Can we cut through all the straw man BULLSHIT and get to the real issue?

[nonconformist]

It's about labor. It's about simple economics. It's about reality.

This is the reality: there are 11 million illegal immigrants in this country. Most of them work for slave wages, without the protection of U.S. labor laws. Because corporations have gotten away with it so easily, and they see what enormous profits such practices bring in, it's becoming an increasingly widespread problem... and it's spreading very fast in sectors that were generally unionized middle class strongholds - like construction and mining. Skilled trades. SLAVE WAGES FOR SKILLED TRADES. This is driving down wages and benefits for ALL workers in similar fields. It's the Walmart syndrome - a Walmart moves into town and the average wage decreases. And it's not just affecting unskilled labor anymore.

Is this the right direction for America? Should we wait until the middle class is completely decimated before we come to the consensus that this is a very real, growing problem that must be addressed?

I have a good friend in Michigan, where I'm from. Cousin of a cousin actually. He's been working in construction for 12 years, and has always made around $20 an hour with a nice benefit package. A couple of months ago, his company told him they were going to have to drop his pay down to $12/hr and cut his overtime. They're also "reworking" the benefit package. He doesn't quit, but he starts looking around for another job. He can't find anything in his field, even with his experience, that pays over $10/hr anymore. Meanwhile, several people at the company DID quit, and they promptly replaced them with immigrant workers with questionable work permits. He used to get between 50-60 hours a week, and made a nice living for years. He said he's lucky to get 30 hrs a week these days. Want to know the kicker? HE'S MEXICAN-AMERICAN.

It's not about race. Is it to some people? Shit, to some people, EVERYTHING is about race, and you all know that. There are always going to be people who rally for or against something solely motivated by racism. But some people's motivations do not make this any less of a problem. I know it wouldn't make a bit of difference to me on how I feel about this issue if the people in question were all white Europeans instead of Mexicans. Because it's not about race. It's about labor and economics.

A large mine corporation in my area, Massey, is trying to get the law changed that requires miners to be able to speak and understand English for safety issues. Their reasoning? American miners, particularly Eastern Kentucky miners, have a bad work ethic and there are so many "on drugs", according to the leaked internal memo. They want the law changed so they can bring in "other workers". You know, the ones that will work for much longer hours, accept very low wages and not expect any benefits at all. It'd also probably be easier to cover up a mine disaster if the only people killed were undocumented workers, wouldn't it? This is an IMPOVERISHED area, and everyone knows that the best paying jobs in this region for blue collar workers are in the mining field. It's dangerous, back breaking work and decades of labor reform, safety regulations and people dying for union rights have made it well paying work. Well, it did. The unions are all but gone, and with them they took most of the benefit packages. If the mining company is successful, do you have any idea what that would do to this region? I thought it was bad when GM left Flint. Mining jobs disappearing and salaries tanking will CRUSH this entire region - already the poorest region in the U.S.

The middle class is getting it from both ends - between outsourcing and insourcing labor. America is what it is because of a strong middle class. No democracy can flourish without one, and the most effective way to kill a democracy is to crush the middle class. But there are BIG profits to be made by doing so.

There are very simple, reasonable things that can be done to stop this trend:

1. Enforce existing laws.
2. DRACONIAN fines for hiring illegal workers. I'm talking 50k per day, per employee. That would get their attention REALLY fast. Even stiffer fines for repeat offenders. Better yet, make it a felony for habitual illegal employers and throw their CEO's in jail.
3. Raise the minimum wage

I'm not suggestion mass deportation, because I don't think it's a realistic idea in the least. But if the slave labor pool dries up, many will leave on their own - particularly the ones who only come here for a few years and send home the majority of their earnings to Mexico. The ones that want to stay will be forced to go through the legal channels to be able to find any employment.

Will some people get screwed in such a situation? Yes. It's unavoidable. That's the fucked up reality that I think we all need to accept. Whatever happens, especially if nothing happens, people are going to get screwed over. There is no perfect solution. We just have to find the solution that is best for everyone in the long term and that screws over the fewest people in the short term.

Amnesty would be a disaster. It would encourage not only more illegal immigrants to come here, but it would be a very encouraging green light to the corporations to ramp up these practices. Totally open borders, while a novel concept, simply isn't realistic. A slave wage class will destroy America as we know it and reduce the standard of living for millions of Americans... and it does nothing to address the problems in Mexico that they are fleeing, so it keeps the standard of living very low for millions in Mexico.

It's very difficult to have a meaningful conversation with people who support the cheap labor movement, because they're not addressing the specific issues and the impact that this has on the blue collar middle class. It's just straw man city. So lets get them out of the way, so we can talk about a real problem and figure out some real solutions:

1. It's not inherently racist, or even xenophobic, to have a position like mine. I will always side on the side of labor and a strong middle class, always. It's in my blood, I grew up with it. I have a very political and a VERY involved family. My parents still have their autographed picture of Caesar Chavez hanging in their hallway. I come from a Hispanic family. So don't even go there.

2. Nobody wants to deny people a better life. Wait... scratch that. The corporations and the champions of cheap labor want that. We want people to have better lives, both in America and in Mexico. An exploited slave labor class in the U.S. and a Mexico that can ignore it's problems doesn't exactly scream "better lives for all!"

3. Yes, most everyone born in the U.S. descends from immigrants. And? I haven't heard any reasonable people come down on legal immigration. But to point out the obvious, this isn't the same country as it was a century or two ago - and the same regulations are simply not realistic if you want to maintain what America struggled and worked to become. Legal immigration and refugee programs are the key. I wish everyone on earth could have a nice, comfortable life... I really honestly do. Allowing millions of people to illegally come into the country so corporations can exploit them isn't the answer though.

4. No, they're not doing work Americans won't do. There isn't a single job in America that legal Americans won't, can't, or aren't doing. Not a single one. They're doing it for the slave wages Americans won't work for. And isn't it, dare I say, racist, to spew this mantra? "we need brown people to clean our toilets for peanuts, because we don't want to - we're AMERICANS" Seriously, WTF? Plus, give it some time... more and more legal Americans will be forced to work for those slave wages, because there won't be any other options.

5. Cheap goods. Well, people will be able to afford to pay a bit more for something if they're making more money, that's for sure. They can't buy shit if they're broke. Blame the corporations if prices increase. There is already a ridiculous markup on most items, and CEO billionaires are doing just fine and dandy. Pricing is always dictated more by what people will pay than by a set markup. It's a tool to piss you off so you will support cheap labor. The same argument was made to justify slavery.

Now, can we talk about this in a realistic, reasonable way?

[RagingInMiami]

1. So if we get rid of the immigrants and build a wall across the border

Does your friend's salary jump back up to $20 an hour?

[nonconformist]

2. See - this is what I'm talking about

You clearly did not read my post, because if you did you would know that I don't support mass deportation or a wall.

[RagingInMiami]

40. You're right, I did not read your entire post

I stopped reading when you said "it's not about race" because from my experience this past week, when people say that, it's all about race.

I've since read your entire post. I don't think you're being racist.

But I don't agree that we need to blame the lower immigrant class for the woes of the middle-class or the working class. I know you acknowledge that they are only part of the problem.

