Josh Marshall Blows away "London Times" Niger Forgeries Article!

[KoKo]

(Some here will remember that Josh Marshall and Linda Rozen (War & Piece) led the first investigation into Niger Forgeries and CBS 60 Minutes was scheduled to run with their investigation but the Rather AWOL Debaucle canceled the piece with Ed Bradley. The "London Times" article is propaganda spin..ignore it if you want the truth.)

Here's what Josh says to all those who have e-mailed him about LT's article coming out tomorrow:

--------------


A number of readers have written in with this link to a Raw Story teaser about a piece on the Niger forgeries set to run in tomorrow's Sunday Times of London.

(Josh posts "snip" from London Times article.....)

Look closely. If this is an accurate representation of what the story will contain, it is about an Italian government investigation. That's all you need to know.

The Italian intelligence services were centrally involved in the clandestine distribution of the forgeries and in all likelihood the creation of the forgeries themselves. Everything the Italian government has done since then has been to impede any outside investigation into their role.

There's simply no reason to credit anything an Italian government investigation of this matter reveals. If anything, its findings are probably a good bet to be the exact opposite of what is a. And the timing of such a release is no doubt in response to indications that at least two US news organizations will release new, damaging revelations about their role in the not-too-distant future.
-- Josh Marshall
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/.

[acmavm]

1. So, is the Italian government lying or just 'mistaken'? Is Berlusconi

doing this for his buddy bush**, or is the Italian government full or idiots?

[seemslikeadream]

2. Thanks KoKo01

for starting this thread. There was confusion on the other one and I probably contributed to it. Didn't mean to.

[KoKo]

3. no problem....I've been clicking Josh and Rozen's blogs all afternoon

trying to find out what they thought about this...because it smelled. I don't know why Raw Story ran with it...but they are newer than when Josh and Linda worked on it and may have been unaware of the long background with 60 Minutes cancelling this expose.

Salon has the whole Bradley show somewhere in their archives of what Josh and Linda had worked on.

Another "Memory Hole" thing...but your links always keep the story alive.

:hi:

[sheelz]

4. The LT article is out now

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2125630,00.html

[KoKo]

5. Thanks....I'll pass it up as "Disinfo....Propaganda."

:D

[sheelz]

6. Why is he doing this....

he was part of the "Downing Street Memo"

[lala_rawraw]

27. I repeat....

Michael Smith is a solid journalist and he is not reporting tha "he, Michael Smith has done an investigation and found blah blah" rather, he is reporting what the Italians and MI6 have found. I hate when people don't back a good journalist because that journalist reports something they don't happen to like. He is not spreading garbage, he is reporting on the Italians, Butler, and Mi6 findings.

[sheelz]

36. Thanks for the information...

I saw your post below. You've already explained this. I never said Micheal Smith wasn't a solid journalist. I was replying to the previous post, #5, who said Michael Smith's article is "Disinfo....Propaganda."

[lala_rawraw]

57. Same psychos

just different journo, pick a journo any journo that the left respects and you will have implanted inside the left a Segretti type cancer to help instill doubt about the credibility of that journalist. so when you see posts like that, just tell them to run along, as DU does not welcome journo bashing... media whore bashing yes, journo bashing no:) sorry if I responded to you by accident instead of pscyho disinfo boy/girl... i am having enter key issues lately, namely, i want to keep hitting enter until sanity returns:)

[seemslikeadream]

7. Breaking: The Identity of the Niger Document Forgers

:shrug:

http://americaabroad.tpmcafe.com/node/28683

Breaking: The Identity of the Niger Document Forgers - Bush's 16 words to 'justify' war
By Marc Parent | bio
Bush's 16 words
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

===
April 9, 2006
Michael Smith
Reporter on defence issues
The Sunday Times

Excerpts:

According to NATO sources who spoke to the SUNDAY TIMES, the investigation has evidence that Niger's consul and its ambassador's personal assistant faked a contract to show Saddam Hussein had bought uranium ore from the impoverished west African country.

The documents, which emerged in 2002, were used in a State Department fact sheet on Iraq's weapons programme to build the case for war. They were denounced as forgeries by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) shortly before the 2003 invasion.

The revelation spawned a series of conspiracy theories, most alleging that the British, Italians, or even Dick Cheney, the American vice-president, had had a hand in forging them to back the case for war.

