High-caliber ammunition is becoming scarce

[spinbaby]

I happen to be married to a gun collector who owns and fires some heavy-duty weapons. He's telling me that some ammunition--particularly 50-caliber and AK-47--has quite suddenly become virtually impossible to find at any price. The places that were even willing to take his order have everything on backorder.

He's worried that this is a sort of unofficial gun control--don't take the guns, just make the ammo impossible to come by. The official explanation for the shortage is that it's all being used in Iraq, but he says that until now it's been more expensive, but available.

Opinions, please.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

1. Ummm... U.S. forces using AK's in Iraq? I think not.

[spinbaby]

2. I have no idea

But DH says he can't buy the ammo for it anymore. I did point out to him that maybe the shortage was being caused by thousands of gun nuts just like him stocking up for end times.

[Bruce McAuley]

5. In times of distress, people invest in guns...

And the "people's gun" is likely the SKS or the AK47. Cheap to buy, they're considered "mouse guns" by the military, but they do spray bullets, then you can use the bayonet to try to poke the invader if all else fails. Cheap security for $100 US, or thereabouts, used to be.
Now, I suspect there likely is some collusion on the ammo supply.

Bruce

[MnFats]

8. Mercenaries? Fake raids by soldiers dressed as Iranians?

there is no limit to the deviousness of this regime....
I'm sure they could find a use for AK ammunition....

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

9. AKs are more reliable than M-16s, and easy to find over there

Damned straight our soldiers will use them if they can get them.

[sheepdog]

18. LMAO

Our guys are not using discarded AKs in the sandbox.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Yes, yes they are

it woudl help for your knowledge base if you went to the recruiter and joined them.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Do you know anybody in theater

and have you been following the news? WHole units of National Guard have been issued AKs... and where do they get the parts? Easy... the armories that belonged to the Iraqis army and third hand produces. By the way the AK is stamped... how hard do you think it is to make parts for it?

as to Ammo, same scenario, and it is actually MADE in the US by some manufacturers or you can even FIND IT by going through GUN RUNNERS from the Ruskies and Chinese... and Magazines same scenario

Tell you what, go join up, do a tour and them you talk to us. After all during the Nam war, troops who got their paws on AKs did not let go off them easy either.

[sheepdog]

38. Ok...

The statement that National Guard units are being issued AKs blows any credibility that you may have had out of the water. That is so far any form of the truth that it hurt me to read it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I am sure it does

but having sent a husband to war, and knowing the cluster that supply has been from word go I know this is not a fantasy.

But if it makes your head hurt, know that SEALS and Green Berets also receive training and at times ARE ISSUED AKs for operations.... again I am sure you did NOT know this.

Why don't you go see a recruiter and get a reality check?

[TomInTib]

43. I still have mine.

As a PBR (Patrol Boat, River) pilot, I quickly went from a 16 to an AK.
Those 16s were useless if you even got within sightline of water.

My weapon of choice was an Ithaca 12ga pump chambered for magnums.
I still have that one, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. My brother in law tells similar stories

hell he ended up on a boat with precious little training on the 16, and damn the rifle at boot was a .22

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Yes and also the Iraqi forces

some units have shipped without Rifles and have been issued AKs while in theater, mostly NG units. Moreover troops over there do what they can to get their paws on the far more reliable AK.

It helps to have friends or friends relatives in theater.

[Pavulon]

34. Guys in

my old guard unit are STRICTLY forbidden to carry non issued equipment. I'm sure some special units do but the bulk of the ground forces are using issued gear and ammo.

People love to try to get them home. I was tempted by a cool old pistol in bos but going to jail for 10 years and a the Big chicken dinner. They really frown on the practice. But it is still done.

[jdc_usmc]

55. NG Units issued AKs? WRONG!

You really have NO IDEA what you're talking about. Please tell me by unit designator the actual Guard unit that deployed with no weapons and was issued AK-47s. Yes, Ak-47s are reliable, but that's because they're simple, and also not at all accurate. Sure, early in the war some personnel picked up an AK and carried it around for a while, because it was a novelty more than anything else. The M-16A2 is far superior, especially for accuracy, and more so with the high end optics are servicemen are now issued to use with the M16. Soldiers and Marines are not allowed to use/carry AK-47s, and if they are doing it, they're violating policy, they're doing it to be cool and they're putting themselves at risk by carrying an unknown, less accurate rifle. Neither SEALS nor any other SF units are issued AKs for use in combat. They train with them to familiarize themselves with the capabilities of the weapon they'll likely be facing.

