TX students kicked out of class over Confederate flag purses

[rainbow4321]

<poll at the link>
Is the Burleson school district correct in banning the Confederate flag purses?
Yes
42.44% 612 votes
No
57.56% 830 votes


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/010706dnmetrebelpurse.4f64053b.html

Two North Texas high school students who were kicked out of class for displaying rebel flags vow to take their fight to court. They said they are proud of their heritage, but Burleson High School education officials maintain the Confederate symbol is offensive.

<snip>
"Principal comes up and says, 'You've got to get rid of your purse... it's racist,'" Thomas said.

Burleson ISD spokesman Richard Crummel said it's simply a matter of violating the school's dress code. "We don't want students to wear anything that might cause a disruption, and that symbol has done that in the past," Crummel said.

<snip>
"I'm hiring a lawyer," Thomas said. "I'm going all the way with it, because I think it's wrong."

[Beelzebud]

1. Their "heritage" is racism and treason.

Sure they have their constitutional rights. Let them carry that flag wherever they want.

Normal people see it for what it is: racism and treason.

[FreedomAngel82]

114. Yep

I thought they were American flagging people? *gasps* The Liberals had that flag eh?

[loveable liberal]

2. freedom of expression, even in poor taste, needs to be defended....

aside from the lousy fashion statement it makes, the bags are their expression of who they are. Personally, I'd rather know who's a bigot an who's not. They shouldnt be ashamed to hide their stupid.

[yellowcanine]

14. I am not so sure. Would a t-shirt with a picture of a lynching on it be

ok? Because believe me, to many African Americans, the stars and bars represent the same thing. It is not a heritage thing any more than a swastika is a German heritage thing. The stars and bars, for better or for worse, have become a symbol of racial oppression.

[Charlie Brown]

20. Students have a right to wear swastikas, kkk shirts, or anything els

I might draw the line at an Al Quaeda tee-shirt, or Osama bin Laden shirt, since we are "at war" with these elements, and it would be a liability for the school to be associated with those kind of sentiments.

Lynching shirts would be a blatant promotion of violence, and thus not covered by the 'first. Symbols like the stars and bars are a part of history, particiluarly in the South, regardless of the meaning many people attatch to it. Students have as much right to display it on clothing, accessories, as anything else.

I wish people would realize their own free speech depends on extending that same right to others.

[yellowcanine]

29. The stars and bars are a blatant promotion of violence against blacks.

Just as the swastika is a blatant promotion of violence against Jews.
Now, both the swastika and the stars and bars have other meanings, I will grant you that. However there can be little doubt that the stars and bars were used in the last century to promote violent repression of African Americans in the U.S. Therefore a school has a right to ban the stars and bars as well as swastikas. Both are guarenteed to distract students from the purpose of school. Therefore the schools have the right to ban them. The courts have upheld this principle before and they will again. Schools are allowed to have reasonable dress codes to enhance the educational opportunities of all students. The girls can carry their confederate purses when they are walking around the neighborhood or at the mall. But they don't have the right to take them to school.

[Charlie Brown]

37. Sorry, I disagree with the courts

The "promoition of violence" rhetoric could be used against any symbol, as could the "distraction from schoolwork." France instituted a ban on headscarves for those very reasons, and I won't have that kind of thinking applied in this country.

People who are offended upon seeing the stars and bars or swastika at school can wear there own counter-slogan or symbol on their own shirts.

These two girls have a right to display the stars and bars on their accessories without the school's interference.

[bpj1962]

75. First Amendment Rights

Although I agree with you concerning the right to free speech I find it kind of odd that we proclaim to be protecting our "Southern Heritage", when in fact the Civil War lasted only 4 years and the south lost. I live in Virginia which not only had the most civil war battles but was also home to the Confederate capitol and our state flag does not and never has had any reference to the confederate stars and bars. If I am correct both the german and japanese constitutions forbid the flying of the Swastika and rising sun flag. I have never understood why the federal government did not ban the flying of the stars and bars. They south seceded and subsequently lost. It is the flag of insurrection and it is a symbol and a reminder of slavery. States rights were about two things, slavery and tariffs on cotton, no more no less and any southerner who tells you that it wasn't has never read a history book. Sorry for the ramble I just go crazy when I hear someone spouting off about Southern Heritage and States Rights.

[Charlie Brown]

96. I am no defender of "southern heritage"

I despise everything the confederacy stood for (not just slavery, but the treason, prison camps, thuggery by the Home Guard, and forceful quelching of all dissent). Nonetheless, the battle flag was a part of history, and has had a peculiar meaning in the South since that time. There are many groups who display it as an expression of heritage and honor, and their feelings are sincere. Thus, it is covered by the 'first.

I don't agree in principal w/the outlawing of the swastika in Europe or banning the rising sun in Japan, but it's their country(ies). They arrested some poor sucker in Austria for simply denying the Holocaust, which I think is monstrous.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4446646.stm

flying the stars and bars over gov't buildings probably is technically illegal, as it could be construed as treason. As far as personal display goes though, there's that pesky 1st Amendment, and if we want it to continue to have any meaning, it must be applied impartially to all.

[Realityhack]

92. Which would inevitably lead...

to a disruption of studies.

IIRC the supreme court when reviewing that famous vietnam era case of the black arm bands said they school could not ban them because they were not a disruption.

In this particular case I am not sure wither the school has grounds or not. It may depend greatly on other factors such as wither anyone complained or wither there were other cercumstances that put the purses in context.

However it is compltelely clear that schools can ban certain clothing or other expresions within them. Students in school to NOT have full rights to free speach inside the school. This has been upheld repeatedly.

A school could for example bar someone from whereing a bikini to school (even if they claimed religious reasons) because it is distracting to studies. A shirt with a lynching on it is even more offensive and it is easy to see how this could be banded. In fact if I understand it correctly that would be litteraly illigal to where to work as well (hostile work environment).
As I said the stars and bars legality may well depend on soruounding factors which could in context make it clear that it either was or was not a significant distraction.

[Charlie Brown]

98. Then if schools decide to ban other symbols, you have no problem

http://www.holysmoke.org/wicca/roanoak.htm

Henkel and Mitchell said they denied putting up the posters or that they are Wiccans. But Henkel questioned why the Wicca posters should be removed when posters advertising a Christian missionary's sermon at a local church earlier in the year had been allowed to remain up for weeks.

Henkel contends that when he asked Brown if Christians had more rights to post such materials than non-Christians, the answer was yes, because Christian posters were unlikely to cause disruption in school. But, Brown reportedly told them the Christian posters were placed without his permission and also violated school policy.

[Realityhack]

149. Obviously the should be even handed....

The above is a clear case of bias for one religion over another.

But the courts are quite clear that the school can ban things that disrupt the classroom or the educational process. If a particular item wither it be a cell phone, racist parapahnilia, sexualy suggestive or whatever disrupts that process then yes it is OK to ban it within the school context.

I think I was quite clear in stating that each case needs to be taken on its individual merits. And that I do not know enought about the events surounding this particular case to feel qualified to make a judgement on it. However I can see some cercumstances inwhich it would be perfectly reasonable to bar the confederate flag. So much depends upon the context.

If you would like to continue to discuss this in more detail lets try to first find some common ground.

Do you beleive that a purse with a picture of a lynching on it would be ok? (not accusing you just want to see where our common ground is if we are to continue the discussion).

