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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:12 AM
Original message
Attack on Iran: A Looming Folly
This has not been edited and isn't done yet, so please don't forward it to anyone until I post the final truthout link. Thanks. I'd be interested to hear what you think of this analysis.

===

The wires have been humming since before the New Year with reports that the Bush administration is planning an attack on Iran. “The Bush administration is preparing its NATO allies for a possible military strike against suspected nuclear sites in Iran in the New Year, according to German media reports, reinforcing similar earlier suggestions in the Turkish media,” reported UPI on December 30th.

“The Berlin daily Der Tagesspiegel this week,” continued UPI, “quoted ‘NATO intelligence sources’ who claimed that the NATO allies had been informed that the United States is currently investigating all possibilities of bringing the mullah-led regime into line, including military options. This ‘all options are open’ line has been President George W Bush's publicly stated policy throughout the past 18 months.”

An examination of the ramifications of such an attack is desperately in order.

1. Blowback in Iraq

The recent elections in Iraq were dominated by an amalgam of religiously fundamentalist Shi’ite organizations, principally the Dawa Party and the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI). Both Dawa and SCIRI have umbilical connections to the fundamentalist Shi’ite leadership in Iran which go back decades. In essence, Iran now owns a significant portion of the Iraqi government.

Should the United States undertake military action against Iran, the ramifications in Iraq would be immediate and extreme.

In the first eight days of January, eighteen US troops have been killed in Iraq, compounded by another twelve deaths from a Blackhawk helicopter crash on Saturday. Much of the violence aimed at American forces is coming from disgruntled Sunni factions which have their own militias, which believe the last elections were a sham, and which hold little political power in the government.

If the US attacks Iran, it is probable that American forces – already taxed by attacks from Sunni factions – will also face reprisal attacks in Iraq from Shi’ite factions loyal to Iran. The result will be a dramatic escalation in US and civilian casualties, US forces will be required to bunker themselves further into their bases, and US forces will find themselves required to fight the very government they just finished helping into power. Iraq, already a seething cauldron, will sink further into chaos.

2. Iran’s Armaments

Unlike Iraq, Iran has not spent the last fifteen years having its conventional forces worn down by grueling sanctions, repeated attacks and two American-led wars. While Iran’s conventional army is not what it was during the heyday of the Iran-Iraq war – their armaments have deteriorated and the veterans of that last war have retired - the nation enjoys substantial military strength nonetheless.

According to a report issued by the Center for Strategic and International Studies in December of 2004, Iran “has some 540,000 men under arms and over 350,000 reserves. They include 120,000 Iranian Revolutionary Guards trained for land and naval asymmetrical warfare. Iran's military also includes holdings of 1,613 main battle tanks, 21,600 other armored fighting vehicles, 3,200 artillery weapons, 306 combat aircraft, 60 attack helicopters, 3 submarines, 59 surface combatants, and 10 amphibious ships.”

“Iran is now the only regional military power that poses a significant conventional military threat to Gulf stability,” continued the CSIS report. “Iran has significant capabilities for asymmetric warfare, and poses the additional threat of proliferation. There is considerable evidence that it is developing both a long-range missile force and a range of weapons of mass destruction. It has never properly declared its holdings of chemical weapons, and the status of its biological weapons programs is unknown.”

A MILNET brief issued in February 2005 reports, “Due to its position astride the Persian Gulf, Iran has constantly been a threat to the Gulf. The so called ‘Tanker’ wars in the late 1980s put Iran squarely in the bullseye of all nations seeking to transport oil out of the region. Even the small navy that Iran puts to sea is capable enough to harass shipping, and several cases of small boat operations against oil well heads in the Gulf during that period made it clear small asymmetrical tactics of the Iranian Navy could be quite effective.”

“More concerning,” continued the MILNET brief, “is the priority placed on expanding and modernizing its Navy. The CSIS report cites numerous areas where Iran has funded modernization including the most troublesome aspect, anti-shipping cruise missiles: ‘Iran has obtained new anti-ship missiles and missile patrol craft from China, midget submarines from North Korea, submarines from Russia, and modern mines.’”

It is Iran’s missile armaments that pose the greatest concern for American forces in the Gulf, especially for the US Navy. Iran’s coast facing the Persian Gulf is a looming wall of mountains that look down upon any naval forces arrayed in those waters. The Gulf itself only has one exit, the Strait of Hormuz, which is also dominated by the mountainous Iranian coastline. In essence, Iran holds the high ground in the Gulf. Missile batteries arrayed in those mountains could raise bloody havoc with any fleet deployed below.

Of all the missiles in Iran’s armament, the most dangerous is the Russian-made SS-N-22 Sunburn. These missiles are, simply, the fastest anti-ship weapons on the planet. The Sunburn can reach Mach 3 at high altitude. Its maximum low-altitude speed is Mach 2.2, some three times faster than the American-made Harpoon. The Sunburn takes two short minutes to cover its full range. The missile’s manufacturers state that one or two missiles could cripple a destroyer, and five missiles could sink a 20,000 ton ship. The Sunburn is also superior to the Exocet missile. Recall that it was two Exocets which ripped the USS Stark to shreds in 1987, killing 37 sailors. The Stark could not see them to stop them.

The US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt is currently deployed in the Persian Gulf, with some 7,000 souls aboard. Sailing with the Roosevelt is the Tarawa Expeditionary Strike Force, which includes the USS Tarawa, the USS Austin, and the USS Pearl Harbor. The USS Austin is likewise deployed in the Gulf. The Sunburn missile, with its incredible speed and ability to avoid radar detection, would wreak bloody havoc on these ships if Iran chooses to retaliate in the Gulf after an American attack within its borders.