And what supply/logistics issues do you speak of? I spent 7 months in Iraq in 2005 with the USMC, in the worst parts of the country, and I saw zero supply/logistics problems and zero personnel carrying AK-47s. Sorry, your information is wrong. Don't really care who you got it from. I was there, were you? "It helps to have friends or friends relatives in theater." Not as much as it helps to BE in theatre. And it's theatre, not theater, if you're going to be a military expert.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

65. Iraqi NG get AK-47s

Stars and Stripes
Sunday, April 9, 2006

snip>
First Lt. Emad Rassol Salam, executive officer for 4th Platoon, said through an interpreter that the soldiers learned such skills as individual movement, clearing a room during a search or raid, identifying improvised explosive devices and unexploded ordnance, weapons cleaning and weapons qualification for the AK-47 rifle from U.S. Army noncommissioned officers.
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=22379&archive=true

According to google results, it's the weapon of choice for the insurgents too.

[jdc_usmc]

75. AK-47s

Yeah, IRAQI units are getting AK-47s. That's what the Iraqi government has in stock, that's what they have ammunition for, and that's what they're getting. I was referring to the misinformation about US National Guard units deploying without weapons and getting issued AKs, and US Special Forces using AKs in combat.

Yes, the insurgents use AK-47s, because there are thousands of them in the country and a lot of ammunition. Very few US casualties are due to small arms fire, because the terrorists are too cowardly to confront the US forces. The weapon of choice is the IED as we all know.

[jukes]

82. the AK47

is the preferred defensive arm of the iraqi populace.

since they can't trust the occupiers to defend them, i bet a lot of 7.62X39 ammunition is being hoarded by iraqi citizens.

don't forget that venezuelan militia are preparing for us to steal their oil, and AK47s are also issued to Venezuelan militia/freedom fighters.

[salin]

3. secret stockpile piling up among the militia types?

if he is thinking conspiratorially about it (ala govt and gun control) what about planting the conspiratorial seeds in a couple of other counter directions...

militia folks stocking up (to help govt were it to come to martial law)

or

militia folks stocking up (to prevent govt from going to martial law)

??

or

ammo manufacturers making scarce - to drive prices sky high and make more an more dough via price manipulation?

Lots of angles for conspiracy theorists to pursue from the left/right etc.

[formercia]

47. This country is awash with guns and ammo

and people trigger happy enough to use it.

[karlrschneider]

4. I haven't had any trouble finding ammo for my guns but don't have

any that use .50 or 7.62 (isn't that the AK caliber?) .38, .357, 30-06 and 9 mm are plentiful around here...but expensive. Hmm.

[spinbaby]

7. He tells me the more usual ammo is available

Just the stuff used in what I think of as his assault weapons is scarce.

[formercia]

36. the 7.62x39 uses a .310 bullet vs the .308 of NATO ammunition

the .308 bullets around 125 or 130 grains will work but they don't usually shoot as well.

There's a bit of variation in bore diameters of East Block weapons, especially wartime production. Experimentation and having friends that shoot the same calibers helps.

[Pavulon]

6. He is looking in the wrong places

Eastern bloc ammo is available by the case with no backorder from midway and others. As is m193 5.56 nato.

[sheepdog]

13. No...

Lake City M193 is out of production and has been impossible to find for a while now. It is not available at Midway.

Federal XM193 is very hard to find these days, and is not available at Midway.

Winchester Q3131A (M193 type ammo) is out of production and impossible to find.

Winchester Q3131 (also M193 type ammo) is very hard to find, and not available at Midway.

Bottom line, you are out of touch on ammo availability.

[Pavulon]

20. I reload, but

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM629-3231-258.html AK
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM201-3539-66.html ss109 steel core
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/62702-8701-68.html case of 5.56 nato

This in just one site. Midway gets backordered on common stuff. I don't own anything in this cal but htey are commonly out of premium 22-250 and other high demand stuff.

