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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:44 PM
Original message
World War I : Which Country was Most Responsible?
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 07:00 PM by liberalpragmatist
I'm going through a bit of a WWI-thing right now. I just can't get over how tragic, unnecessary, and thoroughly ridiculous a conflict WWI was. In many ways, it's more tragic than WWII. WWII resulted in far more deaths - close to 50 million by some estimates - and included the Holocaust and massive devastation of European and Asian cities. But WWII was more justifiable - given the rise of Hitler and Japanese militarism, some kind of confrontation was necessary and proper and at least some good came of it in the form of the liberation and stabilization of Western Europe, the establishment of democracies in Italy, Germany, and Japan, Decolonialism, the formation of the United Nations, and the saving of at least half of Europe's Jews. Unfortunately, the other half were not so lucky.

But it's difficult to come up with any truly good outcomes to World War I. And while it's difficult to see how armed conflict could have been completely averted, it truly was unnecessary. As the saying goes - WWI was the avoidable war that nobody tried to avoid; WWII was the unavoidable war that so many tried to avoid. The slaughter was so senseless. In a more just world, nearly all the generals would have tied up and charged for war crimes, sacrificing hundreds of thousands of young men for only a few miles of territory. The war led quite directly into WWII, the collapse of the Russian Empire and the Bolshevik Revolution which led to the Cold War, and so much of the conflict in the Middle East that continues to

In the end, there's a lot of debate as to which of the major nations involved was most responsible for the war. Of course, in answering the question, you could go for the cop-out and say "everybody" :) - but I think it'd be a more interesting discussion running through which one or two nations you think were most responsible.

Serbia - With ties to terrorist groups like the Black Hand agitating against Austro-Hungarian rule and Pan-Slavic aims, Serbia's actions led directly into the conflict by leading to the death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Of course, it's doubtful that Serbia directly caused the escalation of what was supposed to be a narrow conflict between AH and Serbia into a much wider conflagration. Plus, they actually accepted most of Austria-Hungary's demands.

Austria-Hungary - In seeking a "final reckoning" with Serbia, Austria-Hungary's rulers decided to throw away diplomacy and make a strike on Serbia, irresponsibly brushing off fears of Russian entrance into the conflict. Austria-Hungary was also politically unstable. If it wasn't quite as weak and tottering as the Ottomon Empire, it was clearly in need of major reform. The leaders of AH felt that war could destroy the various national movements within the empire by crushing the South Slav nationalist movements and uniting the other peoples of the Empire. Had they been more aware of Russia's likely involvement, would the Great War have been avoided?

Russia - Humiliated by their defeat in the Russo-Japanese War, the Russian Czar and his advisors wanted a war or at least some kind of quick military confrontation in order to boost patriotic feeling in a rapidly industrializing but politically weak Russian Empire, in order to defuse calls for greater democratization and autonomy or independence for various nationalities. Though allied with Serbia, there was no inherent need for Russia to get involved, and their involvement directly led to German, and then French involvement. Had Russia stayed on the sidelines, would nothing more have occurred other than a third Balkan War of 1914?

Germany - Germany encouraged Austria-Hungary to attack Serbia, believing that such a confrontation could strengthen their unstable neighbor to the South. They hoped to at least win a moral victory, strengthen their Southern flank, and shore up their position on the continent. At the same time, German militarism had been rising for quite some time. They had openly provoked Great Britain and France with their pursuit of an arms race and their naval buildup. The Prussian Junkers and the ruling establishment in Berlin believed a war at some point was likely, and many argued that if Russia and France became involved, it would offer the opportunity for Germany to make a pre-emptive strike, particularly at Russia. They also hoped a military victory would strengthen their rule over Germany, as that position was being threatened by the socialists and the Social Democratic Party. On the other hand, there were quite active efforts as the continent hurtled to war to avert one, as many generals realized that a short, relatively bloodless war was not at all a sure thing.