Beyond the naval threat is the possibility of Iran throwing its military muscle into the ongoing struggle in Iraq. Currently, the US is facing an asymmetrical attack from groups wielding small arms, shoulder-fired grenades and roadside bombs. The vaunted American military has suffered 2,210 deaths and tens of thousands of wounded from this form of warfare. The occupation of Iraq has become a guerilla war, a siege that has lasted more than a thousand days. If Iran decides to throw any or all of its 23,000 armored fighting vehicles, along with any or all of its nearly million-strong army, into the Iraq fray, the situation in the Middle East could become unspeakably dire.

3. The Syrian Connection

In February of 2005, Iran and Syria agreed upon a mutual protection pact to combat “challenges and threats” in the region. This was a specific reaction to the American invasion of Iraq, and a reaction to America’s condemnation of Syria after the death of Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, which was widely seen as an assassination ordered from Damascus. An attack on Iran would trigger this mutual defense pact, and could conceivably bring Syria into direct conflict with American forces.

Like Iran, Syria’s military is nothing to scoff at. Virtually every credible analysis has Syria standing as the strongest military force in the Middle East after Israel. Damascus has been intent for years upon establishing significant military strength to serve as a counterweight to Israel’s overwhelming capabilities. As of 2002, Syria had some 215,000 soldiers under arms, 4,700 tanks, and a massive artillery capability. The Syrian Air Force is comprised of ten to eleven fighter/attack squadrons and sixteen fighter squadrons, totaling somewhere near 650 aircraft.

Syria also possesses one of the largest arsenals of ballistic missiles in the region, comprised primarily of SCUD-derived systems. Iran, North Korea and China have been willing providers of state-of-the-art technologies. Compounding this is the well-based suspicion that Syria has perhaps the most advanced chemical weapons capability in the Persian Gulf.

4. China and the US Economy

While the ominous possibilities of heightened Iraqi chaos, missiles in the Gulf and Syrian involvement loom large if the US attacks Iran, all pale in comparison to the involvement of China in any US/Iran engagement.

China’s economy is exploding, hampered only by their great thirst for petroleum and natural gas to fuel their industry. In the last several months, China has inked deals with Iran for $70 billion dollars worth of Iranian oil and natural gas. China will purchase 250 million tons of liquefied natural gas from Iran over the next 30 years, will develop the massive Yadavaran oil field in Iran, and will receive 150,000 barrels of oil per day from that field. China is seeking the construction of a pipeline from Iran to the Caspain Sea, where it would link with another planned pipeline running from Kazakhstan to China.

Any US attack on Iran could be perceived by China as a direct threat to its economic health. Further, any fighting in the Persian Gulf would imperil the tankers running China’s liquefied natural gas through the Strait of Hormuz. Should China decide to retaliate against the US to defend its oil and natural gas deal with Iran, the US would be faced with a significant threat. This threat exists not merely on a military level, though China could force a confrontation in the Pacific by way of Taiwan. More significantly, China holds a large portion of the American economy in the palm of its hand.

Paul Craig Roberts, writing for The American Conservative, said in July of 2005 that, “As a result of many years of persistent trade surpluses with the United States, the Japanese government holds dollar reserves of approximately $1 trillion. China’s accumulation of dollars is approximately $600 billion. South Korea holds about $200 billion. These sums give these countries enormous leverage over the United States. By dumping some portion of their reserves, these countries could put the dollar under intense pressure and send U.S. interest rates skyrocketing. Washington would really have to anger Japan and Korea to provoke such action, but in a showdown with China - over Taiwan, for example - China holds the cards. China and Japan, and the world at large, have more dollar reserves than they require. They would have no problem teaching a hegemonic superpower a lesson if the need arose.”

“The hardest blow on Americans,” concluded Roberts, “will fall when China does revalue its currency. When China’s currency ceases to be undervalued, American shoppers in Wal-Mart, where 70 percent of the goods on the shelves are made in China, will think they are in Neiman Marcus. Price increases will cause a dramatic reduction in American real incomes. If this coincides with rising interest rates and a setback in the housing market, American consumers will experience the hardest times since the Great Depression.”

In short, China has the American economy by the throat. Should they decide to squeeze, we will all feel it.

5. American Preparedness

American citizens have for decades taken it as a given that our military can overwhelm and overcome any foe on the battlefield. The rapid victory during the first Gulf War cemented this perception. The last three years of the Iraq occupation, however, has sapped this confidence. Worse, the occupation has done great damage to the strength of the American military, justifying the decrease in confidence. Thanks to repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, recruiting is at an all-time low. Soldiers with vital training and know-how are refusing to re-enlist. Across the board, the American military is stretched to the breaking point.

Two vaunted economists – one a Nobel-Prize winner and the other a nationally renowned budget expert – have analyzed the data at hand and put a pricetag on the Iraq occupation. According to Linda Bilmes of Harvard and Nobel Laureate Joseph E. Stiglitz of Columbia University, the final cost of the Iraq occupation will run between $1 trillion and $2 trillion, surpassing by orders of magnitude the estimates put forth by the Bush administration. If an engagement with Iran envelops our forces in Iraq, and comes to involve Syria, our economy will likely shatter under the strain of fighting so many countries simultaneously. Add to this the economic threat posed by China, and the economic threat implicit in any substantial disruption of the distribution of Mideast petroleum to the globe.