[sheepdog]

27. yes...

Yes, there is some 7.62x39 around, but the price has gone up significantly.

Yes there is some ss109 around, but it is either expensive (like in you link link, or factory rejects (pd ammo). And someo of us don't want ss109, we want M193.

Third link is NOT 5.56 nato by ant stretch of the imagination. That is steel cased ammo loaded to pressures lower than normal .223, much less M193.

There is no reliable source for M193 right now.

[-..__...]

19. $$$$$$$$

Practically evey major ammo distrubter/vendor (Cheaper Than Dirt, Ammoman, Cabelas, etc),has been out of 7.62 more awhile now. Same goes for 5.56mm.

The ammo that is available is US produced (at least it's reloadable), at a much higher cost.

Midway USA has Winchester ammo at $15.49 for a box of 20 :puke:.

Compare that to the "out of stock" price for the Wolf ammo at $2.69 for 20 round box, or 12.79 for box of 100.

[formercia]

37. Wolf ammo is ok for plinking

that russian ammo is way underloaded, just enough to work the action. Don't count on it in cold weather.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. Good.

[solinvictus]

66. Good?

That law-abiding American citizens are having trouble finding ammunition? That's nuts.

[BrotherBuzz]

11. Reload and bypass the middleman

Save all those pesky cases and just reload them at home. I understand most 50 cal shooters already do this.

[formercia]

44. You can get reloading dies, presses and components

but they are pricey. I prefer calibers between .308 and .358. More economical.

[BrotherBuzz]

53. The 50 cal boys reload for accuracy...

and at five, ten, twelve dollars a round on the market, and a multi thousand dollar rifle tells me they are not concerned about the expense of the dies.

I reload because my rounds of choice are no longer manufactured. Both are available on short notice, but damn, they are really expensive!

[-..__...]

12. "Peak Ammo"

A lot of the 7.62x39 is going to Iraq to supply, train and equip the Iraqi defense forces.
Or, another example: Venezuela just purchased 100,000 AK-47's for it's civilian militia.
Assuming even a paltry 5,000 rounds of ammo to go along with each rifle, that's a lot of ammo.

Wolf ammo out of Russia is probably the biggest single supplier to the US for 7.62x39 ammo.
Supposedly, shipments should begin trickling in around MAy, but that's only a rumor.

When it does show up again, expect it to be at much greater cost... no more $75.00 per case.

.50BMG ammo is all military surplus (or reassembled from deactivated ammo) that's been sitting in warehouses for years/decades. As an Executive Order was signed sometimes in the 90's prohibiting sales
of military surplus to the civilian market, once it's gone... it's gone.

[sheepdog]

17. Peak Ammo explained

[formercia]

41. Exactly

that's why i've been stocking up for a few years now. I saw it coming. Now I can sell my extra and feel good about it.

[YouthInAsia]

14. may I ask...who in the hell has a 50 caliber weapon /machine gun

for personal use? Isnt that kinda 'over doing it?"

[Phx_Dem]

16. uh oh--you said the wrong thing

:popcorn:

[spinbaby]

21. A gun nut, that's who

Not a hobby I indulge in, but he's an adult and entitled to his own hobbies. He's planning a trip to someplace in Kentucky this year where, apparently, a whole bunch of gun nuts get together to shoot things and also to blow things up. I have no idea why but have some theories about testosterone.

[formercia]

30. It's a lot of fun

Lots of paper company land around here open to play in. I have a favorite spot overlooking some blueberry barrens that offers 1000 Meter shootem up fun.

My favorite is plastic gallon jugs full of water. You can shoot and look up in time to see them vaporize.

[YouthInAsia]

31. I wasnt trying to be rude. I just cannot fathom the need

for a 50 caliber weapon. I hear it'll blow a human into a fine mist. EEEW. but I wasnt rtying to be rude. Just seems excessive, thats all. :hi:

[formercia]

33. I think it's a bit much

especially when you risk a separated cornea from the recoil. People shoot the .50 because the bullets maintain velocity better than most smaller rifles but there are some 30 cal bullets that can almost duplicate the trajectory of a .50 cal.