France - French militarism had been exceptionally strong in the leadup to the war. Where Bismarck, before his removal, had tried to avoid a European war, many governments in France actively sought it. French revanchism was strong, and the desire to retake Alsace-Lorraine was deep-seated. The French were well-aware that regaining Alsace-Lorraine would be impossible without a war. Their rivalry with Germany would not have permitted them to tolerate German expansion in the East. The decision of France to get in created a two-front war and was a prime contribution in forcing Britain into the war.

Britain - Some British historians have taken the previously unorthodox view that Britain was responsible for the war. Without British involvement, there might well have been a conflict in the Balkans. But British involvement turned the Western Front into a bloody stalemate, and directly caused a world war, as the vast forces of the British Empire was mobilized across the world. British diplomacy leading up to the war was badly botched, and Britain's war aims were vague and unclear in the months and weeks preceding the war. The conflict in the Balkans war mostly ignored in England and it was less than two week period that summer that led to British involvement. The Germans had not calculated that the British would get involved. Had they stayed out, the result may well have been a quick, relatively bloodless German victory. (Whether that would have prevented further conflict down the road is an open question). Otherwise, some have argued that had Britain clearly communicated to Germany that they would not tolerate German invasions of Belgium and France, it's possible - even probable - that Germany would have backed down, realizing that a two-front war against Britain, France, AND Russia would be a war of attrition and that a German victory was not even that likely.

The United States - The U.S. was a late entrant into the war. WWI is sort of a forgotten war in the U.S. today, completely eclipsed in culture and popular memory by WWII. But it's easy to forget that the U.S. lost nearly 150,000 troops in World War I and caused massive domestic strife at home. Some have argued that without U.S. involvement, the war would have remained a stalemate in Europe and the European powers would have given up due to exhaustion, a year or two earlier than they actually did. This could have resulted in an armistance between the European powers in which no side had a victory and the senseless killing stopped.

***

I know little of Ottomon involvement in WWI. If somebody can explain how the Ottomons could have held responsibility for the conflict, I'd be quite interested.

As for me, I tend to put most of the blame on Russia and Germany - of the two, primarily Russia. Without Russian involvement, the war would have remained a regional war that didn't engulf all of Europe or the entire world. Russia was not directly threatened by the conflict, which was largely an internal matter between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. Without Russian involvement, there would have been no German, French, or British involvement.

So, assuming this thread doesn't sink like a stone - what do you guys think?
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think the blame belongs to the elite classes in all the countries.
Edited on Fri Jan-06-06 06:50 PM by K-W
Who prioritized wealth and power over human life.

As you explain, its really impossible to blame that war on one country in particular, they were all out for thier own self interest and they all wanted victory, not peace.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Britain and France defending their colonial empires against the upstart...
Germans is my initial take. I'll be interested in other's opinions.

Oh, by the way, you may want to proof read your title...
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah, I caught that
Thanks!
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm obsessed by this war
as is my mom, who is English. I think without the Brits...it never would have escalated to the horror it became. But all the countries were horrendous. The generals and politicians in all countries were just awful and have the blood of so many on their hands...Want to read a great book? "Some Desperate Glory, The World War 1 Diary of a British Officer" by Edwin Campion Vaughan. Unbelievable. No doubt you have read "All Quiet on the Western Front".
I completely agree with you about the utter waste and stupidity of this "war to end all wars". Bush and his gang of creeps would have been right at home in those days.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I imagine your mother's family must have a lot of terrible memories
Granted, the generation that lived through that was is probably gone, but I'm sure that your grandparents and great-grandparents all have stories. I can't imagine what life was like for Europeans between the second and sixth decades of the 20th Century. First, so many families lost all their sons, brothers, friends to the first world war. Then twenty years later, the survivors saw THEIR children get killed in battle and their entire cities destroyed.
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Me, too -- started with the PBS series "The Great War"
I watched that thing EVERY time it was on, sitting hypnotized and aghast at how a few power-hungry people started a total nightmare. It was like a road wreck -- I couldn't turn it off. Were I to see it again now, I'd probably see a lot of parallels with today (in terms of social divisions and the short-sightedness of world leaders) and cringe.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
20. it's fascinated me for years.
Both my grandfathers served in France - one as an ambulance driver, the other as a machine gun company captain. Modernity began in the war years.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. this is a pretty silly question
It was Clinton's fault, of course.