If Iran and Syria – with their significant armaments, missile technologies and suspected chemical weapons capabilities - decide to engage with the relatively undersized US force in Iraq, our troops there will be fish in a barrel. Iran’s position over the Gulf would make resupply by ship and air support from carriers a dangerous affair. In the worst-case scenario, the newly-minted American order of battle requiring the use of nuclear weapons to rescue a surrounded and imperiled force could come into play, hurling the entire planet into military and diplomatic bedlam.

Conclusion: Is Any Of This Possible?

The question must be put as directly as possible: what manner of maniac would undertake a path so fraught with peril and potential economic catastrophe? It is difficult to imagine a justification for any action that could envelop the United States in a military and economic conflict with Iraq, Iran, Syria and China simultaneously.

Iran is suspected by many nations of working towards the development of nuclear weapons, but even this justification has been tossed into a cocked hat. Recently, Russian president Vladimir Putin bluntly stated that Iran is not developing its nuclear capability for any reasons beyond peaceful energy creation, and pledged to continue assisting Iran in this endeavor. Therefore, any attack upon Iran’s nuclear facilities will bring Russia into the mess. Iran also stands accused of aiding terrorism across the globe. The dangers implicit in any attack upon that nation, however, seem to significantly offset whatever gains could be made in the so-called ‘War on Terror.’

Unfortunately, all the dangers in the world are no match for the self-assurance of a bubble-encased zealot. What manner of maniac would undertake such a dangerous course? Look no further than 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

George W. Bush and his administration have consistently undertaken incredibly dangerous courses of action in order to garner political power on the home front. Recall the multiple terror threats lobbed out by the administration whenever damaging political news appeared in the media. More significantly, recall Iraq. Karl Rove, Bush’s most senior advisor, notoriously told Republicans on the ballot during the 2002 midterms to “run on the war.” The invasion of Iraq provided marvelous political cover for the GOP not only during those midterms, but during the 2004 Presidential election.

What kind of political cover would be gained from an attack on Iran, and from the diversion of attention to that attack? The answer lies in one now-familiar name: Jack Abramoff. The Abramoff scandal threatens to subsume all the hard-fought GOP gains in Congress, and the 2006 midterms are less than a year away.

Is any of this a probability? Logic says no, but logic seldom plays any part in modern American politics. All arguments that the Bush administration would be insane to attack Iran and risk a global conflagration for the sake of political cover run into one unavoidable truth.

They did it once already in Iraq.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. Indeed, Mr. Pitt
The concept that something was just too damned stupid for anyone actually to do used to be one of my sturdiest tools of analysis. It has quite broken off with this bunch; indeed, that something is too damned stupid for anyone actually to do it has become an indicator this crew actually will....

"LET'S GO GHET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Why do you think they are stupid?
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 03:12 AM by Beam Me Up
The one thing those who are behind Bush want is to bring an end to the American experiment. Their intent is and has always been to create the conditions necessary for the suspension and ultimate overthrow of the Constitution of the United States. Bush regards it as nothing but a henderence, a useless piece of paper. To do this, they have to subdue the American people--as they have been, step by step, for the past many years. What better way than to set up an situation where America will be under attack by both economic and military forces? The Bush regime would LOVE it if the Iranians took out several thousand seamen over-night. It would be the next best thing to another 9/11. They would use it to declare war in the Middle Easat, institute a draft and move to make dissent the equivalent of treason in time of war. If the economy were to drop out--imagine New Orleans a thousand fold--that would finally do it. Whatever chaos or vein attempts at resistence results will be used to implement the final platforms of the police state. At this point, given that they are beginning to loose on the political front, attacking Iran might be looking better and better. The predictable consequences would simply cement their already entrenched trajectory.

These people are not stupid. They are evil and their intention is to transform our Republic into a de-facto fascist Theocracy--preferably without having to fire more than mostly symbolic shots.

Edit: typo
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. That Is All Rather Elaborate And Intricate, Sir
Assent to it requires sharing a variety of assumptions that are nowhere near demonstrated as fact. The "piece of paper" statement, for example, requires taking seriously Capitol Hill Blue. There is a great gulf between torturous arguments in Constitutional law exaggerating the Executive's authority as Commander in Chief, and the fixed resolve to nullify the Constitution as the end of a plan decades in the maturation.

A simpler explaination, more consonant with the ordinary attributes of the human animal, is that the people currently in charge are men of limited understanding and narrow experience, that has left them convinced of many things that are not true, and that therefore the things they do seldom have the outcomes they intend, save when they are acting in the limited spheres wherein they are indeed competent, namely enriching themselves and their own sort, and domestic political manipulations centering on emotional appeals to religiousity and patriotism.

The imposition of a dictatorship is a delicate art. It has not been done successfully in history by leaders who have failed, and who have by their failures plunged a country into disasters military and economic sufficient to rend its social fabric. When that occurs, and a dictatorship is imposed, it is always done by elements quite divorced from, and hostile to, the authors of the catastrophe the dictatorship is declared to repair.

"In politics and war, only what is simple can succeed."
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Most dictators are failures
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 12:55 PM by CJCRANE
who plunge their countries into financial ruin eventually.

Look at Saddam Hussein - he kept a lid on Iraq for 30+ years with only 20% of the population behind him (the Sunnis)..

Then there's the Soviet Union - Russian communists kept hold of a vast eurasian empire for 70 years..