You see, all this debate about immigration this past week, has focused solely on immigration as if that is responsible for all the economic problems in this country. Apparently, nothing stirs the masses as effectively as a crusade against immigrants.

Where is the outcry over outsourcing?

Where is the outcry over corporate deregulation?

Where is the outcry over massive layoffs in our auto industry?

In my opinion, those factors have more to do with the downfall of our economy than the Mexicans. But the Mexicans are such an easy target. They're like the kid that everybody picked on in school, that everybody slapped around when they really would have liked to slap around the big bully, only they were afraid to.

And the big bully is responsible for the factors I mentioned above. But everybody is afraid to stand up to them. Or maybe they're just powerless to do so. But rather than mobilize and come up with a solution, they point their finger at the Mexican and blame him.

This is nothing new. It's been happening since the 19th century. And sure there have been struggles and growing pains with each new immigration wave. Hell, I lived in Miami during the 1980s when Castro allowed 125,000 Cubans to leave Cuba, 25,000 of them released from jails or mental hospitals.

The crime rate skyrocketed that decade. There was huge ethnic and racial tension. Miami residents, including the previous generation of Cuban immigrants, blamed the new Cubans for the downfall of the economy.

But we survived it all and we became stronger. The Cuban criminals are dead or in prison. The rest of the Cubans have assimilated into the working force, many by starting their own business. Their kids went to college. Many of the Marielitos moved out of Miami to other parts of the United States.

And what happened in Miami was nothing new. It happened in New York more than a 100 years earlier. Same shit. Crime rate shot up. Ethnic tensions. Blaming the immigrants for the downfall of the economy.

And look at New York now.

I see the same thing happening with this recent wave of immigrants in the Southwest. History repeats itself. This will sort itself out. In the meantime, if we're going to argue economics, let's start at the top, not the bottom.

This administration practices "trickle-down" economics, which has proven to never really trickle down. What we need to do is slam an ax against the powers-that-be to cause that money to come flooding out, rather than trickling down.

[nonconformist]

Where is the outcry?

Right here. I've been screaming about that stuff for years. Here on DU, elsewhere... to anyone that will listen, basically.

I know you mean on a broad scale, like in the media and in congress. I wish I had an answer.

It's definitely not the only contributor. And I really don't blame the immigrants, I blame the corporations and the government. I also blame Mexico's government.

I think this topic is getting a ton of attention right now because the effects are starting to spread very quickly into several middle class sectors. Plus, right now it's on the table - so of course it will be what we're all discussing.

You make a lot of interesting points about historic precedence. But I don't think those situations are exactly what we're looking at right now, because it took decades of reform and labor laws and the New Deal to establish a strong middle class, and since the 80's it's been slowly going downhill. I think America and it's labor market are simply too weak, too demoralized to be able to bounce back from such an assault. Maybe over a generation or two, and only if everyone wakes up and starts changing things now.

[theobscure]

117. I appreciate your sentiment

But it's simply unrealistic to think that if corporations would just stop being immoral (which I agree they are) then everyone in this country and anyone in however many numbers that comes to this country in the future could get paid a living wage and have a nice, middle class life. It sounds great; but it's just not possible. You are looking at the issue in an idealistic vacuum.

[FogerRox]

119. lets call a spade a spade

Corporatists want a Feudal society. And Hegemony.

[Cobalt Violet]

72. Well, I think the answer to his question would be, yes.

I'm sure it would go up to that again.

But ya, this is what we're up against. Corporations wet dream.

[QC]

76. Thank you for that excellent example of a straw man! n/t

[Marie26]

96. How is it a strawman? nt

[QC]

104. He accused the original poster of saying something he did not say.

That's the very dictionary definition of a straw man.

[nonconformist]

105. She.

:7

[QC]

112. Many apologies! n/t

[nonconformist]

126. No worries! nt

[Marie26]

120. True.

Sometimes I think most "debates" here are just conflicting strawmen. The OP did a really good job of outlining & explaining the issues w/o making assumptions or accusations.

[RagingInMiami]

97. Don't make me come after you now

[rocktivity]

3. YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YESSSSSSSSSSSS!

A towel and a cigarette, please... :smoke:

The fact that this immigration "crisis" does not include sealing US borders, tougher punishment for business who hire illegals, more emphasis on deportation than amnesty, and a harder line on Mexico's border-crossing policies proves that stopping the flow and availability of cheap labor is the LAST thing that US businesses and the Mexican government want. Let's bring down the hammer on the REAL culprits!!!

:headbang:
rocknation

[shanti]

4. so what about the children of illegals?

:shrug:

[nonconformist]

7. If they're born here, they're citizens

Again, I will point out that I do not support mass deportation, and this is one of the reasons.

I can't help but think those kids will be better off if their parents become legal and can make better money. They'll also be better off when they enter the workforce if we have a better labor policy and a higher minimum wage.

If their parents cannot obtain any legal authorization to remain here, I would suspect most will just continue to slip under the radar and work for peanuts.

It's not a problem that can be solved overnight, and the slave labor pool isn't drying up anytime soon.

[EFerrari]

16. 3 million kids shouldn't get in the way of "economics"

:sarcasm:

[silverojo]

47. Children of illegals

If the parents want to stay here with the baby so bad, all they have to do is enter LEGALLY and make an attempt to learn a little English.

That's really not asking too much, for the sake of your child. If this little effort isn't worth it for the child's sake, you're not a very good parent.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

81. To get here legally will take years. So should the child live in Mexico

And then come back here when they are an adult? They are US citizens afterall...

[Inland]

85. But the parents always decide where the kids will be, even w/o deportation

After all, if the parents return to the home country voluntarily, nobody asks if they are kidnapping American Citizens. Fact is, kids go where the parents decide they will go, whether the parents are doing it voluntarily or involuntarily, across town or across the world. If the parents want the kids to remain here, they'll have to make arrangements. I'm not sure how this is any different from, say, a corporate relocation.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

86. A corporate relocation...you don't see how moving kids is different...

Especially separating kids from their families. So the choices are take your kid back to starve, or leave your kid here with friends, or family.

[Inland]

87. It would be. Kids are always stuck with parent's choices.

There's nothing particularly different in the context of parents taking a chance on being caught and deported, either.

I remember a parent who insisted that his son be returned to him in a relatively poor, oppressive nation, and our government actually used physical force to make it happen, to the cheers of liberals everywhere, including myself.

[stevietheman]

5. As a programmer, I am in sympathy with your point of view

I especially like that you concentrate on enforcing the laws vis a vis businesses who hire illegals.

Dry up the jobs for illegals, then illegals will migrate back to their homelands by their own accord.

No force is necessary. Well, except against the companies who hire illegals.

[Erika]

8. W's corporatism will never allow the drying up of jobs

That's not what he is about. W wants cheap labor here. Don't you read the details about his plans?

[stevietheman]

92. Yes, but let's not let "finding the best policy" be warped by W's...

"plans". He is a moron. I'm just trying to think out loud about what the best approach will be. I am opposed to forced deportation as well as a guest worker program--both approaches are imbecilic.

[hfojvt]

17. Is it all about companies?

Some illegals are working as domestic servants aren't they?

