The No Fly Watch List

[Eric J in MN]

I'm not completely against the idea of a No Fly Watch List.

If there is a valid reaon to suspect someone is planning to blow up a plane, but the authorities don't want to arrest him yet because they are learning about his accomplices through surveillence, then he should be on a list where he is more thoroughly searched for explosives.

But people on the list should be able to find out why, and to have their names removed if there is no valid reason. (If they want to make exceptions for non-US citizens and to delay informing people by six months in case they are on the verge of exposing accomplices, that might be reasonable.)

The federal government shouldn't be able to put a US citizen on the "No Fly Watch List," and never tell him why. Should he be told six months after he files for that information, a year later, two years? That is debatable, but a citizen seeking that information should be told eventually.

The "No Fly Watch List" can have a chilling effect on free speech. People don't know if engaging in dissent can put them on the list, or what is going on. Every government power need to be subject to checks-and-balances.

« The Best Way to Protect Against Hijackings »

They should re-model planes to include a bathroom at the front for the pilots, and completely seal off the front of the plane. This would make hijackings of a flight-in-progress extremely difficult. Currently, the cockpit doors are opened whenever a pilot needs to pee. Sealing off the front of the plane would do much more for security than the "No Fly Watch List."


From http://www.speakspeak.org/speak-blog/2006/01/07/welcome-to-the-no-fly-watch-list/

[Daphne08]

1. "The federal government shouldn't be able

to put a US citizen on the No Fly Watch List, and never tell him why."

I agree! These are the tactics of the former USSR, for heaven's sake.

I don't understand why Americans cannot see this.

[Eric J in MN]

2. There is a lawsuit by the ACLU.

Maybe that will help.
http://www.aclu.org//safefree/discrim/17470prs20040406.html

[Eric J in MN]

3. kick

kick

[DefenseLawyer]

4. There is a difference

between being on the No Fly List and your NAME being on the No Fly List. There aren't all that many people on the list, people that when properly identified can't board a flight. My name happens to be on the No Fly List. It doesn't keep me from flying, it just means I have the hassle of having to go to the counter and show my id to confirm that I am not the bad guy they are looking for (through a mysterious phone call to Big Brother somewhere) and then I go on my way. Personally I don't know how accurate the list is or how effective it is in thwarting terrorists, but a lot of the stories you hear about- Sen. Kennedy or some 4 year old or me, aren't kept from flying, just sent to the counter for a few minutes. Now if it turns out that people are actually being put on the list because they are war protesters or for other political reasons (which wouldn't shock me to learn), that should stop, but so far I haven't seen any examples of that in print.

[Neil Lisst]

7. You're being far too accepting.

They're putting enemies of the Bush administration on the list, and even one minute delay is too many.

This is about the third time I've seen you rationalize or justify the actions by telling your story. All your story proves is that you don't mind being shoved around, intimidated, and made to toe their line.

Exactly how many Jim Moores do you think should be on the No Fly list? I'm guessing the number is ZERO.

They put him on the list because he wrote a book. Where is your outrage?!

[DefenseLawyer]

8. He obviously wasn't on the list

The story I saw about him said specifically that they "didn't keep him from flying". If you are actually on the NO FLY list then you NO FLY. His name was on the list, and once they ran his i.d. he went on his way. My name is as anglo saxon as they come and it's on the list. I absolutely don't think they are above such things, I just haven't seen proof of it. And if there was proof, I would be outraged.

[Neil Lisst]

9. Why are you so adamant about explaining it away?

You haven't seen proof of it?!

They put him on the list because he's the author of a book critical of Bush and Rove.

You're far too pliable and accepting of the circumstance. Do you really think he was added to the list a year ago for any reason other than his criticism of Bush?

There is NO James Moore they're looking for. It's HIM. Of course it's him. It's rather naive to suggest otherwise.

[DefenseLawyer]

10. Again,

if he was on the list he wouldn't have been able to board the plane. He boarded the plane. He is not on the list. A person with his name was on the list. There are plenty of things to be outraged about, but don't make outrageous claims that can easily be disproved. You show me where he or anyone else has been denied the right to travel for strictly political reasons and I will be right with you. Again, I wouldn't put it past them. This just doesn't seem to be the case here. And for the record, I have never been a prosecutor in my life. That hurts.

[Neil Lisst]

12. There is none so blind ...

... as those who will not see.

I can't say I respect your opinion.

[DefenseLawyer]

13. Just explain how he was able to board the plane.

Seems simple enough to me. I guess you could just keep up the personal shots at me, telling me what you respect or not, as if I should some how care. That's fine, whatever gets you through the night, but it doesn't really further your position. Your premise is that James Moore was placed on the TSA NO FLY list because he was a Bush political enemy. All I ask is that you explain how he was able to board a commercial flight if that is the case. Please enlighten me

[napi21]

14. Did you see the family on 60 Minutes several months ago,

Their 2 1/2 year old's name was on the No Fly List. They were detained for several days because the idiots at the counter insisted on 3 forms of ID, and NO 2 1/2 year old has that many! The mother had her little girls bits certificate, but that was only one ID.

A similar story was on our local news 2 days ago, about a little boy, 6 years old I think. Same problem! Not enough ID to satisfy the idiot at the counter.

I'm not trying to slam all the counter attendants, because I suspect they are told "There are NO exceptions!" Too bad their bosses don't have enough confidence in their employees to say, sometimes, you have to use some common sense!!!!!!

