I have a question about America that may ruffle feathers.

[baby_mouse]

It is this:

Why do some Americans seem to feel it so very, very important to believe that their country is BETTER than everyone else's?

It's always got to be the greatest, number one, numero uno, the head cheese, Big Bad-ass, the Man, Mr Big, the Godfather.

Why?

There seems to be a sort of desperate urge to cling like grim death to this view, such that even suggesting that America is perhaps ordinary in some respects, liable to suffer from political problems and rough spots as well as smooth spots in its history brings its citizens out in a sweat.

Apologies in advance if I ruffle feathers. This is not my intention. I've never met an American in person yet that I didn't like... I just don't get it.

[jedr]

1. ethnocentrism is universal;

it stems from ignorance of other cultures.

[Deja Q]

116. But as all things, a glib generalization is prejudice too

To cover everything under a wet blanket labeled "it's different therefore it's bad" is no different than the same label you're putting on ethnocentrists.

Besides, the corporate elite are using offshoring to discredit liberals' viewpoints of helping everyone else (people are blinded by low prices to think of the reality that they shall soon fall victim too) - much how * is using non-whites who are as much into PNAC as he is in positions of power. (Is power that alluring? I must be missing the obvious.)

[SharonAnn]

142. "American Exceptionalism". We're exceptional, We're different, etc.

We're totally nuts!

[Harper_is_Bush]

2. What nonsense....

Everyone knows CANADA is the greatest country in the world!!! :)

[stevedeshazer]

6. You are the future.

We are the past.

We were the greatest country at one time. Then along came Richard Nixon.

[Toots]

63. greatest in what capacity?

Because we had military might over Hitler? Because we have managed to be involved in a War every couple of decades. What IYO made America a Great Country and why are we no longer such a Country.

[stevedeshazer]

74. Science and technology

[Tigress DEM]

98. Your TAG line is like a ghost walking thru me! Shudder.

But we are no longer anywhere near the top on Science and Technology. We may have a very few of the very best, but other countries do a better job overall educating all their people to a higher standard in these areas.

(TAG line)

"What the Republicans need is 50 Jack Abramoffs. Then this becomes a different town," Grover Norquist, 1995.

[stevedeshazer]

129. I agree

That was then, this is now.

[nankerphelge]

7. Most of western Europe is better too

nt

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Oh, Canada!

I know that some of the nicest people in the world come from Canada....

[ddeclue]

23. Did somebody say O Canada??

English Lyrics:

O Canada! Our home and native land!
True patriot love in all thy sons command.
With glowing hearts we see thee rise,
The True North strong and free!
From far and wide, O Canada,
We stand on guard for thee.
God keep our land glorious and free!
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.

French Lyrics:

Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix;
Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur de foi trempée
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits;
Protégera nos foyers et nos droits.


:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

[northerdar]

92. yes, Canada indeed is greater country than the USA

and probably in the world. I am a dual citizen, American and Canadian. American by birth and Canadian by choice. I came to Canada in 1969 due to Viet Nam at age 21.
Growing up in the USA I found that geography was mostly of the USA, just glancing at the other countries in the world. I believe I learned to love history through Walt Disney's tv shows. Davy Crockett, Daniel Boon, etc were portrayed as great American heroes.

I favored Geography, History and English in high school and was in the top part of my class of 330.

I soon found out that I was very lacking in my knowledge of the world when I came to Toronto. I was pretty surprised to find skyscrapers when I expected to see wooden sidewalks and Sargent Preston, the RCMP officer and his dog King on the streets. Toronto is a little United Nations. It is called the Little Apple. I grew to meet other immigrants from other lands and hear about their countries and cultures. CANADA has multi culturaism and this promotes tolerance when the citizens are throughout the year have events to go to and find about the other countries in the world.

Canada also is well known for its PEACE KEEPING ARMED FORCES. It didn't join the Americans in Viet Nam. Thanks to Trudeau and that is how I ended up in Canada. Canada supported the first Gulf War and is in Afghanistan, Bosnia. I was so proud that Canada did not go into this current unjust Iraq invasion that W has put the USA in. I am constantly amazed at my American friends and family who know nothing about Canada, Iraq or any other country.

Why are American's so unknowing about other countries. I think the US government likes it that way.
The comparison I give of America and Canada is like a father and mother. Fathers tend to believe children need to take care of themselves as an adult and mothers will always want to take care of their children, no matter how old they are. America is a "Survival of the fittest and richest" mentality and Canada's is nurturing and caring, eg: National medical care is a Canadian right. So come to Canada if those borders look like they will be closed. It's not a perfect country but we don't accept corruption so readily as Americans. Our current national election is a perfect example of that.

[GaYellowDawg]

3. It's a GREAT question. The answer is, I don't know.

Your question is about a legitimate phenomenon. The real dark side of believing that America is the best is the idea that America can do no wrong. Another consequence is the idea that America has nothing to learn from the way that other nations do things.

[babylonsister]

4. I don't believe my country is 'better', but

for it to be so piss poor in world opinion really bugs me. I am a part of that because I'm an American, but my government embarrasses me and has proven to be very dangerous.
At this point I would accept 'ordinary'.

[Raydawg1234]

128. Hey lets remember to separate the people from the leadership in washington

People around the world don't like the American leadership,
But I don't think they hate the American people as much. And they love our culture.
American culture (movies,music,etc.) is king around the world.

[sweetheart]

5. people are tribal

The genetic instinct of a tribe is to defend itself from all
other tribes in all ways. In a primitive world, this is to
defeat them all with military weapons and feel superior... short
of that, it is to pretend the facility and to move on to the
supoerior feelings. ;-)

[baby_mouse]

11. Do you observe that America is MORE tribal, then?

I do think that nationalism in the States seems to be far, far more intense than elsewhere.

I wondered if there were historical reasons.

[crispini]

13. Geography.

In Europe, you're a short train or plane ride away from lots of other language and culture. We're not.

[baby_mouse]

18. Yes, I suppose Europeans travel more...

Also all that nasty warfare.

I just was kinda hoping that the European experience of nationalism had made such a very obvious point about how bad it is in the history books that America would simply have absorbed that instead of having to go through the same awful "machines" that basically destroyed Europe's world influence in the 20th century.

[lakemonster11]

131. Exactly.

I grew up traveling all over the US. If I had traveled the same distances but started, say, in Athens, I would have traveled all over Europe and Asia, visiting many countries and experiencing their languages and cultures. As it was, I never traveled outside the US and Canada until I studied abroad in college. That's not to say that various regions in the US aren't culturally unique to a certain extent, but they are all American.

So, to answer your question: Our geography is the reason that we are more ethnocentric than other places. It's basically inevitable in a country this size that stretches "from sea to shining sea" with borders touching only two other countries, one of which speaks the same language as us.

[sweetheart]

31. my honest response

I don't accept that any population on the planet is born special, so that
would place the 5.5% of the world's population that lives in the US equal
opportunity to be as bonkers as anywhere else.

If mass media were benign, i doubt that we would really have this, but it
is not. It is media that pushes nationalism, and the reason they do it is
that it works!.. just as milosovich, hitler, stalin, mao or bush. The issue
is not the existance of rotten eggs in evey culture, but the media climate that
functions like a virtual terraine. In some cases, the terraine supports
intelligent life; cities are built; people realize they are equal free
citizens on the earth, protect their environemtn and wish for the well being
of all others..... but only in a good terrain.

Most political terrain's are so paranoid that a mass media oligopoly actually
dictates and controls public opinion through newspaers, news(?) TV and whatnot.
The biases of this spin are different for every terrain. This would explain
why some might see americana as *more* tribal, just whatever the mass media
reports will eventually be reflected back by the populace-mirror.

Frankly, you ought to meet a scottish person who believes, like many yanks,
that scotland is the best country on earth, and this belief is founded on a
similarly nationalist media model that supports the american illusion... yet
when the facts are challenged, we see a typical republican response of deviance
on discovering the brain=washing being tested.

the US has no corner on tribalism... and frankly, as long as people focus on future
and their current lives, the long term roots of systemic tribal strife will not
take roots.... (boy is THAT optimistic... i'll have another one of those desserts
please and goodnight fine sir) :-)

[baby_mouse]

45. Thank you for your fine response

And your point regarding Scottish nationalism is well-taken... although I haven't run into any of those irritating bastards for some time and was rather hoping they were on the way out.

I agree with your assessment, and take some hope from it.

How nice it would be to watch a television program containing the Americans I have actually met... such a contrast it would be to the current image...

[sweetheart]

61. slante

I get my mouses mixed up and did not realize i was chatting
with a scottish one... so sorry if that "you ought to meet"
comment was surly.

The highlands, as i've come to observe, absorb the fringe
nutty elements of society, myself no exception. Many
persons who move to the far north move to get away from
the central belt, but some move because they associate the
central belt with "labour", and from their highland glens
to recover their "identity".

And i see this so much, that persons associate their identity
to their clan tartain, and draw reassurance from their
genetic soup. But then i look for the highlanders... and
the few real ones i've met are nationalist because devolution
is crap government, one without real power or just enough
to pacify the nationalists. Heck, they can't even get the
A9 to a double carriageway, one of the backbone routes of
the highlands, where inverness is booming as the highland
capital, but they can't get competent enough to connect
to it with a safe road.

So whilst i love the rugged highlands, some of the darkest
nationalism in britain lurks in those cute little white croft
houses. Loads of queen-w0rshippnig english and wannabes from
all over the world buzz in to the highlands to play some golf
and see the castle Mey. This creates pockets of UK english
nationalism as well, and i've not met a highlander who is not
a republican. But due to the party problem, the only way to
be a republican is to be an SNP and join up with the dodgey,
a party that doesn't have a problem with national socialism.

But isn't that the UK pretty much from top to bottom, like
a grape vine, where all the roads and transit are like the
vine, and each pocket, each neighborhood a separate grape, one
with a 1000 years separate history and lots of localism
aka little britain... 11 oclock show's old "are you LOCAL?"

The deadweight of this systemic localism is not the egalitarian
culture most americans are familiar with, but a much more
insular and (like kansas), rural, poorer, with not so coherent
political views on how to run new york city, or how to
address geopolitical economic change.

[radio4progressives]

118. Scottish Fiddler here....

Through out the '90's i became immersed with learning Scottish Fiddle, and through the natural course of that kind of experience, one picks up a little bit of history regarding the Scottish migrations finding their way to Cape Breton, the Appalacians, and New Zealand, and the cultural impact that has had in these various regions.

Not a lot of people in the United States are acquainted with traditional Scottish music other than what is generally associated with the Highland pipes, which is associated with a deeply ingrained nationalism that has taken hold all over this country - vis a vis Scottish Games, parades and so on.

There are a huge number of Scottish Games in this country - it was interesting for me to observe the number of Clan's booths - and the communities they represent are extremely right wing conservative and militaristic - not many, but a *few* people i've seen attend these events were actually Klans men. (KKK).

