"This army is different....these soldiers are 'volunteers'"...

[linazelle]

NBC newsreader Mike Betcher on Today Show this morning comparing Iraq to Vietnam.

What volunteer signed up for three, four, five redeployments? What reserve volunteer signed up to overseas active duty?

The lies continue...:puke:

[babylonsister]

1. What volunteer joined the Navy and is subsequently shifted

to Army duty, what volunteer in the National Guard joined to protect the US, but is sent to Iraq?
Lots of holes in that argument. :grr:

[benddem]

7. or Air Force n/t

[radwriter0555]

30. The military is NOT VOLUNTEER. Volunteers don't get paid. Last time

I checked, the US troops are all paid.

That is, unless you want to classify all working stiffs as volunteers too.

It's a misnomer. It's a throwback to nations that conscript their troops. The US troops are paid employees of the US government...

[uppityperson]

36. They voluntarily joined rather than involuntarily drafted.

That is what "voluntary" means. Disregarding economic reasons (can't get a paying job) and the fact that stop loss won't let them quit when their time is up.

[radwriter0555]

38. Well, just to be argumentative, they can walk away any time they want.

Granted they're 'breaking the law' and will suffere penalties, but they won't be shot for desertion, etc.

More than 8000 have deserted since the start of the iraq war. I say good on them.

[uppityperson]

40. Yes, and draftees can voluntarily go to jail also, when draft happens

so everyone is a volunteer. Interesting take on not being a volunteer because you get paid, by the way.

[onethatcares]

2. and they die and die,

recently I've noticed a different slant to the St. Pete Times, they put the soldier in perspective with his community. I think the tide is turning.

[TomInTib]

3. They repeated the same bs on Nightly News

Tell you what, asshat Belcher, I volunteered and spent 27 months in combat in that conflict you inferred was a "draftee force".

Stick it, chump.

[Hekate]

4. "There they go again," as their own St Ronnie used to say....

There they go again with the Big Lie, or the small lies that add up to the Big One.

1. We have an economic draft in this country, so most of the pre-911 volunteers and a lot of the ones since then, are just trying to get an education and job training they couldn't get in civilian life.

2. Since when did anyone in the National Guard "volunteer" for overseas deployment? They were counting on serving the nation in times of natural disaster (ahem, like Katrina) or if foreign troops actually landed on our soil. Nothing wrong with that, and a lot of things right with it.

3. A lot of folks joined up after 9-11 figuring our government would set them to fighting the Taliban and finding Osama Bin Forgotten. They didn't volunteer to enrich Halliburton and invade countries that were better left alone, although they may have swallowed the propaganda that said they were doing otherwise.

Support our troops! Issue body armor!
Support our troops! Put the Army back in charge of supplying their own food and water!
Support our troops! Fund the VA!
Support our troops! Bring them home now!

Hekate

[acmejack]

5. They volunteered for college benefits, to learn a skill

Damned few volunteered to bleed & die. These soulless polecats disgust me beyond belief.This Country should Never be in a war without a MANDATORY universal draft. That would put an end to these bullshit wars ina flash, if a few of the rich kids were serving & sacrificing along side the Casey Sheehans.

[linazelle]

6. I don't know that they volunteered only for college benefits--I say they

volunteered for duty...but not repeat duty. Nobody who signed up thought they would be called to serve multiple times. That's where I see the problem.

[benddem]

8. also

they didn't sign up to be cannon fodder.

[rman]

31. ...or for American citizenship...

About 1/3 of the troops is not American.

[Neil Lisst]

9. there were as many if not more volunteers in Vietnam ...

...millions served in Vietnam from 1964 to 1975. Most guys only did one tour of duty.

Many were draftees, but many were volunteers, and those volunteers sometimes took a second or third tour voluntarily. But you knew you were only going to be SENT for one tour.

Now, they rotate the same 300,000 troops in and out, over and over.

Of course, our troops are really not engaged in the same kind of search and destroy seen in Vietnam. Mostly, they protect the green zone, the corridors needed for commerce and air travel, the oil systems, and US bases being built. They are literally occupiers who are there to protect those aforementioned items of US commerce and power.

And let's remember, this war is 3 years old, or 1967 in Vietnam time. It still has time to become VIETNAM.

[TahitiNut]

17. "sometimes took a second or third tour voluntarily"

Well, if you ignore the coercive effect of $5-20,000 to re=up with another tour, I guess it was called 'voluntary.' (As I recall, I could've gotten $12,000 - tax-free - to re-up. That looked like a lot of money to me back in 1969.) When a guy was married, maybe with a wife and kid to support, maybe on food-stamps, that money looked pretty good - along with the combat pay. No... that wasn't everyone, or even the majority. Then again, there's no such thing as the 'average' either - everyone's unique.

I was a draftee in Viet Nam. To the best of my recollection, draftees didn't bleed any differently from 'volunteers.' :shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

21. what's your point?

I made a statement of fact.

There were many volunteers, and many who pulled more than one tour.

There were also some draftees who ended up pulling a second tour.