Also, I work for $12 an hour cleaning toilets, almost the same job as I was doing in 1996 for $5.5 an hour and no benefits.

[stevietheman]

93. You're right... it's difficult to think of a fully comprehensive approach

to the illegal immigration. Domestic servants may be much harder to deal with, unless those who hire illegal immigrants for such services were turned in to the authorities.

[nonconformist]

94. True. They will be harder to regulate.

More work for companies, but it is a far reaching problem.

I support fines for all those who hire illegal workers, be it a corporation or some rich broad who wants a nanny at the lowest possible price.

I hope you continue to make $12, more even. If current trends continue, though, the outlook isn't good.

[Erika]

6. W, the world corporatist king has no concerns for our workers

much less the Hispanic workers. It's all about corporate globalism and max profits.

W has sold us out completely. Even the bushbots are waking up.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nonconformist]

18. Yes, I do.

I know full well what it means to be hungry. I've been on my own since I was 16 years old. I've lived in a car (not even my car, because I didn't have one).

No, I do not know what it is like to be destitute for decades at a time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, the progressive thing would be to encourage the countries where people are destitute for decades to change their ways and help their people. Because we're not really helping their people, we're exploiting them. And we're hurting our own.

If we have a slave class in the U.S., we're going to have a lot more hungry people. A whole lot more. And people will still be starving in Mexico to boot. What is the solution there?

You offer no solutions.

[EFerrari]

22. You haven't tapped me for any.

And the first step, hermanito, is not to plan the starvation of workers.

Why is this so difficult? Why is this about having a "slave class"?

Why isn't this about making common cause with exploited workers?

You know, there is no real way to keep the hungry from trying to find food -- a concept that may be too difficult for a lot of us here to really get.

Hungry people aren't the problem, counter intuitive as this may sound on this board.

We get our elections back. We throw the corporatists out. Latin America is being swept by reform, by a socialist movement. Any day, THEY will build a wall to keep US out.

We hold the slavers responsible and make common cause with workers. What is so difficult to understand about that.

There are solutions that don't involve mass round ups. Geezus Joseph and Mary.

[nonconformist]

29. My original posts "tapped" everyone for a solution

And my original post emphatically stated that I do not support "mass round ups".

I support fines for corporations, raising the min wage and enforcing existing laws.

See, we can't even discuss this, because you didn't even read my post.

[EFerrari]

39. Oh, yes I did. And you're still talking about people

as if they are statistics.

I apologize if I'm shrill. It's been a long week.

But, we have to get this. The migration from what we call "latin america" has been happening from time immemorial. It will never stop. There is no wall that can be built that will stop it.

And, it's our beloved coporatists that have squeezed those people into a travelling slave class.

And we keep blaming the people who are trying to live.

I have been so shocked by DU's inability to see that are just two sets of people that are being exploited, I've been dumbfounded for days.

There is nothing the undocumented workers need that we shouldn't be fighting for. We should be right next to them, marching with them as many of us are.

When we side with nationalism over human rights. we all lose. It's a small planet.

[nonconformist]

26. And I will also ask - what is your reality?

Because the reality I outlined is what the issue is now, and a sensible plan to help solve it.

What part of that was not a part of your "reality"?

That 11 million illegal immigrants are in this country and working for slave wages?

That it's bringing down wages across the blue collar board - in both unskilled and skilled trades?

That the corporations are exploiting those workers and trying to create a slave class to line their own pockets?

Please, I would love to hear why that isn't your "reality", and I would also like to know what planet you live on.

Those are simply the facts.

We can either sling sarcasm and straw men all over the place, or we can talk about what we can do to solve the problem for everyone.

And I hate to break it to you, but slave labor is not reducing world hunger. Globalization has increased world hunger.

[EFerrari]

48. Thank you. Now I can let go of that slave labor value.

:sarcasm:

[druidity33]

70. normally...

I enjoy and admire your posts. I think you should take a step back, take a deep breath or two and examine why this thread is twisting you up. Personally, i think it's the use of the word "slave", by the OP so many times. But lately i too have been wondering where the creative problem solvers out there are. We need people to start offering solutions to these problems... and work constructively together. Here at DU, even if i disagree with what someone is saying, i am often glad when they propose action or ideas for correcting the problem... so in that respect i am siding with the OP. If you don't like his ideas for solving this huge quandry, propose your own!

Meantime i pray for a peaceful and just solution...

[EFerrari]

71. Actually, I posted and have been posting suggestions. See #22 n/t.

[druidity33]

79. Is this what you're referring to?

"We get our elections back. We throw the corporatists out....
We hold the slavers responsible and make common cause with workers..."

sorry, sfexpat2000, that sounds more like a pipe dream than a plan... essentially you're saying we should wait until there's a better time for this discussion (maybe a "keeping your powder dry" moment), but i submit that only one of those actions you suggest is even possible (the elections one). Regardless of who is in control of our Gov't, the corporatists will remain and no one of the First (i.e. BFEE) magnitude will ever be held truly responsible. As for "common cause" with the workers, we can't even get most people to accept that Unions are good for the economy and worker's rights. My partner is a Union Leader of a shop with 15,000 people and their meetings regularly draw only 15-20 people.

I think the first party we as a unified group of activists should be crashing is the Fourth Estate... and to some extent this is already being done (re: Kaloogian matter, AP Raw Story rip-offs, etc)...

Second and more important, we should be working hard on developing a NON-MARKET ECONOMY... i'll quote Edgar Cahn here from his book No More Throw-Away People (a book i think EVERYONE should read):

"We need an economy that rewards decency, caring, civic participation, and learning as automatically as the market now rewards unbridled self-interest, winner-take-all competition, and runaway specialization"

He offers plenty of peaceful and thoughtful solutions to our current social issues that could work outside of and in conjunction with current systems.

More to say with no time to say it...

[EFerrari]

111. Well, you can believe in an economy of lack or you can believe

in the ingenuity of the American people.

It's a choice we'd make even without this GOP sponsored "crisis" of illegal immigration. (And in no way do I agree to this current policy train wreck that puts so many people at so much risk in so many ways.)

I think Al Gore pointed out the same thing in his next to last speech -- referring to what looks like our dwindling resources, not to illegal immigration. I'm probably not doing a good job of articulating and you may be right insofar as I grew up in a much more liberal and expansive moment in our cultural history.

In any case, before a situation can be bettered, first you have to be able to imagine betterment. So for now, you can count me in the DUer Pipe Dream Team.

:)

[druidity33]

114. economy of lack?

Sorry, but i'm unfamiliar with that term. As for the ingenuity of the American people, well... i'm not going to try and comment on that one... suffice to say i believe in neither. Imagine betterment through Co-Production. Read the book No More Throw-Away People, it will impress you with its breadth.

Any solution proposed by our current crop of Reps is bound to be seriously flawed... in that we probably agree. I was only suggesting that if you've got a dream and want to attain it, you must outline achievable goals... y'know, the whole one step at a time thing (the OP was better at this than you). Cahn's book is just as idealistic as your pipe dreams, but he offers strategy and implementation advice... as well as having already formed an international network of TimeBanks... an idealistic idea that has been tested, and works!

