Criminalized abortion: Forensic Vagina Specialists

[BlooInBloo]

http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/34576/

Wow. Just wow.

Thanks electorate. That's what we have to look forward to.

[SharonRB]

1. I heard this story on Rachel's show this morning

Pretty scary stuff.

[sasquatch]

2. Wasn't this a joke once?

When Snow White wanted to marry an Arab Sheik and his doctor said she was still a virging but her Heiman had 7 small dents though.

[paul_fromatlanta]

5. All kinds of things that can be funny now that wont be funny later

I have a close relative who had an ovarian tumor at the same time she was pregnant with her first child. She chose to carry the child to full term at the risk of her life after gathering all possible information and consulting with a half dozen doctors. she gave birth to a beautiful baby boy, had the tumor removed and recovered.

I asked my dad, do you realize that if your preacher had his way {our relative} would have had no choice and would would have done this by force of law without balanced medical advice?

He didn't get it and probably never will.

[fasttense]

9. I had the same problem (with other complications) that

your relative had. I CHOSE to risk my life for my beautiful daughter. I almost died from blood loss, twice. It would have meant absolutely nothing if I had been forced to carry the fetus. You can not be a hero if you have no choice. Anti-choice idiots are taking the honor out of motherhood.

[paul_fromatlanta]

13. I'm so glad things worked out for you n/t

[Solly Mack]

3. and people wonder why I'm so angry

[Chovexani]

11. It's like the old bumper sticker says

If you're not outraged, you haven't been paying attention.

[Solly Mack]

20. Sometimes I wish I could tune all this out

but then I know I rather have the anger than to live in denial

[Mnemosyne]

18. I don't Solly. My BP averaged 110/70 before * and is running

150/110 now!! %#^^@@!^*(_@$%^#%^)(&#^$(#!%^#$&*(@!**!!!!! :nuke:

[Solly Mack]

19. He truly is bad on our health

He literally makes people sick.

[Mnemosyne]

24. And I rarely swore before * stole office either, fucking little

treasonous motherfucking bastard prick!!

Excuse my English. :evilgrin:

[gglor]

74. You are not alone

The loss of democracy and the rantings of this maniacal monster bush---- make me so angry. I actually swear at him every-time he is on tv. Our laws and constitution have been destroyed and laughed at by the insanity of this bush abomination. I am in shock and awe on how he is running this country. Our republican traitors are no better than democrats that enable this dictator.

[B3Nut]

36. A few months ago

mine went up to 220/124! I'm on 3 meds now, it's well under control. I don't know how much the * cabal had to do with that, but dog gone it that bunch gives me heartburn.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Mnemosyne]

61. omg! Be careful Todd! We've got to make sure we're here

for the impeachment, indictment and imprisonment!!

Something has to give soon. I am not taking any meds, yet, but it screams mountains about this administration that people's health is actually deteriorating FROM it's actions. And now the dick is a trillionaire and WE pay his health insurance!

Have fun in your country! I may take a trip to Wineistan tonight myself. And I rarely ever go there. If the current atmosphere continues I may take up permanent residence. :)

Peace and hope,
V

ps- spellcheck has NO spelling for trillionaire. What a surprise.

[rodeodance]

4. we have come ths insane space in America--and it continues

[bananas]

6. New TV Show: CSI Vagina

[Solly Mack]

7. "issue search warrants for the vagina" and then the state

"searches the vagina for evidence of a crime" (abortion)
"the vagina is a crime scene"

A removed uterus (hysterectomy) can be taken into custody as evidence...it's a possible crime scene


I'm far too angry to voice anything but a very mean comment

[izzie]

8. Maybe we can get Judy Chicago back?What next?

I think I am more and more happy to be this old.

[theHandpuppet]

10. This the future I've been warning about

A future in which women will have to stand trial to prove they miscarried rather than had an abortion; women forced to carry to term even if it costs them their lives; prisons filled to capacity with women convicted of murdering/harming a fetus (Did she drink? Smoke? Take drugs? Eat fatty foods?); victims of rape and incest forced to give birth; women presumed guilty until a mandatory gynecological exam proves otherwise; millions more children tossed into the welfare or foster care system; even more women forced into poverty and dread.