Just reporting a few observations - the ties to nationalism, and other rather reationary social attitudes still puzzle me.

despite the rather significant U.S. population of American citizens who claim Scottish "genes", know very little about the conditions that brought these people here in the first place, one and two hundred years ago.

Many of these very people have armed themselves and "marched off" to the "front lines" of the U.S. Mexico border to fight their self declared war on "illegal aliens".

We are in very troubling, deeply disturbing and dangerous times in this country.

[sweetheart]

125. The legacy of those highland clearances

When visitors come to the highlands, they often comment how empty and wild the land is,
how few people live there. But this is not an accident but a deliberate result of
an ethnic cleansing 200 years ago. The independence of the highland clans to the
rest of britain, was not acceptable to the power brokers down south (read "monarchy").

The highland peoples, because of peat, were completely self sufficient, however poor
the hard life was, it was under the foot of no bossman, and nobody could take away
your home... welll so they thought.

These land barons and their cronys set about burning the houses of the common people,
driving them off the fertile land to areas that were barren, so those "lazy" scots
would get to work real jobs and become dependent on the man down south. This mass
cleansing filled the ships from scotland to everywhere on earth, with persons who's
landright was stolen by the aristocracy.

Subsequently, scottish law was adjusted to be extremely pro-tenent, that a tentant,
cannot be driven out of their home at the whim of a landlord. Pretty much at all.
The people who remained after the clearances were lost of their "pround" independent
heritage. Scots nationalists love to drum up hatred of england over this, but that
misses the point that the same social engineering that created the clearances 200
years ago, now creates a new sort of similar economic disenfranchisement that
the king bush can plunge 5 million people in to poverty, drive them off their
secure citizens footing, just like the clearances, but using different means.

The KLAN stuff is big in the highlands. I've heard persons brag about the fact
that the "Klan" comes from highland "clans", surely those abused immigrants who
took their abuse to another generation(s)... as these same scots were forming plantations
in the south, and planters in ireland as well... diaspora everywhere using teh same
tyranny done to them, in another land to another people.

And, it has purchased a long strife in Northern ireland that, a long strife in the
americas with slavery and the ongoing nightmare of that racism today. It has
purchased the same racism in australia as well, as these white racists took the
concept of a pure clan bloodline to the wrong place. And it is no suprise
at all, knowing this, that the Scottish nationalists were sympathetic to the
nazis during ww2. I don't think people realize the greater picture, due to the
untold history of racism... and then they can whitewash all that and enjoy some
bagpipes, tossing the caber and a bit of the highland fling... praying that the
ghosts of yesterday stay in the ground.

[whatelseisnew]

152. Reminds me of the abusive husband

who works a job he hates, where he is just another grunt, comes home, where he is king, to abuse his wife and children.

[salin]

62. nationalism spikes at different times in nation's histories

we are being stoked currently, and frankly have been since the coldwar. Some other countries have been dealt some humbling experiences, which takes a wee bit of the arrogance out. We are in a long period of "American Exceptionalism" the belief that we are somehow exceptional over others and thus can do more (good and bad) than others. However, I do not think that in the long eye of history this is unique to the US nor that the degree is less than that of others at other points in time.

[Xithras]

29. Exactly, tribalism is instinctual and is found in all nations.

Humans, and many other mammals, have pack instincts that makes us want to form groups and divide ourselves off from others. Psychology 101 stuff here. When we eliminated tribes, we formed nation-states to segment ourselves. When those merged, we divided into nations. In areas where nationalism has subsided or isn't prevalent, those divisions are usually redrawn along political, regional, racial, or historical lines. It's the reason that nations exist, and the reason that street gangs exist.

We want to feel that we're better than others, smarter than others, have better "things" or "ways" than others. We want to feel "different".

[punpirate]

8. Because we're taught that from a very early age...

... peruse some of textbooks in the public schools and you get that drift.

Part of that notion is a nationalism cultivated by a host of institutions--media, government, corporations--so that when the US does something truly egregious, the citizens will all say, well, we did it because we're right (we have to be right because we're #1). Yeah, it's a very circular logic, but, then, militarism, nationalism, theocratism, etc., aren't borne of logic.

If we think of ourselves as better than anyone else, that superficially excuses a lot of bad behavior.

Cheers.

[yknot]

89. They start drilling the American Myth into your head from the get-go

Rabid nationalism relies on inflated national pride

[Hosnon]

119. Yep that's it. American Democracy and Capitalism are quite amazing but

the infallibility of both is DRILLED into us from day one...

So that's where we get it.

And it doesn't hurt that America always seems to come out on top - even if it is just the luck of the dice.

[Oversea Visitor]

9. It use to be

Now sadly US losing it.
Maybe people cant let go of the good time
Maybe they want the good time but dont know how to get it back expect saying loud.

Bottomline they not facing reality not seeing the danger hence not able to correct it.

You got work hard to be number one.
Like bush say its hard work hard work.

And the US world ranking keep on falling.
So bush Hard Work boy..... when you going to start doing some work.?

[JAbuchan08]

10. "Destroy the world to save America" is their basic philosophy

never mind that its completely paradoxical.

[Cleita]

12. We were all raised with this.

We are just the biggest and baddest, yadda,yadda,yadda.

Many of us do see the truth around us as we mature. Unfortunately many don't. There was also the time that the American dollar could buy a lot more overseas. So even if you lived in a trailer in America and lived hand-to-mouth, if you found yourself in a foreign country with American dollars, you could live like a Roman emperor, or at least buy a lot of things.

This did nothing for our humility. I think with the Euro and now the Bushistas, all this is going to change.

[I Have A Dream]

14. I'd guess that many people at DU don't feel that way.

I love my country, but I'm certainly aware of its flaws. Many Americans are as you described even in reference to their city's sports teams even though there are usually no local people on the teams.

I've DEFINITELY met many American people that I don't like. (Almost always conservative people who want to force their beliefs on others.)

B* said today that the US economy is the envy of the world. Yeah right! :eyes: This was said to get the very people that you described back to supporting him without question.

I think that your observation is very legitimate.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. I feel embarrassed when Americans act this way

I recall that when I was growing up in the '50s, they talked about how superior we were to everyone else. And I saw segregated schools, inequality for women in regards to equal pay for equal work, and a criminal justice system that wasn't always just. So I sort of dumped that concept pretty early on. As my brother said after his second tour in Viet Nam, when he was really disgusted with the pols and generals running things, the best thing about our country is the Constitution-because it can be amended and that things could be changed here without resorting to violence. For his sake, mine, and everyone in the world, I hope that we can continue to change our country peacefully.

Why do so many Americans feel the need to say we are the best? I'm not really sure.

[tenshi816]

84. I've referred to this in another post on this thread,

the question you ask of why do so many Americans feel the need to say we are the best. I believe it's because American children hear it from the time they're old enough to comprehend language and since most Americans don't travel much outside the country, they don't know otherwise. Some people just can't get their heads around the idea that other people might feel the same way about their countries.

Off-topic, every time I see one of your posts I make a mental note to myself to tell you how much I like your username but then I never do. Now I have.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

111. How very kind of you!

to say that about my username.

I think you may have a point about travel. But then I have only been to Canada myself, and I don't share that insular attitude. I think it is because I was raised on a university campus and was around people from different countries from an early age.

[tenshi816]

113. To be raised on a university campus

would have been my idea of heaven when I was growing up!

Back to your username, I'm being nosy here because it intrigues me so: what does ayeshahaqqiqa mean? If I'm being too nosy, I'm sorry - I'm just really curious, and I apologize in advance so please don't smack me down too hard if I'm being intrusive. Boy, that really sounds clumsy on my part, doesn't it? :hi:

[Catherine Vincent]

17. I don't think that.

Never did.

[QC]

19. It probably goes back to the Puritans,

who saw their settlement as "a light unto the world." They hoped to create an ideal society in New England, far from the corruption and sinfulness of the old country. That's one theory, at least.

There's a term for the belief you cite: "American exceptionalism." Lots has been written about it--look around and you can find lots of theories.

[ddeclue]

20. I've lived in and travelled to a lot of countries (18 on 5 continents)

for almost 8 years out of my 39 years and I've never yet heard one of the locals say "our country sucks" or "we're #2, we're #2"

so Americans have titanic egos, but so do the French and the Russians and the English and the Chinese and many other places.

[baby_mouse]

22. Okay.

It seems to be on the wane in Scotland, then, this tendency... Perhaps getting a parliament made it a little difficult to blame England for everything, as was the case in the past.

I don't doubt at all that you speak from your experience.

The Russian, Chinese, French and English titanic egoes... were they right wing? :-)

[ddeclue]

32. I don't think it's political.. I think it's psychological.

A big part of our identity is national in nature: I'm an American, I'm Scottish or even regional: I'm a Southerner or I'm a Floridian, or as we see in Iraq: I'm Shiite or I'm a Suni, or I'm a Kurd.

We are all indoctrinated in the ways of "our tribe" as some people have put it, from birth and this runs from language, to history, to culture, to religion, even to jokes. And of course, nobody wants to say "we're the tribe that sucks, you don't want to belong to us".

It's very hard to step outside this cultural or national identity and see yourself as others see you or to see something from someone else's point of view.

I grew up in a military family and my father was stationed in Germany and we travelled Europe extensively on vacation, so unlike many Americans, I haven't led such a provincial, insular life.

My own career as an engineer has taken me around the United States and also overseas to Argentina and also to Korea and has resulted in me working with Englishmen, Austrailians, and Canadians as well.

Unfortunately there are plenty of what we call "yahoos" in America who have never left their state and don't even read about it or keep up with the news and when they DO leave and travel abroad create the embarassing appearance you just described of the arrogant "ugly" American who does both his hosts and his own nation a disservice by his arrogance and ignorance.

Apparently 59 million of these yahoos elected George W. Bush, king of the yahoos last November.

The remaining 241,000,000 Americans want to say to the world: We are truly sorry and we're trying to fix the situation. Please stand by as we seem to be experiencing some technical difficulties, we hope to have it all straightened out sometime between January 21, 2007 and January 21 of 2009...

:shrug:

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[tenshi816]

81. Good assessment.

Don't you also think it has something to do with most American kids having that "we're no. 1" notion drilled into their heads almost from birth? When you combine that with the fact that, as you rightly point out, so many people never travel outside their own state let alone visit another country, you end up with a bunch of people who believe they're "No. 1" because they've never been around anyone who told them differently. They see America as the center of the universe because no one has ever said no, it's not.

I've debated whether to include a personal anecdote for the purpose of illustration and decided what the hell, here it is: I moved permanently to England in 1986, something that horrified my mother because she simply couldn't understand why I would do something like that. In her mind, I might as well have been moving to another planet. She was (and pretty much remained for the rest of her life) convinced that the entire world outside the USA was "second world" at best, and that anyone who could would desert their own country in a heartbeat if it meant they could live in America. The idea that people of other nationalities might prefer their own country to the United States was incomprehensible to her.

Anyway, Mom came to visit for Christmas that year and I, mindful of the fact that she'd never left the States, sent her a letter giving her detailed instructions about getting a passport, getting to the international departure terminal at Atlanta airport, making sure she had at least some UK currency and so on. Not rocket science, and at the time my mother wasn't old either - she was only 53. She was travelling with my step-aunt and I figured between them they would just about be OK.