[Charlie Brown]

151. Is a picture of lynching a historical symbol?

Anyone seeing exclusively lynchings and violence in the CBF is attaching his own viewpoints to it, and it's no different than an evangelical claiming offence at a rainbow flag or a Wicca symbol (yeah, I know, it's not the same, yadda yadda, but to the evangelical, it would be a highly offensive).

The schools should not be in the business of outlawing symbols like the CBF with a broad range of meanings to different people. Authoritarian stuff like that is the exact reason why many mainstream voters are turned off by the left.

There are all sorts of organizations who see the CBF as a symbol of heritage, including the famlies of these girls. Do deny them the opportunity to PERSONALLY EXPRESS that is unconstitutional and unethical. Schools can guarantee a safe learning environment without bringing social agendas into the classroom (in this case, outlawing the stars and bars), inspite of these girls not being gang members, and no evidence of avowed racism.

If this had been a pride flag or a peace symbol, all the "safe environment" people here would be waving the First Amendment and shouting freedom. It greatly disparages me that progressives don't have the same respect for other people's rights.

[Yupster]

128. I think I agree with you Reality hack

As a former teacher, I think schools should have a right to ban clothing that causes distractions or conflict in the classroom. I think the courts could be used to make sure it is done in an even-handed manner though.

[Yupster]

127. Not to be technical, but

the flag on the girl's purse is not the Stars and Bars.

It's the starry Cross or the Southern Cross.

The Stars and Bars was the first National flag and looked like the US flag but it only had three stripes and fewer stars in the field.

[Kingshakabobo]

136. So you would be OK turning schools in to a propaganda battleground?

"People who are offended upon seeing the stars and bars or swastika at school can wear there own counter-slogan or symbol on their own shirts."



Schools have an obligation to keep controversial shit like this out of the classroom. Otherwise, schools WILL turn in to propaganda battlegrounds.

[Charlie Brown]

152. Is the CBF controviersial to these girls?

How are these girls launching a "propaganda war" by brining symbols they view as heritage to school? Are you telling them diffently? How can you force their family to agree with your prognosis of the CBF?

You are seeing many things in these girls which I simply doubt is actually there.

What if another symbol was singled out as unacceptable in public schools?

If a peace symbol is considered "controversial" in red states what precedent would prevent it from being outlawed in school.?

[Kingshakabobo]

154. Propaganda war was YOUR idea with the suggestion that....

other kids are free to counter the message with their own insignias.

So what should the black kids wear to counter this? "All red-necks are inbred"

Maybe the kids of English heritage could chime in: "Irish people are terrorists"

I suppose the Arab kids could wear shirts: "Filthy Jews are murderers"

I suppose the Jewish kids could counter with a similar message.

Hey, after all, that's why the kids are in school; to exercise their free speech. :sarcasm:

[Charlie Brown]

155. The symbols on these girls purses say that?

I thought it was a confederate battle flag. When did these girls start calling minorities names and using racial slurs?

Is that what you see as their agenda?

[Kingshakabobo]

161. That's not the point. It's about free speech. ....

You say the students shouldn't be banned from exercising any free speech they desire.

Or are you? If so, who gets to make the rules? Perhaps we can appoint some administrator or board to make the rules. Oh wait, we already did that!!!!!!!!!

And yes, I DO see the confederate flag as being that offensive and so do a lot of other people.

I find it very funny, from what I have read, that this particular flag became very popular again during the school integration and civil rights battles taking place in the south in the '60s.

[Castilleja]

62. Wisely put

I particularly think people should take note of your last sentence, as it is the crux of the whole matter.

[K-W]

66. Since students are compelled to be in schools, it isnt quite so simple.

In a normal public space others can choose not to be exposed to your speach, students can not choose to not be exposed to other students in a school. This has to be taken into account.

[Charlie Brown]

68. So when conservatives complain about peace symbols, pride flags, etc.

They will be the next to go, as various groups claim they are offensive. If free speech does not cover everyone (in public school or elsewhere), it is not free speech.

[Warren DeMontague]

70. As a philosophical principle, I agree with you

but I don't think you're going to get dress codes and limitations on free expression thrown out of the nations' schools in their entireity. Therefore, I think it's as legitimate to ban these purses as it is to ban anything else.

[msongs]

78. peace symbols and glbt flags do not represent murder of millions of

africans by christian white people. that is the offense.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/clark2008.htm

[K-W]

79. Of course not.

Since peace symbols and pride flags are not racist.

[Yupster]

129. You make a good point too Charlie

free speech is not to protect stuff we all agree with. That doesn't need protection. Free speech is to protect things that most people disagree with.

This is a difficult issue.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Actually, that's not true. The Supreme Court has continually stated

that kids in schools are NOT entitled to the same civil liberties and protections under the bill of rights as adults are, particularly where issues such as free expression are concerned. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.

[Realityhack]

94. Very well put. But...

how dare you confuse us with the FACTS!

[KittyWampus]

85. I Wish People'd Realize Kids In Public School Are A Different Matter

the school has every right to bar kids from wearing clothing considered disruptive to a harmonious educational atmosphere.

Confederate flag or Fuck Bush t-shirts, both are inappropriate for public school.

But then, I support having a basic dress code in public schools (like khakis).

[alarimer]

103. But the problem is in defining what is disruptive

It is so broad that it could include anything. We would be pissed off if they made some kid wearing a peace sign t-shirt face the same punishment. I think this is ridiculous.

Of course I do not support most dress codes in schools.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

118. Free Speech rights don't apply in schools.

That's why the school can nix articles in the school paper. Also why they can have dress codes (including uniforms), ban hairstyles and facial hair, etc.

[LostinVA]

132. You can't wear what you want to work, even if you're a civil servant

Same thing here. It's disruptive, and interferes with the rights of people who HAVE to be there.

[bee]

52. as an aside....

The National Great Blacks In Wax Museum sells a lynching t-shirt.


Great Blacks In Wax Lynching T-Shirt
This Jerry Breen design is a powerful reminder to African Americans of our past and present barriers. A Black heavyweight 100% Cotton T-Shirt frames the Golden Maize print. Sizes Small – 3XL.
Price: $17.99

interesting eh?

site link: http://www.gbiwstore.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GBIWLYNCHT

[rainbow4321]

24. One teacher gave my daughter a veiled threat about her T shirt

There is a band called "Bad Religion" that my daughter and her friends follow...daughter has one of their tshirts w/ their symbol on it..a cross that is covered with one of those "circles w/ a line thru it" and it says Bad Religion above it.

She has worn it to school and her history teacher told her maybe she had better (paraphrased) pick her battles carefully and really think about wearing the shirt, telling her to think if the possible consequences of wearing the shirt would be worth it. I told her to ask him when they would be covering Constitutional amendments in class, and that, YES, any problems she would face would be well worth having if it meant defending some of those amendments.

The looks she gets from wearing the shirt are pretty funny when we go out and about in our TX neon red county.

[madmom]

48. I love this story...my daughter told me one about a kid who was told

to change his THC t-shirt, promotes drugs. But he ordered the shirt from (T)he (H)istory (C)hannel.:rofl:

[Toots]

77. Not in school. How about gang colors or girls wearing bikinis?

School can have dress codes and that is established law...

[KittyWampus]

86. Thanks, this is common sense.

[Hosnon]

146. Exactly. Where's that quote about the measure of a person's dedication to

free speech being determined by championing the right of another to say things which he finds offensive.