Got news for you, anti-choicers: this is where it will all end if the pro-life fundies - and that includes the sham "Feminists for Life" - have their way. So SCREW YOU and the Taliban horse you rode in on!!!!!!!!

[Mnemosyne]

21. They aren't anti-choice HP, they are pro-back alley abortionists.

Sadistic and cruel.

Just what every woman that has a miscarriage needs; humiliation, accusations and possible punishment.:grr:

[kath]

40. In OK, they're trying to pass a law requiring the reporting of all

miscarriages.
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[Clark2008]

88. OK - I hope they fucking do.

I have a natural miscarriage about once every two or three months - many, many, many women do - at about two to three weeks into gestation. Some of us can't hold onto a pregnancy unless we are planning one and have the proper hormonal therapy; therefore, I urge EVERY woman who's period is late in Oklahoma and who finally has one to call local law enforcement - which would be nearly every woman - and burdeon them with the task of investigating this silliness while robbers, murderers and rapists roam the streets in the absense of law enforcement.

Seriously - teach these fucking fundie men what a woman's body REALLY does, which is to choose on its own more times than they care to think about. :grr:

[Nicole]

93. The Oklahoma bill

The bill about reporting miscarriages is not for all miscarriages. It will be required in cases of assault & battery that result in miscarriage.

[Coexist]

12. I hope everyone takes the time to listen to this and pass it on.

It is very important.

[Iris]

23. No joke. This is something every young FATHER should here.

Let him think about losing the wife and mother of his 2 small children because she died unnnecessarily of a tubal pregnancy because the fertilized egg was a more important "person".

[CornField]

14. Head of Human Life International describes the situation in El Salvador as

"an inspiration"

Whoa. That whole interview is unbelievable and horrifying. Can you imagine making a woman lie and wait for an etopic pregnancy to burst her fallopian tube before helping her? Can you imagine someone coming to your door with a search warrant for your vagina?!?

[sasha031]

22. I imagine woman needing medical treatment

are choosing to die rather than risk assured incarceration. the poor women, the odds are stacked so heavily against them.

this validates what I have been feeling, I despise religion. This is the country of Cardinal Romero and this is the best they can do!

[Blue_Tires]

15. Forensic Vagina Specialists? LOL

what school do i go to get a degree in that?

[Cerridwen]

38. Context matters.

What jokes did you make as you saw the planes hit the towers?

What jokes did you make as you saw people jumping from the towers?

What jokes did you make as you saw people dying after Katrina?

Context matters.

This is a deadly serious issue which potentially affects approximately 1/2 the earth's population and is happening to many women and girls already.

Kicking someone or laughing at someone when they're down used to be considered borish behavior, bad manners.

Listen to the interview. Read the posts in this thread. Imagine you're at a gathering of friends saying these things, look at their faces. What is the mood? How are they feeling?

Now make your joke.

[Solly Mack]

41. Nicely done!

:applause:

[Cerridwen]

42. Whew! Thank you.

I almost went into rant mode.

I am quite tired of others making jokes at the expense of any of us who are "down" and/or out of power. I think it's high time we call them on this behavior.

Thank you for noticing.


edit to add: I'm using this to kick this thread.

[Iris]

59. the Erma Bombeck quote - wow. Thanks.

[Cerridwen]

77. I'm glad you like it. It expresses much of the frustration I felt

for years trying to get "the next generation" on board.

It still "makes my teeth itch" every time I read it.

[lukasahero]

43. Let me second the kudos

Thanks for taking this post on. I noticed most of us were just letting it go and understood that the reason we were doing so was because we knew we would be met with the standard "Lighten up it's just a joke" retort (oh we humorless women).

Thank you, thank you, thank you for providing the perfect reply to negate that argument before it's made. Beautifully done.

[Cerridwen]

45. I'm going to say thank you and you're welcome to you, also.

My way of kicking this thread.

I almost "walked on past" the post also, for exactly the reason you mentioned.

I'm damned tired of "can't you take a joke?" comments. Do you also hear the word "bitch" implied in that "question" each time it's asked, i.e., "geez, bitch, can't you take a joke?" I do.

