpunch.org/thieme08222003.html



and then there's this, which actually includes names:

Nazis / Recruiting
http://www.namebase.org/books43.html

"And do not forget the petty scoundrels in this regime; note their names, so that none will go free! They should not find it possible, having had their part in these abominable crimes, at the last minute to rally to another flag and then act as if nothing had happened!"
-- From the fourth leaflet of the White Rose Resistance in Germany, 1942. Five students and a professor who wrote and distributed the leaflets were executed in 1943.
----------------------------------------------------------

"The CIA, the State Department, and U.S. Army intelligence each created special programs for the specific purpose of bringing selected former Nazis and collaborators to the United States.... The government employed these men and women for their expertise in propaganda and psychological warfare, for work in American laboratories, and even as special guerrilla troops for deployment inside the USSR in the midst of a nuclear war.... Hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of such recruits were SS veterans; some had been officers of the bloody Sicherheitsdienst (SD), the Nazi party's security service."
-- Christopher Simpson, Blowback, 1988.
----------------------------------------------------------

Aarons, Mark and Loftus, John. Unholy Trinity: How the Vatican's Nazi Networks Betrayed Western Intelligence to the Soviets. New York: St.Martin's Press, 1992. 372 pages.

John Loftus is an attorney who worked for the Nazi-hunting unit of the Justice Department until he left in 1981 to write "The Belarus Secret," and Mark Aarons is an Australian investigative reporter whose work led to the prosecution of Nazi war criminals in that country. In this book they present the most comprehensive account yet in two areas of immediate postwar history: the role of the Vatican "Ratlines" in Nazi smuggling, and the involvement of Soviet intelligence in manipulating these events.

Pope Pius XII and Giovanni Montini (later Pope Paul VI) were involved in a massive obstruction of justice, sheltered by U.S. intelligence officers who had plans to use ex-Nazis in the war against Communism. But everything always went wrong when the U.S. sent agents behind the Iron Curtain. Allen Dulles and James Angleton figured that Soviet mole Kim Philby was the problem, so after 1951 they started backing the rival fascist organizations that Philby had denounced. As the authors reveal for the first time, this simply meant that a different faction in Soviet intelligence was now pulling the strings. "By 1959, the United States had lost every courier, safehouse, and intelligence network behind the Iron Curtain. The intelligence scandal was swept quietly under the rug, just as the Vatican scandal before it."


----------------------------------------------------------

Cookridge, E.H. Gehlen: Spy of the Century. New York: Random House, 1972. (Originally published in London by Hodder and Stoughton.) 402 pages.

Hoehne, Heinz and Zolling, Hermann. The General Was a Spy: The Truth About General Gehlen and His Spy Ring. New York: Bantam Books, 1972. 439 pages.

Reese, Mary Ellen. General Reinhard Gehlen: The CIA Connection. Fairfax VA: George Mason University Press, 1990. 231 pages.

Whiting, Charles. Gehlen: Germany's Master Spy. New York: Ballantine Books, 1972. 274 pages.

As Nazi Germany was collapsing, General Reinhard Gehlen, Hitler's chief of eastern front intelligence, buried his files and waited to be captured. He felt certain that access to his files was an offer the Americans couldn't refuse. He was right, of course, partly because the Cold War was already being planned, and partly because Gehlen's scientific collection and analysis methods were very effective. He and his staff cut a deal with the CIA and the Pentagon to absorb his networks and his expertise. As part of the deal, Gehlen transferred his organization (the "Gehlen Org") to West Germany in 1955. He directed the BND until his retirement in 1968, and died in 1979.