[Charlie Brown]

3. school was wrong to punish the students

free speech. end of story.

[northzax]

9. free speech does not exist in the classroom

it has been held again and again. Schools have a vested interest in creating a non-hostile learning environment for all students. If the dress code bans the confederate battle flag, then so be it.

[Charlie Brown]

13. It most certainly does

according to the ACLU and most civil libertarians.

That same logic has been used to demand Muslims remove their headscarves and that Wiccans cannot advertise their faith at schools ("hostile" to Christians, etc.)

Part of the purpose of the public school system is to give students an idea of what they can expect as adults. Individuals with different outlooks and and creeds is a part of that experience. Students who find the confederate battle flag hostile should recognize that their own free speech depends on others having that same right.

[northzax]

54. it's also the reason you can't wear a t shirt that says: (and I apologize)

"Kill all Niggers" you can't read Playboy in Study Hall. you can't wear pants that show your underwear. or wear a "Jews killed Jesus" sweatshirt. All are things that I, as an adult, can do in public, If I'm actually dumb enough to do so. Are you saying that you would not support the right of a school to ban any of those activities (assume the student is 18, and can legally own a Playboy)

[Charlie Brown]

61. The shirt you describe would be a blatant promotion of violence

not covered by the 'first, just like cross-burning is not covered by the 'first. If you wore that shirt, the principal would be justified in sending you home. And the porno would most certainly be a distraction from school-work.

The confederate battle flag is a historical symbol that means different things to different people. The girls' families probably view it as a symbol of heritage and family pride, just like many people view rainbow flags and wiccan symbols.

As such, the girls have a constituional right to display the symbol and should not be singled out because the principal has different feelings about the stars and bars. That is America.

[northzax]

83. then I have the same right to display a swastika

tradition and pride, you know. I'm sorry if it makes Jews and Homosexuals in the class, well, intimidated and uncomfortable, but it represents my strong Germanic Heritage. Right?

The Confederate Battle Flag is on par with the swastika as a hate symbol. Both took up arms against the United States, both led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of American servicemen and women.

the Battle Flag has been used a symbol of hate and oppression for the past 140 years, no matter what it once meant. To me, it is the symbol of people who took up arms against the United States in defense of the right to own human beings. Since then, it has been used as a symbol of overt, state sponsored racism. Talk about all the pride and heritage you want, but black students should not be forced to the flag that flew at lynchings and cross burnings in a mandatory setting. One reason schools are different is that they are mandatory, students cannot elect not to go to class, whereas adults can avoid exposure to offensive speech.

Ask someone who had a family member lynched if the Battle Flag is an incitement of violence.

[LostinVA]

134. And, you can do that in public but not at work, right?

And it's the same reason kids can't. Even if you work for a public entity. It's the same thing. Provocative free speech is definitely not allowed in some public settings, for good reason.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. Right. Try seeing if a kid could wear a t-shirt with a pot leaf

into a DARE class.

Not gonna happen. Free speech most emphatically does NOT exist for students in high school, not to the extent that it does vis a vis adults in larger society. The SCOTUS has held that repeatedly.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. If free speech doesn't apply to adults on Southwest Airlines

http://www.ioerror.us/2005/10/06/meet-the-fuckers-not-on-southwest-airlines/

I think you'll be hard pressed to win the case that students in high school can wear anything they want under any circumstances.

[Charlie Brown]

90. I believe SW Airlines is a private establishment n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

119. You're right. But kids in public schools don't have absolute first amend.

rights, either. As has been mentioned in this thread repeatedly.

[Charlie Brown]

123. Great. When do they take away the pride flags and head scarves?

Since the same justification will inevitably be used to scrap those symbols as well. I can't wait to see the public school system turned into giant conformity factories, where the largest interest groups in the area (in Texas, the Christian Right) get to decide what constitutes free speech.

[Warren DeMontague]

125. I can see I'm talking right past you.

'Cuz I guess you think if you just mention pride flags or head scarves, I'm going to freak out and change my mind. But it's not MY mind that is making this call, dude- it's the Supreme Court, which has said repeatedly that kids in school are NOT entitled to the same level of constitutional protections that ordinary, everyday, adult citizens in larger society are. (You think there's anything even VAGUELY resembling the fourth amendment for a kid in high school? Fucking hardly... Not that there's much of it left for the rest of us, either.)

So.... Do I need to say it again?

Whether you're talking about a kid who doesn't want to conform to a school's dress code (personally, I'm opposed to both dress codes AND 'conformity factories', but my opinions on a lot of things aren't terribly popular in this country these days), or a kid with a pride flag AND a head scarf, or a kid with a confederate flag purse, or a kid who tries to wear a pro-pot legalization shirt into a D.A.R.E. class, or WHATEVER- First Amendment protections are not absolute- when you're talking about kids in public schools.

[WeRQ4U]

35. That's not true at all.

There is a system of constitutional scrutiny that comes along with "Classroom Expression" just as their is with almost all other types of expression. En Loco Parentis is not absolute.

It's been a while since I've looked at this stuff, but I think the inquiry begins with whether or not the speech at issue is "communicative" or "non-communicative". If it's "non-communicative", then the school's decision to ban certain speen will be deferred to so long as they can show a "rational basis" for doing so. Now, if the speech is considered "communicative" by the Court, then there will be a much higher standard of scrutiny. The school will have to show a "reasonable expectation" that the speech will produce a material disruption of some kind. This is where other courts have upheld banning of this same flag due to the disruption that it is likely to cause or has already caused. See Melton v. Young, 465 F.2d 1332 (C.A.6 1972)(student's suspension was not violative of his First and Fourteenth Amendment rights, where there was substantial disorder at high school throughout school year, this disorder most materially disrupted functioning of school, so much so that school was in fact closed upon two occasions, much of controversy during previous year had centered around use of Confederate flag as school symbol, and school officials had every right to anticipate that a tense racial situation continued to exist.)

There are also some exceptions to the rule here. One, a school may ban speech or expression that it believes paints the school in an unfavorable light. FOr example, a school may require people representing the school at a function to dress well and represent the school in a favorable manner. Two, a school may curtail speech that it finds lude, lacivious or obscene. (Old man judges making those decisions still frighten me). This is usually where en loco parentis comes into play.

You may or may not agree with the ruling, but it is a ruling. And, being an attorney, I have a hard time not giving the rule of law at least SOME deference.

[northzax]

56. thanks for the cite. I would say this is 'non-communicative' speech

since it is passive. and I would posit that the Confederate Battle Flag has been turned into a symbol of hate, I would think the rights of the black student not to be presented with symbols of oppression, in a mandatory setting, outweighs the non-communicative speech rights of the student.

that's how I read it, at least.

[Silverhair]

139. Please translate some of the lawyer-speak.

What is "communcative" vs "non-communicative" speech?

[Dunvegan]

10. Agreed...free speech is always the way to go.

Only legal snarl is that often schools who have in loco parentis responsibilities over minors create dress codes.

Some are modesty oriented, and some have to do with keeping the peace...like schools that allow no gang color dressing.

This should be interesting. If they can carry their purses...then gang members can wear colors.

[quaoar]

4. The school is wrong

Freedom of speech means tolerating symbols and language you might find offensive. Unless the school can demonstrate that the battle flag is inciting violence or disrupting the school, I don't see how they get away with this.