What about Mobutu, President-for-Life in Zaire, he systematically drained his country of $5 billion..

on edit: in fact it's easier for a dictator to keep the population down if they turn their country into a basket-case, eg. Mugabe in Zimbabwe and the leader of N Korea..
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Seizing Power, Sir
Is a seperate exercise from holding onto it. Nor is it easier to hold power by ruining a country: what actually occurs in situations such as the two you mentioned is that the means employed to hold power produce a ruinous result, and rendetr the dictatorship ever more wobbly.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. I agree with you completely.. They know what they're doing, and they're
doing it on purpose... It's the ONLY thing that makes sense when you look at all of the different aspects of this mess. They are intentionally trying to destroy America..
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. and all it would take is one incident they could point to as provocation
from Iran through some trumped-up association, some secret evidence as they allowed in their justification for Iraq's invasion.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. "what manner of maniac" would do something so incredibly stupid?
Heh heh heh.

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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. One thing I would add
A war with Iran would require a draft. Once Team Baby Bush sees that Iran will not just roll over when they are attacked, the draft will be re-started.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. OH LOOK!
Ewwww, stinky.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. "The day we see the draft ...again, is the day World War 3 breaks out"
Which is the day we attack Iran.
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Raydawg1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. the day the Draft is reinstaded there will be riots in the streets
once college kids and everyone else start to get drafted it will be all over for Bush.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Oh yeah, we've just got more bodies than we need as it is, right?
We're already severely overcommitted, genius.

Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Short stay...read this one, lol!
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 01:28 AM by LynnTheDem
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Someone fill me in: what did the deleted message say?
nt
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Standard line of bullshit gibberish.
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Yep, I think you're hitting the nail square on the head
These dumbasses think the world is one big poker game that they can raise their way out of. I think they wouldn't care if we lost a battle or two, it would give them more of an excuse for martial law, military spending and more tax cuts.
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. I posted something similar earlier this month
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well put.
I don't believe these idiots know what they're doing.

And even worse, I think that they just don't care.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. I got confused at the introduction part
A relevant title might help.

Once I read your list of ramifications, it at once became clear.
Your conclusion is powerful.

That's my two bits worth.
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
9. What the deluded have not yet concluded-
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 01:07 AM by BeHereNow
Time and again, I read posts on DU regarding this
situation which argue various points of reason
as to why the US would not pursue this path of
action.
All are based on the misconception that the current
administration cares about the ramifications
of such actions regarding the blowback,
financial and otherwise, those actions would incur upon
the citizens of this country. As IF they care what happens
to the average American?!?

I want some of what those posters are smoking.

BHN

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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. Will, until this essay
was one of those happy smokers. He made a very eloquent and believable explanation for why an Iran war will not happen. I'm wondering what caused the shift in perception on his part.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
64. Why did the White House back off on it's
Social Security demolition project?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't argue with the conclusions...
... but there are contrary estimates about Iranian forces right now--they are deep in manpower, but the tanks they have are elderly (they have begun producing their own, though, recently, as they have just begun to do with helicopters, but, with the latter, they still don't have any capable of transporting troops in significant numbers).

The actual number of aircraft available for combat is greatly diminished due to lack of spare parts (and is certainly much lower than the 306 mentioned--having and flying reliably are different matters). Of surface ships, they have, for example, three minesweepers, but none of them have any minesweeping capability any longer. Some of their larger ships are only available occasionally for training purposes, due to lack of maintenance and parts.

But, countering that, they have purchased PT boats from China (the last estimate I read was ten) and they have attempted to upgrade air defense radar with the aid of the Soviets. The recent purchase of Soviet surface-to-air missile batteries is clearly an attempt to counter the great disadvantage they have with regard to flyable interceptor aircraft.

It's been some years since the end of Iran-Iraq war, but the toll was heavy in that. I'm in the midst of Robert Fisk's new book and he makes plain in it that the war with Iraq would have continued well into the `90s had not Khomeini come to the realization that Iran no longer had the resources to resupply its troops in the field. Sanctions over time have limited Iran's ability to reconstitute the military capability it had at the end of the Shah's reign.

For those reasons, I don't think the military counter-attack from Iran itself would be significant--at least in its ability to withstand a large-scale air bombardment. The first indication of US intentions would be a withdrawal of ships from the Gulf and the positioning of them well out in the Gulf of Oman to prevent damage from Sunburn and Silkworm missile attacks. If there are US ships in the Gulf at the beginning of a US attack on Iran, that would be immense stupidity on our part.

Where does this surmising lead me? To one point--that the Iranians would choose not to retaliate militarily. They would, instead, as you suggest, promote much-increased attacks on the US military inside Iraq, provide much more support to all groups fighting the occupation in Iraq, and would utilize all its connections to terrorism to mount terrorist attacks on the US. Where Shi'ite Iran has previously resisted cooperation with Sunni Wahhabi al-Qaeda, after an attack by the US, they would avail themselves of any and all opportunities to strike back at the US in ways less detectable immediately.

In that sense, an attack on Iran would simply be Bush whacking at another Middle Eastern hornets' nest for domestic political purposes. The terrorist attacks that would come later on US soil would be additional justification for authoritarian and repressive government inside our borders, and well as engendering more demands by the Bushies for the same from European governments.

I think it's also worthy of mention that there are economic reasons for such an attack by the Bushies--the start date of the Iranian bourse is coming up. There may be argument about the extent of the effect of that on the dollar, but there's little argument that the effects would be damaging to the value of the dollar--the question is only of how much.

Cheers.

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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well said.
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 01:17 AM by Prisoner_Number_Six
Our "might" is so decimated at the moment it wouldn't take much of a stroke from any of the mentioned parties to break our army. I mentioned this in short form a couple days ago (I believe I said something like "They'll kick our asses") but was rebuffed. Now that you've taken the time to spell it out, I feel vindicated- I do NOT feel any BETTER about it, but my thoughts are confirmed. Alas, we're screwed as a nation if the monkey-in-chief is allowed to push the button on this.

