There are conspiracy theories and then there are CONSPIRACY THEORIES

[LittleClarkie]

Ya know?

There's the "Hey, I connected the dots and something weird is going on" theories, and then there is the "I think that the hurricanes are happening on purpose because they help Bush" theories.

I'm sure the "hey, the candy coated terror alerts happen whenever Bush needs you to look away" started as a "conspiracy theory" but I think we all pretty much agree now that's what was happening. I think we've even gotten confirmation from a report or two, iirc.

There are theories based in facts with some speculative connecting of the dots, and there are theories that have an element of fantasy in them, and are almost entirely speculative.

The first is not tinfoilage. The second is.

I think we need a term to seperate "conspiracy theories" from "CONSPIRACY THEORIES" so that those who are doing fact base work aren't offended when someone comments on all the "conspiracy theories" flying about.

Some are good. Some are just alittle wacky. Ya know?

[leveymg]

1. But, what if there really are UFOs?

;-) :+ :think: :crazy: :tinfoilhat: :hi:

[marylanddem]

3. What a cute lineup of smilies! n/t

[zbdent]

4. There are UFOs

but not in the way that you mean.

By definition a UFO is, ta-da, an Unidentified Flying Object. If there are things that cannot be explained (wow, now I'm going to sound like a religious reichwingnut), then they are UNIDENTIFIED!!!!

However, there is no proof that the UFOs are alien spaceships. (If they were, the reichies would be claiming that the aliens have no souls, next in line in their arguments - or "had" no souls, if evidence of life ever appears on Mars . . . )

My opinion? If a rightie can believe that he or she can hit the lottery (at that astronomical odds), then in the uncounted numbers of stars in the universe (and the uncounted number of planets orbiting those uncounted stars), there is the possibility that life has occurred.

Ask a reichie about the possibility of life anywhere else in the universe, and you get the answer that it is statistically impossible, therefore it was God. Ask them about the lottery, and they'll tell you what they're going to do with their winnings after Friday's drawing . . . :silly:

[NV Whino]

2. I think you're right.

Maybe we need a wacky theory forum and the mods can dump the wackys there.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

5. Someone is creating cirrus clouds over my house..

..with their jets.

What are those clouds made out of? Anyone know yet?

Anyone know why are they making cirrus clouds nowadays?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=cirrus+clouds

Some say it is the new J-8 Jet Fuel.

Some say it is reflective aluminum and barium to reflective sun's heat to slow global warming.

Some say it is a plot by the govt to give us disease.

Some say is is moisture.

Whatever it is, I say it's new.

[patcox2]

14. Its Skorpio, its ground up diamond dust from his secret island, silly.

But Luke and Laura are on the way to stop him, we must all hope that they make it or the ice age will return and Skorpio will rule the world.

[donkeyotay]

6. As a card-carrying member of the Great Unwashed Looney Left

I'd like to say that the term "conspiracy theory" was first put into play to discredit citizen-investigators who did not buy the Warren Commission's explanation as to why the American President was assassinated. The term is a slogan and serves the purpose of keeping rational, professional, right-thinking respectable Americans from wasting precious time considering whether the questions raised have any merit. It gives the status quo a little giggle under which to hide any doubts they may have about knowing what they think they know.

So, without arguing the merits of any given "conspiracy theory," I think that any alternate term used in its place would be constructive. If people actually went to the trouble to say, "You know, I don't think citizens have enough access to information to be second-guessing our government." Or, "Our government has never lied to us or steered us wrong about anything else...", it would force them to at least find their own words for their thoughts, a healthy exercise. After all, the latest conspiracy theory was that the government was lying to us for war.

[Dr Fate]

11. I was called a conspiracy theorist when I insisted there were no WMDs.

Almost all of my relatives & co-workers called me that, and insisted that "I must not be watching the news."

[leveymg]

16. In fact, it was the WH that held onto a conspiracy theory about WMDs

Only they didn't really believe it, and took us to to war, anyway. What does that make them? Cynical and crazy?

Or, felons?

[Dr Fate]

17. Heh- that was my response to them- "YOU are the conspiracy theorist"

n/t

[leveymg]

27. Shame on them for believing someone who's as criminally stupid as *.

That's one response to people who now claim they were tricked.

And then there are those who believe that Iraq is a better place now than it was in 2003 -- we bestowed the blessings of democracy on the Iraqis -- so it was okay to tell a few fibs before we invaded.

I think there's a special place for such people.

[Cults4Bush]

41. I just posted this down thread, but I got called a liar for saying that

exact same thing yesterday on a thread where I asked for some courtesy between the two groups essentially. Most of the posts on the short lived thread didn't seem to take to what I was saying.