[Dora]

5. Principal overreacted.

That said, I'll also say that the parents of those girls gave those purses because they were itchin' for a fight.

[Charlie Brown]

6. Maybe they bought the purses with their own money

Regardless, it's their right.

[Dora]

44. The article says the purses were given as gifts for Christmas.

The father of one of the girls is a member of Sons of the Confederacy (or something like that).

Read the article.

[Charlie Brown]

47. It's still their right

Most SOCs I have met are idiots, but they have a right to promote their idiocy, as do their children.

[Yupster]

130. I was friends with the regional leader of the SCV organization

who tragically was killed recently in a car wreck visiting his grandchildren.

Anyway, this man was well-educated, an amateur writer and historian, absolutely not a racist, and was involved in politics where he was one of the leaders of the local moderate Republicans who spent their time and efforts fighting the religious right from taking over the republican Party.

His biggest gripe was that the group's flag was being used by racists and every time he heard of a Klan rally in this region, he organized his group of SCV's to protest them.

Sorry you've only met idiots. I only know two and they are both decent well-educated and well-meaning people.

[misanthrope]

145. Really? Because the SCV here...

...is a demi-Kleagle. The "fine SCV folks" in Mobile, Alabama have engaged in a protest taking up for a vendor who was booted from the local mall for selling t-shirts with pictures of slaves picking cotton and the slogan "Old times here are not forgotten" emblazoned beneath.

They also bought a lot in a black neighborhood in order to erect a 50-foot flagpole and fly, you guessed it, the confederate battle flag.

They published the mayor's address and incited people to harass him on his property.

They also have documented ties to neo-Nazi and Klan groups.

They fought against a measure to remove a portion of the state constitution that made interracial marriage illegal. The measure barely passed just a couple of years ago.

They also lent support to a recent effort to have racist language that stipulated segregated schools removed from the state constitution. That attempt failed.

Rednecks and their "heritage"...

[tjwash]

7. Have to side with the constitution on this one...

...no matter how tasteless something is, we have the right to say and express it if we wish to. The school was wrong.

[booksenkatz]

8. My parents live in Burleson

My dad was the only person in Burleson with 2 Kerry stickers on his car and a succession of Kerry signs in the yard of his corner house on a busy street (stolen constantly). One of the reddest areas in the state of Texas. So color me surprised that the principal would even do this, Christ, that's a huge step forward. But Texas crackers going to the wall, willing to die on the hill, for their racist purses? Doesn't surprise me in the least.

[Loonman]

11. Why'd anyone want to display the flag of a traitorous cause?

The south lost, get over it.

[NYC Liberal]

15. Not to mention a racist one.

Some people are still trying to fight the Civil War 140-odd years later...cripes.

That said, let them wear what they want so long as they're not disturbing anyone. At least we'll know exactly what they support.

[Loonman]

16. Not me, but it offends a lot of people

When I see a rebel battle flag, I automatically drop 50 points from that person's IQ.

[NYC Liberal]

18. Know what's funny? The people who fly that flag of treason

are the ones who always talk about how "PATRIOTIC" they are. Hah!

[Loonman]

21. Wow

They're in deep.

HELLOOOOO!

[ecstatic]

69. I agree completely. see it all the time in Georgia nt

[txindy]

23. The Civil War's known here as "The War of Yankee Aggression"

So not kidding, unfortunately. It's not taught that way in schools, though. At least, not in the schools my kids have attended.

[Hosnon]

144. Not exactly accurate..."War Between the States" is most commonly used.

And "Civil War" is extremely inaccurate as a term to describe the conflict as a civil war is a war within ONE country and our "Civil War" was between TWO countries.

[txindy]

159. Then you'd better come on down to Texas

Because there's a statue on the grounds of the Capitol that pays tribute to the proud Texans killed in "The War of Yankee Aggression." It's different where you are, apparently, but that's the phrasing here. We also have "Confederate Heroes Day" as a holiday of sorts on January 19th. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Memorial_Day And, no, the schools aren't closed.

Nobody calls it the "War Between the States" here except in history books.

[Hosnon]

147. Well obviously because that person does not see it in that way. nt

[Dunvegan]

12. Well then...do schools also have the right, acting...

in their role as "in loco parentis" to (via dress codes) ban gang colors?

Dress codes have been invoked a great deal over the years for everything from modesty to a uniform dress code.

Since we're talking minors and schools and in loco parentis, is that the same as adult free speech?

If the purses are okay...then all other dress codes nation-wide fall also as they would be intefering with "expression."

Schools presently often ban, via dress code, the wearing of gang colors in urban areas.

A win for the Stars and Bars could be a win Crips and Bloods, also.

Personally, I think the school should have let it go...but, this should prove an interesting case.

[Blue_Tires]

30. good points

we'll see what happens

[Swamp Rat]

17. Let them keep their purses if they are willing to give a convincing oral

presentation to African American students why the "rebel flag" is not racist nor offensive.

It could be a learning experience for all! :D

[sweetheart]

19. good, ban those flags, its long overdue

If we're gonna be PC with symbols, that one is right there with the nazi flag.
Display it all you want in your home, but remove it from public view.

[Charlie Brown]

22. and remove pride flags, wicca symbols, "liberal" slogans, etc.

I don't want to go down that road.

[Cults4Bush]

25. I love sweethearts posts but I ahve to agree with you a most slippery

slope to bumble down.

Besides if they want be proud of their racism go ahead. Just dont freak out when some new panther movement forms to combat it, is what I'd tell the kids. If I was black an dwent to that school, there'd be some serious fist raising going on, martial arts activities, black heritage meetings. Anything to counteract it... but censor it? No way... besides they only use that to play victim and garner sympathy and support.

Let them fly their white racist asses out in the open, I say. All the better to recognize an enemy.

[sweetheart]

33. The issue is contextual

Racism is very bad in texas, especially east texas where
the state university system is mostly still segregated, where
blacks are much more likely to be incarcerated for crimes than
whites and a whole lot more ... like a state that executes
blacks demographically more than any other race.

It is suspicious, when racism is that bad... then a symbol of
racism that means nothing in new york, means that after dark, the
black guy standing over there, better be gone, or he'll get the shit
kicked out of him. That flag is 2 inches in front of the violence
that it symbolizes. The people who fly it fly it for the slavery
and they are not yankees in new york with a historical memento on
their wall. They are confederates who wish their CSA back along
with all its accoutrements.

Likewise, the nazi flag is banned on the continent where it has too
much meaning for the living, where it means a death threat to
some people... a form of terrorism.

It took me years in texas to come to this view. Had i not, i might
think of this more like you do... had i not myself seen this close
up, felt the fear of a black friend being at a pickup drinking
college party where that flag was held up, and, smelling the fear,
had to leave with my black friend (who insisted) so that she felt safe.

[Charlie Brown]

41. I'm sure the folks in this community would love to ban pride flags

and you're giving them the perfect ammo.

The two girls were in the right.

[sweetheart]

43. its not a hate symbol

Shouting fire in a theatre is not
shouting fire by a campfire.

If people can't tell the difference, then
i see and accept your point. If we've the
maturity to root out a symbol that is a
thinly veiled threat of violence against
some persons, its not the same as a
flag for personal freedom.

I'm all for free speech, but i don't feel the public
should finance incitement of racism on its property.
I see how the rainbow flag could be associated with
"incitement", much like a woman apparently draws rape
by wearing sexy clothes... but i really thought we were
past that as a society.