[Phx_Dem]

35. yea, I agree

I live in a gun state, I don't get it either. What anyone would need an ar-15 or AK or a m-50 for beats the hell out of me.

[formercia]

39. I prefer bolt action rifles myself

I do have a couple of semi-auto civilian rifles but they're collectibles and I only shoot them on occasion.

[KyuzoGator]

52. You don't understand because it's not a matter of need. nt

[benEzra]

62. Why I own a civvie AK lookalike...

I live in a gun state, I don't get it either. What anyone would need an ar-15 or AK or a m-50 for beats the hell out of me.

I own a civvie AK-47 lookalike (Romanian SAR-1). You are aware, I'm sure, that civvie AK lookalikes are completely incapable of automatic fire; they are built on different receivers than real AK's, which are tightly controlled in the U.S. by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

As to why anyone would want to own a civilian AK lookalike--"need" is too subjective a concept--I'd say my reasons are:

Low recoil. Thanks to its relatively low-powered caliber, my "AK" is quite gentle to shoot (doesn't beat up your shoulder). My wife likes her SKS (same caliber) for the same reason.

Aesthetics. Semiautomatic hunting rifles cover up the gas block and gas piston tube with boring wood, but the AK lookalike has more of the operating system visible. I am a mechanically inclined sort, and I think that's cool (my sister is an engineer and she agrees.) I like it for the same reason that so many people of my generation put shiny wheels and rear wings and air dams on their Volkswagen Passats; they're not any faster, but they look cooler. :)

Versatility. It's the most versatile firearm I own. I'm not a hunter, but I could hunt with it if I ever chose to do so, though it's not powerful enough for humane shots on deer much beyond 100 yards. It's also great for short- to moderate-range target shooting (200 yards and under), and also makes a good home-defense firearm.

Reliability. Even though it's not a real AK-47, my SAR-1 shares the same rotating bolt assembly and gas piston as a real AK, which makes it one of the most reliable rifles in the world.

History. I was born in 1970, just before real AK-47's were replaced by the more modern AK-74's in the Soviet Union. The AK-47 is an icon of 20th century history, for better or for worse. Since my wife and I have a very small collection of Russian-style firearms dating back to 1905 (the oldest bears the imperial crest of Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov, the last czar), my AK lookalike fills a niche in that collection, even if it's not a real AK.

Economy. Very few other rifles this good can be had for $379, which means a lot if you live from paycheck to paycheck (we have medical bills out the wazoo due to our 7 y.o. son's heart condition). Ammunition used to be VERY inexpensive before the latest runup ($1.75/20 rounds), which means I could afford to shoot it often. Ammo is still cheaper than most centerfire rifles, even at today's prices.

It's a freedom thing. Bill Bennett and Dianne Feinstein can splutter about it all they want, but that "AK" and SKS sitting in our gun safe are tangible reminders that my wife and I are free people. We don't own them at the dispensation of some elite; we can own them because we have the right to choose to, as law-abiding Americans. That's probably a cultural thing and I wouldn't expect you to feel the same way, but the freedom issue runs very, very deeply with most gun enthusiasts.


Romanian SAR-1 in hunting configuration (5-round hunting magazine and 4x scope)

[-..__...]

64. Excellent post.

:applause:

Cliff Notes version... "I own one because I can".

Lets keep it that way. :thumbsup:

[-..__...]

50. Knob Creek!

"Hoo Rahh"!!!!!!!!

http://www.machinegunshoot.com/

http://www.redstararms.com/KnobCreek.wmv

[benEzra]

61. Not machine guns--mostly single-shot bolt-action target rifles

may I ask...who in the hell has a 50 caliber weapon /machine gun for personal use? Isnt that kinda 'over doing it?"

Not machine guns--mostly single-shot bolt-action target rifles chambered for the .50 BMG cartridge. Energy levels are similar to a .700 Nitro Express big-game rifle, but the long-range ballistics are more like a .338 Lapua or .408 Cheytac.

[Pavulon]

15. Link

There is plenty of combloc ammo out there..