According to the SUNDAY TIMES' sources, an official investigation believes Adam Maiga Zakariaou, the consul, and Laura Montini, the ambassador's personal assistant, known as La Signora, forged the papers for money.

[KoKo]

8. This is curious...because it seems to be under "Reader Blogs" on TPC

I hit the bio and it says he's a "newbie" on TPC..?

:crazy:

I'll e-mail Josh to see what the heck is going on..... I subscribe...don't know Josh personally...didn't want to sound like I was some kind of insider or something, btw... But, it's quite curious....

[mom cat]

11. Minor detail: Would officials from Niger have produced such sloppy

documents so as to get the names of Officials from Niger WRONG? This sounds like a cover story : meant to cover what little of Cheney that is still not quite visible.

[sheelz]

15. I understand that they were sloppy.

Why is Michael Smith covering for Cheney?

[lala_rawraw]

28. oh for god's sake, he is not covering

for anyone, he is covering the investigation damn it!!!!

[sheelz]

34. I wish you were here 3 1/2 hours ago to explain this.

[lala_rawraw]

56. Sorry, am trying to work, but this makes me crazy honestly

The left really does deserve the press it gets because it will not rage against a press that has. Smith broke the DSM stories and nearly went to jail. He broke the bombings stories, and nearly went to jail. He is a 20 year intel reporter and he is the equal to our Sy Hersh there. It drives me up a wall when people attack the journalist's credibility when they don't like a story, but no one realizes that when you do that, you then put into question all the work they have done before and will do moving forward. He saw this thread and he is a bit upset as he had recently really got to liking blogs and has one of his own. This is just not right.

I am not aiming this at you Sheelz, I am merely venting to you. I cannot emphasize enough, back your journos, back them against plagiarism, against smear tactics, etc. If anyone reads the article they will realize that it is not in any way excusing any administration official, rather, it is simply a report on the investigation. But here is a link to his blog, where he does discuss some of this:

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2006/04/nigergate_ii_th.html#more

Anyway Sheelz, next time, I leave you in charge of defending good people if I am three hours missing:) Thanks hon and please consider what I have said and try to staple it to the forehead of every person who wants a free press:D

[sheelz]

59. Hi LaLa

What happened last night was mass confusion. I believe everyone had the best intent of finding out the facts and searching for truth. I was hoping someone would come along and clear up all the confusion. Confusion on a saturday night is awful. Well, sometimes. :evilgrin:

Furthermore, the Niger issue is complex and I know it can make me dizzy. On top of that, I believe the problem was choosing between Marshall's and Smith's take on the issue. Because of a lack of information--people were in a tizzy. People were trying to work out the issue, "out loud" while online. The vetting process is essential to truth-seekers. Now that we have Smith's blog and Marshall's extended post--we are better informed.

The administration has been a frightful learning experience. One, I'll never forget nor forgive. We're all a little whacked out-- understandably.

I know it makes you crazy. :hug: It's also understandable. It's safe to say, you'll be seeing more of this in the future. Hey, it comes with success. :thumbsup: Take heart, you'll be a better journo for it. All of us support free press and we're willing to fight for it. Truth-seekers can be a pain in the ass, sometimes. :) Hang in there, ok? I applaud you in your endeavors-- keep on searching for truth and reporting it.

Peace

[hootinholler]

42. That was the first thing that popped into my head as well.

Even a poor forgery by a Nigerian ambassador would have the letterhead etc, right.

-Hoot

[Up2Late]

20. It does look rather thin (what is written about in the Sunday Times)...

...but what worries me more is how this crap is going to be distorted by the RW Noise Machine, Check this out:

<http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/04/08/1554392.htm>

...Niger diplomats reportedly forged documentROME, April 8 (UPI) -- Two diplomats from Niger faked documents the Bush administration used to support the invasion of Iraq, The Times of London reports.

Citing NATO sources, the newspaper reported an investigation has shown that Niger's consul in Rome and the personal assistant to its ambassador forged a contract with Saddam Hussein purporting to show he had been trying to buy uranium ore, known as yellowcake.

The forgery was allegedly carried out for financial gain, after the ambassador's assistant was recruited by a former Italian police officer working as a French agent. When she passed on a report about a visit by a top Iraqi official to Niger, she was told that any proof Saddam was buying or trying to buy uranium would be well rewarded.

The French reportedly passed information based on the forgery to the British and to the United States.