How wrong I was. They were fine getting passports and actually getting through customs and into the UK. However, my mother steadfastly refused to believe that other countries wouldn't accept US dollars and didn't bother changing any money. When she and my step-aunt boarded a bus to take them to their hotel in London, they tried to pay with dollars and the driver threw them (and their luggage) off the bus. They had to go back into the airport at Heathrow and get some UK currency. Now, you'd think most people would be at least a little humbled by such an experience, but not my mother. She was absolutely furious because as far as she was concerned (having heard it her entire life), America was "No. 1" and other countries should be honored to take American greenbacks without having to change them into that country's currency.

Pretty awful, right? Maybe my mother was an extreme case, but unfortunately I'm convinced there are a lot of people like her, who cling to the comforting idea that America is No. 1 because nothing in their worldview challenges that concept.

Sadly, I can imagine Dubya behaving in a similar fashion to my mother.

[northerdar]

108. My family is just like your mom

They really feel that America is number one. Could not understand why I did not want to move back from Canada to the good ole USA. One of my reasons is the Intolerance of many Americans of different people and customs.

When they visited me and my family, they all made fun of Canadian money, Canadian slang (eh). They amazed that Toronto was a smaller version of NYC. The postcards they sent back was that Canada is so clean. LOL. They were amazed that they could walk down the street at night in a big city and not be afraid.

Several times my brother in different trips left his things in stores or the transit system...All those times his things were there when he went to get them after hours or days later. He was astounded.

Now they hate me and Canada because of the stand I and Canada have taken on Iraq. Two of my brothers never served in the military. One typed with two fingers as a Marine in a Washington DC office during his two years of service, never leaving the country. They are couch potato patriots. None of their children have served in the military. The one brother who served in the Marines threatened to shoot me if he saw me. Obviously I have no contact with them now. I do check on my mother, who has told me in her own words she chooses to be ignorant of what W. Bush does. You choose your friends, your family you are stuck with.

[radio4progressives]

120. Hey Doug D... we were neighbors!

Georgia and North Carolina -- Scottish, Southern Military heritage, but travelor too - uninsulated - what you say about the insulated impact of those in the south who never been anywhere else or seen anything else is so true.

in the 60's it was mandatory for us to know every single battle fought in the Civil war, not just dates, but strategies too, names of generals of course and wins and losses. But the history of reconstruction was another matter, entirely skewed from the point of view of victimized plantations owner and towns people... anyway, it taught as if it had just ended the year before.

[PassingFair]

21. Ignorance. Plain and Simple.

Was talking to a woman from Sweden (her husband was transferred to Michigan)at my daughter's basketball game. We were with a couple of other parents. She was talking about how excited she was that her husband's "tour of duty" here was almost over, and she could return home.

One of the other Moms said "Why". She LITERALLY COULD NOT UNDERSTAND why anyone would want to live anywhere else. Swedish woman tried to explain about the national health, standard of living, less crime, parental leave, etc. The American mom thought everyone comes here like Ellis Island refugees. For real. It was pathetic. And some of the other parents were educated that night, too.

[baby_mouse]

27. Did they appreciate or reject this education?

What was her view of the Outer World? Did she have a clear one?

I don't think she's unique, BTW, there are some very uninformed people here in Scotland, too.

[PassingFair]

83. Surprisingly, I think they appreciated the education!

They LITERALLY had never thought about it before. They assumed that beyond our borders (and Canada) are pretty much "huddled masses" just DYING to emigrate to America.

By the way, BabyMouse, my father was from Aberdeen! I still have relatives I visit in Scotland and England, but the one's closest to me have moved to Austrailia....

[babylonsister]

30. That 'other (American) mom' is ignorant, but there are

lots of Americans who travel that are not that disallusioned.
She couldn't understand why anyone would want to live elsewhere? Has she ever been anywhere else?:eyes:

[PassingFair]

82. No, neither she nor her husband had ever been beyond

...Canada.
But they were very jingoistic about America. I have known hundreds of people like them. They are nice people, but insular and they believe that the standard of living here is light years ahead of other countries. They don't watch foreign movies, they don't eat foreign foods.

[Gregorian]

24. It's where people come to escape. And there's a Constitution.

People ran from tyrants. They came to a bright and shining idea called America. And often they came with conservative ideals. Or they were shiested into believing the republicans. But that's another story. The Constitution is why it's mecca for the haunted.


And you couldn't ruffle my feathers. I dislike most Americans. And for the very reason you post. I always felt Europe was far superior in every way. But it's not easy to just leave everything one knows. Although, it is in my future, once my parents are no longer with us.

[dapper]

25. UP USA!

Just kidding.

I guess it's patriotic, it's pride. Unfortunately, Bush has crush our independence and pride.

Dap

[Patsy Stone]

26. We're #1!!!

Doesn't anyone in Scotland think Scotland is the best? In reading your post, I think I see what you're asking, but I think you're saying a lot of things that don't necessarily follow to make the point.

Every nation should feel a sense of national pride. I think you'll agree. Are we louder and brasher about ours? Maybe, maybe not. Don't the Aussies love Australia? In "some Americans", sure it's louder and brasher than others. It's splashed on the back of trucks and across the schools and on tattoos. These folks have a name. We call them Rednecks. :) Some people just love the thought of the way the system of government was constructed and realize the benefits of that system over other systems of goverment. Some just say things that they think people should say or want to hear.

Anyone, American or not, who knows the history of how the country was born realizes we're a bratty upstart who got really lucky and made it to the big time. We sat back and got fat and lazy until the Civil War, and we didn't really care about WWII until Pearl Harbor. Then we had to go and kick ass. Since the French would be speaking German if it wasn't for the Americans, that fueled the egotism. The bomb, as horrible as it was, sealed the fact in the minds of most Americans at the time that we were number one. Up until recently, the rest of the world sorta agreed for whatever reason they chose: land, freedom, easy money, gold, Hollywood, whatever.

Recently, however, things haven't been so great here. Basically we're a flashy young buck out to strut on a Saturday night. We're just being led by a blind drunk man.

[baby_mouse]

34. I fear that you and I disagree.

Doesn't anyone in Scotland think Scotland is the best?

Oh yes. But they are fewer and fewer every day.

Nationalism is completely illogical to me. I am half-English and half-Scottish. When I was growing up, Scottish people wouldn't accept me as Scottish and English people wouldn't accept me as English. So *I* can't really have a lot of faith in nationalism, as the concept itself had no place for me in its plans.

Why should I be proud of being *born* somewhere? How can I take pride in something that I didn't build? I had no choice in being Scottish. It's not something I object to, certainly, to my eyes it is certainly the most beautiful country in the world, and Edinburgh, my home city, is the most beautiful city in the world, but Scotland as a whole is ridden also with dreadful flaws, appalling nihilism and drunken violence, the most unhealthy citizenry in Europe, an almost uncontrollable problem with hard drugs... It amazes me when I walk around my country to think that all the natural beauty of Scotland, Scottish history and architecture has given rise to all these drug users and criminals. Not a terribly rational connection, I suppose...

However, Scottish people seem to be changing a little. Since the introduction of the parliament, which has become a bone of extreme contention among the very aggressive and contentious Scottish (it gets tiring, all that snapping and grinding of teeth) there appears to be less interest in blaming England for everything, which is a good thing as now the populace seem more interested in the value of Scotland on its own merits rather than somehow being England's "opposite".

Nationalism is almost gone in Scotland. Being half-English and half-Scottish, I like this.

Every nation should feel a sense of national pride. I think you'll agree.

I don't, at all. I think every nation should have a sense of national *awareness*. Pride is a blinding force, it smears and blurs the facts. Only the seperation of fact from bias can lead any of us from any nation towards the truth, which we must all face if we are to follow any plans for the future.

It's this phrase, American Dream, that scares me. Dreaming is what you do when you're asleep.

I prefer plans to dreams.

Just my 2c.

[Patsy Stone]

59. I don't fear that we disagree.

That's what this place is for. :)

The American Dream is not a sinister nationalist tool. It means that anyone (even a half-English, half-Scottish, anti-nationalist) could, if they choose, come to America and live as they chose to live, worship as they want and make all the money they're free to make. The American Dream is to do better than your parents, to own a home, to provide for your children. To go to the school of your choice. It stems from the initial settlers and the Puritan ethic that with hard work anything is possible. What is was, what it is and what it will be will evolve as time progresses.

Pride in what one has accomplished is not always a blinding force, and I'm not sure what you mean by a "national awareness". If the French want to be proud that they make wines judged to be the best in the world, what's wrong with that? If the Greeks want to be proud of the birth of knowledge, what's wrong with that? I'm proud we gave the world Frank Sinatra. That doesn't cloud my view of our current foreign policy.

It also seems that nationalism comes from within to a large degree. In my mind, you are fortunate to have two nationalities from which to choose. You have two rich and colorful histories to ingest and understand and dissect and relate to (or not -- and go find another). People born in America and people who immigrate to America can love this place and be proud of it regardless of what the country does for them. In some cases (like the Cubans) it's enough to touch dry land and then try and make your way however you can. On the other hand, some Americans who were born here feel the government should do everything for them. It's tough to generalize.

Finally, from your response it seems your OP should have questioned why national pride exists anywhere, and not why some Americans think we're the best even in the face of this disastrous and evil administration.

My question to you would be: Do you feel the US has a greater responsibility to the world than other countries? If we do, then could it be that greater responsibility which could cause some of us to believe it's because we're bigger and badder?

ed: clarity

[baby_mouse]

155. Thought provoking response.

"The American Dream is not a sinister nationalist tool. It means that anyone (even a half-English, half-Scottish, anti-nationalist) could, if they choose, come to America and live as they chose to live, worship as they want and make all the money they're free to make. The American Dream is to do better than your parents, to own a home, to provide for your children. To go to the school of your choice. It stems from the initial settlers and the Puritan ethic that with hard work anything is possible. What is was, what it is and what it will be will evolve as time progresses."

Oh. I don't think the American Dream is necessarily *sinister*. Sorry, I was perhaps being a little hyperbolic.

I think the ideology behind the dream is entirely sensible but firstly I don't think it's really all that peculiar to America to have such ideology and secondly I don't see why that ideology is a "dream". It's the *phrase* I find odd, not what it's supposed to mean.

I have 2 reactions about this paragraph, one of which is cynical and the other of which is more optimistic.

CYNICAL: If it were called something like "the American Approach" or "The United States Stance" it would make more sense to me. It's this "dreaminess" that's weird. It makes it sound like some distant mysterious thing and the things you point out it means aren't distant or mysterious to me, really, or out of my reach, not where *I* live, in Britain. Also Germany and most of the other European Western Democracies desire and promote these things, as does New Zealand and Australia, and Canada. No? In fact, growing up in Britain it was a given that these things were simply true. They weren't really put on a sort of pedestal a they seem to be across the pond. (Don't get me wrong, maybe they *should* be...I don't know. I suppose I just feel that somehow that always gives these things the appearance of being out of reach and before you now it some guy has stepped in between you and the pedestal and is charging you $5:00 to look at it.... call me cynical...)

