Thursday will see the death of Ariel Sharon

[WilliamPitt]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/05/international/middleeast/05sharon.html?ei=5094&en=f10e5f614cf49fe8&hp=&ex=1136523600&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1136449828-fE0n/qBhgPBjPGFCDvDU0g

Sharon Suffers 'Extensive' Stroke and Is 'Very Grave'
By STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: January 5, 2006

JERUSALEM, Thursday, Jan. 5 - Prime Minister Ariel Sharon suffered a serious stroke on Wednesday night and was undergoing emergency brain surgery in an effort to save his life, a hospital official said.

Mr. Sharon's power as prime minister was transferred to Deputy Premier Ehud Olmert. Israeli politics, dominated in recent years by Mr. Sharon, were thrown into turmoil, especially with growing lawlessness in the Gaza Strip.

Mr. Sharon suffered "an extensive stroke and one could say his condition is very grave," Dr. Shlomo Mor-Yosef, the director of Hadassah-Ein Kerem hospital, said about 7 a.m. local time after the prime minister had been returned to the operating room for what was expected to be hours more of surgery. He said that Mr. Sharon, 77 and overweight, had suffered a cerebral hemorrhage with "massive bleeding."

...more...

Even if by a miracle he survives the night and the day, his influence in politics is over. Ariel (“Arik”) Sharon was born at Kfar Malal on February 27, 1928. He served in the IDF for more than 25 years, retiring with the rank of Major-General. He holds an LL.B in Law from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem (1962). He joined the Haganah at the age of 14 in 1942. Invading Lebanon was his idea:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/profiles/1154622.stm

Respect him or despise him, Sharon's influence and effect upon our history is undeniable. For good and/or ill, he was a giant. May he rest.

[fishwax]

1. yikes! the cryptic title made it sound like some vague, veiled threat

I hadn't heard about the stroke. I'm no fan of his politics, but agree with your last line.

[Radio_Lady]

35. Will, do you have some psychic ability? Sharon may die soon,

but you really don't know if it will be now or a longer time from now. This was too flippant a subject line and I hope you admit it. Perhaps you will be right, but Sharon could be left on a respirator and "still alive" on January 5, 2006. By the way, I am tracking a former co-worker who also suffered a "massive stroke" in last days of December. As far as I know, he is still alive this morning.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/5627433/detail.html

UPDATE: My former co-worker actually died this morning.

http://www.nbc6.net/news/5627743/detail.html

RIP, Skipper. February 4, 1925 - January 4, 2006

Good night and good luck...

Radio_Lady

[donheld]

38. What is better, die tomorrow or linger on life support

I see nothing flippant at all about the heading.

[Radio_Lady]

53. "Thursday will see the death of Sharon..." isn't flippant? Well, donheld,

it's clear that we disagree. Will knows how to write a better subject line, I just know he does. For me, and my co-worker, who had a massive stroke last week and was not expected to live, it took several days before he passed away on Wednesday, January 4, 2006.

In response to your question, of course, most of us feel that dying quickly is to be fervently favored, but that was not the reason I responded. I respect your right to disagree if you did not find the OP's subject line distasteful.

Making worldwide peace a priority in 2006,

Radio_Lady

RIP, Skipper -- February 4, 1925 -- January 4, 2006

[onenote]

55. agreed. It sounds vaguely "fristian" to make that sort of prediction

I know that isn't what was intended, but it sort of comes out that way.

onenote

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BuyingThyme]

3. ABC's using the word "grave" also.

(grave condition)

[KharmaTrain]

4. The Page Turns...

Having witnessed what strokes can do, I saw red flags last week when they reported he had a small one. How ironic he departs right in the midst of more turmoil of his own creation.

The irony here is a year ago, Arafat suffered a similar end and also leaving behind a confused and divided political situation. Maybe out of all this confusion something new, different and positive can arise.

[shance]

42. Let's be honest, shall we? Arafat apparently was poisoned.

n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Was he?