The yellowcake story led to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson's investigative trip to Niger, which then led to his open break with the Bush administration and the 2003 leak of his wife's identity as a CIA agent....

I'm not familiar with the "TCMnet .com", But, I do know UPI NewsTrack (who are very uncharacteristically all over this in less than 4 hours), They are one of, if not the largest sources of distorted news on the internet. This story was just made for them to run with.
:mad:

[sheelz]

23. I'm not familiar with TMCnet

and UPI is owned by Rev. Moon. :puke: I really wouldn't know if this is uncharacteristic of UPI but it does seem strange for a saturday night.

I think we should wait for more information from Josh Marshall's blog.

[Trevelyan]

53. FYI The Moonies bought UPI. Many Christians do not know that the Rev.Moon

owns The Washington Times and try to tell as many conservatives as I can.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Italian magistrates can be very independent of the government

(eg the ones who have taken Berlusconi to court) so to dismiss an investigation by one of them as automatically unreliable is premature. We'd need to know the track record of the magistrate.

[rodeodance]

25. I agree, ---why so eager to dismiss a story by Micheal Smith?

[lala_rawraw]

29. right, since they were the few to actually charge their own government

with the false flag p2 operations, unlike (fill in the blank)

[kitkat65]

10. Well, I'm confused because there's two sets of documents

-snip-

Some time in 2002, however, they obtained another apparently incriminating document, the source said. This was a letter purporting to be from al-Zahawie relating to a visit to Niger in 1999 to discuss the possible supply of uranium. This did not constitute evidence that Niger had agreed to supply yellowcake but it did indicate Saddam was trying to obtain it.

The letter, deemed “credible” by the Butler inquiry into Iraq intelligence (my note: later proved as fake by the IAEA), appears to be the evidence that led to Bush’s claim in January 2003 that the British had “learnt that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa”.

The French passed copies to MI6 with caveats to protect their source. The British could tell the CIA Iraq had tried to obtain yellowcake from Niger but not about the actual letter.

-snip-

This story is about the initial contract forgeries and states that an Italian government investigation found these forgeries were done by these two Niger embassy folks.

So who did the other forgeries?

[KoKo]

13. Two sets of documents might be the "key." Maybe Smith is focused on

one set and Marshall and Rozen focused on the other set.

My GAWD this is like a Spy Novel....sheesh.

I'm going to give it up for the night and watch a movie. I did e-mail Josh and asked him to clarify for those of us who don't know what the heck to believe anymore. Maybe he will post something on his blog to clarify this. He says to look closely at the Italian Govt's Investigation and yet TPC site has a newbie blogger putting up the London Times Article that Josh says we should question. Are they the same forgeries or as your article points out there are TWO different forgeries. One that went to Blair and one that Bushies had. And, how do they differ or do they? Bush/Cheney and the "Crime Family" always said the French and the Brits had documents verifying Niger. Did Bush know that there were TWO SETS? That they were different so he could claim they were the same when they were different?

I feel like "We the People" are pawns on a chessboard in this...all of it...

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. Yes, 2 documents, according to Smith

One, forged by the consul and his assistant, purported to be a contract to supply uranium to Iraq. This was given to the French (date not specified in Smith's piece), but they rejected it as a forgery. In autumn 2002, they gave it to the Italian journalist, who passed it on to the American embassy for verification. The CIA ignored it (thought it was a forgery), but the State Dept referred to it when replying to Iraq's declaration of having no WMD in late 2002. The IAEA asked to see it, and debunked it when they did in early 2003.

The other, 'obtained' some time in 2002, was a letter apparently from the Iraqi ambassador to the Vatican, saying that supplying yellowcake had been discussed in 1999. Smith doesn't seem to say if he thinks this was a fake or not. This was also shown to the French, who thought it reliable enough to show to the British - but told them not to reveal the actual letter to the Americans, because they'd be bound to leak it, endangering the French source. So the Americans wer just given the general "attempt to get yellowcake" story, which went into the SotU speech.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

44. Important key - IAEA waited and waited and asked and asked

for a copy of your first mentioned forgery. They heard about it, but Cheney would never send a copy. That's why the whole thing stunk to high heaven. They held on to it and didn't send to IAEA until it was too late to have their opinion affect the SOTU. Actions totally opposite from what a prudent, honest leader would do.

