Legalise Marijauna Follow-up Question:

[Random_Australian]

If marijauna were to be legalised (And as an Aussie that's not a typo):

Should there be a restriction in the potency of the marijauna? For instance, where I lived until just recently had such potent stuff that coming out of a high was rather nasty; the No. 1 reason for ambulance callouts was to attend youth suicide attempts, in fact. (Majority, not all attempts involved marijauna; yes, it was an unpleasant place too)

Given that these potencies were acheived through simple hydroponics/selection/changing of smoking habits, and that they were no longer anywhere near as harmless as the original stuff (Yes, the second point is not a given. I'll argue it if I must), my concern (and what this post is to argue about) is that if legalisation were to occur, especially for non-private use, that people would seek these greater potencies (they have a better high), and thus do a great deal of damage to society, ie. by creating conditions similar to said place of residence.

The poll is to see what you think about potency restrictions.
Then we can argue whether or not it would lead to bad stuff happening.

***Notice*** the point of the argument is to find and overcome problems in this debate, such that we might find a widely palatable arguement/solution. If there is a consensus as to allowable levels, we will argue over enforcement.

So, in law, what should be the range of allowed potency?

(I would read all the choices before selecting one, it can otherwise get a bit misleading, ;))

[darkmaestro019]

1. I voted for natural levels, but I must say

that varies depending on how the plant is grown and what strain it is. Getting better fertilizer, growing with liquid medium instead of dirt (that's hydroponics) and crossbreeding are all commonly used in farming all sorts of things. I'd qualify "as nature intended" as excluding things like genetic manipulation and extracting THC from a lot of marijuana down onto a little marijuana.

[Random_Australian]

2. What if someone managed to really really up the amount,

using those methods (Actually, they have, about 50-60 times is the record, I think, but it is hard to tell), and remember, from the OP that high levels of THC can cause the effects of marijauna to change and become more similar to harder drugs/do more damage.

Do you:

A) Have a viewpoint not mentioned below (I do try to guess what people think)
B) Contend that high levels of THC aren't so bad.

If not, then how could it be controlled?

[darkmaestro019]

37. I think it should be labelled as such.

I contend that high levels of THC are not bad. Higher proofs of alcohol are labelled as such; people who don't want to get destroyed with two shots drink beer instead.

And anecdotally, I've been hearing this stuff most of my life "Now the weed is super strong!" and in all my taste tests, I have encountered varying strengths, but nothing whatsoever like the difference in effect by amount used that we seem to be told exists. Meaning, sometimes a bowl gets you buzzy, sometimes a bowl plants your ass on the couch staring at the TV, but never have I smoked ANY and been "suicidal when coming down"

Though I bet you can get much better weed outside of the States : ) I suspect it is GREATLY exaggerated as a splintering crutch for those who wish to keep this plant illegal. To the best of my reading there is no lethal level of THC.

I suggest clear labelling of the percentage of THC. Oh yes, but that would require it be legal and regulated. (drags himself out of fantasy-land)

If I had my choice, I'd probably buy the highest THC possible (well, one hit plus hitting the carpet is a bit much, lol) If I could hit the state I wish to be in with ONE HIT in a tiny onehitter instead of bowl after bowl, I'd much prefer to spare my lungs the excess smoke.

EDIT: Stupid MSM has ME putting quotes around things that don't need them.

[Random_Australian]

41. Note please: Weed allows people to cope with the other shite

that is so wrong in quite a few lives back there.
The only two at-risk groups are the dependants (Do you get many? Note: That question for curiosity only, I do not think I know the answer) and those whose lives are unpleasant already.

My fear that if MJ were to be made legal, then those who are bieng brought down by their problems would use it as escapism, dangerous for any substance but more so for pot due the faster change.

I should like to point out I do not think that legalising MJ would cause people everywhere to jump of bridges on inject bleach into their veins. Just pointing out that with potent stuff, unpleasant reactions can occur. Therefore the poll which will give me some good ideas of what others think.

[WePurrsevere]

Is there a scientific way to measure the potency of specific MJ plants?

Perhaps up to a certain potency could be legal for recreational use (for those over 18 yrs) with the higher potency stuff, perhaps needed for medical use, could be purchased with a prescription.

It would be interesting to see what other legal restrictions DUers feel should be in place when it is legal again. B-)

[Random_Australian]

14. It's a little difficult, but if it's wild, it's easy.

Human intervention messes things up.

Personally, I would contend 25 years min age.... that's when the brain finishes the re-wiring process started in teenage years.