British journalist E.H. Cookridge has broad experience with both European politics and espionage reporting. For this book he obtained access to previously-classified documents of Gehlen's activities over 25 years. Of the 24 chapters, nine concern Gehlen as a loyal Nazi, one chapter describes the deal with the Americans in 1945-1946, and 14 follow Gehlen's career in West Germany. The Cold War years saw a lively game of espionage between Gehlen and his East German counterparts; each side had moles planted on the other. The East kept complaining about all the ex-Nazis on Gehlen's staff; in this book Cookridge shows convincingly that "this was not in fact far from the truth." (page 271)

Hoehne and Zolling's book is based on a series they wrote for Der Spiegel in 1971, which in turn prompted Gehlen to write his memoirs. The authors interviewed Org members and drew on personal papers and government documents. They include an introduction by H.R. Trevor-Roper and a preface by Andrew Tully, who quotes Allen Dulles on Gehlen: "I don't know if he's a rascal; there are few archbishops in espionage. He's on our side and that is all that matters. Besides, one needn't ask a Gehlen to one's club."

Mary Ellen Reese offers the first book about Gehlen that concentrates on the American connection. She interviewed former CIA and Army Intelligence officers, and received "hundreds" of documents under FOIA from various agencies. But her claim that this is the first undistorted "full" picture, drawing on "wholly new information," seems unrealistic, as the CIA wouldn't cooperate with her. We also know that PIR advisor Carl Oglesby has been trying for years to sue for Gehlen records that the government considers too sensitive.

Charles Whiting's book is somewhat sensational in tone and doesn't cite sources. The author has written numerous World War II military histories of the same type, judging from their titles. There are altogether too many exclamation points, along with direct quotes that appear to be added for effect rather than accuracy. Most of the book concerns Gehlen's career in Germany, particularly after the war, rather than his associations with U.S. intelligence.


----------------------------------------------------------

Hunt, Linda. Secret Agenda: The United States Government, Nazi Scientists, and Project Paperclip, 1945 to 1990. New York: St.Martin's Press, 1991. 340 pages, including 60 pages of notes.

As World War II was winding down in Europe, the U.S. began looking for Nazi scientists and intelligence officers. They didn't want them for war crimes, although some were guilty of these, but rather to recruit them for the Cold War against the Soviets. President Truman had directed that no Nazis be allowed to immigrate.

Nevertheless at least 1600 scientists and their dependents were brought in under Operation Paperclip, and hundreds more under related programs.

Although most of the publicity has concerned NASA's use of rocket scientists such as Wernher von Braun and Arthur Rudolph, Nazi scientists also conducted chemical warfare experiments on 7000 U.S. soldiers at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland from 1955-1975. The CIA and Army intelligence even paid the scientists to experiment with LSD and other psychochemicals, as the search continued for the ultimate mind-control weapon.

To gather material for this book, Hunt had to plow through the records of numerous government agencies, archives, and libraries, spend years on Freedom of Information Act requests, and threaten the Army with an FOIA lawsuit. It was worth it.


----------------------------------------------------------


Loftus, John. The Belarus Secret. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1982. 197 pages. Edited by Nathan Miller.
For over two years, John Loftus was a prosecutor in the Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, where he investigated the war crimes and subsequent activities of the Belorussian Nazis. In this capacity he coordinated a highly-classified inquiry called the "Belarus Project." This book describes what Loftus uncovered from the files of several U.S. government agencies.

In 1948 a secret section of the State Department began recruiting Belorussian war criminals for guerrilla warfare inside the Soviet bloc. When the operations failed, these Nazi collaborators were allowed to settle in the U.S. As recently as 1978, government departments were lying to Congress in an effort to cover up this history. Loftus blew the whistle on CBS's "60 Minutes" in May 1982, drawing headlines across the nation.

The use of former Nazis by U.S. intelligence is also covered comprehensively in "Blowback" by Christopher Simpson (1988). In another twist to this curious history, Mark Aaron teams up with Loftus to examine the Vatican's Nazi-smuggling and its probable infiltration by Soviet intelligence in "Unholy Trinity" (1992).


----------------------------------------------------------


Simpson, Christopher. Blowback: America's Recruitment of Nazis and Its Effects on the Cold War. New York: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1988. 398 pages.