I once posted a thread here that stated I thought it was time to hide the nuclear "football" from *bush and Cheney. Now I realize that they don't need to push the button at all. They'll destroy us with sheer dictatorial lunacy. It's maddening.

Censure would be meaningless. Impeachment won't happen soon enough. Civil war would be ineffective. At this point I fear the only option that might save our nation would be a military coup- an armed takeover of the Oval Office. And as much as I loathe such a concept, I think right now I would find myself rooting for it if it took place. Unfortunately it's not an option we can count on- there are as many madmen in the military command structure as there are in the White House. I simply do not know if there is a way to turn anymore.

We're screwed.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think it was Gwynn Dyer who pointed out that Iran is dependant on
Australia or New Zealand for lamb for 75 Million people (or however many Iranians there are). For sure if those countries cut off the lamb - there would be civil strife in Iran. And it would take Russia (or whomever) a bit to build up a lamb industry enough to replace those flocks.

It will never happen. Lamb is big business. Would be like taking oil patches away from Texans. But it is a plan.

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. That's a reason for Iran to NOT get into a war, but not for the U.S.
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 01:48 AM by berni_mccoy
The U.S. is acting as the agressor here, not Iran. The U.S. is saying,
"Stop your nuclear program or we will"
Iran is saying
"Stop threatening us or we won't stop"

There IS a Diplomatic Solution here, and the U.S. has dealt with worse diplomatically in the past. The problem is, the administration is hell-bent on attacking Iran.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Iran - you mean Iran. And that Iranian PM is Koo koo!
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 01:38 AM by applegrove
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Ugh... A nasty little typo...thanks for catching it.
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Easy one to make. And that Iranian leader is Koo Koo!
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lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
21. It worked with Iraq WMD and it works for IRAN and Syria
the Axis of Evil must be taken care of...

Our poor nation is in the hands of very evil men...
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. brilliant and scary analysis - 1 question
Where do you get your sources for the strengths of the Iranian and Syrian militaries?

I pray Bush does not do anything to Iran, but history shows that Hitler was a suicidal madman in the war vs Russia. He constantly ignored his generals crys for retreat and the Russians eventually did him in.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. A variety of places
Mostly CSIS reports and other organizations/think tanks that keep tabs of this kind of thing.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. and another point you may or may not want to address
I am guessing Europe would sit out any military conflict. Would Great Britain once again be the coalition of the willing or have they learned their lesson?
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Europe would pressure U.S. to avoid conflict
It's already started happening... The U.S. has failed to get the votes a Security Council referendum on Iran. There is no support for military conflict in Iran.

I doubt very seriously if the U.K. would get involved in this one... their parliment won't take any more B.S. from Blair.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. GB already told bush hell no; the UK is kinda out of troops, equip & $
right now.

Also, the Brit military ain't exactly thrilled with Tony the bLiar and his lying them to war & death. Nor are the British people.

An attack on Iran would be the US all by its lonesome. I did assume even bush has enough brains to know there is simply no way the US could ever occupy Iran, but given how incredibly stupid & ignorant he's proven himself to be, I'm not so sure now. But the UK does know how impossible an occupation would be, and Tony ain't likely to want to add a huge death toll of Brits to his CV.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. Will, thank you very much for this comprehensive rundown on the situation.
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 02:17 AM by Peace Patriot
I recommend Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark," which describes the impacts to our atmosphere of even a limited nuclear exchange. In short, what is at risk here is all life on earth.

-------------

Having said that, I feel kind of silly nitpicking on the homefront political stuff. But let me have my say regarding (**), below.

---------

"The Abramoff scandal threatens to subsume all the **hard-fought GOP gains** in Congress, and the 2006 midterms are less than a year away." --WRP

---------

Not "hard fought" at all. You don't have to do much with Bush's buds at Diebold and ES&S controlling the tabulation of the votes, with "TRADE SECRET," PROPRIETARY programming code in their election theft machines, and virtually no audit/recount controls. You basically just have to show up and kiss the right ass. That's why GOP Congress critters are such "pod people," all repeating the same "talking points" from Karl Rove's fax machine. Lazy S.O.B.s on a cakewalk. Never had an original thought in their lives; never had to actually earn their keep by representing the common good, or even knowing what it is.

2006 will not likely be any different than 2002 and 2004. Our election system is STILL egregiously non-transparent and still controlled by Bushite corporations.

Now it's true that Diebold and ES&S can't just invent an election out of nothing, not yet anyway. There has be to some votes, some money changing hands (lots of money changing hands), blood payments to the war profiteering corporate news monopolies for TV ads, and some flagwaving and illusions of enthusiasm for whatever crook they've bought and paid for, and put on the ballot. The blather and crap we hear from Bushites on the campaign trail may sound like they're "fighting hard" (i.e., "hard-fought gains") to get elected, but it's really just brainless theater of "The Three Stooges" variety--a way of playing into the illusion that we have honest, transparent elections--when we so obviously do not--then, they throw in some nasty attack ad to create a soundbite for after the farce...er, election... to explain how they won, when all the pre-election polls, and even the exit polls, said they were going down.

That's not "hard-fought gains." That's just fun and games in BushWorld, a new type of theme park.