[applegrove]

7. I think conspiracy theory only comes into play when there is evidence

it is not true and the person continues to believe - despite experts, using faulty logic. As in 9/11 being planned by Bush, etc. When there is evidence or the possibility of evidence and nothing has been debunked - then it is a theory. So call it that.

What you describe as in "hey - look at this" - is simply a theory or speculation. So use that word. To clarify. Use IMHO (in my humble opinion) if you are guessing. Or "Could happen!"

Just be clear.

There is lots to find. Don't let yourself be bullied by the words. If what you are up to is not a conspiracy theory - then do not let it be called that. Neocons trying to take over the world -is out there in the public and not hidden - so never let anyone accuse you of being a conspiracy theorist on this. Neocons are out for undo influence and to take over the thinking of the world ... step by step... they write about it. They got kicked out of universities and all converged on Washington. This is well known. There is no "conspiracy theory" because there is nothing hidden. Yes they are working together to forge a movement of thinking and some take on the roll of bruiser and some do the thinking. But it is a movement with lots of evidence and quite out in the open.

So get to know exactly what a "conspiracy theory" is so that nobody, but nobody can use it as a weapon to shut you up.

The GOP will stop at nothing to shut their perceived enemies down and label them as crazy. Know you stuff. Be clear. And don't let anyone call you anything until you have investigated the exact meaning, done an assesment on the validity of being accused, and are ready to speak to it.

[William769]

8. There are also those that are just plain whacked in the head.

[bpilgrim]

9. it's a broad and popular brush with some to try and silence DU'ers

and popular with the M$M, too.

i think it is lame yet revealing whenever a DU'er uses this kinda rhetoric against their fellow DU'ers though it gives us a GREAT opportunity to discuss all the things that must not be :evilgrin:


more...
http://GlobalFreePress.com

peace

[Swamp Rat]

13. Yep!

:D And it gives me the PERFECT opportunity to post a pic! :D



:hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

19. i see lizards

everywhere

;->

sup Swamp Rat, another harsh look at the TRUTH :toast:

peace

[Dr Fate]

10. Then again, labeling everything as a "coincidence" is no good either.

Conspiracies exist when the government keeps secrets from the people...

They fill the informational void when information is kept from the public.

I think most "conspiracy theories" are healthy, even when they are wrong- b/c they highlight the fact that information is being kept from us...

[LittleClarkie]

12. But the ones within the realm of the possible aren't helped by the

"Dick Cheney has a weather machine and is producing hurricanes" ones.

I don't want to label everything a coincidence. I just don't want the good theories to be swept away with the weird ones, being broad brushed as loony.

I'd just like a terminology change somehow. "Conspiracy theory" has a negative connotation that several theories don't deserve.

[Dr Fate]

15. Which brings me to my conspiracy theory about conspiracy theories...

perhaps "The government" inserts "tin-foil hat" stuff into the dialog order to cloud or discredit theories that are actually on track?

WE ARE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, PEOPLE!!!!

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:mNewm3zkFEMJ:

[bpilgrim]

20. nail head

meet hammer head

peace

[bpilgrim]

22. just stick to the facts, ask for links, & don't generalize to divide

du is very good at getting to the nitty gritty & what makes this site the best on the INTERNETs :bounce:

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[LittleClarkie]

26. I hope you don't think that's what I was trying to do with this thread

Generalizing to divide, that is.

I was trying for unity in a way actually. Hoping to help those who rail against CT's and those who are offended by such railing against CT's to see that we may not be talking about the same stuff, and that calling every speculative theory a CT is doing a disservice.

[bpilgrim]

35. no, not at all...

i am just point to what i think is the most effective way of dealing with this kinda thing.

CT be bandied about by a few bashers, especially in the broad brush way they use it is very realing in and of it's self.

:hi:

peace

[RandomKoolzip]

18. I've posted threads about this before.

As far as CTs go, we definitely need to separate the wheat from the chaff.

BAD conspiracy theories:

Chemtrails
Weather control
Statues that drink milk
Mind control
Bush killed the miners
Bush created the tsunami
Mentally ill people on planes are being systematically killed
Sex rings in the white house
UFOs
Anything supernatural
Explosives in the WTC
Anything Icke-realted (lizardmen, etc.)
Clinton killed a bunch of people


GOOD conspiracy theories:

JFK assassination
RFK assassination
MLK assassination
Wellstone's suspicious death
9/11 anomalies
Clinton was a target of a RW conspiracy


ANyone else feel like ading to either list?

[Dr Fate]

21. I think the sex ring theory one is "good", per my explanation in post #10

It may not be 100% true- but it is a "good" theory in light of the secrecy & silence concerning Male Prostitute, Jeff Gannon's hundreds of visits to the WH (100% factual events)

In cases like this, where the govt. is silent about a fact, citizens are free to speculate.