[DefenseLawyer]

15. Oh I know those stories are true

My name is on the damn list, so I know very well what the drill is. But the point is the 2 1/2 year old is NOT on the terrorist list. The child's NAME is on the list. That was my original point, there is a difference between being put on the list and finding that your name is on the list. If you are actually ON the list, having the proper ID won't get you on the plane, it will get you taken in for questioning. If you are actually on the list, you can't make a phone call and "clear it up" and get on the plane. I am not a fan of the stupid list. I just haven't seen any proof that James Moore the author was put on it.

[napi21]

17. Oh, I understand the difference between your name and "YOU".

That's not my argument! I suspect MOST people who are detained are NOT terrorists! The problem I see with this is that once you've presented your ID and have been confirmed to be OK to fly, they STILL son't take your NAME off the list, so you have to go through this questioning mess every time you fly and probably on your return trip too!

I see a valid reason to have a No Fly List, but the way it is being handled and maintained leaves a lot to be desired!

It seems to me like so many other things this government does. The basic idea is a good one, but the implementers just can't seem to do it right!

[DefenseLawyer]

19. Well presumably

the reason the can't take one's name off the list is because there is still someone out there with that name that IS on the list, which is why the name was on the list in the first place. I completely agree that there ought to be some better way to implement it. Once last year I was flying out of a rather small airport, and knowing the drill I went up to the counter and immediately told the guy I was on the list. Instead of picking up the special phone and reading off some strange code followed by my name and date of birth (as is the normal routine) he just typed something on his computer, halfway looked up and said "Eh, you don't look like you were born in 1943" and handed me my pass.

[Neil Lisst]

18. I don't think that's necessary.

You're wearing blinders. You refuse to see that which is in front of you.

Do you always believe what the Bush administration tells you?

I find your story of personal experience doubtful, so I really see no point in discussing anything with you further. I don't believe you, and I certainly don't think your suppositions are sound.

[DefenseLawyer]

21. You are one helluva debater there, sport.

As far as I can see you didn't say one thing to support your position and seem unable to answer a simple question. It was never my intention to fight with you, whomever you are. I appreciate that you obviously think very highly of yourself, but as for me, I don't think your supposition that I would care in the least what you believe or don't believe, is sound. But hey, have a nice day.

[Neil Lisst]

23. This isn't a debate.

You have an opinion, which you love to give ad nauseam, about this topic.

I get it. You think because you don't mind suffering the delay that you claim to suffer, then everyone should be as impotent in the face of it.

Thank God James Moore doesn't agree with you about going quietly into that good night. Of course, that's why he's James Moore and you're whoever you are.

[DefenseLawyer]

27. Do you have a learning disability?

If so, I apologize. If not, I wonder if you really missed the point, or you just can't fathom someone disagreeing with your premise. I do mind suffering the delay, what I said has nothing to do with suffering delay or taking shit from the government or quoting Dylan Thomas. I think the whole concept is stupid and doesn't make anyone more secure. The fact remains, I don't suffer the delay because I am a terrorist or because anyone THINKS I am a terrorist or because someone put me on the list to fuck with me. I have the same name as someone they want to fuck with. Guess what? If I remember to use my middle initial when I book, I don't get hassled at all. If James Moore is in the same boat, then you are making a false claim and your outrage is misplaced. If he is actually on the stupid list, I am as outraged, though not nearly as pompous, as you are. All I said was, I have seen no evidence that James Moore the author was on the No fly list. In fact the only evidence I have seen is contrary to that (he is able to fly). Again, if you can offer some EVIDENCE (how novel) that James Moore the author was put on the no fly list, I am ready to hear it. I would love to hear it. If he is it is one more reason Karl Rove should go to jail.

[Neil Lisst]

28. I've wasted all the time I'm going to trying to explain it to you.

I'm sure you'll continue spinning aimlessly without me.

[High Plains]

22. Yeah, he was mistaken for Jim Moore the Islamic bomber...

[BuyingThyme]

5. Crazy people,

Airplanes have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. If you think they do, you are a moran.

[grateful581]

6. I have no faith in the no fly list

After I read reports of Jim Moore (Bush's Brain co-author) being put on the no fly list.
Is this bush's plan to punish people who speak out against him?
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/3571064.html

[rustydog]

11. How many Republicans are on the list?

[DanCa]

16. whatever happened to cat stevens?

I was just wondering if he is still banned from this country or not because he showed up on a no fly list several years back.

[mwooldri]

24. Well Yusuf hasn't advertised him going back to the USA ...

... at least not on his homepage.

[High Plains]

20. The no-fly list is a crock of shit

Why should anyone be on a list like that? Because our government suspects them of being linked to terrorists, right? That is the only legitimate reason, right?

So we think this guy is a terrorist bomber and...we don't arrest him? We just don't let him fly? WTF?

Just cranking up the authoritarianism another notch.

[mwooldri]

25. Unsure how it would apply to me: a permanent resident.

I guess it would mean that I could fly... one way. Out.

Fortunately I am in the position to ask 25 other countries to unify our family if the worst comes to the worst. I guess I could learn Estonian or Czech if I needed to.

[newspeak]

26. so how about the

80 year old anti-nuclear, pro peace nun who was on the No Fly List? Or the Green Party member who was supposed to give a key speech in New York? Or Quakers who are on the No Fly List. People who believe in non-violence and peace. Why would their names be on the list? I mean, people who actually believe in not harming other people.