Thank you for your kind words.

[lukasahero]

46. Yeah but I hear it at the end

"Can't you take a joke, bitch?" OMG - right down to the "pause for dramatic effect", I hear it. I hear it every single time I hear that phrase.

And you know what? We hear it because it's there.

It's there whether the words are spoken or not. It's there in the tone of the speaker, in the attitude that suggests we don't have the right to be angry or offended, in the righteous indignation that we would dare speak up for ourselves, that we should be so arrogant as to question them.

We have a long way to go, baby.

[Cerridwen]

47. kicking

When I first started my previous post to you, I actually heard it implied at the end, but when I typed it, it come out in the middle. Weird that.

But it's implied - and we hear it. For all the reason you said. And because many of us have heard it throughout our lives in one form or another. And then the discussion begins about the power of language. And those who don't "get it" don't understand "what the big deal is."

Aw, well - that's enough for a "kick" type post...for now.

[Iris]

60. Saying things intended to inflict pain on someone and calling it a joke

is a form of bullying and abuse.

[BlooInBloo]

78. Wow. He never apologized...

I'm actually surprised... I'll learn someday I guess....


:(

[lapislzi]

52. Bullseye. n/t

[Freedom_Aflaim]

51. LOL

I see that you offended the joke police.

no worries. Sense of humor isnt inate.

[Kailassa]

68. I was about to reply to your post, then I noticed your spelling.

And, drawing the obvious conclusions, figured the information I would have given would be wasted on you.

As Jesus once said, "don't throw pearls before swine."

I hope you have enjoyed your visit.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

80. Thank you for your words of spelling expertise.

Truly wonderful to be near you.

Thank for actually going ahead and posting anyway (despite your statement that you would not). I am enriched beyond words.

[Cerridwen]

76. "Sense of humor isnt [sic] inate [sic]."

Neither, apparently, is class.

edited for clarity.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

81. indeed

I see that many folks in this friendly thread are experts at pressing the "check spelling" button.

To bad there isnt a "check courtesy" button.

[name not needed]

87. I hear Self Righteous University is offering a degree in that field now.

[CrispyQ]

16. Every day I suffer from outrage fatigue,

but this broke through the fatigue & I am livid.

Soon the day will come when women, real here & now human beings, are confined to something similar to a veal crate all in the name of protecting the fetus, a potential human.

I don't know if I can ever forgive the people who voted for this administration.

[knitter4democracy]

17. I'm ill.

Just the thought of the search warrant, the crime scene, and all that crap happening to a woman already in a rough patch in life . . . It's just made me sick.

[Control-Z]

25. Women in America

I am shaking with rage - and I feel sick and I'm scared. But, I understand; the shame, fear, and even the ignorance of women in America today. I am one of those women. Until a few years ago I would have said that the horrors of the past were just the scars of a hard won battle - a battle that I didn't fight and knew too little about but that I had reaped the benefits of, almost without a second thought. Yet, I had every reason in the world to give it my every thought.

Of course, when I was little I didn't understand that. There was no mom to teach me about those kinds of things. No way could I know about "women's rights" or the "freedom of choice". But, even when I was old enough to get it, and my mom had made it painfully clear to me, I still didn't get it, or perhaps I chose not to. I don't know. I don't know. I thought it was over, I guess - the battle and the pain. Or, I wanted it to be. I tried not to give it a lot of thought. I was so young still and with so many problems.

My younger daughter told me how to self abort yesterday. Just a "FYI, Mom". A girl at school had told her about it in detail. It was like getting kicked in the stomach.

This can't be happening. This can't be real! No! I want to scream! I feel like I'm suffocating. How could MY little girl be telling me this? Not my little girl. I want to shake her and make sure she knows just how dangerous it is! Make her promise to NEVER, EVER try something like that no matter what! To make sure her friends know. To come to me if she or anyone one of them ever needs help. I know I'm panicking but I’m frightened...the danger is so real.