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM629-3231-258.html

[spinbaby]

22. I'm passing on the link

Although he's saying that a lot of these places claim to have the stuff but then, when you actually order it, they either don't have it or backorder it.

[Pavulon]

25. cheaperthandirt

is a long time vendor. They are ok. Folks I know who shoot ar's and combloc rifles deal with them.

They will not rip you off.

Shipping is expensive however.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. IT IS beng used up in Iraq

that is actually not an excuse. They don't have enough of the stuff to go around... if you still have ammo, SAVE IT

[jdc_usmc]

57. Nope

I was just there; there are tons of it.

[file83]

72. But don't you think that's WHY there isn't any available for civilian use?

:shrug:

[formercia]

28. I've noticed it too.

If a manufacturer has a contract with the DOD, civilian production comes second. One of the reasons for the increased cost of ammunition is that the US subsidizes the copper producers by using copper and brass as the primary constituents in small arms ammunition. The cost of Copper has gone from about 50 cents in 2002 to about $2.60 per pound at the last market close.Zinc and Lead have also gone up.

The tremendous consumption of ammunition in the War has caused some severe shortages, to the point of being critical. We can't afford to get into another conflict, the troops would run out in a short time.

During WWI, it was almost impossible to buy sporting bullets due to war production. I see the same thing happening. I've been telling my friends for the last few years to stock up. A lot of people have been doing the same.

[BiggJawn]

42. So most youse guys have HOW many thousands of rounds...

...in the basement already?

How's the availability of stuff like 12Ga buckshot, slugs, .45ACP, .30-30, .308, .303, .30-06, .22LR, etc. etc. etc...

Bet 40MM Bofors rounds are hard to get, too.

[formercia]

46. If I get below 10k, I start to lose sleep at night. n/t

[BiggJawn]

48. (snicker) well, stop practicing with the BIG stuff so much!

:hi:

[formercia]

49. Got to keep in practice.

I enjoy the abuse. lol

[benEzra]

63. Few hundred rounds of 7.62x39mm

So most youse guys have HOW many thousands of rounds in the basement already?

Few hundred rounds of 7.62x39mm since my wife and I both have rifles in that caliber. Couple hundred rounds of 9mm since we both have 9mm handguns. Sixty to eighty rounds of 7.62x54 for the Mosin-Nagants, but with an M44, a little ammunition goes a LONG way...recoil and muzzle blast are way worse than with the little x39's...

Bet 40MM Bofors rounds are hard to get, too.

Yeah...not to mention the six-to-eight month background check, and the $200 per round NFA DD tax and BATFE Form 4...

[Agony]

51. Scarce because

a 28 guage loaded with 7 1/2 for bear at 10 paces is now the official Uncle Sam load!

[benEzra]

69. LOL! (n/t)

[xultar]

54. Nope it is Iraq. I have a friend that used to work in the military and

she and I discussed the shortage right after the war in Iraq started.

Bush and the gang were no where near prepared for the long haul in Iraq.

They are having issues getting ammo for the troops too.

[jdc_usmc]

56. Really?

Really? I was just there February to September, and I had all the ammo I wanted and needed. Glad I didn't know about this ammunition shortage, that might have been SCARY.

[xultar]

58. I don't think they wanted anyone to know. Keep in mind this wasn't

supposed to last this long.

[BrotherBuzz]

59. The military had a real shortage here so you wouldn't have one there...

Those military planners are smart that way. Nevertheless the military faced a real shortage toward the end of 2004 and it impacted training in the states. I believe the shortage was resolved to some degree by purchasing small arms round overseas. They call it outsourcing, but "As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want," - Rumsfeld

[jdc_usmc]

77. Military Logistics and appropriations

Yes, our military logisticians are smart. We're lucky to have them. Rumsfeld is EXACTLY right, you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want. Damn Roosevelt for not giving the soldiers at Normandy better body armour! Our defense budget is controlled by Congress. The sad part is, it's controlled by members of the appropriations committees and not the armed services committees, so because it's one of the largest appropriation bills, it gets badly abused and is full of pork. Not at all the fault of anyone in the military or the DoD, or the executive branch for that matter. Do you really think any President is going to veto a defense appropriations bill because Sen Byrd added an 18 lane highway to the bill?