At the confirmation hearings for Robert Gates as CIA director, Senator Bradley exposed the CIA's manipulation of intelligence data to produce exaggerated estimates of Soviet economic and military strength -- estimates that produced the Reagan-era extravaganza of military spending. However, the Bradley-Gates colloquy did not explore the historical roots of such exaggerations. Simpson fills in the void left by the Senate's lack of historical perspective.

He traces the post-World War II recruitment by the U.S. of defeated Nazi chief of intelligence for Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, Reinhard Gehlen, and the increasing reliance of U.S. intelligence on the Gehlen organization's estimates of Soviet strengths and intentions.

In the critical period from 1945 to 1948, the correct assessments by U.S. military intelligence that the Soviet occupation forces in Eastern Europe were worn out and posed no threat, were supplanted with the Gehlen organization's lie that these same forces were a major military threat posed to invade Germany. The rest is our history, known as the Cold War.

-- Lanny Sinkin

Here are the names most frequently mentioned in the above books (**Note - see link for these hotlinks):
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liberalitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #25
58. Just what we needed MORE cockroaches!!!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. Reminds me of an old joke...
Q:"How many Jews are there in the world"?

A:"140 million".

Q:"How do we know this"?

A:"There are 70 million Germans, and each one swears he saved two".
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. not the purple heart bandaid picture.
That still really pisses me the fuck off.
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. The amazing disappearing chin.
God, what a disgusting example of humanity.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. It's her best angle!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. I remember EVERYONE who supported Bushler!


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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yep, that's what I'm getting at...always remember.
Because soon they are going to start denying it.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. And I will be standing there pointing my finger and screaming...
"NAZI!!!"



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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. I'll never forget...and I'll remind them of their Nazi and fascist ways
that enabled the destruction of our country till the day I die or they die, which ever comes first....

:grr:
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. There are even some good folks here in denial.
I understand because it is very scary, what is happening.

:hug:
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. I guess we are the good folks not in denial and who will always remember

:hug:
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
7. I remember 1974-75
When no one could be found who would admit to voting for Nixon. Never could figure out how he pulled off that landslide against McGovern!
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
38. Amazing, wasn't it?
That was the same era when people were scratching their heads and saying "How could an unelected klutz like Ford ever have become President???"
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Yet Fascism never died
And it won't in 2008, or in 2012, or 2016, or 2020, 2024, 2028, 2032...

It'll change shape, find a new message, put on a new suit.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Fascism is White Aryan Supremecy, now fascism includes
anyone who supports white male privilege, wealth and power.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. I was just reading "Hitler's Willing Executioners"
and I started wondering what psychologically happened to Germans after WW2 -- they'd been increasingly anti-semitic for generations; did they just drop it, just like that?
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
17. The comparison is scary.
Swing Heil!
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rudy23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. I wish I could agree with you
Unfortunately, there are legions of college Republicans who think Karl Rove is God, and they have studied his playbook judiciously. Wait till you see what brand of conservatism Generations X and Y have cooked up.

The neocons may die as a movement, but callousness, materialism, religious fanaticism, and fear of freedom will be here the rest of our lives. We have to be ready to fight for the long haul.
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. But they'll just cling to some other fascist and deny ties to Bush.
Where are the legions of Nixon voters today?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think we need to understand the difference between real
conservatism and fascism. Remember the Nazis called themselves socialists and friends of the working man. They were anything but, yet they duped a lot of people into believing in them because of these claims.

I think the PNAC fascists have done the same with honest but empty-headed Republicans. The elite Republicans know exactly what they are doing, but they wouldn't have the political clout that they do if they didn't dupe a large portion of the population into believing in them and their ideology.

The present day Republican fascists have accomplished this the same way the Nazis did by appealing to the bigotry and religious zeal of those who vote for them.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. It took a world war, millions of deaths and the country in question was
destroyed.