But if we're not...

[Bridget Burke]

38. Blacks are a tiny minority at that school.

I doubt they will be able to organize the kind of opposition you describe.

[Cults4Bush]

117. Sorry I get a little pie eyed sometimes, I just hate these hard ones.

A flag that says I would hang you if given a chance, or freedom of speech.

These are tough calls with Liberals, eh?

[sweetheart]

26. hate symbols

That help incite racism in an area of notorious race crime
is not the same as a wicca symbol. I draw the line at hate
crimes, and that people are not willing to draw a line on hate
crimes explains why americana is tolerating hate crimes.

[Charlie Brown]

32. Do you really think these two girls intended to promote violence?

They sound like naive, clueless teens to me, and they probably don't care a fig about hate crimes or incting violence.

Even if they did, the confederate symbol is a part of history. Banning it from public view is irresponsible and autocratic. If someone is driven to violence by simply seeing the stars and bars in public, they need to grow up, IMHO.

These two girls have a constitutional right to display the stars and bars.

[sweetheart]

60. I frankly agree

But this is not an academic debate here in a non-racist forum like DU,
then surely a confederate flag is nothing more than some bits of colour
and some pretty stars.

But, my gay friend who went to houston for the weekend for a party
got beaten up by a pickup truck of thugs bearing that flag.

I am very much a believer in free speech, but only as it moderates
the other equally important civil rights. And if incitement to
racism causes people to lose their right to life and liberty, then
a wholistic approach needs be found that provides for both rights.

And clearly such an approach is gonna pinch the hate-speech end of
free speech. And rather than deal with such a difficult and
controversial point, as unpopular as it is even here, were i a
school administrator, i would keep the whole problem off my campus
at the cost of my job, as the instant i allow it on campus it will
be my job anyways.

I've seen this problem in several places in the world where long term
war conflicts are still remembered in-situ.

in an enlightened world, our free speech need threaten no person and
were i a naive liberal with no life experience, just writing on
such boards, i would not contest the little kiddies right to immitate
the racist symbols of their forebears. But having seen the underhanded
divisiveness that racists use in real life to communicate their approaches,
its a wholly different matter.

Sould we allow some nasa workers to hang a confederate flag on a space
shuttle launch because "they" helped? When do you draw the line. I
draw it on public property where the public squandered the blood of
a generation not to fly that flag.

[Bridget Burke]

39. Does the Pride Flag stand for slavery?

Were Wicca symbols worn proudly by traitors to our country?

They aren't the same at all.

[Charlie Brown]

42. To the majority of this Texas community, I'm sure the Pride Flag is viewed

with contempt. Probably as much contempt as you view the rebel flag.

If you give them the opportunity to ban it in schools, I'm sure they will go for it.

[AZBlue]

49. They aren't symbols of violence and death.

The only violence associated with those groups is the hate crimes against them. With a nazi flag or a confederate flag you are saying it's ok to kill people because of their religion or color.

[Charlie Brown]

53. I seriously doubt that's what these two girls are saying

They probably are just stupid teens who wan the right to display symbols that their family views as a part of their heritage. It's silly to paint these two girls as potential lynchers and agitators. They just want to be accorded their rights as American Citizens.

And the right to display the stars and bars is guaranteed by the First Amendment.

[AZBlue]

57. Ignorance is no excuse.

If they don't know what it represents, then they shouldn't be wearing it. Besides, I doubt any teenager in the south doesn't know what it means - I grew up in the south and it's a very prevalent item. You know about it and what it means and its history by the time you're 7 or 8 (at the oldest). Actually, a great number of Southerners now view it as a depressing thing and don't want to see it - to them it represents loss, defeat and hatred. Those who do display it, do so for the racial meaning of it.

[Charlie Brown]

63. Conservative groups argue just that about "liberal" symbols

You are asking for each interest group to bring their agenda to the public schools and demand symbols they find offensive to be prohibited. No more headscarves, peace symbols, rainbow emblems, or anything any powerful lobbying group finds offensive. (Yes, various groups claim that all of these are offensive and detrimental to schoolwork).

The principals and school boards do not have the same "litmus tests" as you do for these symbols and if they ban the stars and bars in the name of tolerance, will probably have to do likewise for other symbols.

These two girls have a right to display symbols their families view as historically important (it does not mean the same to them as to you), and that is exactly what the First Amendment is intended to protect.

[sweetheart]

107. you need to get clear on what a hate crime is.

http://www.lib.msu.edu/harris23/crimjust/hate.htm
http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria10_3.html

Provides that it is a misdemeanor to cause a person to fear for his or her safety by displaying racist signs on the private property of another, without authorization,
http://www.police.uci.edu/hatecrimes.html#laws

... hmm.. then what is it on public property?

The law in america is catching up with europe, slowly but surely. The unfettered
freedoms of spaced out libertarians have come square up against the fact that those
same libertarians all vehemently disagree with each other and all live 50 feet apart
in the hood.

Those 2 girls have all the rights in the world, but not in a public
school where the rights of *all* persons take precedence.

[Charlie Brown]

108. Do you think these two girls should be arrested?

This man was arrested in Austria for denying the holocaust:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4448896.stm

This French politician has been charged with "hate speech" and faces jail time:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/15/wgay15.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/12/15/ixworld.html

Is this really the model you want to adopt for America regarding free speech?

[sweetheart]

113. No

I think they should schools should keep public displays of symbols
and speech that incite racism and racist behavour amongst their students.

I'm not suggesting adoping austrian laws!

I'm not a fan that we should follow the european route. It is too based
on a catholic community common that simply does not exist in the meta-
consciousness of the american public ideal.

This is simple school management, and in case you've no training, just pretent.
Imagine you are principal of a shool of mostly white kids in the south.
The nearby universities are almost all segregated. Race crime is normal in
the neighborhoods of your schoool. The prisons around your school are mostly
filled with black persons for crimes both races commit similarly.

2 girls introduce a nightmare problem on your campus for your miniority
populations and for your overall campus well being in maintaining a
learning institution based on truth and the develpment of young adults.

Hmmm... you can do your path, and maybe lose your job down the line from
a civil right lawsuit that would indeed be warranted given the free hate
speech you've allowed... or you can keep the gangland shit off your campus
by banning the costumes, be it 150 year old gangsta racist rap, or 1 year
old gangsta rap... same same.. hate hate.. guns guns... kill kill.

You suddenly moved to austria on me here... what gives.

[AZBlue]

140. In addition to what sweetheart said, by your own definition...

...these other symbols are offensive or detrimental. The confederate flag is a symbol of death and violence and stands for and encourages hatred. Big difference. Yours is a straw-man argument.

[Charlie Brown]

141. Do THESE GIRLS view it that way?

Please point out how these girls are attempting to incite hatred and encourage violence by bringing these purses to their school.

"Big difference"

Not to the people who want to remove pride flags and other "liberal" symbols.

[AZBlue]

156. That's irrelevant.

Next time you get pulled over for speeding, just tell the cop you didn't know you were going over the speed limit and that it certainly wasn't your intention to speed. I'm sure that will get you out of the ticket!
:sarcasm:

[matcom]

28. let them wear the nazi flag

free speech is free speech nomatter how much you/i disagree with the message

[sweetheart]

51. context

When freedom of speech is 'assault', the realistic
threat of violence against a sovereign person, then
we have a conundrum of rights.