Let me guess...the Mossad did it! :eyes:

[shance]

46. Boy you are up for damage control arent you tonight?

God forbid that pesky truth get out, huh?

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Yup!

G-d forbid lies, innuendos, and bigoted opinions get passed off as fact.

[KharmaTrain]

51. And There's Definitive Proof?

Arafat was 75 or so...and even without poisoning, he lived a hard life that had to have taken its toll. Over the last decade of his life, one could easily see how he was starting to suffer from some kind of cerebral problem...Parkinsons or small strokes. His speech slurred and his movements became labored. Sharon, until this episode always appeared robust...albeit overweight, but far from the weak and fading figure Arafat became in his last years.

I saw my mother deteriorate with strokes over several years...it's painful to watch someone lose control and become a prisoner in their own body. No matter how I feel about Sharon's politics, I wish him and his family comfort and peace.

[bluestateguy]

5. I'll take him to Bibi Netanyahu ANY DAY

and sometimes Sharon pleasantly surprised me, such as with the Gaza pullout.

[HEyHEY]

6. Couldn't live without Arafat eh?

Sorry, bad, dark humour.
Truly, I hope he pulls through. The last thing I want is the next week on DU a total bombardment of debates about if Sharon was good or bad for the middle east.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. There will be no debate...

...there will only be a 'total bombardment' of anti-Israeli sentiment and crass "pissing on his grave" remarks.

[bluestateguy]

8. Yep. Saddle up.

It'll be ugly, from the same crowd that would sleep just fine if Israel was driven into the sea (though they will never say so).

[HEyHEY]

9. Ah, yes, pardon me... THAT'S what I meant

It's gonna be one of them grand ole times on DU where we ignore reason and sling mud as a corpse rots.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Honest question

"from the same crowd that would sleep just fine if Israel was driven into the sea (though they will never say so)."

Do you mean that? Do you really believe there are DUers who advocate the deaths of every Israeli citizen? Or is this hyperbole meeting hyperbole?

I have a better opinion of this place than you, it seems.

[bluestateguy]

18. reply

"from the same crowd that would sleep just fine if Israel was driven into the sea (though they will never say so)."

Do you mean that? Do you really believe there are DUers who advocate the deaths of every Israeli citizen? Or is this hyperbole meeting hyperbole?

I have a better opinion of this place than you, it seems.


I think there is a faction of people here on DU, in the vocal minority, who, while they would not advocate such a thing, they would either not condemn it or would only half-heartedly condemn the killing of Israelis. And even then, only in the context of "I told you so" accusations against Israeli policies and "chickens come home to roost" rhetoric and posturing.

And now it seems that whenever a Palestinian suicide bomber kills a dozen Israelis you can't condemn it, unless you make obligatory statements in the same post bashing Israeli government policies. As if condemning a suicide bomber who kills civilians somehow automatically means that person is a far-right Likud supporter.

The Israeli-Palestinian thing is like an endless dispute between two rival schoolyard bullies, when most of the people who get hurt are innocent bystanders.

[WilliamPitt]

21. Gotcha

For the record, what you've described above is a hell of a lot different than saying there are DUers who want to see Israel driven into the sea. You speak of the verbal calisthenics one must go through to discuss this issue without getting flamed. I'd agree, but would point out that statemens like yours, the one I originally questioned, are as inflammatory and destructive as anything you describe. Hyperbole from any angle doesn't help, especially in a debate this charged.

(/moralistic rant)

[AtomicKitten]

39. Sharon became the dichotomy between violence and peace.

I really despised his hard-line tactics in the past, but he was the conduit for peace in the end.
I only hope his final dream reaches fruition.

[jonnyblitz]

10. is criticism of george bush anti-american sentinemt in your

eyes also? I have visited Haifa when i was in the navy, I loved it and the people that I met while there and I despise Sharon with every fiber of my being. I am NOT anti-Israel. don't do EXACTLY what the right does to us when we criticize Bush. Please.

[HEyHEY]

13. WOOHOO! I started the first one while condeming the very behaviour

Of bickering over it.... oht he poetic justice is thick in the air.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. No.

I do not care for Sharon's policies in many cases. But many here cannot (do not?) separate the politics from the country.

A positive post about Israel cannot exist at DU because of the Israeli-haters.

[tavalon]

16. It sucks

but that is the way it is. I don't agree with anything my fascist government does but if I go over to Europe, I will call myself Canadian, for my protection. I am hated worldwide as are you because of our government.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. This is true.

However, one would think at a board such as DU, not all Americans would be painted as bush-bots, just as all Israelis and her supporters should be labeled "Likudists." Of course, it is similar to some posts about religious people, atheists, etc. I guess in a community this size (about as many members as a mid-sized city) all kinds lurk about.

[mike_c]

19. this thread is about Ariel Sharon, not about Israel....

If you'd like to talk about DUer's opinions of Israel, start another thread (in the I/P dungeon, of course). In the meantime, please stop trying to play the anti-israel, anti-semitic card everytime someone criticizes Ariel Sharon's lifelong service for genocide.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. As if on cue...

No one said anything about anti-Semitic, well, except you. Interestingly enough, a thread about anti-Semitism was sent to I/P because it became about Israel. If you think for one moment that discussions about Sharon will not involve Israel, then I am sure you think discussion about the Pope will not include issues about Catholics. :eyes:

[punpirate]

34. Perhaps that statement...

... ("A positive post about Israel cannot exist at DU because of the Israeli-haters") needs some explication. Let's look at some, uh, realities for a moment. The US is getting a generally bad rap across Europe because of Bush. But, talk of election count irregularities aside for a moment, we reelected the bastard in 2004. That gave the detractors of US policy an opportunity to say that the citizens of the US generally agreed with Bush's policies (and those policies are at the root of the world's complaints about the US). In that sense, US citizens were implicated in those policies.

I see no difference in that situation from the condemnation of Sharon's policies with regard to Israeli citizens' involvement in them--they've continued to reelect right-wing politicians such as Sharon for the same reasons that US citizens have generally favored right-wing candidates in this country over the last twenty-five years. Let us not forget, in that context, that the first peace candidate in Israel to win office in many years, Itzhak Rabin, was assassinated by a right-wing Israeli because of his proposed policies with regard to the occupied territories.

Just as here, there's probably 35-40% of the population in Israel which sees politicians such as Sharon as inhibiting real peace for political purposes. Robert Fisk has been villified both here and in Israel for stating the obvious--that political leaders on all sides have been the primary reason for human suffering in the region, but he's correct in that estimation, and Sharon has been one of those leaders promoting that suffering for political purposes--in many of the same ways as has George W. Bush, and his father before him.

The Israeli government has adopted many policies over the years which right-wing pro-Israeli forces in this country defend, but should not have. Sharon has been an integral part of and proponent of those policies. You can roll your eyes at the suggestion that Sharon was a part of the Sabra and Shatila massacres, but he was. His acquiescence in the actions of the Lebanese Phalangists (read fascist sympathizers here) is well-known, except among the defend-Israel-at-all-costs crowd.

If there's lack of sympathy for Sharon's current condition, it's because of his political life and his actions over time. The same thing happened here--among absolutist supporters of Israel and Sharon--when Arafat died. Both individuals promoted continuing conflict and intractability diplomatically. Neither served their people well, and American leaders such as Bush have only made the problem worse. That Bush aligned himself with right-wing Israeli policy certainly didn't improve Sharon's standing in this community. That should be accepted and understood by even the most ardent supporter of Israel here.

Cheers.

[Behind the Aegis]

37. No explanation really needed.

Do a search (an advanced one, if very curious). Posts about Israeli discoveries in medicine, sports teams, and various other things will be met with the typical barrage of anti-Israeli crap. It is very similar to the Southern-bashing that occurs here. It just gets really old. It is that 'group' think mentality that "Israel = bad." Name me ANY country that doesn't have a rocky past?! I bet you can't. It just seems some here salivate at the opportunity to bash Israel, as a country.

[mike_c]

12. here's some "anti-Israeli sentiment" from Wikipedia...

...that the rest of us just call history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

[Behind the Aegis]

15. .

:eyes:

[still_one]

24. what is your point?

[mike_c]

27. Sharon is a genocidal maniac....

Mourning his death is like mourning Osama bin Laden.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. A voice of reason.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. self-deleted

[BikeWriter]

22. * "man of peace!"

[WilliamPitt]

23. I've just hit alert on my own post

and asked it to be moved.

Until people can discuss Israel without getting crazy at each other, the dying and mayhem will continue.

[still_one]

25. That is what the middle east is all about

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Ahem...

...according to post #23: "this thread is about Ariel Sharon, not about Israel...."

[mike_c]

29. the dying and mayhem have very little to do with discussions on DU....

Just the opposite, in fact.

[donheld]

30. All We Are Saying...

Is Give Peace A Chance. Will, Will it ever be? :shrug:

[greyl]

41. Oh c'mon, man.

Some of us here can see the wizard. (that's a reference to Oz - I'm not comparing you to a wizard)

Why not start a new post on Friday?

[LibertyorDeath]

28. I'm sure they'll erect a statue to him in Jenin.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1937048.stm

[clitzpah queen]

36. Sharon not just guilty for Sabra and Shatilla, as agriculture minister

in the mid-late 70's he ordered military tanks to squash into the ground living quarters (tents, etc) of nomadic Bedouin folks who lived in the desert. I lived on a Kibbutz in the fall of '78 that had had members who laid their bodies in front of Sharon's tanks to stop that inhumane assault when it was going on. He was always known for his temper and arrogance.
There's obviously been some shift in his position--for practical purposes-- due to his grasp on reality that endless violence would only hurt his beloved country -- but he never renounced any of his atrocities. It IS such a SAD state of affairs that with HIS potential passing the "peace process" will be severely hampered.

[shance]

43. What was that young woman's name. Rachel Corrie?

What a heartbreaking, outrageous incident, where the man who murdered her on the bulldozer got off SCOT FREE.

She was blocking the leveling of the house of a Palestinian doctor.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. good analysis.

:eyes:

[Karmakaze]

50. Better than yours

:rofl:

[Cooley Hurd]

48. Doesn't sound good for Sharon, nor for Israel...

What I fear most is a grab for power by Bibi Netanyahu or other Likud hardliners. Sharon's a right-wing nitwit, but there's scarier nitwits in the wings.

Regardless of when Sharon actually expires, his PM days are over.

[Walt Starr]

49. Wow, this will mark the passing of two sides of the same coin

Both Yassar Arafat and Ariel Sharon were wicked, evil, murderous men.

I must give Sharon one thing, though. He did finally grant the Palestinians the Gaza. Though not a complete movement to peace, it was a start.

[mattclearing]

56. I was hopeful for his new moderate political movement.

Hopefully that coalition will survive his loss, lest Likud make a resurgence.

[Walt Starr]

57. I fully expect a Likkud resurgence. n/t

[mattclearing]

58. That's too bad, because Netanyahu is fucking crazy. n/t

[Clark2008]

52. Ironic that he and Arafat should, essentially, go the same way.

Strokes that debilitate and worsen them.

This should prove, once and for all, that one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and both are human.

(For the record, my ex-husband is Palestinian and my future husband - in two days - is Jewish. My perspective is so completely rounded and grounded and fair, it's odd.)

[mattclearing]

54. I dunno about death, but he certainly won't be regaining consciousness.nt

[Leftist_Warrior]

59. Good bye you butcher! I hope it hurt... n/t

[lovuian]

60. The Lesson here is All men are mortal...

and its the legacy you leave!!!

[stop the bleeding]

61. you said it better than I could

Respect him or despise him, Sharon's influence and effect upon our history is undeniable. For good and/or ill, he was a giant. May he rest.