MIND YOU: Having said that I grew up the 80s when Britain was being well Americanised... the unspoken, accepted and unchallanged class system prevalent before then certainly didn't help anything...

UNSURE: In fact, I think it should really be called, the "American Approach." Or something like that. America is certainly seen by itself and some other countries as the hub of this "dream", and I this may well be the case... I don't live there so I can't tell. Bits of its legislation seem to run *completely* counter to the Dream.

CYNICISM: Living as one chooses to live isn't that difficult outside obviously dictatorial systems (like Singapore with it's insanely strict legal system. Still, I know some people who say they want to go and live there, so they *would* be living as they chose to live, under a system that protects them very strongly against crime...not what *I* want, of course...). And doing better than your parents and sending your children to the school of your choice isn't something I know much about in terms of statistics, certainly, I couldn't compare the States with other countries on that. But I'm assuming it costs money in the States? In which case it's like the public-or-private school system in most other Western Democracies.

OPTIMISM: Still, certainly the influence of the American Dream (as ideology rather than strange phrase) has been felt across the world, and it would be silly to suppose that this wasn't brought about by America leading by example, for which much, much kudos is due. It has helped a lot of liberal minds across the world to see that their dreams, which are very often pretty far out of their reach, to go for it. Its things like gay rights and women's liberation and freedom to worship rather than the more ordinary desire to get on without interference that you mention, I think. Persecution on the grounds of religion hasn't been nearly as widespread a problem worldwide as it was in the past for some time, I think (outside the current conflict between Islam and Christianity, of course), and I wonder how much of this is in a large part due to the tolerance of Americans for diversity. I don't know, as the wars in Europe sparked by religious differences are numerous and pepper European history but I can't speak regarding elsewhere in the world and, through ignorance, can't match up the appearance of America on the world stage very *clearly* (i.e. in terms of an obvious mandate for such policy emergent in earlier political systems clearly motivated by American example) with the emergence of tolerance and liberal politics, although it seems to me that there must be such a relationship. It is good to remember that many people all over the world have been aiming for these things for many thousands of years...

It used to annoy me that Americans seemed to want to claim unique credit for *believing* that these ideologies were necessary and drawing an invisible boundary round America and claiming that everyone else outside was less free and so inferior. I was furious with two American women on a Randi-style show who claimed that America was the first democracy! Experience of real Americans faciliated a more rounded view...

"Pride in what one has accomplished is not always a blinding force, and I'm not sure what you mean by a "national awareness". If the French want to be proud that they make wines judged to be the best in the world, what's wrong with that? If the Greeks want to be proud of the birth of knowledge, what's wrong with that? I'm proud we gave the world Frank Sinatra. That doesn't cloud my view of our current foreign policy."

Quite so, I agree. Bravo Frank! And Cindy Lauper! And Jim Henson! And Bob Hope! And Steven Speilberg! etc, etc... Many kudos to the States for its long-standing love affair with FABULOUSNESS! (Seriously. Before the States the world was a bunch of miserable gits.)

You're right, it's not *always* a blinding force. I suppose I believe that the larger the group you're proud to be a part of is the more likely the pride is to carry with it "little brother" ideas like racism. I think I read somewhere that you can't convince a group above three hundred members to go with peer pressure and have to resort to gross symbolism (which leads to unrealistic self-worth, arrogance and useless, timewasting confrontations... gaaah! Am I a bit anal?)... pop science, I'm sure, but it rings bells with me. Also, individual effort on my behalf should add to the group goal before I am proud of any venture I undertake with a group. If I'm in a city block that runs a famous festival but don't volunteer for it or help out I might enjoy it immensely and take a *distant* pride in introducing a friend to it, but would start to feel very silly if called upon to defend it's merits against another festival, for example. (These are easy examples, I live in Edinburgh and it's full of this sort of thing.) But there you go. I'm naturally quite... inclusive.

"It also seems that nationalism comes from within to a large degree. In my mind, you are fortunate to have two nationalities from which to choose. You have two rich and colorful histories to ingest and understand and dissect and relate to (or not -- and go find another). People born in America and people who immigrate to America can love this place and be proud of it regardless of what the country does for them. In some cases (like the Cubans) it's enough to touch dry land and then try and make your way however you can. On the other hand, some Americans who were born here feel the government should do everything for them. It's tough to generalize."

Yeah, this is the bit that makes me worry, because pride for me is something that I attach very firmly to *me* and what I've done. Unless I've given some kind of hands on work to make something the way it is rather than just pitch up somewhere and join in I'd have a hard time saying I was *proud* of it. I might say I was delighted with it or very pleased with it or that its (in some more objective sense) the best version of whatever it was ever, even, but not *proud*. Pride is something I've always asociated with the *self* with the *ego*. It's the meaning of the word, to me, that places it outside my use in describing my love of Scotland. Also, to be proud of something, as far as I've always used the word, it has to be better than somwthing else, and since I was very young I've thought it most peculiar to think of something as complex and full of paradoxes and peculiarities as *one person* being better than someone else and so have found the idea of comparing entire nations of *millions of people* being better than other nations proportionately even stranger.

"Finally, from your response it seems your OP should have questioned why national pride exists anywhere, and not why some Americans think we're the best even in the face of this disastrous and evil administration."

Well, perhaps. When posting I was addressing a view I have of America as being very *driven* by nationalsm, somewhat unusually so in comparison even with other nationalistic populations. It's the American flag behind Principal Skinner's desk in the Simpsons (an odd thing to have flags in a school, to my European sensibilities), the fact that a Scottish friend of my sister who (during her brief stint as a supply teacher in the States) asked children to place American flags on the ground during a break in a pageant she was organising only to be told that to do so was a traitor's act, that sort of thing. There have been a lot of replies to my original question saying that nationalism is endemic, and that's true, but it does not look to me like other nationalists have the same level of fear and disgust when their nationism is challenged. Scottish Nationalists mostly just get annoyed, but there's never this sense of *desperation* that I perceive in some (and it's only some) American nationalsists. Also nationalism is considered to be something of an anomaly elsewhere in the world in general (even though it certainly exists) and in the States it seems clearly understood to be almost a moral *necessity*. It's *mainstream*. No?

There never seems to be this understanding that nationalism has also given rise to dreadful consequences elsewhere in the world, like Japan, germany, Italy and so on, so I can only assume that the most nationalist of Americans think that those countries were just self-deluded and *their* country is the special case that really *IS* better than every other country. Which to me is just weird.

"My question to you would be: Do you feel the US has a greater responsibility to the world than other countries? If we do, then could it be that greater responsibility which could cause some of us to believe it's because we're bigger and badder?"

Why should America have an extra responsibility to the World? I think all human beings have basic responsibilities to other human beings.

I think a lot of the criticism aimed at the States over the past few decades comes from a general percption that the States has been shirking it's percieved *ordinary* responsibilities as a Western Democracy, Kyoto, for example (that's not a good example, really as some people would expect a bigger effort on the part of the States as its industrial infrastructure produces proportionately more greenhouse gases. It's unfair, that one, as the States has a very good green record in other areas, particularly in it's own localities).

No, I don't see why America should have any particular responsibility to the World beyond that which it feels is due to the *humans* of the World from it's own conscience as a nation of other humans. In fact, I would be pleased to see a shift in the psyche of the *global* populace from the percieved weights of an imaginary responsibilities to nations to a genuine desire on behalf of all citizens of the world to better their own lives and those of all other citizens, forgetting the intricacies of previous slights and favours...

I would hope that that would, um, speed up the transition of the world from a bunch of *lumps* of inefficiently pseudostreamlined nationalists arguing over national neuroses into a properly inclusive semi-anarchic system of... what shall we call it...tender helpfulness?

But then, I'm a bit of an old hippy, really. :-) :-) :-) :-)

Never mind. Maybe one day, eh? A bit tilting-at-windmills, that last paragraph...

A most challenging post! Thank you!

All the best,

:7

BM

[Karenina]

156. You've obviously though about this a bit...

So I ask your forgiveness for my curt ex-pat summary, as one who could no longer bear the LIE of the "American Dream"...

What the hell is wrong with the Amis?

Take one part patriarchy and one part white supremacy.
Smother with the manure of denial and myths of inherent "goodness."
Sprinkle with water from the 2 oceanic boundaries.
Cover with the towel of propaganda.

VOILA!

[Patsy Stone]

160. (blush) Why, thank you...

First, hyperbole is my life, no need to apologize. :)

That was a very interesting post and I think I may miss some of the points I want to make, so please bear with me.

On the phrase "American Dream": I understand what you're saying and I have two points.

First, it was a peculiar theory at the time and it is still, unfortunately, just a dream for some (MLK's I Have a Dream speech showed we weren't there yet in the 60s). It comes from the words in the Declaration of Independence (from the UK, btw, where apparently this was not the case at the time -- thus making these guys feel they needed to spell it out), "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by God, Creator, with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."

At the time, not only was this not the way it was in the world (kings ran countries, the poor had no choice but to be poor, people who didn't believe as the state believed, were ostracized or killed as heretics, etc.), but it wasn't the way it was here yet either. It was a dream for the future of how things should be going forward.

Second, the phrase itself was coined by a writer: "The term was first used by James Truslow Adams in his book The Epic of America which was written in 1931. He states: "The American Dream is "that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement. It is a difficult dream for the European upper classes to interpret adequately, and too many of us ourselves have grown weary and mistrustful of it. It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position." (p.214-215)

Also, remember, things weren't so great here in 1931. :) Since then, however, money has certainly become a more common idea associated with the America Dream.

"It used to annoy me that Americans seemed to want to claim unique credit for *believing* that these ideologies were necessary and drawing an invisible boundary round America and claiming that everyone else outside was less free and so inferior."

Noooo, we Democrats believe that's what makes us great and we want everyone to come and joint the festivities. It's our opposite number who don't want the new guys. :)

Nationalism can absolutely lead to disaster, don't get me wrong. Our nationalism, in part, however, stems from the fact that we're a big diverse group of mutts and misfits who can rarely agree on anything, leaving little room for the danger of a Nazi-like assimilation or rampant Japanese conformity. Racism, bigotry, all the other bad things we do are, I think, due to poor education, fear of the different, and just the fact that there are so many damn many of us that there are bound to be a few rotten apples.

Sometimes those rotten apples even end up being president.

It seems like forever ago to me, but once upon a time we would have signed the Kyoto, or done the right thing, but the current administration is a bit too corrupt (and they have the possibility of living their own version of the American Dream by reaping huge oil profits) for that to happen right now. The Supreme Court gave W the presidency and I've been just sick about it since it happened. Then the black boxes made all John Kerry's votes go away and, so, we've got the same guy in the White House. I can't apologize enough. We'll be back to make it better soon.