That flag says, in so many words, "Black people
are animals, and have no rights. If one dies, it
won't be noticed." People love to fly that flag to
say what can no longer be said in words. YOu might
just see colours and stars, but if your family was
black in east texas, and your relatives had assumed
the tragedy and abuse of the past forgiving that like
good christian folks might do... but to have it stuffed
in your face, is not freedom... no, it is a threat of
violence.

So what we're saying, is that it's ok to threaten
and imply violence in exact symbols and verbal terms for
fear of being charged with "assault". But when an
ambiguous symbol is charged to deliver the same
crime, the perpetrators are "exhonorated" because it
"could" be innocent.

Rather than cross all the T's, i agree with the school
administrators is to keep the entire problem off the
public property.

[Generic Other]

71. Gitmo should have more room for terrorists who hate America

Rebel insurgents lost the right to fly that flag. And I'm not interested in using my Constitution to defend it.

[Hosnon]

143. With all do respect...I would not want to live in the America you are

proposing.

[sweetheart]

160. i'm referring to public schools

This article explains best practices towards solving
racism problems in schoools:
http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-9215/racism.htm

You'll note that the administrators follwed best
practices. I merely applaud them for it.

[matcom]

27. just as stupid as banning anti-Bush shirts IMHO

fuck them. i say let them carry around the purses. we cannot be two-faced about this. remember the kid who wasn't allowed to wear the anti-Bush t-shirt? he won and i hope these girls do too.

[jody]

31. As freedom of expression, the students have a right to wear those items.

[Texifornia]

34. Echos of a Reconstruction cut short.

The nick name for my high school team in Texas was "The Rebels". We played against a high school named after Robert E. Lee called the "Generals". They were always pissed because we grabbed the "Rebel" name before they could. They, perhaps correctly, saw the nick name as more appropriate for a high school named for the most famous Confederate of all. The "Southern Cross" flag was the official flag of both schools. During games between the two schools both sides were completely festooned with Confederate garb and paraphanelia.

Both schools had about 20% black enrollment at the time. Both schools had black players and black cheerleaders wearing official uniforms with the Confederate Battle Flag (Southern Cross) all over.

During strict reconstruction all Confederate flags were prohibited. The so-called "Radical Republicans" thought it important to destroy the symbols of the old Confederacy to prevent icons around which a future resurgence may rally.

When reconstruction was cut short, the confederate symbols re-emerged. Much later, during the civil rights era, many southern states changed their state flags to incorporate the Southern Cross as a way to "stick it" to those damn northern liberals. It was also during this time (late 50s and early 60s) when there was a rash of public buildings, particularly schools (including mine) named after Confederate heroes and teams named "The Rebels".

I've often wondered how my black friends in high school felt being compelled to wear those uniforms. They all said that it didn't bother them. I don't think I really believed them then. I wonder how they feel now.

Sometimes political correctness is, well, correct.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Is it wrong for schools to have any kind of dress code?

If not, the principal was right to object.



Ashley and Aubrie McAllum both received purses patterened after the Confederate battle flag from their parents for Christmas. Both girls decided to take their presents to school.....

Ashley was sent home three times this week. "I'm at the point where I really don't know what to do," she said. "I want to keep going to school and get my education, but this is my life. I was born and raised in the South. Why is the flag so bad?"

Burleson High School, with a 2,200 student enrollment, is about 90 percent white, 8 or 9 percent Hispanic. There are very few African Americans.

www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa060106_wz_rebelpurse.4e738197.html

Black students are already a small minority in her school; they can't "answer back." The principal did the right thing by removing that symbol of slavery & treason. Let the little XXXXXXXXXX's carry their stupid purses on their own time.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

45. From reading their dress code it appears this may have been a violation

The following will not be permitted on campus:

Shall not lead school officials to believe that such dress or grooming will disrupt, interfere with, disturb, or detract from school activities. (He says that it has before.)

And it may fall under that portion also

Garment decorations, patches, lettering, advertisements, etc., that may be considered obscene, offensive, or lewd are not to be worn. Any garment or accessory with any drug emblem, beer, wine or alcoholic beverage advertisement is prohibited.

Link to their dress code.

http://www.burlesonisd.net/BHS/DressCode.htm

[William Bloode]

40. I disagree with the decision.

Right to freedom of expression.

But what do i know? I'm a racist who flies a Confederate flag. :headbang:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

46. I voted no.

Sorry but I don't think a school should have the right to regulate political speech, no matter how vile or hateful. Unless there is a direct threat of violence, these types of things should be allowed

[oasis]

50. Let those baby Rebs get their asses kicked then see what their parents

have to say. :nopity:

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

55. Gang colors NOT ALLOWED!

Any exhibition of gang colors or paraphernalia is prohibited in the public schools of California. I do not regard it as an infingement of the 1st Amendment because it is a blatant incitemant to violence, akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre.

[deadparrot]

58. I have to agree with those

who says it falls under "freedom of expression."

I may hate that flag and what it stands for, but they've got a right to wear/carry what they want. If it was a kid wearing an anti-Bush shirt, we'd be in an uproar. It's a slippery slope. "Anything that causes a disruption" could be made to fit almost any article of clothing, especially one with political leanings.

[Solon]

59. Jesus H. Christ, that isn't even the Confederate Flag!!!!!!

That is the battle flag of the Army of North Virginia, and a symbol for hatred and racism to boot!!! I hate it when people display their ignorance of their own heritage PROUDLY, idiots!!!!!!

For the curious, here's the REAL "Stars and Bars" the first flag of the Confederacy:


Here's "The Stainless Banner" the Second flag(scrapped later, looks a little to much like the white flag of surrender.):


And last, but not necessarily least, the "Final Edition":


It seems like those who want to display the battle flag for the Army of North Virginia only seem to want to stir up others, in addition to that, making a statement that they are racist assholes.

[Obamanaut]

72. The likeness in the article in OP link could also be related to the

CS Navy Jack, which was sometimes used as a battle flag - wasn't it?

http://www.confederateflags.org/FAQ/FOTCfaq2.htm

<snip>
1) The jack adopted by CS Navy regulations on 26 May 1863 was a rectangular version of the canton of the new national flag, which was based on the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia; and
2) All battle flags made by the Richmond Clothing Depot for the Army of Northern Virginia were essentially square, as were those made by the Charleston Clothing Depot; but
3) Some "Southern Cross" battle flags, with designs based on that of the Army of Northern Virginia, including those made by the Atlanta Clothing Depot in late 1863 and 1864 were not square
<snip>

[Solon]

76. True, but the point is this, none of those flags were officially....

recognized as flags representing the Confederacy at large. As such, they are invalid representations of "Southern Heritage" or other such crap. At best, they were flags co-opted by groups like the KKK to terrorize blacks, and as such that is ALL they stand for now.

[ecstatic]

64. Students cannot come to school half naked because its disruptive

As is a Confederate Flag symbol. I think some people are missing the point. Free speech is fine; however, in school settings, administrators have to put an end to anything that will disrupt learning and cause confusion.

[Charlie Brown]

73. How is the confederate flag a symbol that will "cause confusion"

or "disrupt learning?"

[ecstatic]

74. It incites feelings of hate, intimidation, anger, etc...

Are you African American? Maybe if you were you'd understand.