Ouch.

And dammit, I hate seeing that band-aid lady.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. I hate to be a wet blanket...
...but can we really call them Nazis? I do believe fascist is an appropriate term, but until they're really herding us into actual buses to go to actual detention camps or to be actually killed, it seems a little nutty.

I'm worried about the future, to be sure. But if this were Nazi Germany, none of us would feel comfortable enough to express this level of rage against the administration in a public forum, where the "Nazis" can clearly identify us if they wish.

I understand "Nazi" is shorthand for "violent conformist oppression," but to say these guys are literally as bad as the Nazis kind of diminishes how bad the Nazis really were. Any freeper could take a bunch of pictures of the Dem Convention and pair them off with Hitler rally photos. That doesn't mean they should.
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Keseys Ghost Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. How about Nazi lite?
Edited on Thu Mar-02-06 06:53 PM by Keseys Ghost
Just wonderin'.
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Well, look at it this way.....
The NAZIs weren't the real NAZIs until 1941 or so. It took them a while through the 30's and into the war before they really started 'rounding people up in buses.'

I think peeps around here are just trying to identify their intentions and motives before they perfect their operations. They are already pretty well entrenched.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I get that
I'm not saying it couldn't happen.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. The Nazis were Nazis before the Holocaust
Starting in January 1933, they implemented their agenda a little at a time to get the German volk acclimated to the new system. The Holocaust itself is considered to have begun in November 1938 with the infamous Kristallnacht riots, and started to really accelerate after the invasion of Poland in September 1939.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. 1941, it began in earnest, with the infamous breakfast meeting and...
the agreement that the gas vans just weren't efficient enough, so the "final solution" and death-camp gas chambers were agreed upon.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. I agree with you, yet the mentality of those who defend twisted torture,
who vigorously fight to keep Congress from stopping them from conducting detailed "professional" personalized torture on human beings in cold dark basements...cannot be far from the Nazis. It's pure evil.

I did not feel this way until certain very recent DemocracyNow programs detailing the torture techniques being used by the CIA. There are people dying in the secret prisons, though it's global, and the psychopathic intent, the complete dehumanization of the victims is unspeakable. There is no way to know where this is headed.

As you read this, remember that we only know a small part about what is going on. There are plenty of efforts to cover up and minimize what is happening.

One of my clients is Binyam Mohammed. He was rendered to Morocco. We’ve got the flight logs. We know the very names of the soldiers who were on the flight, and he was taken there, and he was tortured for 18 months, a razor blade taken to his penis, for goodness sake, and now the U.S. military is putting him on trial in Guantanamo. Hassin bin Attash, a 17 year-old juvenile who was taken to Jordan and tortured there for 16 months.
...
Another former prisoner of U.S. forces, a Jordanian, describes a form of torture which involved being hung in a cage from a rope for days. Hussein Abdelkader Youssef Mustafa, a Palestinian living in Jordan, told Clive Stafford Smith he was sodomized by U.S. soldiers during detention at Bagram in 2002. He said, ‘They forcibly rammed a stick up my rectum – excruciatingly painful. Only when the pain became overwhelming did I think I would ever scream, but I could not stop screaming when this happened.’”
...
he described how four soldiers took him, one on each shoulder, one bent down his head and then the fourth of them took this broomstick and shoved it up his rectum.

Now there was no one in that room -- and they were from a variety of places -- who didn't believe that what this man was saying was true, but I am afraid, I’ve got to tell you, that that’s far from the worst that’s happened. When you talk about Bagram, when you talk about Kandahar, those aren’t the worst places the U.S. has run in Afghanistan. The dark prison, sometimes called “Salt Pit,” in Kabul itself, which is separate from Bagram, has been far worse than that, and I can tell you stories from there that just make your skin crawl.
...
Yeah, I'll tell you some of the ones, for example, that Binyam Mohammed told me. He was the man who had the razor blade taken to him. He was then taken, and again, we can prove it. We’ve got the flight logs. He was taken on January 25, 2004, to Kabul, where he was put in this dark prison for five months, and he was shackled. You just get this vision of the Middle Ages, where he’s shackled on the wall with his hands up, so he can't quite sit down. It’s totally dark in that place.

