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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:04 AM
Original message
American hostage is accused of treason by some conservatives
An article in the Telegraph from the UK considers the issue of American journalist and recently freed hostage Jill Carroll and why the Conservatives are attacking her. One of those attacks was for wearing a Burka when she was released and before leaving Iraq.

One conservative blogger even called this behavior "treason."

What is the difference between this American freelance journalist and a prison of war?

The captive soldier is held as an enemy combatant. We have tortured our Iraqi war prisoners.

This American civilian hostage, in an attempt to promote America's First Amendment free press in a war zone that we started, was berated and humiliated by her captors, but she was not tortured.

Hmm...

I'm not surprised that there are people willing to make their prejudicial comments public, insulting her for respecting the culture where she was at the time. Remember, she was trying to be inconspicuous when she was in Iraq. As a woman with sensitivity and intelligence would do, she wore traditional Muslim clothing where such a custom was expected of women.

Now, maybe you are a woman who has visited this type of culture. Did you wear a headscarf? Many do. The journalist Yvonne Riddley, who was raised in England singing in the church choir, found herself captured by the Taliban. You should read her story. She converted to Islam and now works for Al Jazeera, which is a representation of free press ideals in the Muslim world and based in Dubai, of the Dubai Ports scandal that Bush supported so strongly as trusted friends.

Still, others don't agree with this behavior. Take Condaleeza Rice and Karen Hughes, who met with Eleanor Smeal, president of the Feminist Majority, to discuss developing US policy so that the issue of returning women to equal status under the law would be a nonnegotiable issue in forming any new government in Iraq. (Read the Time article about Burkas for more.)

I don't believe there's anything to be ashamed of by refusing to wear a burka while in these fundamentalist cultures.

In the church I grew up in, which was fundamentalist Christian in the extreme and proudly so to this day, there was a time when a woman could not wear pants to church or mutilate her body by piercing her ears. That was an enforced custom, punishable by shunning from the community. Nobody would have tortured someone for such behavior, but she certainly would have been shunned.

To be fair, men had appearance restrictions as well, such as tattoos and piercings. However, exceptions were made because of the redemption of being baptized and the desire to increase membership. Men raised in the church didn't qualify for such exceptions.

In Muslim countries, these communities are larger than they were where I grew up. The US had communities of this size, with laws enforcing dress codes and corporal ethics, just 3 generations ago. That's my grand and great-grandparents.

If a Pakistani had come to town, the gentleman would have worn clothing appropriate to our culture. Think Ali Hakim in the musical Oklahoma!

In 387 AD, St. Augustine traveled outside his religious culture and discovered that the citizens of Milan did not fast on the Sabbath (Saturday). Concerned about what he should do, he wrote to the head of the Roman Church in Milan, St. Ambrose, who replied, "When I am at Rome, I fast on a Saturday; when I am at Milan, I do not. Follow the custom of the Church where you are." This wise philosophy for Christian travelers became an English idiom - when in Rome, do as the Romans.

Why? Out of respect. I had my ear pierced in college - a rebellious act that I recall fondly in spite of the social pangs it caused, which were few and isolated to just a few individuals that I knew. But, I knew that this type of behavior wasn't accepted in my family's home. And so, out of respect, I never wore any ear jewelry when I was visiting my family. This decision was definitely passive, because the real problem was the piercing itself, not the jewelry. I guess I didn't have the courage of other women in my generation who forced their community to deal with these issues by confronting them head on with the church elders, and winning their case. Instead, I depended on my theory that these cultural norms were so threatened by the revelations of the cultural revolution of the 60s and 70s that advocates would rather stay silent about their dissent rather than risk more confrontations. And, I was right.

My point in this little story is that fundamentalist and religious norms that are truly cultural prejudices and injustices are resolved within their own community. Anyone outside that community has no influence whatsoever. An outsider who wishes to visit and has an invitation to do so would be wise to respect the local customs, even if they seem odd or unjust.

And, I'll go one step further. A visitor to one of these cultures has a moral obligation to either conform or stay at home.

Doesn't that sound like the way Jesus would behave?
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samsingh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. those conservatives are the treasonous scum
and why aren't they in iraq fighting the war they wanted so badly?
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds like they pulled that quote from FR
sounds like a freeper to me.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
3. Wearing a Burka is treasonous?
Wow since when?
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Interesting that the freepers didn't jump on the female
reporters and such that have gone over there and worn the traditional dress of the region. I believe Diane Sawyer did that when she was over there. I don't recall anyone calling her a traitor for that.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Diane Sawyer, that's who I remember seeing in a Burka
Edited on Mon Apr-03-06 02:17 AM by keopeli
She was in Afghanistan.