[savemefromdumbya]

22. What happened to Rocco Martino and that crew?

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=7256

[sandnsea]

12. Some still believe they're real

My son was online yesterday with some wingnuts that still claim the documents weren't forgeries. Regardless of who forged them, at least this article clearly states they were forgeries. That's something anyway.

[Garbo 2004]

14. Smith's article cites "NATO sources." Are these the same sources who

previously disseminated disinformation regarding a nonexistent Italian Parliamentary investigation report and claimed that Fitzgerald had requested and received copies of it? As I recall, UPI's Martin Walker cited "NATO sources" when he reported that Fitz had been given a copy of the report. Even UPI's Richard Sale (who broke the "Hannah under pressure to flip" story in Feb 2004) reported that Fitz had gotten a copy of the report.

Laura Rozen followed up on that story (and she has the contacts to do so) and said she found there had been no such Italian parliamentary investigation and ergo, no report. And consequently Fitz could not have gotten a copy of a report that didn't exist.

As far as Rozen could determine, the "Italian investigation and report" disinformation that was being spread around was said to have originated from sources in the US. (Rozen's "The Report That Wasn't" here: http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002983.html )

Anyway, just wondering whether seeing "NATO sources" again cited means the same disinformation crew that previously bit reporters are at it again.

[peacetalksforall]

17. Culpable national leaders get ' boomeranged'. Is anyone surprised

that Italy was 'selected' for the deception? Generous and willing coalition partner. That's what right wing partners do, Extend a helping hand. Berlusconi owns much of the press In Italy. Yes, the who is who knowledge is very important here.

There was a 2003 New Yorker magazine article about Berlusconi. His devotion to Bush was plainly worded. B's ownership domination of the press was detailed.


I hope we end up learning that the Italians are as fed up with B as we are with our George.

I hope Josh is right about the posturing by U.S. newspapers.

[Garbo 2004]

18. Laura Rozen's take on the info given to Smith by his NATO sources:

April 08, 2006

This sounds like Italian government disinformation to me. As I reported in The American Prospect recently, "La Signora" almost certainly got the Niger forgeries from the Italian intelligence agency Sismi, for which she had worked as a Sismi mole inside two African embassies in Rome for decades:

Until now, press reports have indicated that La Signora concocted these documents in the Niger embassy with the help of an official from Niger. But new evidence suggests she got them from officers within SISMI itself.

The Prospect has independently confirmed that Martino identified two other SISMI agents, along with Nucera, who were involved in the forgery scheme from the beginning. According to a source who checked out the names Martino provided with SISMI contacts, the second agent “was a major in the Army, and he is now a SISMI branch chief,” and the third was brought to SISMI from the Guardia di Finanzia by SISMI director Nicolo Pollari. “Because of this, he can do no wrong,” this source said. Nucera and a second SISMI official involved in the Niger scheme work in SISMI’s eighth directorate on weapons-of-mass-destruction counterintelligence, while the third SISMI official works in the agency’s first directorate.

After the Italian elections Sunday, more is likely to come out on this. Posted by Laura at April 8, 2006 06:05 PM http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003993.html

Rozen's Feb 22, 2006 American Prospect article here: http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=11197

[Emit]

19. Did you catch Michael Smith's blog entry?

Is this the same guy who wrote the article in the Sunday Times?

April 08, 2006
Nigergate II: The Strange Case of the Burglar Who Didn’t Want Money
The revelations in today’s Sunday Times that two employees of the Niger embassy in Rome forged documents apparently proving Niger was selling uranium to Iraq are unlikely to end the conspiracy theories that swirl around the Niger Affair, and not just because the investigation into the Plamegate affair will run and run. There are still a number of minor mysteries that require further investigation, particularly two burglaries in Rome, one at the Niger embassy over the 2001 New Year’s holiday and one at the home of the Niger consul on January 31, 2001. Both break-ins baffled the Italian police, not least because the burglar didn’t seem to be interested in taking any money.

Then there is the fact that some of the alleged Martino documents published in the Italian press appear to be different in a number of respects to the ones that were passed to the US embassy in Rome and eventually to the International Atomic Energy Authority which denounced them as fakes. How could this be? It makes you wonder whether, with the intelligence market drying up for the freelance peddlers of information, they have found an alternative market among elements of the Italian press.