[AngryAmish]

121. If it's not Scottish, it's crap!

[PsN2Wind]

28. Maybe I'm a nationalist

but I believe that during and immediately after World War Two we were the greatest. I'm no historian but I can't think of another country that after being the prime force in the defeat of one nation (Japan) and a very large factor in the defeat of another (Germany) set about asking their tax-payers for the funds to rebuild those defeated nations.
Admittedly it's been downhill since but where would Europe be, even now, had there been no Marshall Plan?

[acmejack]

33. Manifest destiny!

[baby_mouse]

52. ???

What IS "manifest destiny"? How is it different from any other form of destiny?

[acmejack]

65. Here is a blurb that explains it

Manifest Destiny is a phrase that expressed the belief that the United States had a divinely inspired mission to expand, spreading its form of democracy and freedom. Originally a political catch phrase of the nineteenth century, Manifest Destiny eventually became a standard historical term, often used as a synonym for the territorial expansion of the United States across North America towards the Pacific Ocean.

Manifest Destiny was always a general idea rather than a specific policy. In addition to expansionism, the term also encompassed notions of American exceptionalism, Romantic nationalism, and a belief in the natural superiority of what was then called the "Anglo-Saxon race". While many writers focus primarily upon American expansionism when discussing Manifest Destiny, others see in the term a broader expression of a belief in America's "mission" in the world, which has meant different things to different people over the years. This variety of possible meanings was summed up by Ernest Lee Tuveson, who wrote: "A vast complex of ideas, policies, and actions is comprehended under the phrase 'Manifest Destiny.' They are not, as we should expect, all compatible, nor do they come from any one source."<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

[G_j]

163. the justification of genocide against the Indians

and the exact same mindset that permeates foreign policy, in full manifestation under Bush.

[pitohui]

35. well let me ask you a question?

don't you secretly believe your country the best in the world simply because, let's face it, it had the good taste to have YOU born there?

ok, i cheated, i clicked your profile and saw you were from scotland, which prob. is the best country in the world

we all have our petty local pride, it seems "louder" coming from usa because we own hollywood and the film industry and so our noise gets trumpeted further afield than usual

but doesn't everyone secretly think their home the best, or at least that it would be the best if only a few problems were worked out?

[baby_mouse]

38. Not at all! Scotland's a bleak, violent hell-hole. But very pretty...

Trust me, I know.

There are dreadful drug problems and random violence everywhere. People piss in the streets when they're drunk, and vomit. They spray graffitti on national monuments. The Scottish are an unusually badly behaved people.

However, having been elsewhere, I must say that I do think Scotland is the most *beautiful* country I've seen. But that could just be because I've been imprinting on it since I was 2.

:-)

Also, I love Edinburgh, my home town, more than any other city in the world. There's really nowhere like it. And again, it's the physical beauty that that I miss most, when I'm away...

Although I have to say there appear to be places in the States that *look* just as good. San Francisco appeals to me muchly, a most attractive looking town.

I couldn't leave Scotland now, I've lived here too long and would miss it terribly, but that's because it's my home, not because it's *objectively* better than anywhere else. It's the "best" country for *me*.

:-)

[pitohui]

47. how's that any different from new orleans?

There are dreadful drug problems and random violence everywhere. People piss in the streets when they're drunk, and vomit. They spray graffitti on national monuments. The Scottish are an unusually badly behaved people.


hell, isn't every people like that really?

[NuttyFluffers]

158. i know that we have our share of badly behaved people in SF, too

drugs, random violence, pissing and vomiting in the streets, graffiti... pretty much the same ol', same ol' the world over. it just depends where you go in a city. even tokyo has its shadier parts.

but i wonder how bad it is in edinburgh and london? probably not all that different. maybe a bit more fighting than shooting, but meh, it's not like you get a beating at every corner for every day you are there, right?

[KingCantona]

73. I Love Manchester....

I understand what you say about loving where you come from, I believe that most people are indeed proud of their home town, with you it's Edinburgh and with me it's Manchester but I have also visited San Franciso and that used to be my favourite other city, but a couple of years ago I visited Stockholm and I liked that more...:)...

Incidentally despite living in the North of England I have only visited Scotland once, that was to see United play Dundee United in 1984, I've been to Ireland lots of times though.....:D.....

[tenshi816]

86. With me it's Yorkshire,

and beyond that the north of England generally - and I'm an American. I love my country, and my home state but I love my adopted country too so much that I still get a little excited when I come back after being away. This is why I hate jingoism and the "my country is better than yours" mentality, because we can hold more than one place as "home" in our hearts and it doesn't diminish any of them.

Agree with you about Stockholm! It's a fine place, isn't it?

[Arugula Latte]

101. Hi KingCantona!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: :hi:

P.S. I used to life in San Francisco ... wonderful town ...

[DemBones DemBones]

39. Everyone thinks their country is the best, except for

those stupid politicians/ the stupid government that they like to complain about.

[alfredo]

36. America is an adolescent boy. Until we mature, we will act like a

teenager. Right now as a nation we are car surfing. Maybe we will survive this phase, let's hope we get smart before we get thrown under the wheels.

[leftofthedial]

37. because we can kick your ass

that's why

[baby_mouse]

41. "And in a flash I saw him plain"

- H.G Wells "War of the Worlds".

Thank you. In an unexpected turn of events, your post, given its context, has lead to a somewhat unrelatable insight...

I have been put in touch with my "inner American"...

[leftofthedial]

42. yeah, well don't make me do it again

[liberaltrucker]

40. As an American-from Alabama, no less

I was taught from childhood that the USA is numero uno. Fortunately, I grew up. Alas, many of my countrypersons didn't. My job takes me to Canada 4 or 5 times a year. I always rejoice when that Ontario , Quebec(although the French road signs are confusing), or New Brunswick load is assigned.

[SPKrazy]

43. Because We Are!

:sarcasm:

I think really it can be traced back to a long lost sense of true patriotism (not phony patriotism, jingoism spouted by the right)

You know, back when we really fought wars for things like our independence, and to "make the world safe for democracy", things like that.

Freeps use it to justify their illegal, immoral wars for oil, calling it "freedom".

Does this make some sense?

I guess I'm saying I think it can be traced back in history when America was a fledgling democracy in the world and through the big wars.

[SmokingJacket]

44. We are taught from a young age that America is "special"

Especially people of certain generations -- I'm not sure if kids today are taught that. But we sang these incredibly sentimental patriotic songs and learned about the amazing feat of the Patriots tossing out the Redcoats, the ride of Paul Revere, the Pilgrims -- all of it like a religious text. I was an adult before I learned about the massacre at Wounded Knee, etc. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, but I think the version of history we were taught was very much influenced by the Rally Round the Flag days of World War 2.

And to be honest, I still think our Constitution is pretty damn good. And I still love the idea of America: the open-armed democracy filled with people of different nations all with the same opportunity. Of course, reality is very, very far from this ideal. Perhaps some people don't see reality -- would find reality too painful. Falling back on the Norman Rockwell cliche is much more comfortable.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberaltrucker]

48. Welcome to DU....

....I think:dilemma:

[FlaGranny]

55. Obsequious, hmmm?

Interesting choice of name.

I wish I shared the belief we are the best country in the world. You see I had to go without medical care because I couldn't afford insurance until I was old enough for Medicare. The only other countries where that happens are third world countries.

It's hard to feel we are a good people when we have such corrupt, larcenous and warmongering leaders. It's hard to feel like the best when our infrastructure is falling to pieces around us. It's hard to feel like the best when the survival rate of infants is way down on the list when compared to most other industrial countries. I could go on and on. There is very little that is "best" other than in some people's deluded minds. Good compared to a few places, yes, but far from best.

I remember a couple of weeks ago, one of our European DU members exclaimed in shock, "You mean you have to PAY for an ambulance?"

[Name removed]

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[SidDithers]

75. Ever lived anywhere else?...nt

Sid

[ObSeeKweeUs]

134. Yes....n/t

[nicknameless]

140. I see. "Love it or leave it."

Enjoy your stay.

[Name removed]

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[Spazito]

77. LOL, you ARE being ironic, right?

"We can look out into the world and SEE these good principles in action; we believe we are the best country on earth because objective measure tells us that it's true."

Global polls, objectively, tell a very different story but you KNEW that, right?

[Name removed]

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[Spazito]

141. LOL, then on what do you base your comment re "objective measure"?

The "mirror, mirror, on the wall" measure? Internal U.S. polls? Re padding the polls call on DU, those are internet polls that mean squat other than for fun and curiosity, the international, UN ones, on the other hand, are not. Vast difference between the two.

Edited to correct typo.

[tenshi816]

91. "the best individual/civil rights

for our citizens that can be humanly conceived"? Good God. I guess that whole spying on American citizens without warrants thing just passed you by, didn't it? How about the Patriot Act? Ever heard of it?

Have you ever lived in another country? If not, then how can you say something as silly as "we believe we are the best country on earth because objective measure tells us that it's true". "Objective measure" by whom?

I love America, but my quality of life is much higher now that I don't live there anymore. For one big thing, I don't have to worry about medical care or spending a fortune to put my kids through university. I don't worry about the government coming into my home while I'm not there or having my phone tapped (unless it's the American government doing the tapping).

"If we did not feel we WERE good people, then we would be basing our values on some other ethics, values, and principles." Well, that's just naive. Just because you "feel" you're good doesn't mean that it's so. The Germans under Hitler thought they were being good people too, and we know how well that turned out for them.

Are you sure you meant to come to Democratic Underground?

Edited for clarity.

[Lorien]

99. Excellent response tenshi816

it's painfully obvious that the poster has lead an incredibly insulted life. Having traveled to many of the world's great cities-including Paris, London, Geneva, Vienna, and yes, Edinburgh (among others)- it's quite easy to observe that many immigrants from the far corners of the globe risked their lives to move to THOSE cities because they believed them to be the best in the world.

Every country has it's pros and cons. Ours unfortunately now has neo-cons, which have turned it into a "formally great nation". :-(

[Name removed]

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[Arugula Latte]

103. Hey ObSeeKweeUs:

How do you think the tens of thousands of Iraqis that the United States blew apart for NO GOOD REASON are enjoying their civil rights? Well, silly me, the dead ones can't enjoy it, but how about those maimed and blinded babies, children, and adults? Think they're waving the red, white and blue, wishing they could be a part of a country that murdered their fellow citizens for oil and corporate control?

If you are so certain we're "good people" doing good things why don't you enlist in the military and go to Iraq?

[Name removed]

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[Arugula Latte]

143. Why should your age stand in the way of you spreading "civil rights"?

You think the Americans spread sunshine whereever they go, apparently. Have you ever heard of Vietnam? Agent Orange? Pinochet? El Salvador? Do you think it is okay to turn a blind eye to American atrocities and then trumpet rightwing propaganda?

[Name removed]

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[Orangepeel]

49. American culture is very competitive

as a society, we tend to value competition, entrepreneurship, winning, monetary success. It might have something to do with the whole scrappy immigrant, horatio alger mystique that has been taught and reinforced by society over time.