Defense spending as percentage of GDP is the the lowest it's been since the end of WWII, if you take out the Clinton years. During the Clinton years, it was even lower and bottomed out as a percentage of GDP. So, can you blame Clinton for the military shortfalls (and there were many) that Bush inherited? Not really if you look at my first paragraph. Really, we can blame the American people for not insisting that we maintain a stronger military. These same people who didn't push for, or even protested against, defense spending in the past now want to blame Bush and Rumsfeld for the state of the military before the invasion of Iraq. Hindsight is great.

If there was an ammo shortage, the military logisticians did an excellent job of minimizing the impact of it, because I trained for and deployed to Iraq, as a reservist, and I saw no evidence of this shortage. This ammo is pretty hard to come by right now (I know, I'm trying to buy some for my new AR15,) but the military is probably PROACTIVELY replenishing their stocks. My reserve unit, which just go back from Iraq and is therefore not first in line as a priority for ammunition, is still getting all the ammo we want when we go to the rifle range in two weeks. The military supply and logistics system is doing miracles every day in Iraq, with the help of companies like KBR and Halliburton. Yup, I said it. They provided housing on our bases, when my A/C was broke, they fixed it in hours, and when I got a chance to eat on a firm base or work out in a gym, the facilities were top notch. I could care less what the government is paying for them. Is there another company that could do that?

The true success story right now with the military is the medical care. Casualties (US, coalition, Iraq, and yes TERRORISTS) are on a top notch operating table within an hour regardless of where they were injured.

[benEzra]

60. AK's and civilian AK lookalikes aren't high-caliber...

7.62x39mm is the least powerful of all .30 caliber rifle cartridges, and is about 50% as powerful as a .30-06 deer rifle.

But the price HAS gone through the roof, though; we're talking a 200% to 300% price increase. It's still more economical than the more powerful calibers (less powder, less lead, less copper), but not so much as it used to be.

7.62x39mm. The reasons for the 7.62x39mm supply shortage/price hike are multiple:

(1) the world's major supplier of 7.62x39mm ammunition (Russia) has been busy filling international orders from Venezuela, Iraq, and other nations, so the supply to the U.S. market has been squeezed. Wolf, Barnaul, and Silver Bear are ALL Russian brands, and a lot of their production has been diverted from civilian to military recently.

(2) the New Orleans gun confiscations, which drove a lot of people to stock up on ammunition out of a realization that if they ever do need a gun, they probably won't be able to buy ammo for it;

(3) the fact that 7.62x39mm rifles (SKS carbines, civilian AK lookalikes, Ruger Mini Thirty) are now among the most popular centerfire rifles in America. I believe the SKS is now the single most common rifle in American homes, and if it has not yet attained that status, it's almost there.

(4) these rifles are a lot of fun to shoot, and as a result they tend to get a lot of range time (I know mine does).


.223 Remington/5.56x45mm. .223/5.56mm civilian ammunition is still widely available and prices don't seem to have gone up much, but the military surplus stuff has pretty much dried up. No surprise, as the supply of 80's and 90's manufacture milsurp was limited, and once it's gone, it's gone. For obvious reasons, there isn't any "surplus" any more, as the military is using all they can get.


.50 BMG. (Yes, this one is high-caliber.) The war hasn't really affected civilian supply of .50 BMG ammo, as I understand it; rather, the shortages of .50 ammo can be laid solely at the feet of Ahnold the Governator and his cronies, who passed the hysteria-driven freeze on .50 BMG target rifles in California and as a result instantly quadrupled sales nationwide. Everybody who buys one also buys ammo for them, so the influx of new .50 shooters is IMHO solely responsible for that one.

[solinvictus]

68. Reasons for inflation..

Yep, the confiscations in New Orleans were BS, pure and simple. It's ironic that the police and National Guard wouldn't shoot looters and further, they took guns from law abiding survivors so they couldn't defend themselves either.

You're correct about the SKS, it's displaced the old Marlin and Winchester 30/30 lever actions as the cheap rifle of choice, understandably so. The SKS has the same terminal ballistics as a 30/30 for a third of the cost of ammunition with a semi-automatic carbine.