But, she already knows all that. At least I think she knows? She knows how her grandmother died. She's known it all her life. But have I told her enough about it? How it happened? Why it happened? Should I show her the film now? Should I show her the photograph? She's probably already Googled it by now. It's so hard. There's no book to tell me how to do any of this.

Until a few years ago I would have said that the horrors of the past were just the scars of a hard won battle. I think I actually believed that for a while if only as way to come to terms with my mother’s needless death. Now, as my daughters' freedoms slip away before my eyes and the horrors of my past become their realty I realize I haven't done a damn thing to stop it. Oh, I hide in the safety of a pro choice group now and then and say I'm doing my part but the truth is I’m not. I’m too scared - all the time. Just like half the women in America.

I don’t know if I’ll ever make a difference but I know it’s time I started trying - before it’s too late. Maybe if I show the guts to speak out someone else will find the courage to do the same. So, I’m going to post this without worrying (too much) about who will read it and what they might think. I am Gerri Santoro’s daughter and my daughters will not carry on her legacy. Not a chance.

[Solly Mack]

26. Wow. Thank you.

[REP]

27. Thank You

I don't know you, but I doubt you "haven't done a damn thing<.>"

One of the problems is that too many of us one the left spend too much time pondering when a fetus should be given rights while the rights of actual living, breathing women are being taken away. A waiting period? What could that hurt? Parental notification? Don't parents have rights? Ban late-term abortions? Well, she had plenty of time to make up her mind! And on it on it goes ... and young women discuss how to terminate their own pregnancies, just in case.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

[Control-Z]

50. I've done little

I would have hoped a little more of myself. Few know, first hand, the evils I've known and yet I hesitate. How can I expect anyone with limited understanding to stand up and help stop this madness if I'm not willing to myself? We're in big trouble. It's real. It's now. Yes, now, in America 2006, 12 year olds are getting pregnant and talking about using DIY abortion methods. Some of the same methods my mother tried. Because it's typed out all pretty on the internet they think it's safe.

All the time spent pondering ways to deny safe abortions could be better put to use pondering the futures of not just the women who need them but the ripple of folk that love them and stand to have their lives shattered by their loss. No good can possibly come of imprisoning a mother of 3. No good will ever come of prolonging an ectopic pregnancy. Please? And absolutely nothing good will ever come of forcing little girls into the streets. But a whole lot of bad can and will come of all.

I wish I could see passion from the American woman like I've seen in the streets over immigration the past week. Imagine every unregistered uterus standing up in protest?

[CornField]

39. First, welcome to DU

Second, I want you to know how many times I have looked at your mother's pictures (yes, pictures... not just the one) and wondered about you and your sister. Since I don't really have words to put to emotions, please know that it is good to know you are 'okay.'

Finally, don't be hard on yourself. It is difficult for all of us -- so far removed from the real battles our mothers and grandmothers faced -- to know exactly what we should pass on to the next generation. I know that my own mother was far to shell-shocked to share much of the truth with me. And, perhaps, just like me, she had hoped those were only her realities and not ones that I (or my daughters) would one day have to confront.

Be well. Do good. That's all anyone can ask. :hug:

[Control-Z]

53. Thanks, CornField

It made me smile to know you've seen more than just THE photograph. My mom was incredible. If people could get past that picture…but I have trouble myself. I hope, someday, that will be that last image that comes to mind when I hear her name instead of the first.

[Solly Mack]

73. You mom was your mom and she was never that picture.

I know I'm not saying that right but I hope you know what I mean. That picture will never capture the woman. Can never tell her full story. No picture ever can. Your mom...who she really was...lives in you and it's the woman that lives in you - your heart...your memory...that is the "real" Gerri Santoro.

I found out the story behind my Mom's abortion when I was around 11. She was very lucky and we were too - she survived. It was causally slipped out in a talk between my oldest sister and my mom. I was sitting with them so I heard everything. They didn't think anything of it and their talk continued until they noticed me crying.

My mom, and I still hurt that I caused her that pain - she felt I was crying because I was ashamed of her.

But that wasn't it and at the time I couldn't get the words out.

Later when it was just the 2 of us she asked me about. When Roe v Wade became law we had a celebration party - I was 9 at the time - but that day, when she worried I was ashamed of her, was the first time my mom and I really talked about abortion in an up close and personal way.