But there might be something more sinister at work. Certainly the Italian authorities appear to think so, briefing darkly to their relatively few friends in the Italian press that the French are deliberately muddying the waters, implicating Italian intelligence officers in the affair to draw attention away from the fact that it was their agent, Rocco Martino, who put the documents into circulation in the first place. Martino was a French spy, run by the French secret service station in Brussels and paid a retainer of between 1,500 and 2,000 Euros a month for his services. If any intelligence service was responsible for the appearance of the forged Niger documents, so the argument goes, it was the French intelligence service, the DGSE.

I have always found the “blame the French argument” suspicious. It has been put to me on a number of occasions and I have never used it, or indeed believed it. Certainly the break-ins took place long before any of the controversy over Iraqi WMD. Bush was barely in office in January 2001. But my research into the Niger affair has uncovered a number of strange facts that suggest there may be more to the French involvement in the affair than I previously believed. An investigation of the various documents that appeared in the Italian press has apparently found that a number of them were faxed from French fax numbers, others were tracked in emails sent via a French server.

Cont'd here: http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2006/04/nigergate_ii_th.html

[KoKo]

21. I just read it...and it seems to be...

but it's all very confusing at this point to me. Seems every reporter has a different angle of this story they are working on.

This article seems to say the French were more involved than anyone thought.. Who knows...but hopefully if Berlusconi is voted out maybe we will find out more..or we wait for the US Newspapers to break more...but I hope it's not the NYT's or WaPo...I don't find them reliable anymore....

:shrug:

[Up2Late]

24. I think you folks are making this more confusing than it needs to be.

Here's the deal. As several here have pointed out, most, if not all of what is in the Sunday Times is BS. But that really matters little, because of the way this sort of crap info spreads these days, and it already has started.

What happens is this:

1)This very long and confusing article appears in the Sunday Times. It's written in very vague and general terms, at least in the first few paragraphs, for ease of editing and distortion.

2)Next, News Corp, UPI and even AP, pick this up and edit it down to something more easily read by the average (8th grade reading level) American. (see below for the actual UPI NewsTrack edit that I already found within the linked web page):

<http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2006/04/08/1554392.htm>

...Niger diplomats reportedly forged documentROME, April 8 (UPI) -- Two diplomats from Niger faked documents the Bush administration used to support the invasion of Iraq, The Times of London reports.

Citing NATO sources, the newspaper reported an investigation has shown that Niger's consul in Rome and the personal assistant to its ambassador forged a contract with Saddam Hussein purporting to show he had been trying to buy uranium ore, known as yellowcake.

The forgery was allegedly carried out for financial gain, after the ambassador's assistant was recruited by a former Italian police officer working as a French agent. When she passed on a report about a visit by a top Iraqi official to Niger, she was told that any proof Saddam was buying or trying to buy uranium would be well rewarded.

The French reportedly passed information based on the forgery to the British and to the United States.

The yellowcake story led to former Ambassador Joseph Wilson's investigative trip to Niger, which then led to his open break with the Bush administration and the 2003 leak of his wife's identity as a CIA agent....

3) This edited and distorted version will spread like a virus in the next 6 to 12 hours, to the point that only the dogged internet sleuths will ever find the original version in the Sunday Times <http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-2125630,00.html>.

I've seen this happen before, and it looked just like what's happening now.

I'm not familiar with the "TCMnet .com", But I do know UPI NewsTrack (who are very uncharacteristically, all over this in less than 4 hours), They are one of, if not the largest sources of, distorted news on the internet. This story was just made for them to run with.
:mad:

NOTE: If you want to see how much this viral spread has progressed, Google this at Google News ("Adam Maiga Zakariaou" "Laura Montini") without the parentheses, and check out the results.
:-(

[Up2Late]

30. OH, WEIRD! Something very strange just happened.

I went back to Google news to see how much this had spread, and when I hit "refresh," the "14 Related" link changed to "3 related."

It looks like all the bogus storied were pulled! Or at least, deleted from stories that "Google News" could see.


Maybe they are re-editing the Dis-Info or they know we're on to them.

[lala_rawraw]

26. Michael Smith is

a solid journo and everyone assumes that Smith reporting on the Italian gov investigation means that it was "only the Niger officials" and it was "only Martino" and characters. he is simply reporting on the Italian investigation, its findings, and the low level folks on the ground... the bigger story of course is who were their handlers... so one need not exclude the other. Smith is not wrong in covering what the Italians are finding or claim to be, that need not make it "all there is."