[Clara T]

50. A deep patriarchal fantastical

mythology has been fed to the Americans for centuries. The need for a (founding) father figure is one aspect. it is truly a disturbing phenomena and rather psycopathetic when you consider that same father figure (America) is abusing HIS children in a thousand different ways, like piling up weapons while they go hungry.

Here's an interesting excerpt from an interesting article;
Perhaps the only one way to understand fascism in America today is to trace its historical development there over the last century. "History, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived. But if we rise up to meet it head-on, then history need not be re-lived. When we as a people fail, or worse yet, refuse to stand up to the injustice of historical past, then that injustice becomes an ever-present constant in our daily lives." - Cia Bannar, film maker and human rights activist.

According to the matrix, powerful men of wealth who controlled America in colonial days, were replaced after the revolution by genuinely democratic representatives of the people. Every American school-child is taught that the fifty five "Founding Fathers" prepared a solid foundation of democracy upon which the Great Republic was built, and that Abraham Lincoln's stirring Gettysburg address on "government of the people, by the people, for the people" meant what it said.

'Red pill' reality is very different, however as Richard K. Moore writes <3>: "The legislatures, unfortunately, mostly appointed their delegates from among their local wealthy elite. The delegates then ensconced themselves in secret session and proceeded to betray the charter under which they had been assembled. They discarded the Articles, and began debating and drafting a wholly new document, one that transferred sovereignty to a relatively strong central government. The delegates reneged on the States that had sent them, and took it upon themselves to speak directly for "We the People". Thus begins the preamble to their Constitution. In effect they accomplished a coup d'etat. They managed to design a system that would enable existing elites to continue to run the affairs of the new nation, as they had before under the Crown, under a Constitution that for all the world seems to embody sound democratic principles. The system was consciously designed to facilitate elite rule and that is how it has functioned ever since."

http://thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Neo-fascism_America.html

[baby_mouse]

51. Ahhhhhhh....

Thank you...

[Hello_Kitty]

53. Resting on past laurels

The Revolution and our Constitution (pretty fricking amazing you have to admit), recovering from a massive Civil War, WW2, space exploration, the proliferation our popular culture, I could go on and on...At the same time we have definitely done some pretty reprehensible things to our indigenous peoples and those in other lands. But our schools and our leaders fill our heads with notions of American infallibility. I can tell you, as a product of the public school system, and later the military, the idea the my beloved country could be engaged in less-than-savory foreign policy activities was a bitter pill to swallow.

However, I love America, warts and all, and I am committed to helping return her to the place of respect and esteem that she should occupy. I personally don't care if we are never again the biggest, baddest, richest country in the world. I want us to be the smartest, most ethical, and most democratic nation. I don't want to force democracy on other countries at the barrel of a gun. I want us to set an example for them to follow.

We can do this. I believe in America. Let's take her back!!

[FlaGranny]

54. Must be the same mindset

that allows the belief that the local team (of whatever sport) is the best. Some folks will punch you in the nose if you badmouth their team. Anyone raised in the city knows that the kids on his block were better than the kids on the next block.

[radio4progressives]

56. That's ok.. I'm American and I don't get it either...

well i do... all that tripe is essential in order to build and strengthen the required level of nationalism in order to succeed with the Global Empire mission. i know that's rather simplistic, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it... ;(

[RagingInMiami]

58. It's drilled into our heads from an early age

Those of us who had the advantage of traveling and living abroad learned things they never taught us in school.

[tenshi816]

97. Moving abroad turned my head around,

and in a good way. Until then I had never truly realized how much the USA is perceived as a bully throughout the world. I'm a far better person for having such a reality check.

[otohara]

60. Bush Has Dispelled Any

thoughts I had about how great this country is/was. My head is no longer in the sand about how dangerous our foreign policy has been for many, many years.

[B Calm]

64. It's been since the Kennedy era that we had a reason to be proud.

This country no longer has visionaries!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer said it. And, he was right.

[depakid]

67. Goes back a long way-

Probably to notions of American exceptionalism that De Toqueville observed in the 1830's and the expansionist Manifest Destiny of the 1940's (which was preceded by a depression that drove many people west).

Today, I think it's sustained and reinforced due to a rather profound ethnocenticism among a large portion of the population. Most have never travelled abroad- and even most who do never stay long enough or interact in enough depth to understand how people live, what their jobs are like, what their goverment benefits are, etc.

Because of their ignorance (and that's really all you can call it) they're prone to a sort of irrational nationalism, based on what they've heard repeated thousands of times, over and over.

Greatest country in the world. Richest country in the world. Since they don't have any basis for comparison, they don't know any better.

[Douglas Carpenter]

68. I think that has been the pattern of all empires

The British, The French, I'm sure the Spanish at earlier times and I'm sure the Romans at an earlier time still.

It creates a kind of insularity that makes hegemony appear justifiable to the citizens of the empire country to the extent they have any idea of what is going on in their name.

Immoral wars did not begin with the Bush Administration nor did they begin with the United States.

In fairness though I would have to say that pre-American empire (pre-Word War II) that attitude probably derived from a visibly vastly improved standard of living that the majority of immigrants experienced. I'm sure for many it must have seemed like the fulfillment of a millennial dream.

[trixie]

69. It is the current climate.

The current administration (as well as Reagan etc) like to create a climate of patriotism. The first stop on the fascism bus is your local conservative Christian group - those who are well trained to follow. Without a climate of patriotism one can't successfully stomp as one wishes over foreign lands.

[mainer]

70. Blame it on high school sports

Every single high school in America loves to scream "We're number one!" It's insane. As if coming from a high school with a great football team makes you any better than the kids with a losing football team.

I blame it on sports dads gone nuts.

[welshTerrier2]

71. separate the vision from the implementation

i have no problem with those who cherish the vision of America's founders and hold the ideals envisioned in the Constitution as a model for the rest of the world ...

the problem comes, however, when the "my country is the best" crowd fails to recognize how badly many of our political leaders have trashed the promise of America ... when the left criticizes the US, it's very important to distinguish between the vision and the implementation ...

[KingCantona]

72. Interesting Question

Now like you I have met many Americans who I like and very few that I don't like, I will be visiting the US again at least once this year and I feel that the only place where you find this inferiority complex is among right wing Americans, I generally don't associate with these right wing elements very much though...

If you cite any way that another country is better than the US and I would say that most of Europe has a much better health system than the US in terms of health service being free for all then you'll usually be met with a free flow of statistics that would seem to support their position that the US is the greatest country in the world...

They all tend to get their news from Fox News that has already been proven to misinform the viewers far more than any other news outlet but by and large (and here I refer to the ones who are untainted by this extreme right wing way of looking at the world) American people can see what the real situation is...

[Neil Lisst]

76. Almost every person in every country thinks that about their home.

But Americans generally don't know or care what people from other countries think. Plus, there's so much in media about the US as the sole superpower. It's a ridiculous statement. We can't even beat a small country with no military in the time WWII was fought and won.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. ALL nations have this problem

especially early on in their history... and the US is a very young ountry...

Moreover people take this with their mother's milk... serious

[hfojvt]

79. I cannot speak for every American

but I, at least, was taught this, and told this by parents, teachers, books, the Reader's Digest, songs, classmates, etc.

Maybe it's the "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" philosophy, as the one guy said "Always pretend that wherever you are is the best possible place to be."

And during the 1970s at least, we certainly were the richest, and by American values, that means the best. We may even still be the richest by measurement of per capita GDP, as well as by size of our economy.

[tlsmith1963]

80. I've Wondered the Same Thing

And I'm American. When people start up with that "We're No. 1" crap, it always embarasses me. It embarassed me in the '80s, & it does now. So even some Americans cringe at that type of behavior.

Tammy

[BooScout]

85. WWII.....

.....it may always have been that way in the States, but winning WWII bought it home to stay. The John Wayne movvies and the cowboys in white hats helped bring it along as well. Also, America never had Hitler and the Nazis on our doorstep like the UK did.

I think in Europe and in the UK that Nationalism is feared because of what people lived thru in WWII and the lessons they in turn taught their children. They vowed never again and with that pledge comes the sacrifice that no country is better. The message never got across the Atlantic to the States. Since America was never invaded by a nation grabbing enemy, they never feared Nationalsim as many in Europe do.

I know the "America is the greatest" mantra drove my husband nuts when he was living in the States.....when people found out he was British they culd never resist asking him what he thought about living in the greatest country on earth (and Liberals tout that mantra just as much as Conservatives IRL...what they say on DU is a lot different than what I know to happen up close and personally).

Personally, I think the greatest place on earth is wherever home is......whether it is Atlanta where I lived for most of my life or a small village in Wales where I'm living now. Countries don't impress me...but people do sometimes.:)

[tenshi816]

100. BooScout, the first time my mother met

my future husband was the first time she visited the UK. The very first thing she said to him after their initial hellos was "So, you've lived in both America and England, which do you prefer?"

Poor fiance, trying to be diplomatic, said "Well, I enjoyed living in Atlanta for two years but I'm happy being back home in the UK now."

Mom (seriously, she did say this): "I just can't believe that. No one would live anywhere other than America if they had a choice."

Me, at the time: wishing a hole would open up in the earth and swallow me.

[Greyhound]

102. There it is, perfect illustration of the attitude.

Believe it or not, some people think Kansas is the greatest place on earth. :shrug:

[Joe Chi Minh]

117. I think it's actually a British thing. How many times have I heard

British journalists asking a freigner what they thought of our such and such, whatever it was; so evidently fishing for a compliment it was embarrassing. And blow me down, I've heard Aussie journalists putting the same kinds of question to visitors. I can't imagine the French, Germans, Scandinavians, Spaniards, etc., so naively fishing for compliments. The French they KNOW they're great, anyway!

[Chalco]

87. Because we are naive adolescents.

We will be brought down. We are past our peak. In my opinion that's why * is fighting so hard and correspondingly why we are going down even faster.

[yurbud]

88. it has been reinforced to neutralize criticism at home and justify wars

No one can rig elections here--because we are the best democracy in the world!

Our war in Iraq can't be wrong--because at least we are exposing the Iraqis to the civilizing presence of Americans.

And so on...

[BlueEyedSon]

90. "if it's not Scottish, it's CRAP!"

Any questions?

[baby_mouse]

110. I get it.

It's all that Scottish ancestry...

[Odin2005]

93. WW2 absolutely trashed Europe...

...But the US mainland was never invaded. Europeans learned the lesson from WW2 that nationalism is dangerous, we didn't. Indeed, WW2 actually HELPED us by ending the Great Depression, and all those vets going to college after the war supercharged our economy while Europe was in shambles, starting Our "Golden Age" from 1945 to 1968

[Tigress DEM]

94. IMOP it is SINK or SWIM -- if we don't STRIVE for Greatness...

---- if we don't STRIVE for GREATNESS we get the mess we are in right now.

It doesn't mean other places aren't GREAT as well, it's just that you have to bring your best to the mix or you wind up with creeps like we have now running the country. It's like if you want to be in the Superbowl, you have to believe in yourself all the way and train all along for the crucial moments when it's up to you to do the best thing.