I told her I cried because she was put into a position to risk her life - that made her so desperate...My mom, an incredibly strong woman - full of life and love...she could do anything...was subjected to such indignities...to be so little valued by society...to be so ill-treated by my father... to be forced to risk her life because she had no options. She was separated from my father but pregnant by him - and he refused to give his consent for her to abort and her doctor refused to help without that consent. She didn't want anymore children, she wanted out of the marriage...and my father wanted her to pay for wanting out..She used a pencil. Her doctor then wrote it off as a miscarriage/D&C - so her husband "won't have to suffer the shame of your actions"

That's what I cried for...I knew the history of their marriage already - or thought I did... I knew so much yet still so very little.

a single life is too complex to ever think one picture...one moment...one truth...one anything...is enough to really know that person.

Thank you for sharing your story with us. Thank you for so many things I just can't express right now. My heart is too full.

[Control-Z]

86. I do know what you mean

and can't begin to explain how much I appreciate your words - your story - your understanding.

As I struggle to break away from a man who is pro-self, I worry about my children and I think of my mom…a lot. I think about her boundless energy and her eagerness to help others. I remember her smile and sunny personality, and how her laughter would light up a room. More than anything, though, I think about her courage, her love and patience, and her purity of heart.

I know this is not the picture many would paint of her. It is simply the truth. Each and every day I grow more in awe of this woman whom I still refer to as “Mommy” and would hope to, someday, show half the character she showed me in those few short years I spent with her.

You, and others here, have reminded me that I am not alone; something I know but too often forget. Thank you.

[Warpy]

49. Thank you. I lost a friend in 1967

to a ruptured uterus and massive infection following an illegal abortion. She never did tell us whether a butcher had done that to her of if she'd tried to do it herself with a hanger, a knitting needle, or any other sharp and filthy instrument. It was too late when she finally went to the hospital and she wasn't conscious for long, thank goodness.

This is what good Christian men want to return us to. I'm too old to face it, but my friends have daughters and I'm terrified for them.

Antiabortion laws kill women. That is the bottom line.

[Control-Z]

54. I'm so sorry

That must have been horrible for you. How helpless you must have felt not to mention angry and frightened and a million other things...And, her family? In my head I'm ticking off all the possible lives that were altered by your friend's death. Her mom, dad, a brother or a sister maybe? Perhaps a boyfriend or a husband and children? Did she have grandparents living? What about aunts and uncles, and nieces and nephews, and friends, and co-workers? But, I'm sure they all lived happily ever after. And we can thank the good Christian men who place so much value on life.

[Chovexani]

56. Thank you for sharing your story.

Welcome to DU, that was a very powerful post. :hug: This is a scary, scary time to be a woman in this country. But as the Bene Gesserit say in the novel Dune, Fear is the Mindkiller. We all need to pull together and make sure no one's daughters have to go through this pain. I'm 24 and I see a lot of women in my generation who took things for granted, but are waking up now. That's what gives me hope.

[Control-Z]

70. Fear is the Mindkiller

I needed to hear that. Thank you.

[newyawker99]

83. Hi dancingAlone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Control-Z]

91. Thanks!

It's nice to be here.

[Clark2008]

89. Are you really?

Or is that "daughter" in the metaphyscial sense?

Wow. Just wow.

[Control-Z]

90. Yes

I am. In the biological way.

[fleabert]

96. Welcome to DU, and thank you for your story.

you are not alone here, there are countless women and men here who not only support you, but are fighting for our rights. I can only imagine how hard it was to write that post- you are brave and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. The loss of your mother was tremendous, and I am so sorry it happened. We can only hope that it never happens to another woman again, and we clearly have to fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesn't.

staying silent never solves a problem like this, thank you for speaking. :hug: :grouphug:

[lapislzi]

28. I expect flames for this, but...

The El Salvador position is philosophically consistent. If abortion is murder, then the penalty for murder must apply in all cases, no exceptions, and for all involved. It is a very logical statute.

Having said that, please understand that I don't in any way support it! I am pro-abortion (yes, you read that right).