Re-enlistment bonuses were based upon your pay grade and career field, and the ones that paid the most were NOT infantry or combat jobs.

[TahitiNut]

33. "a statement of fact" is often a half-truth ... misleading by implication.

Folks seem to use the term "volunteers" as though we're seeing the equivalent of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Nothing could be further from the truth. We 'Americans' have sadly depended upon the coercion of economically and socially disenfranchised people to populate our military from the very outset. It's not unusual, but it's appallingly undemocratic (imho). When people narrowly identify 'draftees' as some percentage of guys sent to Viet Nam, they ignore the coercive impact of the draft in recruiting, offering some advantage (an entitlement) to the 'voluntary' enlistee above that enjoyed by mere draftees. (It was a kind of Sophie's Choice.) When people proclaim that today's military in Iraq are all 'volunteers,' they often ignore the "Stop Loss" program. I find it rather ironic that so many National Guardsmen have been called up to serve in Iraq - since the National Guard was an entitlement-driven force during Viet Nam.

Perhaps most amusing/perplexing to me today is the degree to which we have so many experts on "The Way It Was" during Viet Nam who weren't even alive then or never personally trod the dirt of Viet Nam. ("But my father/brother/cousin/husband was there...") Given the degree to which people assiduously avoided even discussing Viet Nam with returning veterans (lepers) in the years following, this is remarkable to me. There are fewer than 1 million of us left alive today - funny how it seems like there're so many more.

[Neil Lisst]

43. They're volunteers as that term is used in the English language.

If you want to say that volunteers are enticed by a variety of incentives, that's fine, but we were volunteers.

There were no bonuses of $12,000 in 1969. The Variable Reenlistment Bonus (VRB) program was based upon your pay grade and your career field. The top bonus for an E-5 was about 8 grand, and for E-6 about 10 grand. I turned the top bonus down, and my career field was one of those in the highest VRB category.

I knew a lot of soldiers who got 8 grand, but I didn't know any who got 12 grand. Most fields paid 2 or 4 grand.

[TahitiNut]

45. E-5, 74F20

I only vaguely remember the VRB (+RRB) I would've gotten other than it was as much as I'd earn in a year. Before I was drafted, I was making $8.5K as a programmer at Chevrolet. (I recall aspiring to $1K/mo after getting back.) I also recall thinking "Yeah. Right." whenever the topic came up - it was a "what if?" I thought about only after getting back and having the shit hit the fan.

I (re)assert that there's really no comparison between the 'voluntary' (re)enlistees today and in 1969 and the Abraham Lincoln Brigade - the kind of equivalence implied by the emphasis on the word "volunteer." There are "volunteers" in political campaigns - no pay, no bonus. There are "volunteer" firefighters - little or no pay, no bonus. There are "volunteers" at church - no pay, no bonus. Coercion ("incentives") is shades of gray, not binary.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

25. When did Vietnam really explode?

timewise?

[Neil Lisst]

26. buildup in 1964 and 1965, big losses by 1966, 1967

I think 1968 was the peak in losses year.

The first two years losses were not greatly larger in Vietnam than in Iraq, but by the third year, the losses were dramatic.

As for the draft, the peak years it played a role were 1965-1970. The lottery was in effect by 1970.

[SeattleGirl]

27. '68 was the start of the turning point, that being the year of the

Tet Offensive, among other things.

[Neil Lisst]

29. The Tet was the turning point in the war. It was early 1968.

The highest losses for US personnel was that year. About 16-17 thousand, as I recall.

I joined shortly after the Tet and was in Vietnam 18 months later. The action peaked in 1968.

[Katherine Brengle]

10. A lot of good men died in Vietnam bc they "volunteered" in order to...

avoid the uncertainty of the draft.

There is massive coercion to join the US Armed Forces--promises of college money, recruiters coming into high schools in poor areas...

It's a bunch of bs.

[Avalux]

11. New RW talking point - Ileana Ros-Lehtinen spewed it on Bill Maher

She said the same thing essentially; that since our military is all volunteer, they WANT to be in Iraq and believe in the mission.

Rediculous argument.

[liveoaktx]

18. VIDEO compilation that includes the smackdown argument to

Bush's volunteer comments, with Ross-Lehtinen called out by Belzer

[Avalux]

20. Thanks!

She is revolting. :puke:

[cynatnite]

23. I so hate this fucking war!

:grr:

Thanks for the compilation. Everyone should see they fucking hypocrisy that infects this administration.

[Imagevision]

24. And the cost of Iraq's freedom is setting back americans a trillion??!!

[SeattleGirl]

28. I wanted to smack the shit out of her when she said that!

They volunteered to serve their country. But that does NOT give their country (or rather, the unelected, illegitimate "leader") to send them into combat in a pre-emptive, unnecessary war.

I have respect for the people who volunteer for military service. I have absolutely NO respect for civilians who abuse, misuse, and disrespect them.

[Fleshdancer]

12. Volunteered service doesn't give you the right to lie to soldiers.

Volunteered service doesn't mean you don't need an exit strategy.
Volunteered service doesn't mean you should dismiss the fact that this is an illegal war.
Volunteered service doesn't mean we should close our eyes and assume the war is going well.
Volunteered service doesn't make for a different Army, just a different way of entering the Army.

ridiculous.

[linazelle]

13. I can only hope that future volunteers will think thrice.

I am sure they will.

[Fleshdancer]

15. I think they are which explains the low recruitment numbers

Not that it matters. Today they praise our volunteer military, but in a few months they will shift to the "volunteer efforts aren't enough and we need a draft" bs because they don't have the man power to go into Iran as is.

Watching the neocons destroy everything is like reading a very bad novel and knowing how it ends before you get to chapter 3.

[SPKrazy]

14. You Can Damned Well Bet Most Won't Sign Up Again!

And yet the recruiters are out looking for targets.

I was in a restaurant and two soldiers were in there. They looked at my 6 year old son, and I wanted to say to them, he isn't going to be a soldier for you, EVER!

[Fenris]

16. That's a terrific way of skirting the real issue.

No one is debating the voluntary status of the army - that status is a well-established fact. The men and women who are in Iraq agreed to join the army and become a soldier. It is a moot point.

What is really important here is that, like Viet Nam, those who exert control over the military manipulated intelligence and information and led the country to war in pursuit of a phantom menace. The lesson of Viet Nam was not learned - superior firepower, technology, and training does not a victory make. When you are up against an enemy on his home turf, where he can blend in and you cannot, it doesn't matter what kind of advanced weapons you have in your arsenal. The military planners - civilian and in uniform - could not win under those circumstances then, and they cannot do it now.

The war in Iraq, which has claimed so many lives - American and Iraqi - so far, has not made us safer, and no amount of ammunition expended is going to change that. We destroyed their infrastructure, their bureaucracy and their military, and the planners expected a new government to arise from scratch. And the US military was left there, to perform a myriad of redundant tasks while the country descended into civil war around them.

The soldiers aren't at issue here - it's the people in charge. The soldiers matter because they are the ones being slaughtered for an ever-changing purpose. Voluntary or not, they don't deserve to be treated in such an irresponsible way.

[kentuck]

19. Yes.. they volunteered. ..we can do anything we want with them...

They volunteered. We can ask them to die for any cause we deem is worthy. It doesn't have to be to protect our nation or even in our national interest. The belong to the CiC t do whatever he wishes. They are different from every other soldier that has ever served our country. They have no right to question anything. They volunteered.

[Imagevision]

22. They were volunteers for fighting Afganistan becuse of 9-11 - if they

had a clue that they were going to fight a war under phoney/and or false intel, the number of those "volunteering" surely would not have been as great. They didn't know they had a president who was/is a liar and can't be trusted.

[Guaranteed]

32. That's actually not a good thing. That implies that they don't

want to get the job finished and over with as much as a draftee army would want to.

[raysr]

34. If the troops like it

so much, I hope they can stay there, I really don't want someone back here that's enjoying killing so much. Support the Troops? Not me.

[rustydog]

35. NEW talking point...Republican used it on Real Time!!

Now it is the soldier's fault, they volunteered.

This isn't like vietnam, there was a draft during Vietnam...These guys volunteered and you are not supporting them!
Shame on you...why do you hate America?

[underpants]

39. That is exactly what I thought of

it must mean something to them. Who knows at this point?

[genie_weenie]

37. It helps people to ignore

the problem by intoning the mantra, well they signed the contract... So anything our government does to them is all right.

Like human guinea pigs for non-FDA approved anthrax shots

Continued deployments, which dissolve marriages, destroy ideals and morals, not to mention the serious physcial harm done

And while it is an unbreakable contract for the individual, the government can ignore it at their whim.

And does it strike anyone else as odd, that sports stars can hold out of their contracts worth millions (and the violation of players rights get huge coverage by the MSM), but we expect a 19 year old, making $1250 a month w/ hazardous duty included, to suck it dummy?

[Ganja Ninja]

41. That's right W screw them over all you want.

You can get your media whores and the rest of the GOP to repeat the meme but that doesn't mean it's not leaving a bad taste in the mouths of the soldiers and sailors you abuse. They'll remember it long after this is over.

[Chimichurri]

42. Ileana Somethingorother R congressperson from FL barked

that same line on Bill Maher this Friday.

Republican talking points are so stupid. Because they are volunteer they deserve to have their lives ruined for a lie? Who do they think is going to buy this latest crap??

[newspeak]

44. some of those "volunteer" soldiers

already completed active duty and are on the inactive duty roster--some of those soldiers were active duty under a saner commander-in-chief--some of those soldiers (like my daughter) are on the inactive roster with a military police MOS, re-upped to active under a different MOS so there's a chance they wouldn't be heading to Iraq. And so, they're volunteers in the national guard---how many guardsmen do you think would ever dream that they would be witnessing the horrors of Iraq instead of protecting their own backyard?

[sakabatou]

46. Backdoor draft, chimpy...