As in sports, if nations are all trying to put out their personal best then we all see a better result. Hopefully, nations are more about building a better world for the people they represent and therein USED to be where the US was in the mix challenging everyone to find a better way, but a good part of the US was overcome by apathy, burnout and preoccupation with our daily lives which superceded our committment to being a real world player in events.

I think the reason we are desperate to re-establish our greatness is because the ideals our country was built upon had made such a worldwide impact by sheer example of US just getting along and making our country work.

All this getting out into other nations and messing with their affairs isn't about being a great country, that's about dominance and I think they (the current administration and previous people in other administrations) may use "Democracy" to justify what they are doing, but here at home we would easily see that as a blatant lie - if we'd seen all of it.

So much of it was done in secret, with a compliant press glossing over it. I always believed because the press was there "doing it's job" that the US would always nip these problems in the bud. It looked like news.

I remember in the mid-90's when a friend of mine was telling me about other genocides as being usurped by the holocost and I didn't understand. I only knew of the one that Clinton didn't respond fast enough to at the time and I thought it had happened so fast, that we couldn't really have predicted/prevented it. Then I found out about so many more that I'd never heard of.

I had spent a lot of my 20's avoiding news because I'd get so depressed. For 3 days of the earthquake in California where those people were trapped in the two tiered bridge I was sucked into it entirely, just feeling my heart breaking and barely able to function. I'm tougher now, but I still get more upset than a lot of people I know. Sometimes I envy them. They can get out and do the right thing and keep fighting, but not feel the pain the way I do.

Anyway, more than anyone wanted to know.

[smoogatz]

95. Our jingoism springs from our fundamental insecurity.

Our nationhood is founded on genocide and slavery, and we still haven't really dealt with it.

[TygrBright]

139. dingdingdingding.... We have a winner!!

Faced with the reality of flaws, errors, and imperfections, human beings usually choose responses that fall into one of three categories:

1. Ignore them, pretend they never happened, build up a fantasy structure to justify them, or pretend that they are not, in fact, errors/flaws, etc., but rather meritorious actions/qualities, etc.

2. Withdraw into painful introspection, wallow in guilt, throw themselves into wishing/attempting to 'undo' the past, and otherwise become consumed by remorse that soon turns into damaging self-hatred and often (when it becomes intolerable) morphs into response #1 in sheer self-defense.

3. Acknowledge the flaws, errors, etc., express contrition and make whatever practical amends can be made without compounding the damage, analyze the reasons/roots of the problems, and set about overcoming or offsetting them.

The more horrible the errors are (especially when they are really heinous crimes like genocide and slavery,) the more extreme the responses tend to be.

Category three is rare, simply because it requires a great deal of energy, thought, and work... not to mention some self-transformation, which is appallingly difficult for many people. It's hard, and often very painful in the short run. Category two is also painful but it doesn't require nearly as much work. It has the extremely minor point in its favor that it sometimes helps alleviate (at least temporarily) the damage caused by the flaws/errors.

Category one is not EASY, precisely, since initially it requires a certain effort at self-delusion and reprogramming, but once that is accomplished it's not only easy to maintain but painless.

The natural human tendency (and a sound evolutionary strategy) is to avoid pain.

Any questions?

helpfully,
Bright

[baby_mouse]

153. It all sounds very frightening and upsetting.

Assuming your 3 categories are an accurate portrayal of an ordinary person's response to his or her own reprehensible (I hate using that word now) behaviour, and I think it's VERY accurate, actually, do you think (this thought is forming as I type) that engaging in long insulting rants against the American Right Wing (as I have done, many times, pretty intensely, on this very site) and contemptuous put-downs is the appropriate way to improve the situation if you are the sort of person who has recognised category three as the most sensible not only for you but also for other people, i.e. the very frightened and upset right wing pundits who are being asked, if you're correct (and I'm fairly certain you are), to cast away their very dreams?

I'm starting to feel a little guilty. And also angry with myself for feeling guilty and resentful of the possibility that the appropriate course of action is to forgive and educate them as this places me in the position of having to do their thinking for them while they insult me and my politics. Also, I think a substantial proportion of them have a sense that the education would force them to cast away their dreams so they quite *consciously* and *openly* fight it.

Of course, the Left has ALWAYS been VERY rude to the Right, in debate. The Right has also always been very rude to the Left, in debate. But then, the Right has a nasty habit of rounding up the Left and shooting its members. So, my sympathy for their fear is always somewhat tempered by contempt. Which is a nasty feeling I don't really want.

One of the most difficult things to oint ut to the Right is that it's not this neatly symmetrical see-saw thing where we all somehow ought to have a chance for our positions to be "in the right". This is a weird meme that infests them even worse than the American Exceptionalism. Of course, it's a mutating meme, when they actually have any power, that see-saw model disappears as a model they want to use, it's only ever a part of their canon (and it's usually subconcsious) when they're on the defensive. It expresses itself in peculiar ways... This "fair and balanced" thing that Fox do, for example...

Rambling, I know...

[TygrBright]

157. THAT way lies madness...

>>I'm starting to feel a little guilty. And also angry with myself for feeling guilty and resentful of the possibility that the appropriate course of action is to forgive and educate them as this places me in the position of having to do their thinking for them while they insult me and my politics.<<

In fact, that's not a category 3 response at all... closer to category 2, but with a touch of #1 as well. In the first place, you're assuming you have the "the truth" (which, even if you DO, puts you in a very dangerous place,) and secondly, you're assuming that someone (who?) assigned YOU the mission of "educating" them.

There is a crude, cynical, and not wholly accurate (or kind) aphorism that describes the primary flaw in this approach:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it only wastes your time and annoys the pig."

The older I get (I'm not THAT old, but let's say I have clear memories of the Kennedy Administration, good enough?) the more convinced I am that once physical maturity sets in and an individual regards themselves as "done with school" it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else to "educate" them unless/until they consciously make the decision to WANT to be educated. IOW, you get a new job and you have to learn X to keep it, you'll put yourself in "conscious learning" mode, and accept or even seek tuition from someone who has that knowledge.

This is not to say we stop learning--we don't. But it's a subtle process for most people. Rare are the individuals who regard life as one long continuous school and the world (and everything in it) as teachers. And they are even rarer among those who consider themselves to be possessed of some empirical "truth" in connection with politics, anthropology, sociology, etc. Once we give up on the didactic process (conscious learning,) we lapse into learning by experience and example. And not always very effectively then.

The Left has done its own share of rounding up and shooting, and the Left is just as prone as the Right is to suddenly "forget," once they achieve power, that there might be some validity, or at least some pragmatic value, in maintaining lines of communication and exchange with "them." Once you believe you have The Truth, and the mission to impose that truth upon others, you have taken the first steps on a long road that ends in a very, very ugly place.

Look, if I can go back for a minute to your initial question about why Americans believe in the superiority of America, let me point to a small kernel of wonderfulness that does give us some valid reason for the appreciation of our nation. A truly extraordinary thing happened about 250 years ago-- an odd confluence of many streams of human social development. The flowering of the Western Enlightenment reached the stage where philosophers were applying it to the principals of human community. Circumstances in Europe and Britain conspired to place in America a quite amazing group of individuals who were highly original thinkers, well-grounded in those Enlightenment philosophies, and then conspired again to give them a laboratory to apply that thought to nation-building.

If you examine the seminal documents that define American representative democracy and the social and political organization of the brand-new nation-- not just the Constitution, but the Federalist Papers, the writings of Jefferson and Adams, the correspondence of Franklin, the legacy of Washington-- you will find a astonishing mix of idealism and practicality. They were not blind to the imperfections of human nature and were fully aware of the fact that it was not possible to create an "ideal" state. They were fully aware of the costs that would eventually be exacted by the pragmatic compromises forced upon them to cobble together a new nation composed of such a very diverse, quarrelsome, and independent bunch of people.

Nevertheless, in the face of all of those imperfections, the looming costs, and the terrible compromises to their ideals, they persisted in putting together a framework that achieved one supremely important (and hitherto unachieved) goal-- to enable a heterogenous conglomeration of individuals with competing and conflicting interests and ideas to govern themselves, without recourse to the tyranny of a monarch bolstered by a hereditary aristocracy. Did it work well? Not very, no. It required terrible costs, including temporary tolerance of an economic model that perpetrated injustices as profound as any perpetrated by the monarchies that had (until then) been the norm.

But it did not depend on that economic model, and it did not require injustices and cruelties for its continued existence. It created effective tools for people to govern themselves WITHOUT recourse to tyranny and institutionalized injustice-- tools that had not existed in Western societies for literally thousands of years. Once it became clear that a nation founded on those principles could not only win its independence, but survive its own birthpangs (including a wrenching civil war) to integrate more and more of those tools into an economically and socially successful state, the horse was out of the barn. Humans know that it's possible, and many of us, all over the world, will never rest until self-governance without recourse to the tools of cruelty, tyranny, and injustice become the norm.

Give us that. We showed, however faultily and imperfectly, that it could be done. We gave philosophical and moral sustenance to others all over the world who were germinating the same ideas. We gave them something to point at, "see? People CAN govern themselves at least as well, if not better, than a King or Emperor..." The American Revolution took the catalysts from English and French and Spanish thinkers and proto-republicans and Enlightenment philosophers and turned them into a working model. They could never be ignored again, and the great movement of Britain's Parliament to a Constitutional system, which had until then developed with painful, bloody slowness, hit the straightaway and went into overdrive. The French tried out their own version. NONE of them have been perfect, but all of them have been an improvement, however small, on the top-down model. And America is part of that history in a unique way.

So there is a legitimate kernel of reason behind our hyperinflated orgy of nationalist self-congratulation, however destructive that orgy's effects might be.

The point of all of this is to tease out the core idea that put the tiger in the Founders' intellectual and philosophical tanks, metaphorically speaking: That self-governing societies work best when a broad base of ideas and values inform the political and social institutions of the state. We must forge our consensus around the ability to respect and accommodate different ideas and values. And ideologues of both the Right AND the Left are prone to forget this in their zeal to impose "truth."

This does not oblige us to stifle the expression of our beliefs, nor does it release us from the obligation to live in accordance with those beliefs (indeed, it binds us more firmly to do so-- you cannot have a successfully self-governing, pluralistic, heterogenous society composed of conformists and 'go along to get along'-ers.)

I have to take issue, too, with your characterization of rude exchanges between the Left and Right as "debate." As an old debater myself, I can tell you that nothing lost a debate team points faster or more mercilessly than the ad hominem argument. "Debate" is a dying, perhaps dead, art. True debate rests on a structure of mutually-agreed upon rules and values in which ideas, not people, are subjected to rigorous analysis, defense, attack, and evaluation, based on fact and logic. The cacophony of modern political and social discourse has nothing to do with debate, and bad manners, from Left OR Right, merely perpetuates itself and further degrades our ability to subject ideas to reliable test, and draw useful conclusions therefrom.