-------

"Karl Rove, Bush’s most senior adviser, notoriously told Republicans on the ballot during the 2002 midterms to 'run on the war.' The invasion of Iraq provided **marvelous political cover for the GOP** not only during those midterms, but during the 2004 Presidential election." --WRP

-------

Again, my point is that it's all "Three Stooges" theater. You don't NEED "political cover" when you own the voting machines, the news media, the courts, the Congress, the White House, the US "Defense" Department, the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, the FBI, the CIA, Homeland Security, and a number of power-hungry rightwing preachers, and are backed by billionaire sons of Croesus. What you need is to be able to play your part, be the GOP clown for the day out there in public, speak your dictated lines, and throw a few scowls in the direction of Osama bin Laden. You need to help create the ILLUSION of democracy, so the war profiteering corporate news monopolies can get their newsbites, and you can all go back to reviewing your stock portfolios, "journalists" and "politicians" alike.

Things are the reverse of what they seem. The tail is wagging the dog. The cart is before the horse. It's not difficult to play this role, when you know you're going to win. Struggle is involved ONLY if you have a conscience--and ONLY if there is uncertainty. Both things are pretty much absent from Bushite GOP politics.

If the war was "political cover," what was it "cover" for? The war? Maybe you mean "cover" for the filthy bribes and war profiteering and arms bazaar that our government has become. In that sense, the war IS "cover."

And THAT essence of the war--the loot that is being made--IS their purpose. Politics, to them, is how to maintain that incredible--beyond their wildest dreams--military/corporate gravy train.

What the American people want or need has nothing to do with it. Back in Feb. 2003, 58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war. Before the invasion. 58%! Across the board in all polls. And it has hardly changed over the last several years, except to go up! So, the war is NOT "political cover." It is, in fact, the opposite--if you're talking about how the people perceive the politicians, and what the people want, and if you're presuming that the people have some sort of the say in the matter. IF the people had a say, everybody who prosecuted and voted for this war would be out of office.

But we DON'T have a say. So it's not "political cover" from OUR point of view (the point of view of the majority). What it is, I think, is a pre-programmed story of how people support the GOP somehow BECAUSE of the war (their actual views to the contrary notwithstanding), which operates to convince the antiwar majority that they are a minority. They watch the news. Their view--that the war was wrong from the beginning, and is even more wrong now, with all the death--is NOT reflected in what they see, hear or read (or seldom is), so they conclude that they are out of step, that they are all alone, that the country has gone nuts, that their fellow Americans are sadly hoodwinked and deluded. But they never question this illusion that they are in the minority--even when polls conducted by the war profiteering news monopolies (if they ever hear much about them) tell them, repeatedly, that other Americans DON'T SUPPORT THE WAR AND NEVER DID.

If you stay plugged into the corporate news monopolies--as we all have to do, at times, and which regular public commentators (like yourself) have to do probably too much of the time--you cannot help but fall into these illusory errors, that the GOP gains in Congress are "hard-fought," or that being pro-Iraq war enhances a politician's standing (provides him "political cover") with a public that has been consistently against that war, in large numbers.

It reminds me of the blogs about "Why we lost the election?" It's amazing how people go on about this. We lost the election because Bushites own and control the voting machines! There is really nothing else to say about it. If we can restore transparent elections, we will start winning elections again, in the most amazing leftist, antiwar revolution you ever saw. Not even South America could match us in the number of leftist politicians we would elect in two years.

But people accept the untruths that sneak into their brains from the corporate news monopoly illusion machine! The GOP "fought hard" for their gains in Congress. The Iraq war was a feather in their cap. I do it myself, sometimes. I stopped myself from using the phrase "mainstream media," because that's the kind of illusion that I began to see at work in even the smartest people. Nothing "mainstream" about it. Yet we GIVE AWAY the whole mainstream of American political opinion to THEM, to the corporate news monopolies with their extremely narrow interests and views.

----------------------------------

Thank you again for the chance to sound off! It's a great article, despite my quibbles! And I hope you are wrong about China. I caught an article the other day that pointed out that Iran was opening an oil market in March, which will be using euros for the exchange. (They are switching from dollars.) As others have pointed out, that may have been the real trigger for the Iraq invasion (Saddam had just switched to euros.) Very, very worrisome stuff. And we, the people in whose name this expanded and possibly quite dreadful war will be waged, are stuck here with the mechanism of our sovereign power--our vote--having been taken from us. God help us all!


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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Diebold was around in 1964?
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 02:31 AM by WilliamPitt
Not to snark, but when I talk about hard-fought GOP gains, I'm talking about a movement that began with Goldwater in '64, worked for Nixon in '68 and '72, got crushed by Watergate and got backbenched, saw Reagan in '76 and ran him in '80, held the reins until '92, and finally got a Congressional majority in '94.

It's been a lot longer than a few years. By my count, the conservative/fundamentalist push to take everything over has been at work for 42 years.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. What would be interesting is a study of the correlation between...
the introduction of Urosevich controlled (Global Election Systems, Diebold, ES&S, I=Mark, etc.) voting equipment of any stripe and changes in the ideological makeup of their clients.

In two high-profile cases (Hagel in 1996 and Georgia in 2002) there is a 100% correlation. I wonder if it holds up under a more general scrutiny? :shrug:

I'd also like to see a workup of election laws enacted vs. party. eg. is it true that Republican lawmakers write laws that enable election fraud.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
31. kicked and recommended
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
34. I feel sick....
Will, after just reading that, my stomach felt nauseated and I realized that if these whackos in the White House and running our country into debt and into the ground actually were that crazy (which I don't doubt at this point) to do such a thing as to attack Iran, then we are all seriously f_cked....