[drm604]

32. lala,

It's not my intent to in anyway attack Michael Smith and I'd be perfectly happy to be proven wrong about this, but the story just makes no sense to me. From here: http://www.slate.com/id/2085616

March 14, 2003—CNN
David Ensor of CNN cites "knowledgeable sources" who say one of the forged documents, a letter discussing the uranium deal with Iraq, contains the faked signature of Tandja Mamadou, the president of Niger. He continues, "Another, written on paper from a 1980s military government in Niger, bears the date of October 2000 and the signature of a man who by then had not been foreign minister of Niger for 14 years."

That's just one example, of course. It's accepted fact that the things were obvious crude forgeries. Therefore the claim must assume that Niger's consul and Niger's ambassador's personal assistant wouldn't have carefully copied a signature of Mamadou's (which they certainly would have had access to), and wouldn't have known better than to use obsolete stationary and wouldn't have known who the foreign minister of Niger was in October 2000. Now, it's conceivable that they were rushed or incompetent but IMHO the more likely explanation is that Mr. Smith is being fed disinformation.

If I'm missing something here then I would greatly appreciate being enlightened.

[lala_rawraw]

58. I think his blog explains this well

http://timesonline.typepad.com/mick_smith/2006/04/nigergate_ii_th.html#more

[Garbo 2004]

35. No slight intended to Smith on my part. Is he reporting on the Rome

prosecutor's (Franco Ionta) investigation? Or another Italian investigation?

Just that Smith's citation of NATO sources, after others seemed to have gotten bad info attributed to NATO sources in regards to a rumored parliamentary investigation/report that Rozen couldn't confirm ever existed, was a bit worrying. Of course I know they needn't be the same NATO sources, but it was an eyebrow raiser.

Thanks for any clarification.

[Canuckistanian]

31. Thanks for the heads-up

I'll wait for a second or third reading of the information.

[kentuck]

33. I think Josh is right on this one...

This is a diversion for stories still to unfold.

[formercia]

37. Dewey Claridge and Niger-Gate

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/niger-gate.html

There have been previous posts that mentioned the connection between Duane 'Dewey' Claridge and the Niger Docs. Dewey was once the station chief in Rome, and even though retired, he now runs a security company that runs black ops for Fearless Leader's gang that legitimate US Government organizations won't touch. I could go into more detail but without hard docs to back it up, Dewey would go on a rampage and having known him personally, I know him to be a very dangerous person.
Those of you who remember the events leading up to Iran Contra might review Dewey's Contra Assassination Manual to get some insights on 9/11.

Dewey's bunch make Murder Inc. look like Girl Scouts.

[magellan]

38. Flaming Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, I hate these people.

Thank you for that link, it cleared up a lot of my confusion.

Spies, traitors and terrorists, every last one of them. I'll go to bed this morning sending out my earnest wishes for their total and painful eradication from the face of this planet.

[KoKo]

50. Interesting....

thanks... we know that the same folks involved with Iran/Contra are all over DC and in Bushies Cabinet...Think Tanks, etc. Also the Mitch Wade intelligence jobs for the "Executive Office," that Josh's group has reported on. Lots of "Black Ops" going on by different groups. Counter-intelligence working against legit intelligence...groups with sidelines..

It's alot to sort out for those trying to track down and expose all the threads...

[formercia]

51. The Bushes went to contractors in the early 90's if not before

because legitimate government agencies complained that they were being asked to break the law.

Casey turned the Central America Task Force over to Ollie after a revolt among the ranks at the CIA.

I was a part of that revolt.

It later became what is known as Iran-Contra. The rest is History, more or less.

[annabanana]

39. Look how fast Josh is... how fast we have to be

to get out ahead of the lies and spin. We have to hit the page the same day that the lies do. Maybe we can keep this fib from digging in and further poisoning the soil. I am continually astounded by the quality and quantity of good work being done.

god bless the internets

[symbolman]

40. I've had this NAILED for more than a year

and the whole story in my film "Rove's War" -- I've got the SCOOP that Takebackthemedia.com had more than a year ago about who and how and when this all came to pass..

Here's the link to the Takebackthemedia.com site having the scoop on these docs more than a year ago. and on FILM for the last 5 months at least:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x885594

Josh is VERY CAREFUL about what he reports, what I'm wondering about now is what exactly was the SCOOP today that Raw Story was bandying about like a Prize bass or has it changed?