(seriously, I'm also a WWI buff. I think blame was diffuse and shared pretty equally among Germany, Britain, Russia, France and Austria-Hungary. The Balkan instability should not have been allowed to suck all the European powers into war. Plus, new technologies meant they had virtually no idea the destruction they were about to unleash.)
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northzax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. Germany.
Not for the reasons you cite. I blame the Treaties of Munster and Oonsbruck. (traditionally known as Westphalia) which led to the state system. After that, pan-continental conflicts were almost inevitable, and WWI was the logical folllowing of newly powerful states seeking to exert themselves in the world order.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. in looking for German scholar Fischer's claim Germany to blame I
found this site

http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~zeppelin/originsww1.htm

(the 3rd section)

Without question, the Fischer controversy is central to any debate surrounding the origins of WWI. Fritz Fischer broke ranks from the traditional Rankean historical approached employed by German historians arguing for more than a casual link between domestic fears of the German power elite and the expansionist aims of the Kaiserreich. Fischer contends the elites wanted war since 1912 (the year of sweeping Social Democratic gains in the Reichstag) and manipulated the Austrians into using the Casus Belli (lawful cause of war) created by the assassination of Archduke into starting WWI. Fischer's felt that some newly opened archives, specifically Bethmann Hollweg's famed "September Programme" which called for annexations and economic mastery over central Europe, demanded a different interpretation for the war. In sum, Germany had a plan and the German power elites machinations in 1914 brought about their war to stave off democracy and attain continental hegemony. Besides being the springboard for any discussion regarding WWI, Fischer's work has had numerous implications:

He helped open the floodgates of social history and later Alltagsgeschichte (everyday history). This was more of a byproduct of inspiration rather than his methodology since his work is mainly a one-way dialogue between the masses and the elite.
He and his work were heavily ridiculed by conservative German historians in the backlash he created by shedding a different light on the question on German war guilt barely a decade after the Nazi-era.
Perhaps most unsettling, by identifying numerous continuities between Kaiser Wilhelm's Germany and Adolf Hitler's - the most significant being an agrarian-big business alliance who used domestic repression and external aggression to defend their power and privilege against liberalism and socialism - Fischer argues for something rotten in German history, whose roots go well back before 1914. For Fischer, Germany's war aims in 1914 and 1939 were eerily similar.
Fischer has been criticized for putting Germany outside of historical context. Germany appears aggressive only because Fischer isolates her from an age where expansion was prevalent and all nations had "war councils". Fischer's has also been accused of confusing the timing of German war aims. Hollweg's programme came after war had already broken out and Germany appeared on the verge of winning. Additionally, all belligerents had grandiose goals. Finally, the Powder Keg advocates claim that structural forces drove the engine of history, not the German elite. For instance, it could be argued the Schlieffen Plan's rigid timetable relegated Bethmann Hollweg to a diplomatic instrument. In sum, Fischer ascribes far too much historical agency to a small cadre of Germans who are not too dissimilar to their European counterparts.

Nevertheless, Fischer's domestic focus has inspired a generation of historians to reevaluate old historical canons.....
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. I put it mostly on
Austria-Hungary and Germany.

The Ottomans couldn't have been a cause. They simply took advantage of the situation. IIRC, there's some slight evidence that they maybe pushed the Serbians to fight for independence, but as we've all seen, the Balkans don't need much of a spark to go boom.

The Russians had serious issues, they had no interest in a war. They were scared of Germany, however, especially when Germany abandoned their alliance to form alliance with Austria-Hungary. So they formed entente with GB and France.