[WePurrsevere]

30. Definately agree ie human intervention. 25 might be ok but...

looking back 20+ years to my pre-25 yr old mind set... maybe we should also consider extending that concept to other things that our still short circuiting brains may influence or be influenced by like drinking alcohol, getting married, having children and joining the military. ;)

Seriously though... I've only gotten a really good high from MJ a few times in my life (and that was many years ago)... most of the time all I experienced was feeling very mellow, getting the munchies and being umm.. "hot". The last time I however I did experience a mild depression with a crying jag while coming down... I figured that since I was going through some very heavy life stuff at the time it probably was mostly coming from there but it made me a lot more wary of using it. Thinking back on that experience I can see how for some who suffer from serious depression (and/or have access to stronger stuff) it could potentially cause suicidal feelings.

[darkmaestro019]

38. That's true, but that's INSANELY true about alcohol

re, that it can dangerously magnify other mental difficulties (from outright illness to life-stress)

And anyone can buy alcohol anywhere, pretty much, once you hit the magic age and have some money in your pocket.

[WePurrsevere]

43. That's true about alcohol. I'm not sure about more or less so then MJ.

Both tend to remove our social "masks". They tone down or outright remove our inhibitions and sometimes to the point where we toss social "norms" out the door.

As you mentioned the big thing with alcohol is that in our country it's more easily available then MJ. This is something that I've always found rather silly since from all that I've seen alcohol can potentially do a LOT more damage to the human body and mind. I've never lost a loved one or friend to MJ use... I have to alcohol (and may lose my brother to it next). :(

[Misunderestimator]

3. I really would like to see statistics from ANYWHERE where youth suicide

attempts are caused by marijuana. No matter the potency, I've never heard of such a thing. Suicide? And coming "out of a high" being nasty? That seems pretty far-fetched.

I could only offer my opinion after being shown some evidence that a higher potency is actually a problem. Heresay doesn't do it for me.

[Random_Australian]

7. Meh. If you could reach the local mental health hospitals

and ambulance services over the net, I'd give you a link.

Don't forget two things:
A) Other factors making people both more susceptible to depression and more likely to act on suicidal impulses (However, marijauna dependency has contributed to this, which is 2/3 my point)

B) Dosage involved. People have rooms set aside for the activity; smoking stuff way more potent for many hours a day, (frequency varies, from just once per blue moon when you're about 14 to every day for the dependants)

Note: I am talking about the place with the highest concentration of marijauna in the entire world. Nimbin.

However, this is a pretty extreme example, but the point was with different usage patterns, you get unpredicted effects.

One last thing: I will say that this is a long way beyond what you will find in America... it is a huge problem in rural areas on the east coast + inland here.

Trust me, the high is very high, coming out of it induces depression.
One last thing: Strangely, I find myself on the other side of the 'gimme the evidence' question. How novel. I would ask that you not -though you've not so far- ridicule the idea. I have lost family and friends to this, so it is a very personal issue.... I am saying this merely as a precaution you understand, General Discussion can get..... heated.

As for stats, if I could get you the contacts, I would. In Australian regional areas, though, the internet is still not widespread.

[Misunderestimator]

9. You're right, I didn't ridicule anything.

Just asked for stats. It's hard to answer a theoretical question about something I've never seen nor seen evidence that supports. That's all. I guess such marijuana is not a problem at all here in the US, which is surprising to me, since we seem to get access to everything here. :)

[Random_Australian]

11. Yeah. It's really out of hand in the bush, but it's isn't hooked

up electronically, so I can't get you much.

And I usually can back myself up so well.... pity.
Not many services out there are capable of performing rea=search either. I do know that our mental institutions have way above normal amounts of patients, but, I don't know where to find electronic stuff to back that up.

Strange how you sometimes forget how different other peoples views on stuff is, whilst remaining entirely logical, simply because they have had such different experiences.

Basically, another view is that this is a place with many marijauna dependant people, like an alcoholicville, if you will.

Now I think of it, alcoholism is rampant too. People usually get drunk by age 14. Sad, sad place. I'm glad I'm out.

As for the access: That's precisely the reason... if people want stronger hits they move onto other drugs, it happens all the time in the rich communities here. The poorer have resorted to making marijauna closer to the hard drugs, making them dangerous.

I will have to find evidence in future, but this was a spur-of-the-moment addition to another poll.

Hmmmm... can you really not answer it as at least a hypothetical question in the interim?

[Misunderestimator]

19. Another concept I've never seen here...

Marijuana being a dependency. A habit yes, a dependency... I've never seen it. Interesting. I also know people who have smoked pot all their lives and never even tried any other drugs. I have a bad reaction to anyone saying that pot is a stepping stone to other drugs, because it simply isn't. No more than alcohol is.

Hypothetically? Sure, nature is probably always better.

[Random_Australian]

23. Hmmm, we get dependants, and lots of them.

Almost exclusively teenage. Seriously, when a person is taking that potent stuff and smoking as much as possible for seesions that span entire days, strange things happen... it's really scary how people change from social to can't live without... I *believe* that it is similar to alcohol dependancy, but that's just my idle speculation.

You're quite right about the stepping stone thing, by the way. You have the testimony of a person who's used to this stuff on your side. (If it looked like I said so before, that was misunderstanding)

What's your take on age limits? Technically, the brain fnishes re-wiring at 25 ;).

[Misunderestimator]

29. I think any drug (incl. marijuana) should not be accessible to children,

and the age limit should be the same as with alcohol. I'm no authority on any of this in any case, since I've never seen anyone with that level of drug or alcohol dependency. I don't smoke pot (though I won't say I haven't enjoyed it in the past) mainly because of health concerns (like any smoking) and because it's a waste of money. Alcohol... that's definitely more of a dependent drug and more difficult to control. It's something that I've let myself enjoy a bit too much during certain periods of my life, but which thankfully is not a problem for me now. Both are something I would not want teenagers to have much, if any, access to.

[Random_Australian]

33. That sounds about right. It's a real problem when teens get their

hands on enough of either. The main difference between the two is that while I would allow a teen t have, say, a glass of wine with a meal or whatever, I'd try to stop them getting to pot. The effects on teenage minds can be.... unpredicatable.

[Misunderestimator]

34. Yet which is worse really? I think alcohol is more addictive than pot.

I think BOTH should be kept from children.

[darkmaestro019]

40. Has anyone tested this marijuana that you experience as

"very, very strange?"

I DID smoke something that affected me very badly--once. And I felt it almost immediately, but it was NOT like a magnified THC-high. I suspect there was something else in it.

EDIT: which is why legal and regulated are my firm preferences. I wouldn't have to worry that some crazy stuff was in what I was smoking.

[darkmaestro019]

39. Bingo.

www.erowid.org is a fantastic place for all manner of info--from pro-marijuana to prohibitionists sources, too. (They are clearly not prohibitionists but they do try to present both viewpoints)

Last I heard some dolt in the UK declared that a young man was killed by THC because he was dead with THC in his system. I suspect the doc had an axe to grind or a bribe to earn. Previously you could say "Not one death has ever been conclusively blamed on marijuana" without a problem, so now they can dangle that ONE ridiculous case at us, I guess.

If you are suicidal already, it's not weed's fault. Alcohol, a mean remark, or the wrong song on the radio at the wrong time could trigger you.

[Random_Australian]

42. Aye, I had not counted on America not having MJ dependants.

But first: No, THC isn't lethal, in any quantities. (Unless you had something ridiculous, but hey too much water can kill you). If you thought I'd argued that, perhaps my posts were too ambigous.

Second: The people I've run into have much, much healthier attitudes towards use. Dependancy occurs back home when people spiral into it, especially from social factors.

Strange how different things are. Quite a few effects can be explained by the prevalent societies attitudes back home, however pot, and boredom, has lead to things getting rather out of hand. I realised this when PMing one of DU's resident 'persons of experience at either the present time or the past in related matters' sorry to out it that ungainly way, but it's a privacy thing. People just don't see pot the same way, as if it were a fun pastime (Which is fair enough, and sounds, on the whole, a good atitude to have). Also, in a society which -according to another poster- has more drugs available, the ones who are spiralling probably move on to other drugs, (but NOT because of the MJ, because of their own problems), whereas here weed's all there is. That also, I think, fueled the effort for potency.

Will check out the site.

[baby_mouse]

4. Ididn't vote, BUT

As I think that drugs are a health issue and shouldn't particularly be legislated against but legislated *around*, and none of them should be illegal as that just causes mess, I would have to answer in favour of whatever you can get out of them providing you can use them "responsibly", heh.

However, if you *are* going to legislate against them the legislation has to be worth something so I would aim for the "mother nature" / "purity" bit.

/2$

[mcscajun]

5. I voted for "natural levels" but would want labelling to indicate %

same as the alcohol contents in beers and wines.

[chicofaraby]

6. Not voting

This sounds like nonsense to me.

Pot doesn't make you commit suicide. Get real.

[Random_Australian]

8. Read post No. 7 before you say stuff like that. Show some respect. n/t

[chicofaraby]

I read post #7

Not impressed.

Have a nice day.

[Random_Australian]

13. It is absolutely fine to be unimpressed, but not to ridicule,

as was my point. I did say 'Show some respect' not 'Agree with my point of view'.

Ahh, well, oh well..... have a nice day too.... can't begrudge a person that.

[GDAEx2]

10. Cannabis contains many cannabinoids

THC being only one. The combinations of of these other cannabinoids (IMO) produce many of the characteristics of the high such as spaciness, energy level (both low E and high E levels), paranoia, exuberance etc.
Sounds like the Aussie weed you refer to may have more to do w/these other cannibinoids than overall potency.
Also remember that cannabis will often act as a mood intensifier.

<>

[Random_Australian]

12. Trial and error was the method, but I'm fairly certain that

the amount of THC is significantly higher.
I wouldn't be suprised if everything that was psychoactive was of higher concentration though... actually, only if it was on the particular gene the people were breeding for.

[GDAEx2]

15. No doubt that all psychoactive components were higher,

I just wanted to point out that there are other chemical compounds present that can affect the high. All in all this sounds pretty nasty.

[Random_Australian]

17. Aye, it is. That's why we have those suicide rates.

Good point, methinks. And perhaps an arguement against selective growing? (By increasing only the psychoactive components on the same gene, you would change the effect of the drug)

But how to enforce?

[GDAEx2]

22. A consumer driven market

would drive off the nasty stuff. Who would buy it if a nice variey that produced a more positive experience was available?

[Random_Australian]

28. Nasty stuff = Really intense high.

It may or may not be more pleasureable. But, it might be. If it is, you're certainly onto something!

[Buddyblazon]

16. The stuff i'm used to has astronomical amounts of THC...

and the price reflects it. We let an old neighborhood hippie burn with us. The next day, he couldn't shut up about how they NEVER got stuff like that in the 60's. Not even remotely close. He was amazed. Whenever I see him out in his yard, he always has to bring it up.

The way I look at it, I like it for the THC. Not the smoke. If they could figure out a way to grow nothing but THC...one giant crystalized lump...I'd be all for it.

There's no such thing as TOO much THC.

[Random_Australian]

18. but no vote for 'Synthesise THC'? Just kidding around. More seriously

What's your take on age limits? The effect on the teenage mind can be pretty scary!

[GDAEx2]

20. Legal age?

Put things into perspective for me, RA. What's the legal drinking age down under?

[Random_Australian]

26. Drink? 18. Consent at 16, marriage goes with drink at 18,

bikes on roads at 10, can get first car licence (Learners) at 16, second (Red Provisional) at 17, third (green provisional) at 19.
Out of curiosity, I know different states have different ages in the U.S., but what's the range?
(For drinking and first consent)

[GDAEx2]

32. Drink - 21...

drive - 16 (almost everywhere), consent varies, 18 most common I think.
I would place the legal age for pot at 19. Not sure why, just seems appropriate.

[Buddyblazon]

24. I think the legal age should be 21...

as studies show that if the brain is still developing, it will stop developing from the time that regular marijuana use begins.

I hear the major developement in the brain is over around 18...but I say 21 to be safe.

I started using at 14...but not regularly until about 19. I kind of wish I had waited a bit longer. 21 or over.

[Random_Australian]

31. Aye. 14 is the regular back there. The brain actually

completes the teenage development at 25 for most people. Strange that... 25 is so OLD! (Spoken like a true teenager. Before you ask, I'm 17 years old)

[Joe Fields]

21. Your argument is very suspect.

I would call it bullshit, but I am trying to be nice. I have had extensive experience with marijuana. I have been a long term mild user since 1970, and many of my friends and associates have smoked grass for many years. I have personally never had a "nasty" come-down from it, nor has anyone I have ever known spoken of such an experience. Ever! I have never wrecked a car from pot useage, nor has anyone I have ever known. In fact, we all drive safer, if anything. Pot useage has not scrambled my brains, or caused long or short-term memory loss. In fact, pot has had a medicinal value in my life, which I will not go into.

The hybrid strains which you speak of are strains that I am well acquainted with. As a longtime "expert" on the qualities of many strains, the hybrids are pure pleasure. They creat a more cerebral effect, without the headaches a smoker will experience from lesser quality strains, due to higher cannibanoid content. The higher the THC content, the lower the cannibanoid percentage.

The ambulance scenarios that you mention seem pure fantasy to me. Having been a member of the counter-culture for over three decades, I have not heard first, second or third hand information about anyone needing medical attention from pot useage, hybrid or no hybrid strains.

[Random_Australian]

25. Thanks for trying to be nice, first. I genuinely appreciate that.

Second: I don't think I have entirely described the context in the OP... just how out of hand this is getting. People were rather suprised in later posts.

A few questions: (If these are too personal, don't answer, it's fine by me :) )
Do you try to smoke as much as possible in a given time?
Do you regularly have sessions of over 6 hours?
Do you have other activities to do? (If this sounds like a strange question, the answer is yes... a main component of how early people start is due to boredom, thus the problem is in the bush rather than the city)
Did you start regular use between 14-15? Was it normal?

If these are too personal, don't worry. I'm busy gathering data, but it isn't as imprtant as keeping things civil on DU. I was just so used to what was happening back there that I hadn't realised others perspectives and experiences.

[Joe Fields]

27. PM me and I would be glad to share what I know.

I've already given away too much personal info on this forum.

[Random_Australian]

35. PM sent.

[Random_Australian]

36. I'm off to bed! I'll have to answer the questions to-morrow.

Nigh night DU!