Dreams do come true... but only if we bend our lives toward them.

:-)

[EFerrari]

115. I agree completely and thanks for pulling me up.

:hi:

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSK]

55. what are you arguing about? you are both saying the same thing

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[Pushed To The Left]

60. I was thinking the same thing!

It seems that some people will argue with eachother on this issue even when they agree! I think the consensus on DU appears to be to go after the employers who hire and exploit illegal immigrants.

[Buns_of_Fire]

100. ...and there we have the starting point: go after the employers FIRST.

I think much of the heat generated on DU lately on this issue is that the entire situation is very, very large, with many interlocking pieces. I see the arguments on both sides, and I can see where both sides are coming from. (Unlike Solomon, though, I haven't seen a solution yet that's fair and equitable to everyone.)

So, in my humble yet extremely egotistical role, I would propose a categorization and breaking-down of the issue into managable bite-sized pieces. Take care of Problem "A", then move on to Problem "B".

To me, the first piece is merely making it unprofitable for a mega-corporation (or their contractors) to exploit what amounts to slave labor from either side of the Rio Grande -- profits are all corporations understand, after all. Enforce the existing laws. Heavy, HEAVY fines for noncompliance (and I'm talking about fines large enough to drive some of these corporations into insolvency!). Even some jail time for those in the executive suites, when appropriate.

This "predatory capitalism" deal sucks eggs. Either we can raise everyone to an acceptable level, or we can all go down together.

[nonconformist]

61. It's not a good thread on DU unless there is some pointless arguing nt

[Cobalt Violet]

73. I have been hungry and homeless.

Happy now.

[sadiesworld]

10. K&R

This is quite possibly the best post I've read here at DU on this issue. Thanks.

(too tired to post further tonight)

[Kurovski]

11. K&R

Addressing the economic reality as the actual problem sidetracks all the emotion within the issue that BushCo would love to make political hay from.

Edit: But calling all the other issues and concerns around this topic "bullshit" was not a very prudent move, and will rightly guarantee you some angry responses, IMO.

[leftstreet]

12. Great post

:thumbsup:

But you're gonna take fire from the Cheap Lettuce Liberals around here.
:hide:

[upi402]

13. "It's about labor. It's about simple economics. It's about reality." BINGO

IT'S ABOUT MONEY in capitalism -or the power to control it. In-sourcing is a short term advantage in a factor of production.

[EFerrari]

15. And it's never about hungry people. n/t

[leftstreet]

19. When did "hunger" become the Liberal Litmus Test?

I guess I missed it.

Before this immigration debacle, I saw virtually NO threads on DU about the plight of Americans going hungry in America.

[EFerrari]

24. DU has a poverty forum. You might want to check it out. n/t

[leftstreet]

25. Is that like the 911 forum?

Sent to the basement because no one likes to talk about it?
:shrug:

[EFerrari]

28. There are some very amazing DUers there.

:)

[leftstreet]

30. Yeah. And there are some amazing DUers HERE

trying to filter through the "Illegal Immigration" talking points and figure out what the hell is going on.
:)

[EFerrari]

33. It's not easy, for sure.,

We can do it. :)

[file83]

35. LOL!!! OMG!!!

:rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[leftstreet]

38. Your overuse of the rofl icon has caused me to crack a rib

:rofl:

[file83]

41. LOL....I was gettin' *crazyyyyyy* with the [center] and rofl !!!

Your post about the 9/11 forum being like the "homeless" forum struck my funny bone BIG TIME...:rofl:

[leftstreet]

43. Stop it

This is series bidness here!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[file83]

46. OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

:spray: Your humor is HUGH!!!111 :spray:

[leftstreet]

49. Why do you hate America?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
STOP IT!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
STOP IT!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
STOP IT!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[northofdenali]

53. Off topic, but did you know I'm an idiot?

I've been trying to figure out how to "center" a line for a long time. :blush: and :pals: and thanks.

Back on topic: Civility is tough, and obeying the law is tough, when you or your children or loved ones are hungry, cold, or sick. I, too, don't think there's any answer in mass deportation, but I'd certainly like to see the current laws about hiring enforced. And I'd like them expanded to include hiring a gardener, nanny, painter, whatever - and yes, I've done so. I hired a couple from Nicaragua last year to paint a deck. They fucked it up, but so would anyone who really didn't know what they were doing. They had 4 kids, and were living in their car, so I hired them. Then I repainted the deck myself.

I would not even have considered just offering them the money. Everyone is entitled to their dignity, and the father and mother were both obviously dismayed by their plight. But the kids were polite, and clean, and worked just as hard as mom and dad.

I don't have any answers, but I know that, as progressives and just as caring people, if we work on this together, we can come up with many, many ideas that will be workable. I don't believe there are any complete solutions. But the problems are there, and ignoring them will not make them go away.

[file83]

59. Happy to teach you a new trick....

There's a lot of hatred and resentment on both sides of this issue. The politicians will ALWAYS exploit that weakness to push their agendas forward. The only way for the masses to trump that is to rise up together and make their demands if they ever hope to be heard.

[upi402]

20. In the machine of power and wealth -no. Just to folks like us. The next

group of hungry people. And it will happen, I think. And soon the way things are going.

[EFerrari]

23. We keep fighting. Today, everyone is talking about

undocumented workers.

Tomorrow, they will be talkin about us.

We fight that.

[upi402]

32. I hear ya. Where is the line drawn? Africa has a free pass too?

Other countries, especially Mexico, protect their citizens. Other countries are closed. Mexico doesn't allow us to work there. Business pits exploitable labor against organized labor and wins. Old school.

We are already relatively wide open and it's amazing we aren't- taken advantage of -more than we are.
If we don't take the fuzzy-eyed blinders off we wont see the 2X4 about to smack us 'long side the head.

[EFerrari]

31. Yes., And this fantasy of scrubbing 11 million people

so we can sleep at night is just insane.

They keep screaming "economics" as if economics can disappear PEOPLE.

[upi402]

36. Do you advocate allowing Africans illegally coming in as well?

[EFerrari]

45. I simply don't understand your question.

This is a nation of immigrants. Except for the people that were brought here against their will.

[bobalu]

98. I simply don't understand your self-righteousness...."We are a

country of Immigrants"....No kidding..So are some other countries, but they have COMMON SENSE laws to protect the CITIZENS already here.

Another thing not widely known, and that is that, though out most of our history, we have had QUOTAS on immigration (and no, not "racial" ones)...If you check out a book by pulitzer-prize winning journalists, Barlett and Steele, you will see that our level of LEGAL immigration has, as of the early nineteen nineties, QUADRUPLED from what it was in the seventies, sixties, fifties.

..It is now at LEAST as high as it was at the turn of the LAST century...without the jobs to go with it.

...And this is LEGAL immigration, spurred on in part by the H-1B Visa, characterized by former Sec'y of Labor, Robert Reich, as "fraught with Abuse"

The book by the way, is "America: Who Stole the Dream"?

[EFerrari]

128. Self righteousness? Since when did acknowledging

hunger become self righteousness? That's just silly.

I'd dearly love to hear your plan for keeping hungry people out of this country.