Logic says no, but nothing, and I mean nothing has seemed to be logical with these Neo-cons...which is freaking me out, because they probably are going to be that crazy and do this...

I feel sick.... :puke:
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 05:29 AM
Response to Original message
36. Couple of minor nits...
You spelled "Caspian" wrong.

Also, do you mean to use "bloody havoc" twice in 2 paragraphs? 3 times would make it a convention but 2 times just looks odd for such a phrase.

Kicked and recommended nevertheless. Also bookmarking for any potential "I told you so" conversations down the road. Should be required reading.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Many thanks
All that is fixed. I also added a bit about China being on the UN Security Council, and it having veto power over any UN actions against Iran if it comes to it.

Pray you never have to use this bookmark.

Thanks a lot.
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doublethink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
68. Great article Will .....
the only point I can make here is about Bush's past actions in dealing with the UN Security Council. From his speech March 17 2003 when the U.S. was about to go into Iraq. I quote ".... the United States and our allies have worked within the Security Council to enforce that council's longstanding demands. Yet some permanent members of the Security Council have publicly announced that they will veto any resolution that compels the disarmament of Iraq. These governments share our assessment of the danger, but not our resolve to meet it. -snip-

"The United Nations Security Council has not lived up to its responsibilities, so we will rise to ours." -snip-

He is the lawless one isn't he? :crazy: Anyway thank's for keeping this possible Iranian Folly out there. Beat it down when you can, and Peace. :)

Rest of speech here for I only hope history's sake, and not to repeat it. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/17/sprj.irq.bush.transcript/
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Dunvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
38. Great Research and Framework as Usual, Will...Have You Seen This...?
It's a post by donsu about Bush saying that he's breaking with both the UN and NATO in favor of future "Coalitions of the Willing" so as to move without oversight fetters, all the better to go to war at will.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2354857

Bush announces radical shift in foreign policy; No U.S. media report it

In case you thought the Bush administration's dangerous, and national-security-weakening unilateralism was just a one-time deal in Iraq, think again. Buried in the UK's Financial Times - and as far as I can tell, not reported anywhere else - are the details of a State Department briefing this week in which the Bush administration very publicly said it is essentially scrapping U.S. support for NATO and the United Nations. No joke.

Here's the key excerpt:

"The Bush administration says it wants to be able to form 'coalitions of the willing' more efficiently for dealing with future conflicts rather than turning to existing but unreliable institutional alliances such as Nato. 'We ad hoc our way through coalitions of the willing. That's the future,' a senior State Department official said in a briefing this week."

-snip-

I'm not going to go into how pathetic it is that the only paper that reported this story was the Financial Times - a paper not even based in the United States (and by the way, if I am wrong, please send me another media outlet that reported this - but the point still stands, almost no one has reported this).

What's important here is less the media's irresponsible laziness and more how the extremist neoconserative forces in the Bush administration are trying to dangerously alter America's national security policy in a way the public doesn't support and in a way that would severely weaken America's security for the long haul.
-------------------------------


the bushmilhousegang told us that they were going to create new realities.

goodbye NATO and UN. sorry, you're on our no-fly list. and don't call us either.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
39. There's one thing I don't understand about all this:
Doesn't Bush have to at least pretend to get public opinion behind him before launching an attack on Iran? After all, there was that elaborate build-up that lasted about a year before the start of the Iraq war and overlapped with the beginning of it: The Office of Special Plans. Colin Powell's presentation at the U.N., with that mysterious vial he held up. The forged Niger Yellowcake documents..etc. etc. etc.

Sure, it was all a crock (as many of us realized at the time), but there was considerable effort on the part of the Bush administration to make it LOOK like there was a credible threat from Iraq. This time, there is no effort AT ALL--not even any mention of it in the corporate media.

So what is Bush going to do--just start bombing and tell us about it afterward? Not even pretend to get an authorization from Congress? He'd NEVER get one--on the contrary, even this Republican Congress would probably start impeachment proceedings immediately.

What I'm saying is that an attack on Iran would be the equivalent of declaring himself emperor, and not even bothering to hide it. Does he really think he could get away with that? COULD he get away with that?
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. They are working on the pretext for war right now.
That jackass bolton is pushing the nuke issue over at the UN. That appears to where they will start. They want an issue to get them through the '06 election, and given that they have lots of issues right now, all of which are going to hurt them badly at the polls, a new war or a major terrorist strike or better yet a new war and a major terrorist strike might, in their view, get them over this "culture of incompetent criminal corruption" problem.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. They would probably just say it's part of the "war on terror"
I wonder how much they are already doing.
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hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
40. Problem is, Bush will never hear any of that reasoning
Only cowering sycophants are allowed into his royal presence. All he'll hear in the way of advice is "Iran bad, USA good, Bush better." Then he'll hear God telling him to invade Iran.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
41. Link to final
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. thank you! I got quite a bit of folks to send it to n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 12:54 PM by LSK
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
45. Good article. I agree with an earlier poster that the title needs some
help. I think that Folly is too soft a word.A stronger word like Suicide, Madness, or Maniacal would better convey the strength of what you wrote.
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
50. Kicked and Nominated.
Found this thread through another thread. Good work!