[solinvictus]

67. I'm ordering five boxes of .303 British tonight...

From Cheaper Than Dirt. I think we're in for a rocky road ahead and I'd rather have ammunition than not. Next week, a friend and I are splitting a 300 round surplus box from Midway. The stuff I ordered tonight is Czech made FMJ and I bought a box of Remington Corelockt soft points at a sporting goods store tonight.

[Paladin]

70. I Bet You Can Get All The .270 and 7mm Magnum Ammo You Want

Of course, guns chambered for rounds like that don't have large-capacity magazines, military-styled plastic stocks, flash suppressors and bayonet lugs, the kind of features that our resident gun activists can't seem to live without, things that contribute to the all-important goal of making a firearm look "scary."

Further evidence of formerly respectable shooting activities devolving to the level of a trash sport in this country. With trashy, right-wing political sentiments as an accompaniment. Pretty sad....

[-..__...]

79. A bit of an elitist attitude there.

Skiers complain about snowboarders... sailboaters complain about jet-skiers, etc.

There's room (and respect), for everyone. In any given situation there's always going to be the irresponsible asshole who ruins it for everyone else.

Personally, I'm not into hunting type firearms or calibers (I don't hunt); nor am I into (nor can I afford), $10,000 over-under imported shotguns for sporting clays or skeet shooting.

I've experienced this attitude a few times (as others here have I'm sure). "What'choo need one of them fer... ain't no good fer hunting". "It's folks like you that make all the trouble fer us and gives them demi-crats an excuse to ban all our gunz".

Yeah, dude... whatever. :eyes:

ETA: Getting away from the "evil black rifle disease"... I do have some money tied up in reloading dies and precsion tools for my Remington 700 PSS "sniper rifle" and RRA NM LAR-15 A2..

Benchrest is relaxing... plinking and unloading a full 30 mag is letting it all hang out.

:smoke:

[file83]

71. Options? There are only 2...

1. Use a smaller caliber weapon, hence more available ammunition.
2. Impeach Bush, End the Iraq War.

Until then, there is no end in site for this ammunition shortage.

[benEzra]

81. Umm...they *are*...guess you missed that?

Two of the three calibers discussed in the OP (7.62x39mm and .223 Remington) ARE among the smallest centerfire rifle calibers in common use. Offhand, I can't think of a single common centerfire rifle cartridge LESS powerful than the .223 Remington/5.56x45mm, and the 7.62x39mm (.30 Russian Short) is the least powerful of .30 caliber rifle rounds.

You can't get much lower powered than that without going either to pistol cartridges or rimfires.

.50 BMG is another story, but the reasons for the .50 shortage is more a reflection of the recent surge in sales of .50 caliber target rifles, thanks to Ahnold the Governator and Dianne Feinstein.

[EstimatedProphet]

73. It's not an effective method

Reloading is too easy

[sendero]

74. I've had..

.... a bunch of 7.62x39 on backorder since November. They just pushed the ship date out another month. Somehow, I doubt I'll ever see the stuff.

[leftofthedial]

76. who is the "they" doing this controlling?

in the paranoid gun nut world?

[hedgehog]

78. So all you guys with guns,

you're free as long as you can keep buying ammo?

What happens when you run out of ammo?

It sounds like we better keep investing our efforts in preserving our form of government by rule of law rather than by engaging in fantasies of militias.

[benEzra]

80. Non sequitur...

So all you guys with guns, you're free as long as you can keep buying ammo?

What happens when you run out of ammo?

It sounds like we better keep investing our efforts in preserving our form of government by rule of law rather than by engaging in fantasies of militias.

Non sequitur. Owning civilian guns with modern styling, and supporting the right to own same, does not constitute "engaging in fantasies of militias."

I am with you on investing our efforts in preserving our form of government by rule of law. BTW, it's not the gun owners who keep making this a national issue; it's those who keep trying to BAN them who keep dredging this up and making it an issue.

As long as legislators keep their sticky fingers out of our gun safes, we can work together on the issues everyone SAYS are more important, yes?