It's not going to happen. There is no wall you can build that will do that. We will have to deal with the consequences of our foreign policy, especially in Latin America. We will have to deal with the people that our government has exploited both in their country and here.

"Common sense" can't wash away years of exploitation. By now, hundreds of years.

[bobalu]

129. Ummm, yes...must be a lot of "silly" people on this thread since

they seem, generally, to be in agreement with the OP and myself.:eyes:

[EFerrari]

130. Non sequitur. n/t

[bobalu]

131. Un interested. Except to say that concerns for grammar DO tend to

be raised during those times when we find ourselves without substantive response to the original comment.

:)

And now I really must say "adieu" as I've grown tired of talking to people who refuse to combine common sense with their purported "compassion".

[EFerrari]

133. Logic, not grammar. Saying I'm self righteous because

people don't agree with me is illogical. You're right. This is fruitless.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Common Sense Party]

21. Wow. Common sense on immigration? I haven't heard any in

so long, I'd forgotten what it sounded like. Good post.

[IChing]

27. Didn't read your thread before I wrote my rant.

We are on the same track my friend.

[IChing]

57. I know it is crazy but I wanted to put my link in for your popcorn thought

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x812180

[nonconformist]

65. Great post, I gave it a kick. nt

[vickitulsa]

118. Not crazy at all! I hope more people will go read that thread too

and perhaps recommend it and post their thoughts in it as well. I did!

I was actually sort of relieved to read both of these threads today after wading through a lot of discussions of this topic recently that at times bordered on the vitriolic. Arguing can be productive, of course; but I take no pleasure and regret wasted time spent in reading strident arguments that are NOT productive but are rather divisive instead.

Heaven knows GWB & Co are doing their best to divide us and thereby weaken us, lest we manage a genuine revolt that has teeth in it!

Strange how this topic in particular seems to cut so many ways, isn't it? I have a hunch that if we could solve THIS problem and put our country on the right track with regard to immigration, we'd be well on our way to solving MANY of our problems and setting this nation aright again....

[debbierlus]

34. A must read post. One of the best written so far on the immigration topic

Thanks.

[calmblueocean]

37. Yes, but how do you deal with the 11 million undocs already here?

To me, the solution is just as you say, but slightly different.

We initiate a 4 year registration plan for undocumented aliens already in this country and contributing to it. Pay a fine and back taxes for coming over illegally, register, and as long as your criminal record is clean, you take your place at the bottom of the list. We fund and technologize the INS so they can actually do the job they're charged with in a reasonable time. After 4 years, registration ends. All employers hiring illegal aliens after this point in time are fined heavily so that the job market for new aliens no longer exists.

Any plan to fine employers will have to look something like this, because there are 11 million undocumented workers in this country, and deporting them all is physically impossible and economically disastrous, as well as being a hideous blemish on our country. If you don't deport them, where do they go? They don't vanish. They may starve, they may turn to crime, but they don't leave on their own. You wouldn't, and neither will they. So it's either some form of mass citizenship (which many call amnesty, even if they do pay a fine) or it's deportation. You gotta pick one.

[nonconformist]

68. Whatever happens isn't going to happen instantly

This is the U.S. government we're talking about.

If we instituted my ideas, the labor market would dry up piece by piece. Probably over the course of years, because we're not very efficient. There will be some deportation, but not mass waves of it. I do believe that the ones that come for a limited time to work and send home money to their family in Mexico will leave and stop coming in droves. The ones that wanted to move to America and set down roots will have to go through the legal channels if they want to find employment in what is hopefully a shrinking cheap illegal labor force.

It's not perfect, but there isn't a perfect solution to this.

[silverojo]

42. To add a few points to this...

It's not about race. Is it to some people? Shit, to some people, EVERYTHING is about race, and you all know that.

I welcome LEGAL immigrants from Mexico or anywhere else. I study four languages. Please don't assume my anti-illegals stance is based on race, because I'm not racist. I merely want to see our laws enforced--this isn't a sin, no matter how the pro-illegals want to invoke racism.

1. Enforce existing laws.
2. DRACONIAN fines for hiring illegal workers. I'm talking 50k per day, per employee. That would get their attention REALLY fast. Even stiffer fines for repeat offenders. Better yet, make it a felony for habitual illegal employers and throw their CEO's in jail.
3. Raise the minimum wage

I'm with you on those ideas.

I'm not suggestion mass deportation, because I don't think it's a realistic idea in the least. But if the slave labor pool dries up, many will leave on their own - particularly the ones who only come here for a few years and send home the majority of their earnings to Mexico. The ones that want to stay will be forced to go through the legal channels to be able to find any employment

Now you lost my support. Deportation is necessary to get rid of as many criminals (illegals) as possible, or else we'd have to support them while keeping them in jail. Your suggestion #1 was "enforce existing laws". Well, part of the existing law is shipping their butts back to Mexico if they come here illegally.

One very important point a lot of people seem to miss is that the illegals themselves are racists, viewing their encroaching on our country as a method of vengeance against the country that won the war (and the land). That's why they don't feel they have to enter our country legally, why they don't feel they have to learn English or accept our culture. They aren't all just poor little dears who want a new start; many of them are coming here just for spite. There's a bumper sticker spotted in L.A. which reads, "F*ck L.A., this is Mexico". Says it all, really--they want to take over, period.

Yes, most everyone born in the U.S. descends from immigrants. And? I haven't heard any reasonable people come down on legal immigration.

So many people act as if we're being hypocrites, because all our people came from other countries. But the thing is, when our forefathers came here, they assimilated into society, not the other way around. They came here LEGALLY, they contributed to society (ever notice how many Mexicans are on welfare?), and most importantly, THEY LEARNED OUR LANGUAGE AND CUSTOMS instead of expecting America to learn THEIR languages and customs.

Amnesty would be a disaster. It would encourage not only more illegal immigrants to come here, but it would be a very encouraging green light to the corporations to ramp up these practices. Totally open borders, while a novel concept, simply isn't realistic.

Amen...preach on!

No, they're not doing work Americans won't do. There isn't a single job in America that legal Americans won't, can't, or aren't doing. Not a single one. They're doing it for the slave wages Americans won't work for. And isn't it, dare I say, racist, to spew this mantra? "we need brown people to clean our toilets for peanuts, because we don't want to - we're AMERICANS"

Damn right, it's a racist attitude to suggest that Americans turn their noses up at jobs. And the illegals so often start their own businesses (landscaping, etc.) so they don't even pay taxes. Just one thing...it's not that the Mexicans do these jobs because Americans WON'T work for low pay, it's because sleazy employers deliberately hire Mexican illegals who can't complain about bad treatment. Again, it's the criminals (the employers) doing this, not average Americans.

Now, can we talk about this in a realistic, reasonable way?

