The Minimum Wage and the 10/1000/10,000 rule.

[BlueJazz]

My Grandfather and Father were over at my house last night
and we got to talking about the Minimum Wage and how it relates to
the average price of "stuff" nowadays.

They brought up the 10/1000/10,000 rule that applied when THEY were growing up.

In my Fathers day, He was making $2.10 an hour.

10X$2.10= Average cost of Rent per week ..21.00 (about Right)
1000X$2.10= Average cost of new car...$2,100 (about Right)
10,000X$2.10= Average cost of small home...$21,000 (again..about Right)

NOW...Apply that rule in these times and you truly see how far behind
the Minimum wage has fallen..

10X$5.10= Apartment 51 bucks a week...HA!
1000X$5.10= New Car...$5,100....Yeah Right...
10,000$5.10= New small home...$51,000....Not even close..

Disgusting... and people wonder why the poor can't afford shit...

[Hello_Kitty]

1. About what time frame were they talking about?

How long ago? I'd be interested in seeing some graphs of how this has changed over time.

[papau]

2. It begins with Reagan in most Graphs.

:-)

[Daphne08]

4. Yep, you're right. I'm old and I've observed the shift of

money upward.

Trickle down, my ass!!!

[Matariki]

24. it begins with the emergence of credit cards

the ol' company store scam

[BlueJazz]

5. I Think? in the 50's and 60's and maybe into the 70's

I do remember my dad buying a new Ford for 2300 dollars
and my first apartment was 100 bucks per month (25 a week)

[acmejack]

7. That formula works for the sixties

Remeber the the Ford Maverick? Didn't it sell for $995? I know my Dad bought a nice new home in 1970 for $23K.

[SoCalDem]

32. Nope. We bought our new Maverick in 1973 for $2300.00

Our rent for a three bedroom brick house with a huge back yard and a garage was $175.00 a month. Gasoline was about 39 cents a gallon (until the oil crisis later that year)..My husband made $1,000.00 a month.

We could have bought a nifty little house a block from the beach (Lake Michigan) in the same community as John Roberts ..Long Beach, Indiana......It was for sale for $25,000.00, but we could not afford the 20% down payment. so we passed.. That same house is probably worth 1/2 a mil today :(

[Arkansas Granny]

15. Found a page that shows minimum wage from 1955 forward.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0774473.html

[TahitiNut]

23. HERE'S A BETTER CHART (mine!) - 1938-2005 (In 2004 dollars)

:evilgrin: (Call it pride of authorship.)

[papau]

29. excellent - looks like $9.00 is required to return to 1968 values

:-)

[hootinholler]

49. May I post a link to this graph on a newpaper board?

For freeper smack downage purposes. This guy said why not $100/hr as bait.

-Hoot

[TahitiNut]

51. Certainly.

Be my guest.

[hootinholler]

52. Thanks TN!

[question everything]

58. I wonder whether one reason the graph is high for the 70s

is because these were years of high inflation and high interest rate.

We purchased a house in 1982 with a mortgage rate of 14%!! And when we moved to another state the next year, it was 16% - and we decided to rent, instead.

But I think that the rule that a house should cost about twice the annual income held until the last five years, or so. Except in high real esate areas like CA and NY and DC.

A main problem is cost of health care that has been climbing faster than the rate of inflation, and fewer and fewer people can afford health insurance.

Minimum wage should allow people to pay for the basic "basket" of needs. And I think that somewhere in the Federal Gov't such a basket is calculated.

The reality is that our "leaders" view minimum wage as "pocket money" for young people who still live at home, or as a second income.

And it is not as if income above minimum can provide much support, either.

And then, the increasing gap between the compensation for CEOs and the average one in their organization.

[Hello_Kitty]

36. Wow, thank you.

If that doesn't demonstrate that minimum wage needs to be raised considerably, I don't know what does.

[SteppingRazor]

3. By that rationale, the minimum wage should be about $12/hr...

Sounds good to me.

[SmokingJacket]

20. I agree.

That's the minimum of what my time's worth.

[TahitiNut]

35. I'd advocate $9/hour in CONCERT WITH a 36-hour workweek and ...

... double rate for over 9 hours in any day or over 36 hours in any week or on any seventh day in a 7-day week. (This permits workweeks of from four 9-hour days to six 6-hour days.) I would also prohibit exemptions from such labor standards for any non-executive-management employee. It's an abomination that employers are now getting away with declaring secretaries and clerical employees as 'exempt' and coercing unpaid overtime! Such abuses of both law and labor are unconscionable!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

6. Here's a fun little site....

Consumer Price Index (CPI) Calculator
Find out how much the value of the dollar has changed over time. The Consumer Price Index Calculator allows you to enter a dollar amount, then find out how its purchasing power has changed over a time period of your specification.

http://www.qualityinfo.org/olmisj/DoQuery?itemid=00000027


For example in Nov. 1985 you could spend $10. Now that same product will cost you $18.13

Yet the national min. wage has not gone up.
:mad:

earliest date you can imput is 1975. That $10 worth would cost you $35.73 today. :wow: :cry:


Portland DU'er MeetUp - Saturday January 7
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=65465&mesg_id=65465

[madokie]

12. And in '75 I was making 3/4 of what my last job paid in '05

I tell our kids that they are doing good with what they have had to work with. I woulda' starved to death. 10.00 dollars an hour here is what you can expect to start out at if you have a semi-skill. What is being forced upon our children is wrong.

[Flubadubya]

8. My folks had a brand new brick home built in 1961...

The house was a very nice three-bedroom, two bath, living room, den, enclosed double car garage, central AC/heat for guess how much... $13,000. Can you even imagine? They sold the thing in 1986 for close to $70,000. Now it's probably worth more than triple that! Sheez.

Yep, those were the good old days.

[librechik]

9. too bad our contented parents didn't insist the minimum wage be indexed

to inflation. We'd be flyin' high right about now.

[G_j]

10. Minimum wage FAQ

Minimum wage FAQ
Last updated December 2005


http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issueguides_minwage_minwagefaq

<snip>
Can a worker support a family on the minimum wage?
One way to answer this question is to ask whether a full-time worker earning the minimum wage would have an income below the federal poverty line. A full-time worker (working 2,080 hours a year) earning $5.15 an hour would earn $10,712 a year, well below the 2003 federal poverty line of $14,824 for a family of three. However, there are several factors that complicate this analysis. First, not all workers can find full-time work, and others are unable to balance full-time work with family responsibilities. Second, federal programs such as the EITC and food stamps boost the reported incomes of working families. And third, the federal poverty line is viewed by many as an inadequate measure of the income needed to support a family.

Taking into account the EITC, the current minimum wage is still inadequate to support a single parent with two children. In 2003, a single parent working full time with two children would have a combined earnings and tax credit of $14,097, only 95% of the 2003 poverty threshold of $14,824 for a family of three. The proposal to raise the minimum wage to $7.25 fixes this problem. If the minimum wage were increased to $7.25 by 2007, the minimum wage and the EITC would work in tandem to raise this family's income to $17,790, which is 16% above the estimated 2005 poverty line of $15,317. It would still, however, be much lower than the income needed to support a family as calculated by "family budget" measures of poverty, which range from $23,000 to $46,000 for a family of three.

<snip>

[Jayhawk Lib]

11. State Issue

Because of the different economic climates of the different regions of the country the minimum wage should be set by the states. The cost of living in California and New York are a lot higher than say Arkansas.

I have heard that one reason for not letting the states decide what their minimum wage would be is because companies would leave the high cost of living states and move to the lower cost of living states.

This is hogwash. They could do that now but they do not. Also if that would happen it would sure help the economics of the state that they would move to.

I do not know about other regions but here in Kansas I do not think anyone pays just the federal minimum wage unless it would be some little mom and pop store. Even burger flippers get well over the federal minimum wage.

[justabob]

13. What about all the companies that moved south

to get around both the unions and the cost of living? It does happen.

[Jayhawk Lib]

14. Not aware

of many companies moving south, but if they did it would sure be a boom to the states that they moved to. That is what those states need to grow their economies.

[justabob]

18. Well

That's true, but the problem is that the workers don't enjoy the same compensation (even proportionally) or union protections in right-to-work states and I do take exception to all the workers further north who lose THEIR good paying jobs. I am really conflicted on all this because it does amke sense for there to be some kind of provision to the varying cost of living around the country, but as I said above, I don't like that people where the cost of living is higher, losing their jobs.

[Jayhawk Lib]

21. Workers responsibility

It is the Workers responsibility to unionize the company they work for. If they want more money more benefits,etc they are the ones that are going to have to get off of their duffs and do it. The company is not going to do it for them.

As for a right to work state, there again it is a local issue. If the majority in that state want to do away with the right to work status, they have to organize and elect the state reps. to get the job done.

[sandnsea]

43. They went south, then further south, then to China

The big move south happened in the 80's. Then a bunch moved to Mexico. And now a whole bunch more are moving to China from both the south and Mexico. If we'd have stopped the cheap labor conservatives back in the 80's, we wouldn't be where we are today. Which doesn't mean you stop trade around the world, it just means you don't let corporations do it by exploiting labor anywhere.

[BamaGirl]

47. Several 'foreign' car makers and their suppliers have moved to Bama

and they are a nice economic bump in their areas. We have several friends who work at one plant in the Montgomery area, and they love it. Paid and treated well, and these guys will be loyal to that company for life. It doesn't do much for the state's economy though, largely because we have minimal corporate taxes in Bama. I know of a couple of businesses that have moved into my area from other parts of the US, but it seems the states biggest new employers are from overseas (not counting retail, I mean decent employment). Kinda weird.

[Egalitariat]

56. Employing people w/ high wage jobs is what helps economies. Not taxes****

nm

[brook]

48. just what's needed...

a 'boom' in poverty wage jobs. :sarcasm:

You didn't factor in that business usually brings senior & junior staff along & that causes inflated costs of living . Just like moneyed 'retirement' areas and resorts quickly price the workers out of the community.

The only way for the average guy to make an actual living is to have a decent minimum wage nationally, a committment to afforable housing and affordable health care. It's about time this country realized that.

[tularetom]

19. It isn't the cost of "living"

It's the cost of "housing". In fact, the cost of groceries and other daily commodities is less in the major urban areas because of competition and lower transportation costs. I spent a month in OK in 2003 when my father passed away and I was amazed how expensive food was compare to here in CA.

[spooky3]

34. States CAN and do set higher minimum wages

So can cities. But many choose not to.

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

[mntleo2]

16. Interesting...

As an advocate for the poor, I can tell you that even the government is far behind as far as gaging the poverty level. They think a family of four can subsist on the minimum wage, when even a single person could not dream of it. But then they think it is easy for anyone to subsist on poverty wages while trying to survive.

I was recently in a place where a lot of city government people work. I was applying for energy assistance, since I work, but also have custody of my 5 month old grand niece and I am a single mom with two children of my own as well. I am disabled and had the baby with me, a diaper bag, and a back pack with the myriad of papers required. They told me when I set up the appointment, that if I was late, I was out of luck and I had to leave work to get the help, since of course they only work week days.

Their car lot was full of brand new shiny cars ~ more than the clients they were supposed to serve had. With little parking anywhere else, clients were supposed to park on the street sometimes toting children and babies for blocks. They even had one of their staffers in the parking lot guarding the spots while she sat in her shiny new van! There was a sign in one parking spot siting parking for an employee, but no other markings to indicate it was an employee lot. When I (finally) got into the building, with the stroller and all the stuff I had, there wasn't even an elevator and the offices were two flights up. I was able to carry everything up the stairs, but it was scary to bring it all back down ~ with the baby in the stroller. A nice man, another client, helped me get down or perhaps I would still be there, lol.

What is sad about all this is that low income mothers amd the disabled are nothing and do not count, even though we are often the backbone of communities working those jobs and helping our families and neighbors. We are all poor because we are drug addicts, period, that is the assumption. We should be working those crappy jobs so we can make other people rich, and when our own children act out after being in poverty, it is all our fault because we were required to be away at work in McJobs instead of being with them as we somehow "should" be in more than two places at once. Actually being a parent, bringing up the next generation, is "doing nothing" while working low wages for some rich white man is "doing something".

So park somewhere else, walk those stairs with your baby and stroller, and above all be grateful we even HAVE assistance for you, while Halliburton executives get billions more of your hard earned tax dollars than you ever dreamed possible and golden parachutes that would finance an entire community, and above all, work those McJobs or you do not do anything for your community!

Cat In Seattle

[sojourner]

27. I was just trying to think of ways to get gov't officials better informed

about this....... isn't there some way to get through?

The information (just look at this thread for example!) is accessible and easily available. Is it not possible to break through their blase attitudes and ignorance about "regular folks" to bring some sense of reality to them? I'm thinking a less emotional approach that deals with the "on-the-ground" reality. As an advocate I imagine you are involved in exactly this sort of effort. Suggestions - ideas?

[Mutley]

17. Using that same scale

minimum wage would need to be about $15/hour, and that's for cheap cars and houses.

[slaveplanet]

22. A lot of this has to do with

The federal Reserve and the detachment of the dollar from precious metals after Kennedy was assassinated and detached altogether under Nixon

People fail to realise just how much currency has devalued. Right now the printing presses are smoking at full capacity, plus you have to keep in mind that for every dollar that is actually printed, another 9 are born in the ether, in the form of digits.

There is no doubt as to what the end game is to all this fiat currency.

So while the cars have been increased in price. A lot of that has to do with the plethora of safety equipment, required emission items, and endless bells and whistles on even the stripped down models. All of it
a nightmare for maintenance, and likely a good business plan to keep people needing new ones when too much of it breaks at once.

The home increases are pretty clear as to whats happening there. People need safe hard investments, so even if you pay to much , at least it's something real and tangible. That's why you see people purchasing several homes after they were spooked by the stock market. This has squeezed the younger generations as the older ones try to diversify and protect their nest eggs.
Another factor is unchecked immigration, which is raising The internal population much quicker than traditional birth rates. The latter also helps keep the minimum wage nice and low. And finally, less jobs that pay a living wage ... the real culprit, and our #1 export.

[ThomWV]

25. Well. Look At Today's Middle Class

I know the phrase 'middle class' means everything and nothing but just for the sake of argument lets say a middle class family has two working adults, one part time, and two kids somewhere in the process of growing up. Let's let this little family drag home around $50K a year.

If they aren't living in San Francisco or New York they should be doing OK.

Fifty Grand comes out to right about $25 per hour (combined average salary for the couple):

10 x $25 = $250 per week rent (thousand bucks a month for a 3 or 4 bedroom place doesn't sound so bad)

100 x $25 = $25,000 and that will buy you a new SUV, very nice car, Van, or full sized pick up truck.

10,000 x 25 = $250,000 and in most suburbs in this country that would get you into a pretty nice, though certainly not the nicest, of homes.

So, tell me what the problem is?

[Warren Stupidity]

26. The problem is that is a 'middle class wage'. eom.

[ThomWV]

28. It Would Be Here - And This Is No Economic Hot Spot

Shit son, I'm in rural West Virginia and fifty grand is nothing at all unusual here. In fact twice that isn't any more uncommon that half that is.

Fifty grand isn't jack shit these days, and there are two working member familys all over this country that are bringing down that much.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

The OP was talking about his father earning 2.10 and hour, probably in the 60's when the minimum was somewhere around 1.80. That 2.10 was NOT a middle class wage, is was definately low end, but it was livable. Compare that to trying to live on $5.10, or even $10/hr, not your example of a $25 middle class wage. Your own example supposed a two income situation - I remember when most everyone's mom didn't have to work because one income was generally sufficient.

The only things that seem to be cheap these days are crap you don't need: dvds, tvs, gadgets; and clothes made by overseas wage slaves. Cars, energy, houses, healthcare, education - stuff you have to actually have - all that stuff is through the damn roof and getting more 'real dollar' expensive every day.

[sandnsea]

46. There's your problem

So many people are under the delusion that everybody is bringing in way more money than they are. $50,000 is median household income, I suspect it's lower in WV. It ain't shit, you got that right, so think how the 50% of families are living who don't make anywhere near that much. You need to get out of your upscale neighborhood and visit some of the poor kinfolk... son.

[slaveplanet]

31. You can't be serious

....having two people working means?- having two people working ... you just proved the case our wages have slipped by 50%

not to mention that a number of those two person earning juggernauts are now busy training their eventual replacements...

[SoCalDem]

33. Here's the problem...

In the OLD formula it was for ONE breadwinner. All the extra costs of having both Mom & Dad working 2 or 3 jobs are NOT even in the mix. Daycare..TWO cars (or train fare)..GASOLINE for 2 cars...Less time at home for Mom means that she has to take more expensive shortcuts like giving the kids lunch money instead of making their lunches and stopping for food on the way home..

Families have LOST buying power over the years... credit cards were the "easy answer", but that ride's over..

[ThomWV]

37. Ok, Get Rid Of The Second Income

OK, take the part timer I mentioned out of the equation. Let's let old dad have a general shit job and bring home a startling $35 grand a year. Once again using the rule of thumb that says the annual rate is 2000 times the hourly rate (based on a work year of 2,080 hours) that gives our now-poorer middle of the road family person at $17.50 per hour.

10 x 17.50 would do you $175 a week in rent. $700 a month would get you a perfectly acceptable rental in much of the country.

100 x $17.50 = $17,500: would get you a whole slew of medium sized cars brand new and just about any sort of vehicle you would want up to 3 years old.

10,000 x $17.50 would put you in a quite respectable $175 Thousand home anywhere you wanted to live within 20 miles of me right now (I'm within 12 miles of what may be West Virginia's 2nd or 3rd largest city).

You wouldn't have enough money left after any of these purchases to fart in a paper bag more than once a month but you could certainly live without going into unrepayable debt.

[SoCalDem]

38. $35K job for Pops probably won;t have much of a medical plan

if any.. Most families have some medical bills..and take home is not what you are paid hourly.. Kids like to have regular meals..and cars require gasoline :)

[Yavin4]

39. Your Math Is Wrong

100 x $17.5 = $1,750, not $17,500.

[Egalitariat]

54. He meant 1000, which is what the OP posited******

nm

[Yavin4]

40. Also, The OP Was Referring to Minimum Wage Jobs

A $35K annual salary IS NOT min. wage.

[phiddle]

42. Since you're trying a "realistic" scenario,

subtract 15.2% SS-Medicare taxes off of the top, and at least 20% income taxes and your 35K becomes roughly 24K, ($12 per hour), or rent of $120/week, car for $12,000, house for $120K? Then account for spiraling health, energy and food costs, the growing inadequacy of SS to fund a decent retirement(remember, we're spending those SS dollars on tax cuts for the wealthy), and also this "middle income" taxpayer's share of the national debt (which will be paid in some combination of higher taxes, reduced economic growth, lower wages, and reduced entitlements), and it's obvious that what a generation ago was a middle class life is out of range for your hypothetical "old dad".

[Egalitariat]

55. Did the OP's scenario include after tax dollars? Are you comparing

apples and apples?

[sandnsea]

45. Not anywhere in the west

Nowhere I've lived in the last 10 years has had housing priced in those ranges. I was paying $700 a month 8 years ago, it's at least $1000 a month now anywhere in the state of Oregon. I have only found a handful of places in the entire west that is any different, and usually it's higher. Most of the northeast is the same, and many places in the south as well. And $17.50 an hour jobs are nearly non-existent too. $12-$15 is the average wage around here. Wages just haven't kept up with the cost of living, and we haven't even talked about power or food or health care either.

[sandnsea]

44. $50,000 is the median household income

Meaning, 50% of US households don't fit your happy little scenario. Because a $10 hr job and a $7 hr job don't add up to $25 per hour. And neither does two $7 hour jobs, and most certainly not two $5 hour jobs.

Good lord, your numbers are the whole point. Back in the day, ONE earner supported a family in the manner your income scenario suggests.

Gads.

[PWRinNY]

50. I wish!

I WISH I could get a house around here for $250K! Can't even get a condo or a townhouse around here for that low a price.

[EstimatedProphet]

41. Thank you

I was just talking about this last night:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x63034

[Nikki Stone 1]

53. What is the equivalent of $2.10 in 2000 dollars?

For anyone who keeps track of it.

[Neil Lisst]

57. just compare the price of gasoline to the minimum wage

In the 1960s, you could buy about 8 gallons of gasoline for one hour's work at minimum wage. Now it's about 2.5 gallons for one hour's at minimum wage.

Every year the minimum wage gets lower. It's lower than most illegal aliens make.