You don't want to feel contempt for those on the Right who seem to take relish in employing inferior, ad hominem, illogical defense of poorly-articulated ideas? Sound instinct. Giving in to the impulse to wallow in contempt for others exposes our own vulnerability-- what if someone else could feel contempt for ME? I must, therefore, make myself contempt-proof. In the pursuit of which goal, we become Bill O'Reilly or Pat Robertson or George W. Bush-- always right, and therefore evoking contempt even as we attempt to avoid it.

Contempt is for ideas, and when properly expressed, can be very effective. But the MOST effective expression of contempt for a bad idea is to demonstrate, by how we live, the good alternative to that bad idea. That, at least, gives those who hold onto the bad ideas a chance to learn by observation and example what they will emphatically reject if "educated" by "debate."

pompously (sorry)...
Bright

(edited to correct a really egregious typo...)

[Batgirl]

96. then, too, there's the fact that so many baby boomers

are but a generation or 2 removed from immigrants. Lots of us grew up hearing the family legend of how gramma/grampa came here to escape war, famine, poverty, etc. In the case of my maternal, Eastern European grandmother, she was left behind as a teenager and worked as an indentured servant for a time because the family couldn't afford to take everyone along to the new world. Her tales of stealing potatoes so her nieces wouldn't starve made quite an impression. Many of us heard these family stories from birth. I remember being very young and thinking how lucky I was to already live in a place that other people "escaped" to.

That effect is probably diluted with each passing generation though. It would be interesting to know if younger people are more, or less, nationalistic.

[Arugula Latte]

104. Geographic isolation and and abundance of resources

Have given many Americans the false illusion that "we're special and we'll always be special." Well, that's what all Empires think before they fall ...

[bicentennial_baby]

105. got me...i've never felt that way...

[Rich Hunt]

106. it's kind of silly

Of course, since my grandparents were immigrants and I still have ties to 'the old country',
I am a horrible traitor.

I love the U.S.A. for its diversity but also its indigenous cultures, I really do.

I just don't think it's necessary nor does it even make sense to tell yourself
the USA is so much better than other countries, which are more often
than not so much smaller.

[rpgamerd00d]

107. America is the worst country in the entire world

...except for all the others.

:D

(Bonus points if you realize where the original version of that quote comes from)

[rfkrfk]

109. the movie 'The Grapes of Wrath', was shocking to non-USA people

poor people have cars ... WTF?

[mitchum]

112. It's a pathetic and relentless attempt to deny the TRUE history of...

America.
A commercial venture built on genocide, slavery, theft, economic oppression, and imperialism.
The rest is just jingoistic bullshit.

[Fovea]

114. Because we only last on the average

three minutes in bed, are afraid of sex, and fear that we have a smaller than average penis.

Also, we believe that God watches us whack off, and disapproves of our fantasizing about hot bi babes.

[huskerlaw]

115. I think it goes back to

immigrants who came to America believing it truly was a better place. In some cases, that was true...mostly not. But either way, if you give up everything for the hope of a better life it's hard to give that ideal up.

[Angry Girl]

122. The real story today: America by the numbers....

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

America by the numbers
No. 1?

# The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (the New York Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
# The United States ranked 28th out of 40 countries in mathematical literacy (NYT, Dec. 12, 2004).
# Twenty percent of Americans think the sun orbits the earth. Seventeen percent believe the earth revolves around the sun once a day (The Week, Jan. 7, 2005).

continued...

http://www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp

[AngryAmish]

123. Korean, Australian, Scottish, Welsh, English, American,

Canadian, Chinese, Japanese, Pakistani, Indian

Those are the nationalities of folks I have met who think that their country is the best. It is endemic in human kind.

Why do Chinese people refer to their land as the "Inner Kingdom"? because anything that happens outside of the country really doesn't matter. Not to pick on the Chinese, but that is how people are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

124. This country SUCKS. After reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"

My eyes were wide OPEN. This country is NOT better or the greatest, number one, numero uno, the head cheese, Big Bad-ass, the Man, Mr Big, the Godfather. It simply isn't. No ruffled feathers here. :hi:

[LWolf]

126. It's a culture of competition,

of gaining status and self-esteem by being "better" than the rest. A culture that sees put-downs as a valid way to claim superiority.

[Jade Fox]

127. It's a substitute for self-esteem.....

Take a close look at those who hold that view: Do they have much going for them as people?

Rah-rah patriotism is basically free self-esteem. You don't have to work hard for it, or have talent, or behave in a moral manner.
All you have to do is be born, and you can say, "I'm great because I'm an ______".

It used to be that patriotism had a price: you were expected to go off and die for your country if you were called on. The Chickenhawks have effectively eliminated that, and it's brought some real creeps out of the holes.

[1620rock]

130. ...You know,

...the last time I really felt that USA #1 stuff was 37 years ago when we landed on the moon!
Now I am so ashamed to be an American..I will NOT fly the American flag until this nation fixes it's self. (In fact I fly the Canadian flag to piss off my loony RW neighbors.) :7

[renie408]

132. Tunnelvision + Isolationism + Ignorance = Extreme Nationalism

Our kids are not taught about other parts of the world, other cultures, other religions, etc. They get a glossy, simplified version of American History and very little World History these days. Hell, most kids think that 'Civics' means a multitude of Honda cars.

I don't *think* educated Americans go around with that rah-rah mentality.

[thespiritualzebra]

133. The Last Best Hope of WoMankind

Where did that saying come from?

I'm Australian and what I love about the US is the 60's cultural revolutions, the comedies, the Apollo program and the communications technology; the music, the novelty and the big-assed brashness.

I'm not a crime-movie or tv-drama buff though - the fun of being raped with the latest cinematography wore off. Would someone please apologise for movies like Seven and prime-time crime TV.

Anyway I came to admire John Kerry in your election campaign but cringed when he said you are the last, best hope of humanity. I mean the best hope of humankind might be a chinese baby. It's not like an advanced alien race beams 'bestness' rays into brains born on US territory. And this *last hope* business: Armageddon hasn't happened yet and the big A isn't supposed to be the end anyway.

Now maybe your Constitution is the best model. And there's nothing wrong with light-hearted 'We're number 1'-ness as long as it doesn't turn into a soccer riot.

Another point is that people will always have a special place in their hearts for the women or men of the culture they pubescized in.

PS. The aesthetic of your political symbols and government buildings is fascinating. I even like those spirals behind the Senators when they talk - so senatey.

[skids]

150. Seems associated with Lincoln, popularized by Battlestar Galactica.

If you're just referring to the "the last, best hope" part.

[tlsmith1963]

161. I Thought That Was From Babylon 5

You know, "The last, best hope for peace".

Geez, we need B5 right now...

Tammy

[skids]

162. Oh, right you are! n/t

[Kaylee]

146. Of course you are going to think the home team is the best!

It's human nature.

[Clara T]

147. We prefer pretty lies to the ugly truth

You want information? No problem. This is, after all, the Information Age.

However, this is most definitely not The Age of Truth. When it comes to meaningful issues, the things that really matter, people prefer to be fed palatable illusions for the duration of their lives. I have to think hard to find a few people I have known who genuinely and regularly tried to challenge their worldview. Who wants to discover, at the age of forty, that some foundational belief they’ve held all their life is ... wrong?

I grew up believing all the typical things about my country. That America was the world’s land of "freedom." That America’s wars were all just. That people naturally seek truth and freedom.

Most Americans still tell themselves these things. How many people really want to know what their society is doing? Who wants to put the pieces together and question whether the entire social and economic structure of ... well ... our civilization is not only suicidal (increasingly, a few of us are figuring that one out) but also immoral?

That the shallowness and emptiness of American culture is itself largely to blame for the horrific and apparently widespread instances of torture of (innocent) foreign civilians? That the constant spread of faux-grand mansions in our never-ending suburban sprawl (complete with double-wide driveway and SUV) is an affront and assault on what was once a beautiful natural world? That by dropping our kids off in daycare or even many (most) of our public schools, we abdicate the job of parenting? That by spending our entire lives deluged with poisonous advertising and commercial culture, our commitment to things has outweighed our commitment to people?

http://keyholepublishing.com/We_hate_truth.htm

[No Exit]

149. Some of us were disabused of that notion a long time ago.

[wickerwoman]

151. I think it actually comes from an inferiority complex.

In my experience, this attitude is clung to most desperately by those who have never travelled or done very much with their lives. It may be a lack of money or a lack of interest. They get defensive talking to people with a broader range of experience than theirs so they claim they haven't travelled because their corner of the world is the best. It's not even America is the best, it's my part of America is the best, or my town is the best (if they've never travelled out of it)- hence all the northerner/southerner kerfluffle. And I don't think it's a coincidence that southerners, who on average are poorer, less cosmopolitan and less widely travelled than northerners, are more likely to feel a strong sense of pride in their geographical point of origin. When was the last time you met someone exhibiting fierce pride over the fact that they come from Seattle or Providence or Albany?

Politicians echo this because they know it appeals to the poor. I don't think most politicians genuinely feel that America is the greatest country- it's all rhetoric.

There are great things about America, but I doubt anyone who has travelled extensively would still claim that it is the number one, numero uno, etc. (as if there were any meaningful way to determine this.)

[Fla Dem]

154. For a young country (relatively speaking) we have come a long

way. The European Continent, the Middle-East and Asia have been around a long, long, time. They were constantly feuding and fighting. There were class systems, brutal monarchies, tribes, and dictators. Yes they created many wonderful things in the arts, sciences and humanities. But America was the land where many of the down trodden have come to for a better way of life.

We have our share of dark episodes; the abuse of the Native Americans, slavery, Japanese interment, women suffrage, sweat shops etc. But in the whole, we have also accomplished so much and have led the world in so many things. Because we are a diverse nation of many faiths, nationalities, cultures and histories, American became our identity.

We do feel pride in our fledgling country. Much the same way students and alumni feel pride and cheer for their schools. It's ours. We take pride in it and we want to excel. We have a strong competitive spirit.

This is not the only country that at times displays arrogance, or feels they are above the rest. Australian's pride of their country (again, another one built on the backs of the downtrodden and outcasts) is well known. England for years and many of the ruling class still see America as uncouth, and below them. France also thinks we are beneath them. Asians feel we are not equal to them in many ways.

At the Olympics you'll see every other country yelling and screaming that their country is #1. In our case we're just a little bigger and a little louder.

[Giant Robot]

159. I disagree that this is a USA thing

I think, like other posters have said, that this is as old as people are, and probably found outside of the US as well. This is standard us versus them thinking. We create our own in-groups to to identify ourselves and create our own identities, safety, and boundaries, and also identify the out-group as being less desirable for about the same reasons. This is fairly common, and probably close to a cultural universal in some ways.

I like what others have said about our geography limiting us in some regards too. I can see how not having contact with many other cultures would certainly exacerbate that us vs. them mentality. One good way to overcome that type of thinking is education and interaction with the other culture or out-group. But I also see our own cultural mythology playing a part of it as well. There is a lot in our history and mythology that adds to that as well, i.e. "Land of the free, home of the brave." So that gets pounded into us from the get go and certainly adds to the ethnocentrism.