You just did. :)

[DemInDistress]

122. from my quiet little corner in NYC I support your post 100%

To say their are 11 million illegals how do we know that? Maybe 20 million? Who knows? As for not taking a job bullshit I say, here in the Bronx many jobs once held by local Americans (supermarket,pizza,car wash,landscape,restaurants,produce shops, and more) are currently held by undocumented illegal people. Why? Because we can't compete with lower wages. In addition, our local hospitals are overflowing with illegals who "must be served" and where does the cash come from? Certainly not them. Allowing 11-20 million more undocumented people to stay aboard the "Good ship America" will breed a new wave of illegals readying themselves for the long trip to America.
And what about the criminal elements? Plenty of them here too! Its bad enough we have our own "homegrown criminals" now to add several million more, sorry not for me.
One last thing before I get hammered, the Irish,Germans and Italians who came here 100 years ago went through a process called,"ELLIS ISLAND" where some with sponsors took the new arrivals home while many were screened and sent on their way across this great country which I might add may have had,what 120 million in the census department.
I disagree with the OP and want some serious enforcement not coddle the problem with promises of paradise while we Americans get shafted by over population, lower wages and of course "outsourcing"
If you rough up employers where will those illegals go?
Thank you from NYC.

"If you gran them amnesty they will come" taken from Field of Dreams (altered)

[Mike Niendorff]

44. Reality check :

Let's simplify this :

(1) the upper class is preparing to rob the middle class
(2) the upper class is setting up "the immigrants and the Mexicans" to be blamed for it

Any questions?


MDN

[laundry_queen]

52. Ding Ding Ding!

You win the prize!

[LSK]

56. perfect frame

[cap]

58. no question, just an addition ...

(3) This is an election year... This is a wedge issue.... Classic Karl Rove.

[eppur_se_muova]

106. Maybe the most important observation in this thread.

Not that it's lacking otherwise, to be sure.

[rman]

67. Will the lower class be strong enough in time to stop

the upper class - will the 'former middle class' reinforcements be in time?

[glitch]

74. I nominate this post for best in thread. nt

[SemiCharmedQuark]

82. Bingo.

Hungry, desperate people do as hungry and desperate people do. Anyone who has been to Mexico knows that this is beyond American senses of "hungry". This is poverty beyond imagination.

There is only one to blame, the people that hire illegal immigrants. The people who are NOT desperate, just greedy.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

51. I also find it interesting that some progressives and liberals are

willing to make an exception to labor standards when it comes to the immigration issue. They side with the corporations - and their arguments - on why underpaid labor is best for economy. Maybe they're just disguising their own hypocracy.

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[Blue_Tires]

54. well said n/t

[Disturbed]

62. There a few million Illegal Immigrants in the US...

from other places such as China, Africa, Central and Latin America etc. Is the Bush Regime talking about granting Guest Worker status to all Illegal Immingrants in the US?

The following is the best post regarding this topic that I have read on DU.

Illegal Immigration

*The following was posted by pat_k.

Controlling our borders isn't really about control; it's about values

"Controlling our borders" means more than erecting barriers or patrolling. Controlling our borders is about making a commitment to act in a manner that is consistent with our values.

When we set employment standards we are expressing our values. Those standards reflect our belief that all human beings have a right to be treated fairly.

As long as we allow ANY workers to be exploited within our borders, we disgrace ourselves. As long as we turn a blind eye to the violations committed by people who enter illegally or remain after their visa expires, we demonstrate hypocrisy.

Guest worker programs have a place, but too often; such programs have been used to give employers a ticket to pay substandard wages and subject workers to unsafe conditions. We cannot tolerate programs that set different standards for "guests."

To be consistent with American values, we need to "just say no" to the exploitation workers -- documented or not. Continuing to permit predatory employers to operate within our borders will only drive more and more of Us and "Them" into poverty.

Controlling our borders with the stroke of a pen

Building a wall takes time. We don't need to wait. We can effectively control immigration with the stroke of a pen by passing legislation that includes two basic elements:
Going after predatory employers.
Offering a path to citizenship for whistleblowers and their families.

Specifically:
Expand the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) to cover every business and individual employer, whether they employ documented or undocumented workers.
Conditions and terms of employment must meet FLSA and safety requirements for any wage earner who meets the criteria that would require reporting under IRS rules (e.g, the IRS threshold this year is $1500 for most of work).
Criminalize predatory employment practices.
Predatory employers who are violating FLSA, violating OSHA standards, and evading taxes must be subject to prosecution and mandatory prison time.
Whistleblower immigration amnesty.
Clear processes for workers to report predatory employers and maintain anonymity throughout the course of investigation. Whistleblowers who are undocumented (whether an individual or a group) are offered a path to citizenship.
Increase resources and create special units as required
Affected agencies would include the Dept of Labor Wage and Hour Division, Dept of Justice, OSHA, IRS, and INS. The Wage and Hour Division is probably the logical agency to oversee the handling of charges against predatory employers, including preliminary investigation, referral to Justice for investigation and prosecution, referral to IRS, and coordination with INS to process undocumented whistleblowers and other undocumented workers.”

Making implicit costs explicit

“The harmful effects of supporting an underground economy are costly to the nation. When we "just say no" to the exploitation workers, some implicit costs will be made explicit. Americans have a choice. We can invest our tax dollars to our common benefit, or bear the costs -- both moral and monetary -- of exploiting other human beings.

If we choose make predatory employers the prime target, we can ensure the survival of vital "underground economy" sectors by providing transitional supports. We can offset increased costs of goods or services to the working class through tax credits. (Should be part of shifting the costs of citizenship from those who benefit the least from our common infrastructure to those who benefit the most.)”

Radically changing the rules of the game

“If predatory employers faced serious penalties, and the undocumented workers they are exploiting benefited from blowing the whistle, we would significantly increase the risk of exploiting workers.

The threat of exposure and prosecution alone will be sufficient for many to revamp their operations. In some sectors, the predators may simply move operations offshore. In others, predators may be forced out of business. As noted above, it may serve the public interest to provide transition assistance or start up assistance for replacement businesses.

Undoubtedly, a significant percent of undocumented workers would continue to evade detection, but employers would be far less likely to exploit them. If the workers are making a fair wage, the "race to the bottom" has a lower limit and the negative effect on wages is reduced.”

We have a right enforce immigration law and deport violators

“There are situations in which our interests are best served by providing an alternative to deportation. Nevertheless, if it does not serve a public interest to provide an alternative we should not hesitate to deport those who violate immigration laws.

We have a right to enforce our immigration laws. When we shift our focus to predatory employers, we are not forfeiting that right.

Offering legal status to whistleblowers serves us in two vital ways -- it deters predatory employers and it gives authorities vital resources "on the ground" who are motivated to expose those who are not deterred.

Targeting predatory employers creates a new class of unemployable undocumented workers If we do not institute a program that offers an opportunity to achieve legal (employable) status to those who are displaced, the deportation and support costs are likely to rise to intolerable levels.

If we decide that minimizing competition for jobs is worth the costs associated with deportation, the number of families who are offered legal status could be limited by entering those who qualify a "lottery" of sorts. It may seem harsh to allow chance to determine who stays and who goes, but deportation must remain the default consequence of breaking our immigration laws.”

First things first

We can't begin to make progress until we impeach Bush and Cheney and purge the new American fascists from our public institutions ((Impeachment First)). Only then can we effectively engage in the messy -- but democratic -- process of dealing with this and other critical problems.