However, this is what the on-the-fence, uninvolved, lukewarm people must be made to understand. If you believe abortion to be murder, there can be no half measures. Anything less than the full penalty--and in states where the death penalty is an option, it should be on the table--is an ethical sellout. The radical right already gets this. We need to make people understand that this is where we're heading.

[seabeyond]

29. i agree. no wiggle room. if murder, then that 10 yr old girl raped by

her father must deliver his baby.

i didnt read the article. jsut dont wnat to hear what they are doing now. but when people are going to actually have to think, really think.... that is going to get people active. when people start remembering why we had these protections for women and girls., little girls,....then that will finally turn this issue around. they need a loud wake up call.

[seabeyond]

30. i agree. no wiggle room. if murder, then that 10 yr old girl raped by

her father must deliver his baby.

i didnt read the article. jsut dont wnat to hear what they are doing now. but when people are going to actually have to think, really think.... that is going to get people active. when people start remembering why we had these protections for women and girls., little girls,....then that will finally turn this issue around. they need a loud wake up call.

[Solly Mack]

31. I won't flame you simply because that is where we are headed

Anyone that believes there can be some common ground between "Abortion is murder" thinking and "Choice - Women's Right" thinking hasn't thought the matter out. Some just don't think. Some just don't care. Some would say what is happening in El Salvador couldn't happen in the US - they would think such a thing to be reductio ad absurdum - that calling abortion murder wouldn't lead to vaginas being taken in legal custody in the US. Since remanding a vagina into custody and calling it a crime scene does sound absurd..and couldn't be the logical consequences of calling abortion murder and calling the women who have them and the doctors who perform them murderers. But it IS the logical conclusion and it CAN happen in the United States...and it WILL happen in the US if current trends continue.

Once it's understood that abortion is just one battle in the war to control women, then the picture becomes clear on just what is at stake for women. It's not simply about a medical procedure. Abortion is just a weapon anti-women people use in the larger war to control women.
This is evidenced by the indignities described in the interview. The laws in El Salvador clearly show a society that thinks it owns women - and more to the point - thinks it has full control over her vagina and her uterus. That the woman herself is secondary and incidental. The a woman just doesn't matter. She just isn't valued. She's a breeder...nothing more.

Proposed bans on birth control - same thing. The glass ceiling - same thing. "Good girls can't get raped" - same thing. Making 75 cent on the dollar - same thing. Women should submit to men - same thing. Man is king of his castle - same thing. Man is the head of the household - same thing. Barefoot and Pregnant - same thing. Strippers can't be raped - same thing. Prostitutes can't be raped - same thing.

Every single sexist thought and stereotype perpetrated against women - same thing.

It's all about the control of women.

The abortion issue, viewed in the fuller context of the treatment of women in a patriarchal society(which the US most definitely still is), is exposed for what it truly is - an attempt to shackle women in chains.

[lapislzi]

32. Bravo!

You tie it up brilliantly. I was going to bring up the correlations to sexual violence, domestic abuse and patriarchy in another post, but looks like I won't need to.

The part of the report (haven't read the article yet) that did it for me was the description of the treatment of ectopic pregnancies.

I would be interested to read more about the Catholic church's involvement in the shaping of this law.

A good read if you can still find it: Marilyn French's "Beyond Patricarchy."

Peace to you.

[Solly Mack]

34. I was going to add about domestic violence

but I got so damned angry just thinking about how women have been treated by society - in the courts, by the police,by their communities - when they have been raped.

People behave as if all that was a long time ago...

Like it doesn't still happen.

People behave like beating your wife/girlfriend/sister/mother and getting away with it is a thing of the past.

I hit the roof when someone tells me "but it's gotten better"

How many years do we have to wait for it to get right?

Give me a number already.

How incredibly arrogant, clueless, and callous is it of anyone to tell those discriminated against, by those who don't face such discrimination, that "it takes time" - "be patient" ..."wait" - "not now" - "your equal rights are a distraction"

Seems to me we're constantly regressing. Woman as a full person is so intimidating to some people they don't care who dies - as long as they don't have to confront their own insecurities. As long as they don't have to challenge their own thinking - their own beliefs.