Diane gets all of the good Bush and Cheney interviews.

Here's her interview with Carrie Fischer on Oxygen.

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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
4. I gotta believe they'll back off that now.
Since she has made some very strong statements about her captors.

I'm sure she truly loves and respects the Iraqi people, but I can't see her going back. Her repudiation of the propaganda video would likely be a death sentence.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. If any of them is ever in a position to be taken hostage
I'll care what they think about it. Until then, they can drink a big steaming mug of shut the fuck up!

How dare they? When they bother to show the courage she showed to begin with...well, maybe then I'll give a damn what they think.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
7. You left out the fact that as far back as the 60's women in
many xian Church's were looked down on for not wearing a scarf or hat during church services. In truth, the xian faith used to call it sinful for women to have bare heads in the church. That started changing in the 1950's and 1960's.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The best in Christian headcoverings.

www.headcoverings.com

This seems like a really nice family. I found their website on Google and read through their lovely bio. They seem like true entrepreneurs and seem to have experienced some success in their endeavor to sell headcoverings online.

Now, I can imagine meeting these people on the street and being quite pleasantly enamored by them. Much in the way I experience people from countries all over the world, I would probably want to find them as a tourist needing directions. How they would love to engage with me about the religious convictions that their headcoverings represent.

I would be most interested in discussing their abundance of tolerance for people who claim to be Christians like them but who do not practice this belief.

Having met a few people in my life that practice covering their heads, my instinct is that they would demure to God to pass judgment.

What a lovely concept! Christian tolerance!

I might even exchange some emails with them and offer to fix up that website of theirs. You see, I have no problem at all with people who live their lives exactly the way they want. And I have no problem with them talking about their beliefs with other interested people.

In fact, I'd love to learn more about the micro-cultures of America.

Hey, wikipedia!

(Take that, Brittanica!)


kudos mrcheerful
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darkmaestro019 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. What was she supposed to wear?
I'm not clear on whether she was dropped off IN the burka or what, but somehow I can't imagine people who took me hostage letting me grab my suitcases full of Western clothes, or frequently wash what she probably went in with--the clothes on her back. And if I'd just been through that I think I'd do damn near anything to get out safely and a very good way to do that would be NOT TO CALL ATTENTION TO ONESELF. You know. Like dressing in a way that would attract less local attention. Like a burka.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. What was she supposed to wear?
Now that's an image that makes me laugh! A released hostage asking for her Western clothes. I can see it now, South Park does Paris Hilton as a journalist taken hostage and demanding her clothes!
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yes, really.
Would they have liked it better if she ripped off the burka and was buck nekkid! :banghead: They're so fucking stupid!
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kevinbgoode Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 04:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. oh puh-leeze....wingnuts claim EVERYONE is a traitor
unless they fit into the mold of some little white American straight male fundamentalist "christian" jihadist who is at war with everything from Christmas to the airing of the word "s*it" on a NASCAR road rally. One would think most Americans have figured out by now who the real traitors are. . .
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. It might be easier if they submitted a list of who's NOT a traitor.
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. Was she wearing a burqa or a hijab?
The footage I saw was of her wearing a hijab. Two very different things...
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. indeed they are ... she wore the latter
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KitchenWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thanks for the clarification
I wish our press was this observant of the difference.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. I stand corrected. Apparently, Sawyer was wearing a hijab.
Edited on Mon Apr-03-06 05:26 AM by keopeli
I'm a novice on that topic.

And, despite some internet searches, I couldn't find a photo of Sawyer in her hijab. If anyone knows of one on the internet, let me know.

More info here.

The less modest yet polite hijab she wore was difficult to control, as I recall.

Still, Sawyer described it as weighing over 10 pounds, which is heavier than a human head. I imagine it was quite awkward.

Thanks KitchenWitch/AtomicKitten
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SeattleGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Thanks for the info, keopeli
When I did my post about her wearing a burkha, I thought, hmmmm, that may not be right. But still, she was showing somne respect for the country she was visiting.
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Virginia Dare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. Judge not, lest ye be judged...n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. Going against the constitution
is the real definition of treason, not one's opinions or capture or mode of dress. America is divided and its new government requires loyalty to its leaders, not the constitution, which in some ways, could be considered treason in itself.
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keopeli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-03-06 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Spot on, mmonk. nt
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