Conclusion

“Our underground economy makes the United States very attractive to people who are struggling to survive in their own countries. We can change the dynamics right now and virtually eliminate the underground economy, and in the process, minimize the incentive to enter this country unlawfully.

Saying no to the exploitation of workers is central to controlling our borders. Radically changing the rules of the game makes other aspects of controlling immigration more manageable, but it does not eliminate the need for them. We still need to do a better job of tracking the foreign nationals who come here to work, study, or visit. We still need to make our border with Mexico as impenetrable as possible, while weighing the costs against the benefits.

We cannot continue to hypocritically turn a blind eye to violations of our immigration laws or tolerate the exploitation of workers within our borders. As is often the case, committing to enacting and enforcing laws that that reflect our values is not just the right thing to do, it ultimately serves the common good.”

Posted by: pat_k

[nonconformist]

64. That was excellent.

Thanks for sharing pat_k's post.

[Festivito]

63. What we'd want is to be fair. Problem is: R's HATE FAIRNESS.

We need to admit that we, as a nation, did not enforce our own laws and let people entrench themselves within our country.
They deserve our consideration.
It is only fair.

We also have a president, by hook or crook, who reduces our job supply. What do we propose for conditions: jobs aplenty, and jobs scarce, when deciding how and when to let workers into our country, now and in the future.

We have also allowed great disparity of wealth between persons in Mexico and in the U.S. which now is a problem for us.

(We have made a difficult bed in which we try to sleep.)

If we took into consideration various situations, many of which would clearly benefit us, others not so clearly; some residents having been here for decades making a living, raising families, some newly arrived but hard working. Some should be offered citizenship or residency, others probation, still others a return trip to Mexico.

If we did propose fairness, our countrymen would like it, but, R's would fight it into failure.
So what good would a REAL, un-straw-manned discussion be?

[BR_Parkway]

66. 99% agree with everything you posted - but it's already a felony to

hire illegals - it's just not enforced.

You hear news/see MSM stories about ICE doing roundups and busting all these people working at a plant without papers - but the story never carrys any info about the business owner getting busted for hiring them. Make it cost more than they can potentially save by hiring illegally.

For the record, I previously owned a commercial drywall company - kept about 250 guys on the payroll - all legal - all at decent, living wages. And I never competed for a contract where the other companies were bidding less because they were saving so much on the labor, they just pocketed the difference themselves. They should be in jail for breaking the law.

[TahitiNut]

69. "Now, can we talk about this in a realistic, reasonable way?"

Judging from some of the responses, apparently not. Far too many DUers opt for the simple-minded ad hominem to serve a self-righteous and cartoonish posture rather than understand that the perennial assault on labor by those whose greed is unlimited is facilitated by dividing and conquering the people.

The commoditization of human beings is an evil that gave us slavery, prostitution, chattel, indentured servitude, child labor, off-shoring, out-sourcing, and illegal immigration.

The source of the 'illegal immigration' problem begins with the appalling neo-colonial economic system in the home countries of those emigres. Mexico, with a Gini Index of 53.1, has one of the most inequitable distribution of income of all the nations in the world - 13th worst out of 113 for which comparable measures are available. The United States, with a Gini Index of 45.0, is becoming a banana republic under the influence of exactly the same 'ownership class.' It should be no surprise that racism has infested Mexico (and the US) for centuries.

It's impossible to 'solve' a problem without first comprehending the nature of the problem. I've summarized the five-fold nature of the problem before, and the corresponding areas where policy changes are required (at http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/110). Unless and until the systemic economic issues (in both the US and Mexico) are adequately addressed, the problems will get worse, not better.

[EFerrari]

75. No one can dispute that greed will always

assail labor and in any way possible.

What is debatable is the efficacy of one segment of labor turning on the next lowest rung in the belief that it will benefit them in any way, or, that it is even possible at all, In reality, it will probably just displace a portion of a work force for a time and send capitol elsewhere for a time. Forget the spectacle of nationalism preening as if a nation were a static entity, ever. I think people in this discussion should take their own advice and begin to understand the situation.

For example, learn something about the history of the United States in Latin America. It has been preying on Latin America from the outset, up to and including enforcing neo-colonialism on entire populations. In all likelihood, that is the real source of illegal immigration from that region. Learn something about the fundamental fragility of the American middle class. These two areas would be reasonable, if uncomfortable, places to begin to understand what is happening to American labor in a very specific way.

I don't know how one would go about learning something about the unselfconscious sense of American entitlement without somehow stepping outside of it. That seems to be a much more difficult task.

[TahitiNut]

77. Well, we sure wouldn't want those people to become Communists

... would we? :evilgrin: The super-duper thing about illegal immigration is that it's only the ones with strong backs and good legs who get across. Great workers and we sure don't want them being part of a revolution, right? Great system.

[EFerrari]

109. You might like a chapter in Joan Didion's last book

about a middle class hood that went up and went down via a defense contract. She does a good job: "Where I was from".

And we must fight Communism at any cost. :evilgrin:

[nonconformist]

78. Ahh, but there's the rub.

A certain amount of self-entitlement is what causes people to rise up and demand rights, change and fairness. The entire middle class movement was based on the principle that people deserved to be treated humanely and paid fairly for their work.

Everything in moderation, of course. But when did it become unreasonable for Americans to demand a certain standard of living?

[sadiesworld]

88. Isn't that really the oddness of the whole thing?

At the end of the day, aren't the globalists and borderless world proponents really saying that you have no right to expect/demand anything beyond what the most wretched have? That's not politics, that's religion. It's anti-thetical to representative government and contrary to human nature.

It seems that some are arguing that the needs of citizens of other countries take precedence over our own. This type of thinking baffles me. For example, I expect my governor to concentrate on the problems in MY state (granted I live in KY and he's an ass). I don't think he should be overly concerned with the available opportunities and problems in other states. That certainly doesn't mean I don't give a shit about people in other states, but I vote based upon what is best for MY community

Similarly, my neighbor is a perfectly nice guy, but that doesn't mean I think my husband should give him his job. Nor does this gentleman have the keys to our house (Dubai ports deal).

There's something particularly mind-blowing about all of this. How has this come to pass? Any thoughts?

[nonconformist]

89. I also live in KY, so I feel you there

It is a pretty amazing phenomenon, isn't it? Honestly, I think that people have become just too damn complacent - spoiled, even, in thinking that our way of life in America could never possibly change dramatically. I think they're tossing logic and historic precedent aside in favor of unrealistic, holier-than-thou idealism.

[TahitiNut]

99. It's human nature.

It's the same reason airlines must remind passengers to put on their own oxygen masks before assisting another, even their child. It's the same reason that lifeboat 'captains' must limit the number of people and use force, if necessary, to prevent it from being overloaded.

At one time, it was pretty well understood that we had the greatest ability to help other peoples if we maintained our own economy and democracy. The US has accepted more immigrants per capita than any other nation in the last 50-75 years.