One issue that isn't discussed is the Schlieffen Plan and how Moltke altered it. Originally, the Plan would have (theoretically, I don't think it would have worked no matter what) finished off France quickly so Germany could move East to face the Russian threat. Had this worked, we'd never have seen the trench warfare, the stalemate, and the long war of attrition. Quite possibly Russia doesn't have a communist revolution. But Moltke shifted too many troops to the left of the line, and that was that. Plus the French, cheese-eating surrender monkeys that they are, put up a startlingly effective resistance to save Paris.

Britain joined because Germany was a threat and because Britain was in the Entente.

A good rundown of the causes of the war.

As for America, we actually shortened the war. Not because of any skill or brilliant leadership; we mostly had untried and untested troops who weren't trained in the sort of warfare they were facing (my great grandfather among them). No, we changed the equation of attrition. The various leaders were calculating "wastage" and major casualty events (battles), and were figuring out how long they could keep going before they ran out of troops. The ages allowed in the military were dropping on all sides. IIRC, 14/15 year olds were about to be drafted by the allies. America came over with a million troops and counting, and Germany realised they couldn't keep up, especially with the British naval blockade preventing supplies from reaching them. The Germans essentially gave up before they were wiped out completely.

I gotta dig out my books again, it's been a long time since I read this stuff.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. the Kaiser, specifically.
There's plenty of blame to go around on all sides, of course, starting with the idiots who viewed a war as a pleasant little way to save Europe's youth from too much peace. But you have to wonder if the whole thing would have ever escaped the Balkans had Wilhelm not been jealous of his English cousins and their empire.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yup
They became a state too late, so the only areas left to colonise were crappy leftovers.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I read "Castles of Steel" this summer
about the naval arms race leading up to the war. I hadn't known before that Germany had a colony on the Chinese mainland, or if I had known I'd forgotten it.

Good to see you, Laz. :)
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-07-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. nice to see you, too, Uly
I'm plodding my way through a book on the battle of the Somme right now, in between rereading the Dune series.

Have you read Winston Groom's "A Storm in Flanders"? He turns a novelist's eye for the personal story and tragedy to the Ypres Salient, it's a remarkable book. Non-fiction, of course.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. The system of alliances formed after the Franco-Prussian war...
is mostly to blame. Austria used the assassination of Franz Ferdinand as an excuse to declare war on Serbia; Russia saw this as a violation of its sphere of influence, and there was a general mobilisation of Russian troops. The Germans became rather nervous at this, because they'd WANTED war anyway, and expected to have to fight both Russia and France, but their plan for fighting on two fronts was predicated on the Russians being disorganised and slow to mobilise. So following the tsar's rejection of a German ultimatum to stand down, Germany declared war on Russia, and then the next day on France (the French had mutual defence agreements with Russia, primarily to act as a check on German aggression following the Franco-Prussian War), and when war came, the Germans were determined to invade France first, as the French army was the numerically inferior of their two opponents. The most direct route for the invasion lay through Belgium, which brought Britain into the war because of their obligations, under the 1839 Treaty of London, to protect Belgian neutrality. Really, the whole thing was just a monumental cock-up.

I'd recommend that you read The Guns of August, by Barbara Tuchman; it's one of the best books on the beginning of the First World War.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Monarchists and Colonialists ... expansionist greed.
:shrug:
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iamtechus Donating Member (868 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Great WWI Photos
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cwydro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. wow
that is an awesome site....
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Check out these COLOR World War I-era photos
http://www.poiemadesign.com/wwi/index.html





They're among the first color photos ever taken, with technology patented by the Lumiere brothers. It was expensive at the time, but a number of color photos exist of the French theater.
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Rufus T. Firefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
14. The military complex.
From what I've read, everything was set for a war. If this hadn't caused it, something else would have, and soon. Everyone felt obligated to follow their alliances, and their war plans made it obligatory to go to war. Germany's plans required defeating France first, then going against Russia. So they invade Belgium, and this causes Britain to enter the fray. Then it turns out the smallish force in Prussia whips the hell out of the Russians, and pretty much makes the Western Front a BIG mistake.