I think what has been a source of confusion is that there was some kind of SCOOP coming out of Raw Story, that was later explained as "excerpts" from someone else's article. How did it become a Raw Story Scoop?

From what I saw in the thread Raw Story was all over this, and it was a biggie, claiming that the forged documents were created for bucks by Niger insiders?

Ridiculous, the forgeries were created from a break in at the ROME EMBASSY, where Niger docs were stolen in 2000 to CREATE the false docs - the real culprits were, well, if you go to the TBTM link above you can see for yourself.

H2OMan should back me up on how my film "Rove's War" NAILED WHO and HOW and WHY these false docs were created, and it wasn't anyone in Niger or related to Niger..

Maybe I should go archive that thread before it get's 'changed' too much to keep the inaccuracies from being spun.

Gotta love that Josh, between him and firedoglake and DailyKos you can get the real story - but most of it is in my film, where I researched for a year THEN published it all.

How could anyone put any credit in the guys who FORGED the damn fakes INVESTIGATING THEMSELVES? Haven't we seen enough of that here with our own govt..

YOu TELL 'EM JOSH!

[H2O Man]

41. The Niger forgeries

were one of the subjects that we discussed long ago. I remember very clearly that you provided me with information that I had not acquired from any othr source. I do not have the exact date, and a good bit of our discussions were on e-mails (not threads) which I do not save. But my memory is clear on this.

I consider that to be one of the very strong parts of your "A+" film. I have long said that this scandal is a three leaf clover: Plame; neocon/AIPAC; and Niger forgeries. The forgeries are more significant than they may appear on the surface, because they show the reach that the coordinated effort to bring the US to war in Iraq had .... and this same group would extend the violence to Iran.

Last night, returning from a Golden Gloves championship card, my younger son's girl friend asked me what I thought of the military? I told her that I am convinced that those in power in Washington today have no more concern for our soldiers today, than the king in the movie Braveheart had for those he sent into battle to kill and die. She said that her family was pressuring her to join. I told her that my son had a movie that she needs to watch before she even begins to make a decision. I hope that the fact I would tell her to watch "Rove's War" gives folks an idea how valuable I consider the film to be.

[symbolman]

43. Thanks so much H2OMan

You inspired me so much with your fine writing and in depth work that I decided to try and make a film about it all, you are an inspiration to us all and so many people would have no idea how DEEP this goes if not for you.

I am honored that you think so highly of my little film to send it off to so many to watch, and I'm glad if it educates and entertains and if it keeps ONE PERSON from becoming FODDER for this "king" then all of our work has paid off, eh?

Many thanks for all you do!

[H2O Man]

46. It gets played

at the college my boy attends. And, if you do not mind, let me take a minute to explain why it is so important to use this film as a "teaching tool."

A while back, on DU, I again used my favorite model of the three groups in every political contest: (1) those who always agree with you; (2) those who always oppose you; and (3) the undecided. In every case, you try to aim your message at group #3 .... because they actually decide the outcome of every election, by either voting for you, against you, or not at all.

Another DUer, who disagreed with me strongly, though not bravely, opted to write a post saying that the "three groups" concept was a bunch of shit, and that real progressives will ignore it, and focus on group #1. So I responded, and will share the example I used to illustrate why I am right, and he is not.

My son is in a dorm with three other guys. He is a democrat; another guy is republican; and two guys are "undecided," and really don't see much connection between their lives and politics, or the war in Iraq.

The republican is trying to convince the other two to not only register and vote republican, but more, that they have an obligation to join the military and "protect the USA" from the looming threat of an attack from Iraq. (In answer to the obvious question, no -- he has not joined himself. Very republican in his belief that others should fight, kill, and die for his beliefs.)

Now, if there were an election today, my son's dorm might well be 1 vote democrat, one republican, and two non-voters. A tie.

But, no. My son has an autographed edition of "Rove's War." And all he needed to do, was play it for all four of them to watch. And so today, we have three votes for democratic candidates, and one for the republicans.

For many of these young adults, it is unrealistic to think they are going to wade through dozens of pages of Water Man essays. It's simply not the language they grasp. But the visual power of this film, and the tongue-in-cheek humor pulls them in. Minister Malcolm used to tell us that to communicate, you need to speak the language that your target audience speaks. I can say that this wonderful movie has the power to connect with college audiences.