The numbers make it clear. There are over 20 million Mexican citizens living in the US, about half legally. We're not even talking about naturalized US citizens or children of immigrants. We're talking citizens of Mexico. That's one-sixth of all Mexican citizens. If it were only one-tenth or one-twelfth of all Mexican citizens, that'd be enormous! No other country has such a large expatriate population. Not even close. (The US has about 1 million expatriates living abroad.) No other country is host to another country's citizens to such a degree. Not even close. Xenophobia? Bullshit. Racism? Bullshit. Do many Americans suffer from these maladies. Certainly. But there is no other area (other than military spending) where the US has been more of a leader. It's insane to say 'no limits.' The corporatists just love it. More cheap labor.

[EFerrari]

108. I guess that depends on what "certain" means and at what

cost to the rest of the planet.

But, I'm showing my socialist slip.

Peace, nonconformist. I appreciate your thread and realize this topic is making me see red.

That's red, not Red.

:)

[nonconformist]

127. Peace, sfexpat!

:hi:

[Martin Eden]

80. Great Post ... the American Middle Class is at stake

IN-sourcing drives down wages just as OUT-sorcing does.

I have compassion for destitute people who come across our borders illegally to find a better life, but I value more highly the well-being of American citizens and the role of the Middle Class in sustaining the freedoms and democracy of this country.

The world is full of destitute people. We can't take them all in. If we did nothing to control our borders and enforce the law, our standard of living will move towards that of the countries these people are fleeing.

[DanCa]

83. I want a job any job

I have young onset parkinsons and I hate not having anyone willing to hire me. I hate being put on disability so that my medical bills are taken care of . I hate reaching into my pocket pulling out my wallet and not seeing any green because I can't find an employer willing to take a chance on me. I will gladly do any job that any America wont do.

PS. The whole solution of immigration is beyond but I know that the majority of those opposed to immigration is not racist. I am so sorry that people choose to attack people on that route.

[nonconformist]

84. I'm so sorry, Dan

:hug:

[FredStembottom]

90. I agree 100% and thank you

I especially appreciate you pointing out the racist aspect of the "jobs Americans won't do" line.

I could say a million things but let me say a little tag line I have used on blue-collar conservatives for decades now: There are those who will use your own cherished beliefs to take you down.

It's time now to point that out to Liberals. We may be a nation of immigrants. It sure is a cherished belief of ours that immigrants are welcome here. But to hold that cherished belief too tightly opens the door (or border) to those who will use it to wipe us out.

Open borders is just as destructive as Free Market capitalism. Whereas controlled, systematic immigration as well as controlled, regulated capitalism keeps the entire machine humming right along.

Folks, it's a lot like keeping a gasoline engine going - it's only a certain, precise _mixture_ of air and fuel that keep it going. Open borders, guest workers and amnesties are like trying to run that engine on nearly pure air. Free Market capitalism is like trying to run it on pure fuel. One dilutes it to a stop the other "enriches" it to a stop.

But stop is what it does do!

And, on edit, everybody see reply #37. The existance of the 11 millions here already dictates some sort of phase-in to any plan to fine employers. No question.

[mzmolly]

91. "the cheap labor movement" Good description.

I grew up much like you Nonconformist.

I knew loads of people who were on welfare and other government programs. Many were discouraged because they wanted to work, but many of the jobs they could find were not only low paying - but lacked essential benefits like health care. So, as a single parent or a struggling family one often had to choose between health care and NOT working or no health care and a job.

I would like to add that we have "Mexican microcosm" in every city across this nation and the people who live their are struggling for "a better life" - but there is no magical border to cross, they are already here.

Further, with China taking Mexico's jobs the issue is not going anywhere fast:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011231/greider

"In Mexico, the manufacturing wage level rose a bit in the last couple of years and is now around $1.50 an hour. In China, it is 20-25 cents an hour. After NAFTA, Mexico's manufacturing base expanded robustly year after year--except that most new factories are located in the maquiladora export zones along the US border and in the interior, essentially separate from the Mexican economy and largely producing components for US multinationals. Yet Mexico may already have peaked as an emerging player in global manufacturing. Its manufacturing base is now shrinking, due first to the US recession but also because the factories are leaving. American companies that were cheerleaders for NAFTA back in 1993 are shutting down and moving to greener--that is, cheaper--pastures. An American source in multinational business explained the trend: "When you consider the wage difference, moving the factory, which was usually leased anyway, or moving the more value-added product lines is a veritable no-brainer, if you want to increase profits. I expect this to intensify over the next few years, leaving considerable excess capacity and unemployment, particularly in northern Mexico but also in Central and South America, and the Caribbean."

[Klukie]

95. This post speaks to me and for me!!!

Thank-you for your very reasonable and thoughtful views. I truly think many folks feel the same.

[stepnw1f]

101. Well Said...

[snappyturtle]

102. K&R......

I agree with what you have said.....I have a few questions though....to add to your post about the impossiblity of amnesty:the reasons whiy I think amnesty can't work:

1) Who's going to oversee the illegals "turning themselves in?" Who will tell them? Will signs be posted in places they frequent? Will employers do it? (I think we all know the answer to that one!)Why would the illegals set themselves up for a fine and learning English when if they do nothing, they can exist as they have been?

2) Enforcement? Is this going to be paid by state or the Federal gov't.? It's going to cost big time and I bet that it will be "handled" like the Real I.D. Act. That's going to be interesting.

Over-all, the immigration issue keeps all the "underlings" (us) so busy scrambling for answers and jobs that we don't see "other" matters.,,,,,,wonder what Rummy, Cheney, et. al. are doing behind our backs while this nationwide discussion is going on? Any ideas?

[earth mom]

103. Excellent post!

:yourock:

[megatherium]

107. Great post! If Democrats argue that concern about illegal immigration

is misplaced, or racist, etc -- the American public will conclude that the Democrats support illegal immigration. This would be bad come 2008.

And beyond all the vivid anecdotes, the inescapable fact is that illegal immigration does lower wages (as mentioned the other day by Paul Krugman in the NY Times).

[yella_dawg]

110. This IS about racism.

Those worst hurt by wage dilution are the traditional poor in this country. Black, Hispanic, any anyone else who struggles with "Not Like Us" status. The illegals who are most sought after are those who come to work a few years and return to their home economy with a raised economic status. (Those who work cheapest 'cuz their supporting families outside the US economy.) Those brown people work in slave conditions a few years, then go away. Perfect solution.

Awesome rant, by the way.

[hang a left]

113. One of the best posts ever.

Thanks for spelling it out. I have bookmarked your post. Excellent ammunition. Hats off.

[theHandpuppet]

116. Thank you for one of the best posts I've read on this subject

I'm giving this one a recommendation.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

121. This is a wonderfully insightful & well-written post! Kick & Rec. n/t

[ContraBass Black]

123. "Can we cut through all the straw man bullshit"

Recent history says no.

[The_Casual_Observer]

124. America has been weakened to the point where this is a burning issue

It was never much of an issue before. America is on it's knees and bleeding.

[nolabels]

125. Yep, yep, yep, that's the story

These kind of things would have never happened if some wouldn't have been so temperamental. You and me and the rest of we are going to pay the price for it now. The scoundrels have shipped many jobs overseas, and left us many here to fight over the the few scraps and crumbs that are left.

Them rich bastards don't even care I might add, they are just laughing their way to the bank

[bee]

132. Best post Ive read in a long time.

:applause: