'they fight out of loyalty to Army even if they think mission unrealistic

[bigtree]

KIRKUK, Iraq- Captain John McLaughlin's company of U.S. combat veterans has returned to Iraq. His paratroopers have brought far fewer illusions this time around, exchanging unalloyed enthusiasm for the war in Iraq in the spring of 2003 for a mix of professionalism, resignation and cynicism.

The enlisted men from the 101st Airborne Division now know much more about the country, confidently factoring in competing ethnic agendas as they navigate the claims of Kurds, Sunni Arabs, Shiites and Turkmens.

Most dismiss the debate over the merits of the war as irrelevant, many of them saying they fight out of loyalty to the U.S. Army even if they think its mission in Iraq is unrealistic. Most profess no love for Iraq or its people.

>>>>Some returning soldiers said that while they once believed they could quickly train the Iraqi police to replace U.S. troops, they have now set their sights much lower, hoping perhaps to set a decent example for police officers and soldiers they train but do not entirely trust.

full article: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/08/news/troops.php

Not much of a portrait of victory. The mercenary nature of the mission is disturbing. This is war for war's sake. There's little left of the high-minded rhetoric about protecting the US from WMD's, or spreading democracy, just blind loyalty to their military unit. The only purpose left for these soldiers in Iraq is to play their roles as political game pieces for their leaders back home. Training the Iraqis has become a futile exercise, rebuilding the country we bombed into a pre-industrial state has been all but abandoned, and the notion of our forces protecting Iraqis was a lie from the start and irrelevant in the face of our own collateral killing of innocents there.

As for the fate of our own forces, those who manage to make it home alive and in one piece from Iraq will have a difficult time distinguishing between the lawfulness and respect for human life that we struggle to maintain here at home from the anarchy and indifference they've learned to endure in this occupation. All of the rationalizing and lies from their leaders doesn't help. Here we go again with another generation of warriors who will expect the rest of us to understand those behaviors and justifications they picked up from war that we are loath to tolerate in our own ordered society.

And they don't even have John Wayne and his crew to clean it up for them. What we'll get are these imitations of Bush and Rumsfeld in their idiotic blustering about freedom and democracy, neither of which are reflection in Iraq of anything we defend here in America. I fully expect this attitude to trickle down to the conservative masses. They won't try to make things better. After all, they don't really like us. They'll just concern themselves with loyalty to the ruling authority.

Seig Heil!

[BillZBubb]

1. "debate over the merits of the war as irrelevant"

That is the most pathetic comment I've ever read from people who claim to be patriots. Their loyalty is to the army?????

[Kagemusha]

2. You just figured that out now? That's the whole point of the training.

Loyalty to the Army first is the whole point of the evangelical-style training methods introduced over 100 years ago.

[shoelace414]

3. they're loyality is to the others in their unit, as it needs to be.

[bigtree]

5. sure, that's expected

but, I'm reading more than that here. If we don't concern ourselves with the perspective of those we put at the point of our foreign policy we will be subject to the expression of those views when these men and women return home and insinuate themselves into our own democracy. Their perspective in Iraq is mostly shaped by their leaders who have misled them into a mission far outside of our constitution or conscience. They are absorbing the consequences of our illegal action and are forced to rationalize their involvement along the lines of the dishonest and reprehensible justifications given by those who sent and keep them there. This should disturb us. They are the product of Bush's abuse of our military. They are the instruments of our democracy. They are being molded into a neo-conservative mercenary force for their imperialism and expansionism. They not the province of one ideology, they are the denizens of our society of law, our nation of justice, and they are being forced into untenable actions that are contrary to our nation's basic principles of liberty. Their loyalty should be to each other, and then to the tenants of decency and democracy that they would expect to live under.

[jwirr]

7. They are not saying that it is not important to the nation.

They are saying that they as enlisted men and women have sworn to uphold the missions of their leaders. When a Vietnam vet said that "a Marine obeys his/her commanding officer" I looked him in the face and said, "Yes, and that is exactly why we private citizens have the moral obligation and duty to make sure that our leaders do not sent you to illegal and corrupt wars." By protesting this war we are supporting that soldier while he keeps his vow. To him the vow is his job. Protesting the war is ours.

[bigtree]

11. to a large degree you're right. that's their code,

I just don't think we should be sanguine about a force of Americans engaged in the worst of actions forced to carry out such a corrupt mandate. While recognizing that every soldier is responsible for their own conduct and views, I can also understand that they have to deal with this untenable situation they've been put in the best they can. What concerns me is the mindset that we have ratified with this political deployment which has nothing to do with our national security. There is so much wrong with the mission that the very basic rationales that soldiers have to use to carry on are the same rationales that should be challenged.

I agree that there is little tolerance over there for troop dissent, but I worry about the mindset of this generation of warriors that will extend beyond their present theater of operations as accepting of this imperialism they are charged with. This mindset comes to them from their commanders who are doing their best to carry on with Bush's agenda, and it translates down to these soldiers under their command and become callous and insensitive influences on their intentions and actions.

It's impossible not to hold the troops accountable for their attitudes, despite an acknowledgment that the primary blame lies with their leaders and with those of us at home who keep them in their untenable mess with our support of the war, or our inaction. I don't think Fascism began with a military force of evil soldiers. I think they were corrupted by their leaders. That didn't make the corrupt actions and attitudes of those who fought for and defended that system and its agenda any less wrong.

[mike_c]

4. the war is a violation of international law and U.S. treaty...

...which was U.S. law by Article Six of the U.S. Constitution. So now loyalty to the Army trumps their oath to defend and protect the Constitution? That's a very bad prescription for fascist militarism. Your pic is exactly appropriate.

[bigtree]

6. what becomes of our forces as Bush pushes forward with his stated agenda

to democratize the Middle East? That type of use of our military can only descend into blind obedience since the mandate would fall far outside of any reasonable or lawful intent for our forces. Congress has to step up and set the parameters or the Executive will exaggerate his own authority in line with his own partisan ambitions. The military, at least initially, will follow. Eventually, you would hope even they step forward and insist on some adherence to their original mandate as a defensive force and reject this political militarism.

[LynnTheDem]

8. Fascist militarism is exactly what we have.

We're now a nation that officially tortures people. We're a nation of people that the government officially secretly spies on.

We're a nation that invaded and occupied an innocent nation that had been doing nothing whatsoever to anyone.

We're a nation that flouts not only international laws and signatory treaties, but our own Constitution.

We're the enemy.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

10. Oh PULLEEESE!!!

Don't even try that bullshit here. DUers are way too educated for that crap you're spewing. Try turning off the bullshit Faux Moos and learning some FACTS.

Good grief how do they manage to live beyond puberty when they're so fucking ignorant???!

[mike_c]

12. your response is so brilliantly ascerbic that I really regret...

...not being able to see the deleted post that inspired such a righteous arse-drubbing! :rofl:

[LynnTheDem]

13. LOL!!!

The usual ignorant been-under-a-rock-the-past-4-years rightwingnut bullshit; bush didn't rush the troops to war (no, he kicked the weapons inspectors out coz of them mushroom clouds :eyes: ) Hussein evil monster madman threat TERRA TERRA TERRA blah blah blah.

That stupid prick should sit for 10 hours a day for a few days and track the dead Americans who died because of bush's rushing our troops to an illegal unjust immoral war of aggression to their deaths; better yet, bring one of my dead friends back to life and let that MFer go to Iraq and die for his little lying MFing CSing bush.

Ya know, I do believe the MFing ignorant snivelling little yellow-belly bullshit prick rightwingnut morans are beginning to piss me the fuck off...

Heh.

[ComerPerro]

14. BushCo is an administration of lowered expectations and standards

They continue to lower the bar until it becomes within reach.