[LittleClarkie]

25. And as John Dean said, if this WH *stonewalls*

there IS something going on. You can almost count on it.

[Al-CIAda]

31. Yorkshire Television & The Discovery Channel : Conspiracy of Silence

Yorkshire Television & The Discovery Channel – Conspiracy of Silence
US government child sex abuse, drugs and yet another cover-up

stream
real player
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence56k.ram
download
real player
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence56k.rm
stream/download
windows media player
http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/conspiracyofsilence2.wmv

[LittleClarkie]

24. I would add

bad:
Skull and Bones if that's all ya got
Clinton drug running

and I would add that any theory about Wellstone's suspicious death that includes beaming microwaves at the plane or something would be out, while keeping the idea that Wellstone's death was indeed suspicious.

Good theories
Rightwing bias in the media (esp. that several people in the media get their talking points from the GOP)
the plans over at the PNAC

[Dr Fate]

28. Masonic or S&B nonsense theories is a result of their SECRECY.

My father is a 33 Degree Mason and I can assure you that he is no devil worshipper! Founding DUer, Kephra was a Mason too.

BUT- since "Secret" Societies do keep some of their rituals, etc secret, it breeds speculation...

So long as a government or organization is completely open, there are no arguably viable conspiracy theories...So long as there are "secrets" being kept, it is arguably okay to theorize.

I'm not saying I disagree with you- I do agree- I'm just saying that as long as there are secrets or gaps in the info, it is arguably okay to theorize in order to "fill in the blanks."

[RandomKoolzip]

29. Good points.

Skull and Bones is an odd subject, and one that merits further research, but they're not to blame for every goddamn thing that goes wrong in America.

[Dr Fate]

30. No, that would be the (Shudder) SHRINERS!!!

Soon they will force us all to wear funny hats and starchy shirts while driving tiny little cars.

WE ARE THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS, PEOPLE!!!

[RandomKoolzip]

32. Don't get hit when they fire their candy guns at you!

Everybody knows they're not candy guns anyways...they're HAARP WEAPONS!!!!

[Swamp Rat]

34. There are UFOs!

:D

You know, flying things we cannot identify, like alien lizard intergalactic cruisers! THEY may actually exist! (despite what that LIZARD MAN Icke says) :D

"Anything supernatural" cannot be debunked either way as it is belief, but at least it's fun to contemplate. ;)

"Explosives in the WTC" is worthy of the "GOOD conspiracy theories" column as part of the "9/11 anomalies."

[RandomKoolzip]

37. MY father and brother saw a UFO once.

I believe there are things in the sky we can't identify, but there are no aliens from space and they are certainly not abducting humans. That, I'm pretty sure of. I don't know what my dad and brother saw, but I'm sure as shit it wasn't no UFO.

I think the planting of explosives in the WTC can be dismissed due to the effort involved in putting the damn things into the building and the secrecy and time you'd need to acheive such a project. I believe in LIHOP (bordering on MIHOP), but to claim there were explosives planted in the WTC tries my already stretched bullshit-o-meter.

'Anything supernatural" as pertains to the political terrain in the USA is what I should have said.

[Swamp Rat]

39. Wasn't Marvin Bush head of WTC security for a month before the attack?

In my entire life, I have never seen a building collapse on it's own footprint, let alone 3 in one day, that was not caused by strategically placed explosives. I think it is a legitimate subject for a conspiracy theory, and I am open to all arguments because I do not know one way or the other. My gut tells me those buildings were demolished on purpose... just like my gut tells me they assassinated Wellstone to take the Senate. Hell, other troublesome senators were sent anthrax right? ... like my gut tells me Bushler&Co let us drown here in New Orleans on purpose so they could suspend posse comitatus to get rid of the bluest city in the Deep South and take control of the port... if my gut is lying to me, then my senses my be lying too, and this is not a moldy wooden floor I am sleeping on.

[meisje]

23. So a UFO didn't hit the Pentagon?

[leveymg]

33. Ask these guys. One of them should know

about this:

[Time for change]

36. That's true, but the quality of most of the ones that I've seen on DU

are pretty damn good IMO.

[patcox2]

38. We have a distinction: conspiracy theory vs. tinfoil hat theory

Thats what a "tinfoil hat" theory is, an unsupported, purely speculative conspiracy theory, usually presented in a breathless style, (come on, people, don't you see it?) and with a "conspiratorial" use of the first person plural, as in "we see it, we have to do something."

[Cults4Bush]

40. I tried to say the exact same thing yesterday and got called a liar,

and was told that Consiracy Theorists bring nothing to DU.

Nice to see some are still being level headed about this.