When the U.S. says that people are being treated nicely in Bagram, you’ve got to be kidding me. It’s the middle of winter, and they're freezing to death, and this man was in this cell, no heating, absolutely freezing, no clothing, except for his shorts, totally dark for 24 hours a day with this howling noise around him. They began with Eminem music, interestingly enough; they played him Eminem music for 24 hours a day for 20 days. Seems to me Eminem ought to be suing them for royalties over that, but then it got worse and they started doing these screeching noises, and this is going on 24 hours a day...

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
50. Maybe you need to re-read your German history, starting with....
...1934 when the Nazis took power in Germany with Hitler being named Chancellor. It wasn't until 1939-1940 when the Nazis began to round up the "undesirables" in large numbers in Germany and the countries they occupied at that point in time...Poland, France, and others. The "Final Solution wasn't formally put into high gear until 1941, seven years after the Nazis took power.

The NeoCons have been in power since the Coup of December 2000...six years ago. To date, they are responsible for the deaths of at least 40,000 Afghans and 100,000 Iraqis...if (or when) we attack Iran, how many Iranians will die before the end of 2006?

How many secret POW camps are being operated by the NeoCons around the world? How many camps exist in the U. S. as a result of REX 84...600? 800? What is their purpose? Why are they currently manned by guards?

How many additional freedoms in this country will disappear as long as the NeoCons maintain control in this country?

Yes, the NeoCons ARE just as bad as the Nazis. The goal is to keep them from doing as much damage as the Nazis did between 1934-1945, or worse.
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. I don't know
I have a feeling their poll numbers would drop even further if they tried declaring martial law and declaring Jon Stewart an enemy combatant. Yes they have killed a lot of Iraqis, And Democrats killed a lot of Vietnamese just as pointlessly. But I don't think there's enough support even among Republicans for a Nazi-type operation. I also don't think they'd be able to keep the grunts in line for something so evil. I think their basic plan is to keep us as clueless as possible and take everybody's money.

I'm scared of these guys, definitely. Maybe I'll be eating those words.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. "Democrats killed a lot of Vietnamese"?? Ike, with....
...Nixon as his VP, sent the first advisors to Vietnam in 1954, and the first American was killed in that country in 1956. By the time Ike left office in 1960, 16,000 Americans were stationed in Vietnam.

Yes, LBJ escalated the war, and yes, a lot of Vietnamese and Americans were killed while he was president from 1963-1968. Just as many Vietnamese were killed during the massive bombing of Hanoi, and the escalation of the war into Cambodia, all of which took place during Nixon's 6-year presidency from 1968 until his resignation in 1974.

Very few Nazi party members knew what was happening in the concentration camps, or even knew that the camps existed. That knowledge was held pretty closely by the top ranks of the party. Germans who were not members of the Nazi Party, which was the vast majority of the remaining German population, learned very early not to ask questions about what they saw and heard.

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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. I'm not as historically ignorant as you seem to think
I know all that stuff, just as I knew about the Nazis' rise to power. My point remains--both JFK & LBJ remained engaged in Vietnam. My larger point is that you can't really cite a foreign invasion in arguing for the Nazi label. All kinds of countries invade other ones. That doesn't make them Nazis. Concentration camps, ethnic/ideological cleansing...that's Nazi stuff.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Do you know about NSAM 263, signed by JFK on October 12,....
...1963? If not, that NSAM called for the withdrawal of the first 1,000 troops from Vietnam. JFK's plan was to withdraw ALL American troops from Vietnam by the end of 1965. That indicates that JFK was trying NOT to "remain engaged" in Vietnam.

Four days after JFK's assassination, LBJ signed NSAM 273 which called for supporting the government of South Vietnam with anything they needed. The phantom "Tonkin Gulf Incident" gave LBJ the excuse he needed to escalate the war in Vietnam.

Just out of curiousity, what do you think we did to Afghanistan and Iraq? Were those not invasions of foreign countries? Aren't the NeoCons planning to attack Iran and Syria in the very near future?

Maybe you also should do a search on REX 84. You might find it interesting to know that there are somewhere between 600 and 800 operational detention camps all over the U. S. You also know about the camp at Gitmo and what we're doing to prisoners in that hell-hole. Recent revelations in the media indicates that we are also operating camps in eastern europe...how ironic to know that the vast majority of the Nazi death/concentration camps were also located in eastern Europe, primarily Poland.

Let's see...an illegal seizure of power in December 2000, a major terrorist event that led to the Draconian measures of the Patriot Act, covert spying on American citizens, attempts to intimidate political opponents, and two illegal invasions of foreign countries. Looks like a Nazi, sounds like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi...what's your guess as to what these people are?

And let's not forget that our fearless leader had a grandfather who made loans to the Nazis until 1942, well after we were at war with Germany. Did you know those funds were used to help build Auschwitz? Did you know that Karl Rove's grandfather was a high-ranking Nazi official at Auschwitz?

Too many "coincidences", don't you think?
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. You make a strong case....
...and I did just hear about REX 84 the other day--scary shit. But, as the LBJ example indicates, Republicans are not the only ones to get us into ill-advised wars. A lot of Americans did business with the Nazis, too. I don't know--maybe I just hesitate to make the comparison because I think it makes us less credible in the eyes of the very people we need to convince.

As to Afghanistan & Iraq, I don't think I said anything about those not being what you said they were. Did I?

Can you give me a link to the Rex 84 thing? I need a credible source to go at some Neo-conned associates with.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. Oh yes, we can.
I talk to people I used to enjoy being around. When I bring up politics and criticize Bush, their eyes glaze over as they begin rote recitation of their defense of him.

It scares me to see otherwise intelligent, loving people being sucked in by him. They voted for him in 2000, and they just refuse to believe that the man is absolutely evil. I would have considered them "good Americans" a half-decade ago. I just can't figure out what happened to them.

:(
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dorkulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. It's sad
I know. Some are just scared of the terrorist, and some are just too conditioned to believing in "our president."
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. "You F'd up - you trusted W"
GOPers: Now admit that major mistake and get on with your party.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. fucking perfect!
excellent job!

:thumbsup:
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
30. The power of the pardon...Remember Iran/Contra..Watergate..BCCI?
The creepiest of the creepy get pardoned, sent off to the hinterlands (translation: TEXAS) to re-group and plan for the next raid on the treasury..

a few stooges do a little time, but most emerge from jail in better financial shape that before they went in,.. they write books ,get radio shows. get government jobs..

Until Democrats are willing to "finish them off", they will just keep returning to power..
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. If you think "five years from now" is all there will be ...
Edited on Thu Mar-02-06 07:25 PM by TahitiNut
... I have a bridge to sell you. :eyes:

Pollyanna was a pessimist compared to that rose-colored view. Fascism is deeply-entrenched in the American body politic today and it has gotten monotonically worse, without recovery, for nearly thirty years! The acceleration during the last five years will not be stopped in the next five years, and the recovery to merely the state we had at the end of the Nixon administration will take decades at an absolute minimum!! I do not expect to be alive to see it, nor do I expect anyone old enough to have voted during the Reagan years to live long enough to see it.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
33. I live in a super red area, and all of the cars on my block have peeled
the W stickers off.. I haven't seen one anywhere in a long time..
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. Another thing they will claim......
is that they had no idea Bush was such a skunk. Bullshit!! The information was there. If they didn't know it, it was because they didn't want to know.