Something else though - the assassination of the Archduke caused everything from WWI to the rise of Hitler to the Cold War (since Germany sent Lenin into Russia). It's truly a turning point in history - one action that caused pretty much everything else since.
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Rufus T. Firefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Read up on the German cruiser "Emden."
It's truly a GREAT story. One ship wreaking havoc all over the Indian Ocean, while the British Navy couldn't find it. Until the end, of course. Truly inspiring, showing you that you can sometimes even find inspiration in the enemy.

A great book on the story: "Gentlemen of War - the Amazing Story of Captain Karl Von Müller and the SMS Emden."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Emden

"The cruise of the German light cruiser SMS Emden was among the most romanticised and notable incidents of World War I. In the latter half of 1914 Emden raided Allied shipping in the Indian Ocean, sinking or capturing thirty Allied merchant vessels and warships before being run aground by its captain to prevent it from sinking, after engaging HMAS Sydney at the Battle of Cocos."
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
19. That kaiser, what a sneaky fool.
I find the causes inevitable in 2 areas. 1, that germany was not the
modern state that frames the thinking of many persons on this thread
when discussing a nation not so nearly as cohesive as might appear.
He deliberately made wars to create the federal germany of today, and
arguably those actions lead towards ww1 like a clock... with the professional
militia which was also blamed, as it was viewed that a professional military
would act away from the interests of the common citizen/conscript. If that
critique is to be accepted, then it is just as valid today to modern forces.

There were rigid class boundaries at that time, and as marx points out, all
war is class war, ww1 being no different. The lower classes paid the price,
but, britain paid the price at the end of ww2, having bankrupted its treasury
to preserve its empire, it broke the country, and with that, the authority
of the wealthy to command any special respect for their chateau-thinking.
(ww1 is called the chateau wars, for the officers of both sides stayed in
fancy accomodation with fine foods sending orders to their cannon fodder
regiments in the trenches.

In that sense, world war 1 was the global birth of radical communism, and an
end to imperialism as hasn't been known since.

And if we make the historical faux-pas of ignoring the inter-war period, then
we call ww1 and ww2 as the same long war, causes, and forces interrelated
that the 2 wars are not really separable... the second was founded on the back
of wilsonian self determination introduced to europe by his not-so-wise self
in what has become a long history of american politicians making big mistakes
abroad with glib tongues, on the back of the mistakes in the far east with
the japan-russia wars and its settlement...

But they say the causes were mostly a world order of bilateral defense treatys
that 2 alliances of long-developed historical relations came to war over a long
blundering treaty domino fall... one we theoretically learned from in forming
the league of nations... to deal with international matters outside of this
bilateral form.

Who's fault? Karma.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
22. The monarchs and their governments - and the gullible people.
Lots of flag waving, bands playing, and strutting militarists all itching to play with their shiney new toys. And, of course "patriotism" for the masses soon to become cannon-fodder for the kings, politicians, and generals.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-06-06 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
24. Germany,
Quite frankly, all sides were at fault because everyone wanted the war (except, perhaps, Serbia). All sides saw it as an opportunity to grab more land, more colonies, and more of Europe. I blame Germany because they are unique in their role as escalators. Germany alone was in a position to confine the war to a regional conflict between the AH Empire and the Serbians, but chose instead to launch an invasion of the low countries and escalate it further. Germany could have ended WWI before it became a World War, but chose not to. When Austria called on their ally to back them up in their war, Germany SHOULD have politely declined, citing the injustice of the invasion. They could have taken the moral high ground by negotiating a new truce between their own ally, and the alliance of their enemies.

They didn't do any of that, which is why they share more of the blame than others.
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