Thank you for that.

[symbolman]

47. Wow...

I'm stunned. I've got to share this with my wife, amazing..

I've been fighting all these years to keep my own son from becoming cannon fodder, he's 19 now, and since I was drafted during Nam, and joined the USAF I didn't want our boys to NOT have a choice, to at least get some kind of information that wasn't all spin..

Looks like I made a difference, and all I can say is wow, I'm stunned.

Thanks so much for sharing that with me, glad that the kids like it as well, a good crowd and I was playing to them with the humor of The Daily SHow included, etc

I should think about sending off copies to all the universities and colleges and see if it gets played, you never know.

Thanks man. I will slept better today (4am where I am, I seem to never sleep) and soundly knowing I may have tipped the scales at least a little..

[formercia]

48. Very observant comment

quote:"Very republican in his belief that others should fight, kill, and die for his beliefs."

Or as Poppy would describe them as: "One fodder unit"

[seemslikeadream]

45. A thought on Michael Smith for consideration

Someone said to me this on Michael Smith


Michael Smith is a man I do not trust.

He was indeed the man that brought us the Downing Street Minutes (The Sunday Times still prefers "memo")

But the crucial point is that he sat on them first.
They were released at just that point in time that there was not enough time to damage Blair, yet it could still be claimed that the voters knew ahead of the election.

I think it was four days before the country went to the polls.

From a close parsing of his subsequent words it seems he held back for a minimum of two weeks, and possibly as much as four weeks.
That much time would have buried Blair.

In his account he said he "did not realise the significance of the memo and so chose to run first another part of the material first"

[galatea]

49. what a waste of time

both the article and the rebuttal.

Regardless of what the media does or doesn't report, Bush won't be made accountable until a prominent Democrat calls him the lying war criminal and mass-murderer that he is.

Until then, these articles are irrelevant, on top of badly written.

[Trevelyan]

52. Does anyone have the link to a page that showed the amaturish logo on the

forgeries next to the real professional logo of the Niger Embassy?

[symbolman]

55. I put them both in my film side by side

to show how utterly ridiculous they were, like a child had drawn them, nonsense, and exposed by the IAEA within less than TWO HOURS by GOOGLING!

There is no way anyone could have fallen for them, and of course as usual Bush was using the brits as a foil in this escapade, so show how far he'd go he even got so stupid as to repeat a line Tony B Liar made in Britain, that WE could be attacked in less than 45 minutes, Bush repeated that twice, once on the radio address and then on the white house website (may even still be there, I showed that in the film), also in the Rose Garden, actually..

Now this would have been predicated on DISTANCE, MAYBE Iraq could have reached BRITAIN in 45 minutes (right, with an ICBM which they didn't have), but AMERICA?

WHo the hell let that little factoid slip from Bush's lips? And why didn't the media go, "COME ON!!! Are YOU NUTS?"

[Up2Late]

54. Here's the "The Australian" (News Corp) version of the article,

(BTW, The Sunday Times is part of News Corp too)

Large sections have been re-written. I'd love to know if Mr. Smith re-wrote these, because his name is still on the article. I find this a little unusual, because when AP does this, they at least take the original authors "by line" off the edited artical:<http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18763819-2703,00.html>

Forgers of Niger papers exposed

Michael Smith
April 10, 2006

THE forgers behind notorious documents used to help justify the Iraq war have been exposed.

NATO sources have revealed that Niger's consul in Rome, and the ambassador's personal assistant, produced a fake contract purporting to show Iraq had bought uranium ore from the west African country.

The documents were used by the US State Department in a presentation on Iraq's supposed weapons program to help build the case for war. The International Atomic Energy Agency denounced them as forgeries before the invasion in 2003.

The revelation of the forgers' identity has spawned conspiracy theories, most claiming US Vice-President Dick Cheney, the British or the Italians had a hand in fabricating the documents to back the case for war.

The story was still reverberating in Washington last week...,

<http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,18763819-2703,00.html>

Google News found a link to a NYPost version, but the link doesn't go to anything: <http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/2-0&fp=4439903c1a99f46d&ei=H145RJn4As3caJP_1I0B&url=http%3A//www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/64215.htm&cid=0>

(See my posts above in thread for UPI NewsTrack version of this story)