[lapislzi]

35. Domestic violence can be amazingly invisible

People don't believe their own eyes and ears, don't believe it's happening to their neighbors, their students, their co-workers. I tell you that if you know 10 women, chances are 2 of them have suffered some form of abuse.

I am a domestic violence survivor. In my small office of 25 people, I know of 4 women (not including me) who have been abused by their domestic partners or spouses. For cryin' out loud, it starts in MIDDLE SCHOOL. Boys with that sense of entitlement and girls trained to back down, to mollify, to act "feminine." Calling girls "bitches" and barking commands that the girlfriends (who, at 13 and 14 are only just learning what it means to be a "girlfriend;" these object lessons are not lost on them).

Then you get the women (women!) who look at you with a straight face and tell you that if a husband hits his wife it's because she deserved it: "Why do you provoke him?" "You know how he gets;" or make excuses for the violent behavior. You know all this...I don't need to rave on.

[Iris]

57. yes. They are simply following the teachings of the Catholic Church.

If a woman dies in childbirth, that's just her fate as a childbearer.

[lapislzi]

62. Not to be facetious, but is that what "god wants?"

That opens up another huge can of ethical worms. What kinds of medical intervention are OK with god? How does anyone navigate these ethical waters?

Hmmm...maybe we should let women and their doctors decide, in consultation with their god if they feel the need. I have no better idea what god wants (especially since I don't believe in such being) than the next person.

[Iris]

63. and that kind of explains where I stand on this issue

Some people don't believe God exists. I'm not so sure he doesn't but I certainly don't want to make someone's life a hell on earth because I (or anyone else) presumes to know 1. that there is a God and 2. that any human can say what God wants.

Same thing with the soul - maybe there is a soul. Maybe it is there at the moment of conception. But maybe it's not. We don't know and, again, I don't think a government should be making decisions for all women based on what someone opines about that.

As for me, I wouldn't participate in IVF because, well, maybe there IS a soul and if you freeze it up in a test tube, how is that any better or worse than an abortion? In fact, I say if there is a soul there, it's considerably worse to freeze it up in a test tube than to simply abort it and let it move on.


but I digress . . .

[Kailassa]

66. I've wondered about this in regard to people

who get their bodies frozen in the hope of being brought back to life by a more advanced society at some distant time in the future.

Perhaps they are trapping their souls forever in an icy freezer, all for nothing.

And if they ever did get revived, they would just be a curiosity, like neanderthals would be to us, to be kept in a cage and observed and have constant medical tests until they died again, of loneliness.

[Iris]

67. yeah. There are just some things you don't want to mess around with.

Like NEVER dying!

[theHandpuppet]

33. And don't be fooled by groups such as "Feminists for Life"

aka Feminists for (Fetal) Life http://www.alternet.org/rights/24073

[Iris]

64. I don't see them advocating for decent childcare and paid family and

medical leave.

So, I'm NOT fooled by them.

[Lars39]

37. And the anti-choice Dems will help get it established.

Absolutely sickening.

[lapislzi]

44. Those are exactly the people we have to pound the point home to

That's why the "black-and-white" crowd love this issue. Either it's murder, or it isn't. It can't be sort-of murder, or sometimes murder, or a little bit murder, or murder for other people. And the only reason I can think of to criminalize the procedure would be to define it legally as murder. There can be no other rational justification to criminalize a medical procedure.

If you declare it's murder in the legal sense, then you are legally and ethically bound to exact the penalty for--murder.

Once you unravel the issue for rational people (the radical right is a write-off), you may persuade them to understand the reductio-ad-absurdum of the position.

[Lars39]

48. I agree.

[Iris]

65. You know the simple explanation for being pro-choice?

If the government can force a woman to give birth, it can also, at some point, force her to have an abortion, if it sees fit to at some point in the future.

[lapislzi]

84. Reframing the debate: it's about power

And the state owning your body. Every time someone comes to me awash in emotional rhetoric, I deposit that into the conversation. Sadly, many don't get it.

[DanCa]

55. Damn (nt)

[Swamp Rat]

58. This makes me burn with rage!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

[Kailassa]

69. I suggest we each send this link to a dozen people,

and ask each of them to listen and then send it on to a dozen more.