[Charlie Brown]

81. not to the people in the article

I have read articles about African-Americans who respect the confederate flag (look no further than Strom Thurmond's daughter, who wants to join the Daughters of the Confederacy). Your assumption does not hold up.

Do you believe we should go further and ban displaying the flag everywhere, or just public schools?

How is that different than banning any symbol that conservatives or Christians feel incites intimidation or anger, like peace emblems or rainbow flags.

Free speech applies to everyone, regardless of who is offended.

[ecstatic]

99. What do rainbow flags have to do with this????

Would there even be an argument if we were talking about a Swastika? A Rainbow flag is not a hate symbol. It was not flown when people were getting lynched or being enslaved. The same arguments do not apply. We are talking about an ALL WHITE school with a handful of black students. They should not have to be in a hostile environment with confederate flags popping up left and right.

[Charlie Brown]

104. If you can prove to me that the girls did this to promote violence

I might agree. Otherwise, their family attaches a different meaning to the flag, and they should not be singled out for displaying it.

"They should not have to be ian a hostile environment with confederate flags . . ."

Maybe they have no problem with it. If they live in TX, I would think they get large doses of the stars and bars.

[The Straight Story]

91. Like this guy, HK Edgerton?

http://www.southerngrace.biz/bonnieblue/13_hkedgerton.htm

[ecstatic]

97. He's the exception, not the norm

Most flag flyers are racist. That's just the way it is. Personally, I would not let a Confederate Flag disrupt my day. But if a flag flyer's life depended on me helping them out somehow... That's iffy. I'll just be honest.

[Hobarticus]

65. Romanticizing failure is for losers...

Sweetheart, the Confederacy lost. Nothing to be particularly proud of.

[Hosnon]

148. I believe that is inherently correct...can the winner romanticize an

aspect of a situation that it does not possess?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. I agree it shouldn't be allowed. To me it isn't a free speech issue.

It was inappropriate for a school atmosphere, as no one can competently argue that it isn't a racial symbol.

If that same student walked down the hall and declared "I hate (insert n word here)s, that would be speech but I would think most would agree she would and should be disciplined for.

I have no problem with this whatsoever.

[Charlie Brown]

82. The girls are not arguing that it is a racial symbol

Their family views it differently, and they have a right to display the symbol, regardless of the meaning others attatch to it. The girls are not saying, "I hate . . . " and it's a complete strawman to liken the situation to that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

84. It isn't important how they view it.

They could wear it in public as much as they want. But in a school environment it is inappropriate. Not because they don't find it offensive, but because most of educated society does. There are some ignoramuses that don't find the "N" word offensive either. Are you going to defend those people's rights to shout that word within the school halls without risk of discipline?

[Charlie Brown]

88. these girls are not shouting the "N" word

they are displaying the stars and bars on their accessories, and the principal has a problem with it.

The principal cannot legally single them out b/c they have displayed a historical symbol on their purses.

That is free speech.

[sweetheart]

93. it might be free speech with adults

With minors, it is inappropriate use of a racist symbol that could incite
problems on school grounds with minoritys. Were you a school principal
faced with this, despite your free speech personal convictions, you'd likely
make the common sense decision by ejecting the problem from your campus.

You may not have yourself been threatened by "southern men" and their flag.
I'd be winning to wager that every single black person in the united states
has, at one time or another, run in to that, and in that particular usage,
the flag goes from being an innocuous symbol of a dead revolution, to a
living symbol of a potential lynching... in a place where lynchings still
happen, however unpopularized.

Children are, despire our suggestions that they are innocent babes, often
the worst immitators of the darkest within their parents. How do you know
the total reasons for 2 white kids wearing slavery-gear. Your willingness
to excuse it as innocent falls in line with so many other excuses of silent
racism... little things that nobody would complain about except a black
person or a damn yankee. :-)

[Charlie Brown]

106. No racism here

just a willingness to extend the first amendment impartially to all (including students).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

112. Again, this isn't about the first amendment.

And I see you missed all of the context contained within my replies, as shown by your latest response, but whatever.

[sweetheart]

115. HeyHey

Then i wish you the karmic rewards of your views.

You've championed white racism in this thread.
Its time you spent some more time with racists who
are not faking it, as you do not evidence the disgust
levels of someone with more practical experience. It is
not an academic argument, but on of vital personal safety
and systemic crime.

The school administrators nipped this one in the bud.
Rather with your approach, we'll just accept that a lynching
is a normal event every few years, and the social forces that
suport that should just be allowed to run free.

No. Bin laden has proven to us that freedom can be
abused, even in our own country. We need to take a lesson
from him and tech up to out-virus them at the propaganda coal face.
This lesson is not to form a totalitiarian police state that
supports racism as free speech.

It might be rather, to not tolerate abuse of any persons, of
any sort, and to step on any potential abuse as fast as it
comes of age. I hail the school administrators for being on top
of things.

[Charlie Brown]

122. are you speaking of these two girls?

are they the epidemic of "white racism" you condemn so vehemently? These two teens, who shop at malls, and probably have political discussions just like we are doing.

Are the fact that these two girls believe they have a right to bring "confederate purses" to school a personal flaw in their character?

You seem to know an awful lot about these two teens, to see racism and hatred in their hearts. I don't judge others thru such a simplistic guage.

And I'll defend their rights as long as it will protect my own rights.

[sweetheart]

135. racism is always deniable isn't it

Oh, its not a symbol of slavery, but of states rights.
That's how racists do it. It only takes a wink, and an innocent
design from the shopping mall.

These are kids in a school. They have reasonably
suspended their absolute right to free speech that
they don't really have fully as they are not adults,
nor are they on private property, or in a public
demonstration.

Here you can see best practice policy for tackling
racism in public schools and your position is clearly bunk.
http://www.ericdigests.org/pre-9215/racism.htm

[High Plains]

124. "Championed white racism"? Puh-leeze

Mr. Brown made a pretty straight First Amendment case. That's not championing white racism. It's championing the same rights for everyone.

I don't suppose you think Nazis have a right to march, either.

[sweetheart]

131. adults and children

this is not a case of adults exercising free speech,
in public demonstration, nor in actual speech.

The first amendment was not designed for a high school,
and if you insist on using your right to free speech
to shout down your teacher, you will be expelled. There
are limits to free speech in schools, by the nature of the
authority granted to teachers and school admins to
correct and teach children healthy ways of thinking
and acting.

Everyone in the south knows what that flag stands for,
and it is the right of black minorites in the same
school not to be subtly threatened by overt wearing of
racist gang colours. In many schools gang colours are
disallowed similarly because they can incite problems
that take the kids away from learning.

So, practical, on the ground, this racism weakens the
educational institutions ability to teach, it threatens
the black student body with gang-problems of a sort
that will persist the entire adult lives of those involved.

So when i see the first amendment being bent around sideways
to avoid a context that is, fact, "racist gang colours".
Here is a link where smart people are militant about getting
racism out of our schools:
http://www.zerointelligence.net/archives/000337.php

There is no straightforward first amendment case here.
The case is to defend racism, and Mr. Brown has.

[ecstatic]

102. Do you really believe people still flying the flag in '06 are not racist??

[Charlie Brown]

105. There's nothing to indicate these girls are racist

do you know something about these two girls that we do not?

[Hosnon]

142. Without a doubt I can honestly say not all - what is so hard about seeing

different aspects of that flag?

[Dr Fate]

101. How about a "Not My President" Shirt- which have also been banned...

...by some schools.