Here's the other thread. Don't let either of these threads sink!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x74073

:kick:
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Acryliccalico Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
51. Folly =IN,........Folly =OUT!
:kick: We are doomed as a country. :kick:
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. I am shocked that this thread hasn't gotten much attention.
:shrug:

This is big stuff.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
53. How much oil could we possibly lose during an attack on Iran?
This is an important question that happyslug addressed in a previous post:

Now, the report uses the term "Attack" and that can include an Air Attack on Iran without the use of ground forces. The US has the Air Force to do such an Attack, it will NOT be as easy as Iraq but losses on the US Side will be minimal. This is even a worse nightmare. Iran controls the whole Northern Coast of the Persian Gulf. Without ground forces to deny Iran access to that Coast, Iran can put its anti-Ship Missiles anywhere along that coast AND PROHIBIT ANY OIL FROM COMING FROM KUWAIT, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and the Rest of the Gulf Coast states. Furthermore Iran has missiles that can reach the Arabian main export port and thus capable of Destroying that port's ability to export oil. Iran also has support in that part of Arabia so it is possible for a terrorist attack on those and other oil facilities could be done. Sooner or later Iran, if attacked, will force the US to break off the Air Attack so that Iran will stops its attacks OR invade Iran and you get the real problem mentioned above in invading Iran.

I can see up to 50% of world wide oil production just stop within a week of such an attack. Such a Shortage will force the US into a Recession AND force the Pentagon to tell the President that he has to adopt some plan to end the Iranian attacks (i.e. stop the air attacks OR invade). Thus you back to the problem of Invading Iran OR quiting the Air Attacks. Bush will NOT want to appear "weak" so he will invade, the Invasion will succeed like it did in Iraq, but then you have an increase in unrest in Iraq (Mostly in the now quiet Shiite Section of Iraq) and guerrillas attacks on the American Forces in Iran. Bush will have to bring back the Draft just to replace the men (and women) being lost in these attacks. That will lead to domestic unrest as young people refuse to get drafted. You may even have riots (AND THAT MAY BE WHAT BUSH WANTS, RIOTS TO JUSTIFY MARTIAL LAW for the riots are hurting the troops and part of the same "terrorist agenda to destroy American").


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2013189#2013747



OK, so after 50% of world wide oil production is stopped, where do we turn for oil? Venezuela? Uhh, I don't Chavez will feel too generous after we attack Iran:

Chavez: Iran has right to atomic energy
3/12/2005 12:15:00 PM GMT

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez defended Iran over its dispute with the U.S. and Europe regarding its nuclear program saying Iran has a right to atomic energy.

"Iran has every right, like many other countries have done, to develop its atomic energy and continue its research in this field," Chavez said after meeting with his Iranian counterpart in Caracas.

"Venezuela and Iran agree in firmly rejecting the imperialist policy of the United States."

Chavez, whose country is a leading U.S. oil supplier, announced his stance after meeting Iranian President Mohammad Khatami who declared that both governments will stand "firm against any aggression."

more...

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=7435


Taking into account how Katrina depleted our emergency reserves, that would leave the American people pretty much out of gas.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
54. Go Pitt, Go!!!
"...a bubble-encased zealot" indeed.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
55. Top Iranian commander killed with 12 of his deputies in plane crash today
Saw this early today but haven't heard much more about it since.

Feels suspiciously like a Bush pre-emptive strike.


Top Iranian commander dies in plane crash: agencies
Mon Jan 9, 2006 2:50 AM ET

TEHRAN (Reuters) - The head of ground forces of Iran's Revolutionary Guard has been killed in a plane crash in northwest Iran, Iranian news agencies reported on Monday.

"Ahmad Kazemi was killed with 12 of his deputies and accompanying officers," Ahmad Panahi, head of Iran's Emergency Center was quoted as saying by the Fars news agency.

Fars news agency put the total number of people on board the plane at 15, of whom 13 were definitely killed.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-01-09T075040Z_01_ARM926757_RTRUKOC_0_US-CRASH-IRAN.xml&archived=False


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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. It is awfully convenient...
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firefox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
57. China has $800 billion in reserves
Edited on Mon Jan-09-06 10:34 PM by firefox
There was an article up yesterday about China being nervous over the dollar. It cited China as being second behind Japan and I believe they used the number of $800 billion in reserves, of course it might refer to total reserves instead of just dollars.

This is a Google News search on China reserves- http://tinyurl.com/b2f9e
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. Dammit
I liked your previous position of "No way, no how" because of China. You seem to have gone over to the "Bush will ignore that" camp. I respect your opinion so I am now more worried. Thanks dude.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. I honestly don't know where I fall
I managed to scare myself pretty well researching this.

No way, I told myself.

No way.

But...
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Okay
I asked in another post more directly but you answered sufficiently here. Damn, the only thing keeping me from having my nuclear nightmares again was your reassurance that it could never happen. Fuckity, fuck, fuck.

And I'm worried about avian flu. Shit............
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
61. I'm going to ask a pointed question
Why did you change your point of view? You were solidly in the "We won't go there because of Iran's alliance with China" camp. Now, not so much. What changed your mind?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. Pretty straightforward
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
63. Attack with who's army? Air strikes?
your post is just scary enough to be prophetic (I fear).

I truly feel for the men and women who signed up to get money for college and got this b.s. instead!

Yes, they knew that they might have to fight somewhere, some day, but do you think they ever imagined that it would be in Iraqnam?

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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
65. I would think a nuclear attack on Iran
would trigger India into action. Pakistan would probably object too. The great uniter might just succeed in uniting India and Pakistan... against us. India, by the way,suprised the US at joint war games recently.
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-09-06 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
69. similar opinion here, Will
Have you seen this article:


How to Stop the Planned Nuking of Iran - by Jorge Hirsch
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/hirsch.php?articleid=8359

Scared the crap out of me, along with your article. And I have relatives in Iran. :cry:
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-10-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
70. Solid. (eom)
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