Information like this is the best weapon we have against the sadistic control-freaks.

Another tactic would be to play "devil's advocate". Rewrite the info from the anti-choice perspective and include the audio-file as an attachment, and send it on to all the republicans you know as a chain letter.

http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/34576



This diagram could be included as well, so people can understand one of the pointless cruelties this legislation is forcing women to endure.

[NMMNG]

71. That pre-emptive tubal ligation is looking better and better

I'm so sick and tired of my life being ruled by religious whackjobs, who turn and cry about non-existent "religious persecution". :grr:

[Kailassa]

75. kick n/t

[BlooInBloo]

79. Doesn't seem like an acceptable solution to me..

Just think about it... You take away your abilities so that someone ELSE doesn't take away your abilities? That's like drowning yourself in order to avoid being shot by someone else. Better to live prosperously, with ALL of your abilities, I humbly suggest (I'm a dude - suggestions are all I can offer).

I can appreciate the frustration levels tho... :(

[NMMNG]

82. I've known since I was a teenager that I didn't want to have any children

I've never wavered in that decision over the past 21 years and don't see myself ever doing so. If the laws continue as they are abortion will be outlawed nationwide. I have up to 23 more years during which I can have be made pregnant against my will, and be forced to carry that child to term. A tubal ligation will prevent any chance of that.

[Iris]

85. along the lines of BlooinBloo

The reason tubal ligation is not an option for me is that I don't like the idea of my ovaries releasing eggs that have no where to go but into the rest of my body to "be absorbed" and I resent like hell that I'm living under a gov't. whose policies might make me make a decision I might not otherwise have made.

[Triana]

92. That's what I did...

...YEARS ago. After my 20s, after being married (which I'll never, ever do again), and after INSISTING that I not be on birth control pills ONE MORE DAY (after having been on them 15+ years straight and approaching 35 - dangerous) and knowing I never wanted kids - I got a tubal.

And, as I sit here watching The American Taliban turn women into burka-wearing animals with even fewer rights than stray dogs, even to our own bodies, I'm SO GLAD I did that. THEY CANNOT CONTROL me in that manner anymore. I've not ever regretted it. Of course, like I said, I knew I never wanted kids. I can't advocate for anyone else, but I can tell you that this is the single smartest move I've ever made in my life.

I KNEW this shit was coming someday. I heard the stories from my Mom and Grandmother. I KNEW what they went through while women made what little progresss they have in this country. But -- I could easily see it slipping backwards and I KNEW it would happen in my lifetime and it is happening NOW.

I'm utterly disgusted, though not at all surprised.

[Kailassa]

94. I had a tubal ligation at 28, and never regretted it.

I already had 3 children, and I definitely did not want any more.

It was so difficult to find a doctor who would do it without my husband's signature that I ended up at an abortion clinic. I had to push through a crowd of anti-rights activists shoving bloody pictures in my face to get in, and was too stubborn to tell them I was not after an abortion.

When I managed to explain to a doctor, he was delighted to have a chance to prevent, rather than cure, the problem.

[REP]

97. I've Had Both a Tubal Ligation and Uterine Ablation; Now Considering a 3rd

I've known since I was 9 that biology was not destiny and that I was not going to be a mother. I got sterilized as soon as I could, and even though I'm old enough now that the chances of the ligation and ablation both failing are slight, I am seriously considering a third procedure (if there is one that leaves my organs in situ).

And no, I've never once regretted not having children, but I do celebrate it often.

[Lindacooks]

72. Kick

[ismnotwasm]

95. Look around a bit, and found this link

It has a free PDF file you can download the history of the abortion laws in El Salvador, if you want to take the time to read it.
http://www.crlp.org/pub_bo_perse.html
The whole thing is sick, but even sicker when you consider the other human rights violations, the child labor, the forced prostution (child and adult) thatis an industry in El Salvador, the poverty of a country that's been torn by civil war for decades. The prisons are overcrowded and squalid. So where are they going to put these women? GodDAMN

[Crowdance]

98. kick n/t