I'm feeling vindictive. When I here someone complaining about Bush, I ask them if they voted for him. If they say yes, then I say,
"Then it's your own damned fault!"
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
37. As I scrolled through your pics, there was one I was hoping to see.
I did:



Some people will not be able to hide their connection to the Bu$hco criminals. She is one. Her support of the damnable Swiftboaters help send this country further down the road to total destruction under the Bu$h regime. God damn her mean soul.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
40. Of course, it's still 1933 here in Imperial Amerika
How many of us will survive to make it to "1948"?

If history is any judge, not many.

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
41. Actually the surveillance will probably increase
"Police state USA and Big Brother's most cool tool"
New national ID: A totalitarian dream coming true

The grand finale of American fascism is yet to come. No totalitarian ruling structure would be complete without an oppressive identification system that allows the dictator’s henchmen to access birth-to-death information on every citizen listed in the national database. It’s becoming obvious that no one is intended to escape the dictator’s dynamic plans to force upon us national ID cards and, eventually, under-the-skin identification implants and a satellite tracking system able to keep each of us under round-the-clock surveillance.

<snip>

The Real ID Act passed by Congress in December 2005 completely solidified Ellison’s ID plan. This new law establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated federal ID database. It forces all 50 states to spend millions of dollars to update their equipment so that by 2008, all holders of U.S. drivers licenses and state licensed ID cards will have their biometric data and other personal information fed directly into the national data base. Congressman Paul says the new ID cards will likely contain radio frequency identification tracking technology that can be read by scanners at a distance, allowing the governments of U.S., Canada and Mexico to quickly locate any card-bearing American.75


We are told that banks and credit card companies applaud a national ID system.76 Instead of using bank credit and debit cards, people may eventually make purchases by showing their biometric Homeland ID cards. These transactions will then end up in the federal database, permitting fascists to assess our motives and intentions by monitoring our cashless sales and purchases.

<snip>

Digital Angel: Fascist Big Brother’s most cool tool

Passive ID subdermal chips are the "good news" compared to grotesque ACTIVE implant chips also developed by ADS. The implantable Digital Angel is a grotesque communication device that can continually relay information wirelessly to either ground stations or to satellite systems.96 Developed to be a true tracking chip like the bulky radio ankle bracelets locked onto prisoners, it is tiny enough to be implanted into human flesh. The Angel has a built-in GPS receiver and a wireless transceiver. In December, 2004, ADS signed an agreement with the satellite telecommunications company ORBCOMM. Such collusion will one day turn implanted citizens into walking radio beacons, trackable by satellite.97 Digital Angel is the ultimate in totalitarian control, to date Big Fascist Brother’s most "cool tool."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12121.htm

The issues we have at hand are not going to disappear simply by the demise of the Bush Admin. the problems go much deeper than that.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-02-06 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
44. In 1972 Nixon won by a landslide.
By the end of 1974 you could hardly find anyone who'd admit to having voted for him. I'm thinking that the time will come when nobody will admit to having voted for Bush, either.
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TheModernTerrorist Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
47. won't happen without international involvement
But let's hope they don't become that big of a threat that Europe has to roll through...
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
48. one problem...
the super powers at that time came together to stop the Nazi regime. the only super power now is us and we are now the pre-final solution version of Germany. so who will help us?
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
49. This isn't the 1940's yet, it's more like the 1930's -
The worst is yet to come, unless they are stopped.

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
51. I've always said Bush will leave office one of the most hated Prez's
of all time. We're just not quite there yet.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. By the time he leaves, or is driven from office, most Americans....
...will know that he has never been a duly elected president. He gained power during the December Coup of 2000, not as a result of a legally held election.
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deutsey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
56. There was barely any Germany left either. n/t
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KyuzoGator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-03-06 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
63. Kick nt
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