I disagree with you- this IS a speech issue and you have to take the bad with the good.

[radio4progressives]

95. Just like Flag Burning is Free Speech...

So is the confederate flag.

these are all symbols of tribalism with in our culture.

The first amendment protects the rights of what we consider "hate" speech (which the confederate represents to me, as would the swastika and KKK symbols).

This is a problem that's going to require some serious soul searching and solutions that everyone will need to agree with.

i think for public schools are concerned, this brings up the notion of school uniforms as possibly a solution given the educational mandate of public schools, keep the tribalism off campus.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. The crux of this one isn't the content of the speech, it's the fact that

you're talking about kids in public schools. As you're no doubt aware.

Free speech is free speech- therefore, citizens have the right to burn flags, wear swastikas, drive cars with confederate flags on 'em, etc. etc. That's the first amendment, and I'm pretty much a first amendment absolutist.

But the SCOTUS has repeatedly said that certain civil liberties and bill of rights protections don't apply to kids in public schools. Far more onerous than telling kids what to wear, I think, is the fact that the fourth amendment- already rendered essentially null and void by two plus decades of a quasi-totalitarian "drug war"- doesn't apply, AT ALL, to public school students.

No, you absolutely shouldn't screw with the first amendment- free speech is only as good as the protections accorded to the speech that some, or even most, of us would find noxious- be that Nazi propaganda, racist screeds, or even (horrors!) pictures of consenting adults having sex with each other.

But kids in public schools are subject to rules above and beyond the constitution. Just the way it is.

[Dr Fate]

100. They try to ban anti-war speech too. Let them keep the purses, I say.

If the non-racist students want to wear progressive or radical symbols- then I don't want those banned either.

Ya have to take the good with the bad when it comes to free speech.

[Hardrada]

109. OK, so Army of Northern Virginia battleflag underwear

may be the way to go for these young ladies. And no short skirts either. They could still honor their heritage in a way!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

121. heh

nt

[PDittie]

110. Yes 43.24% No 56.76% n/t

[theHandpuppet]

111. This must be the "heritage" they speak of

Here's a little history lesson for those girls. The Texas Declaration of Secession...

Texas

Copied by Justin Sanders from E.W. Winkler, ed., Journal of the Secession Convention of Texas, pp. 61-66.

A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.

The government of the United States, by certain joint resolutions, bearing date the 1st day of March, in the year A.D. 1845, proposed to the Republic of Texas, then a free, sovereign and independent nation, the annexation of the latter to the former, as one of the co-equal states thereof,

The people of Texas, by deputies in convention assembled, on the fourth day of July of the same year, assented to and accepted said proposals and formed a constitution for the proposed State, upon which on the 29th day of December in the same year, said State was formally admitted into the Confederated Union.

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slaveholding States.

By the disloyalty of the Northern States and their citizens and the imbecility of the Federal Government, infamous combinations of incendiaries and outlaws have been permitted in those States and the common territory of Kansas to trample upon the federal laws, to war upon the lives and property of Southern citizens in that territory, and finally, by violence and mob law, to usurp the possession of the same as exclusively the property of the Northern States.

The Federal Government, while but partially under the control of these our unnatural and sectional enemies, has for years almost entirely failed to protect the lives and property of the people of Texas against the Indian savages on our border, and more recently against the murderous forays of banditti from the neighboring territory of Mexico; and when our State government has expended large amounts for such purpose, the Federal Government has refuse reimbursement therefor, thus rendering our condition more insecure and harassing than it was during the existence of the Republic of Texas.

These and other wrongs we have patiently borne in the vain hope that a returning sense of justice and humanity would induce a different course of administration.

When we advert to the course of individual non-slave-holding States, and that a majority of their citizens, our grievances assume far greater magnitude.

The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holding States in their domestic institutions-- a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States.

By consolidating their strength, they have placed the slave-holding States in a hopeless minority in the federal congress, and rendered representation of no avail in protecting Southern rights against their exactions and encroachments.

They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a 'higher law' than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.

They have invaded Southern soil and murdered unoffending citizens, and through the press their leading men and a fanatical pulpit have bestowed praise upon the actors and assassins in these crimes, while the governors of several of their States have refused to deliver parties implicated and indicted for participation in such offenses, upon the legal demands of the States aggrieved.

They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides.

They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose.

They have impoverished the slave-holding States by unequal and partial legislation, thereby enriching themselves by draining our substance.

They have refused to vote appropriations for protecting Texas against ruthless savages, for the sole reason that she is a slave-holding State.

And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States.

In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

By the secession of six of the slave-holding States, and the certainty that others will speedily do likewise, Texas has no alternative but to remain in an isolated connection with the North, or unite her destinies with the South.

For these and other reasons, solemnly asserting that the federal constitution has been violated and virtually abrogated by the several States named, seeing that the federal government is now passing under the control of our enemies to be diverted from the exalted objects of its creation to those of oppression and wrong, and realizing that our own State can no longer look for protection, but to God and her own sons-- We the delegates of the people of Texas, in Convention assembled, have passed an ordinance dissolving all political connection with the government of the United States of America and the people thereof and confidently appeal to the intelligence and patriotism of the freemen of Texas to ratify the same at the ballot box, on the 23rd day of the present month.

Adopted in Convention on the 2nd day of Feby, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one and of the independence of Texas the twenty-fifth.

[sendero]

116. It is well established...

... that students in public schools do NOT have full free speech rights. They cannot wear anything that the administrators feel is disruptive.

The racist bitch can take it to court until hell freezes over, she'll get nowhere with it, a student simply doesn't have the rights she's claiming, and this has been to court many times before.

[Dunvegan]

126. So if you're okay with the confederate flag purse...

...do you also feel that urban schools trying to throw cold water on in-school gang violence ban red (Bloods) and blue (Crips) doo-rags, etc?

Just askin'....

[BlackVelvet04]

133. Free speech and thus free expression

is for everyone, not just those you happen to agree with.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

137. Well, they could have just worn sheets and hoods.

Less colorful but the same message.

[LizW]

138. Isn't there settled case law on this?

I believe the courts have decided this very issue, and ruled that schools may prohibit display of "Confederate" flags if they have a history of causing disruption in that particular school. Sounds to me like the school spokesperson has read the case, too.

[LWolf]

150. One of my students,

a black 8th grader, wore a shirt last week that said, "I <heart> Daisy."

The heart was a Confederate flag. Some of his white classmates asked him why he wore a racist symbol like that. He shrugged, and said the flag didn't bother him. Of course, this is in the north, not the south; it's not a revered or despised symbol of the local culture.

Schools have always tried to "censor" clothing-related expression. It's called a dress code. I wonder if the flag is mentioned in that school's?

Meanwhile, the dress code attempts to suppress expression of gang identity, sexual suggestion, profanity, and violence. The location of the line drawn for "dress code" is subjective. It will be a little different for each district, and may be applied differently at each school site. As long as a line has to be drawn, there will be those on both sides who disagree with its placement. Personally, I find the Confederate flag argument to be on par with the war on christmas; both are nice distractions from weightier matters.

[JVS]

153. They should stone the students

[Neil Lisst]

157. The girls will LOSE.

Schools clearly have the right to ban such purses.

[mitchum]

158. Stupid little cracker girls with no taste proud of their LOSER heritage...

of treason and racism...
Oh well...