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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:48 PM
Original message
How a pro-war Republican thinks about the war
This is about the most disturbing thing I've read in a long time. It's by a scifi writer who supports the war, but thinks it's part of a broader Western-vs-Islamic megaconflict that's bound to expand into full-scale, decades-long war. He of course thinks that we're being way way too soft on all the Islamic world. The guy's a great writer, plenty smart, and of course just as wrong as spotted owl condoms on how he analyzes the war. But if you can hack it, it's a fascinating view of how far the mind must be bent in order to continue to support the war in Iraq.

Message from Dan

Excerpts:
I tried to relax. “What do you want to talk about?” I said.

“The Century War,” said the Time Traveler... “I mean the Century War with Islam. Your future. Everyone’s.” He was no longer smiling. Without asking, or offering to pour me any, he stood, refilled his Scotch glass, and sat again. He said, “It was important to me to come back to this time early on in the struggle. Even if only to remind myself of how unspeakably blind you all were.”

“You mean the War on Terrorism,” I said.

“I mean the Long War with Islam,” he said. “The Century War. And it’s not over yet where I come from. Not close to being over.”


<snip>

“Let’s imagine,” said the Time Traveler, “that on December eighth, Nineteen forty-one, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt spoke before a joint session of Congress and asked them to declare war on aviation.”

“That’s absurd,” I said.

“Is it?” asked the Time Traveler. “The American battleships, cruisers, harbor installations, Army barracks, and airfields at Pearl Harbor and elsewhere in Hawaii were all struck by Japanese aircraft. Imagine if the next day Roosevelt had declared war on aviation . . . threatening to wipe it out wherever we found it. Committing all the resources of the United States of America to defeating aviation, so help us God.”

“That’s just stupid,” I said. If I’d ever been afraid of this Time Traveler, I wasn’t now. He was obviously a mental defective. “The planes, the Japanese planes,” I said, “were just a method of attack . . . a means . . . it wasn’t aviation that attacked us at Pearl Harbor, but the Empire of Japan. We declared war on Japan and a few days later its ally, Germany, lived up to its treaty with the Japanese and declared war on us. If we’d declared war on aviation, on goddamned airplanes rather than the empire and ideology that launched them, we’d never have . . .”

I stopped. What had he called it? Category Error. Making the problem unsolvable through your inability – or fear – of defining it correctly.


<snip>

“Twenty-five years from now, every man or woman in America who wishes to vote will be required to read Thucydides on this matter. And others as well. And there are tests. If you don’t know some history, you don’t vote . . . much less run for office. America’s vacation from knowing history ends very soon now . . . for you, I mean. And for those few others left alive in the world who are allowed to vote.”

“You’re shitting me,” I said.

“I am shitting you not,” said the Time Traveler.

“Those few others left alive who are allowed to vote?” I said, the words just now striking me like hardthrown stones. “What the hell are you talking about? Has our government taken away all our civil liberties in this awful future of yours?”

He laughed then and this time it was a deep, hearty, truly amused laugh. “Oh, yes,” he said when the laughter abated a bit. He actually wiped away tears from his one good eye. “I had almost forgotten about your fears of your, our . . . civil liberties . . . being abridged by our own government back in these last stupidity-allowed years of 2005 and 2006 and 2007.


And it just goes on and on. It's fascinating because the guy who wrote this is clearly laying the groundwork for a let's-don't-call-it-fascist government, mostly justified by the threat from monolithic Islam, led by Iran. But if you want to see where the only logical justification of the pro-war stance must run, it's worth it to read this story.

The real irony here is that a sci-fi story dressed up as the importance of knowing history is itself built around a profound misinterpretation of the Peloponnesian war. Still, this Dan Simmons guy is a great writer and I'd gladly read one of his books--so long as he leave his dumbass politics out of it.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's ... interesting...

It's making my brain itch. I swear I've read something like this before, something much older and with a different political slant, i.e. not about Islam or about how genocide (and let's face it, that's what is being advocated) is all wonderful. What I'm recalling is that it was told in a similar style but was clearly ironic in its treatment.

Damn. This is going to drive me nuts, but I'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks for posting this.



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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oh bugger
I'm really depressed. Dan Simmons has been a favorite author for many years. His Hyperion Cantos, Endymion and the recent Ilium books are all classics of sci-fi.

Now it turns out he's a poorly informed, bigoted twat.

Just great.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. War based upon Arab world's humiliation...
Edited on Sun Apr-09-06 11:10 PM by EVDebs
The UN's Arab Human Development reports since 2002

http://www.rbas.undp.org/ahdr.cfm

have been put out in response to the journalism of Bernard Lewis's What Went Wrong,

What Went Wrong ?
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200201/lewis and others like Irshad Manji

The Trouble With Islam
http://www.muslim-refusenik.com /

The main problem with George Bush and the neocons/vulcans is thinking that it can be done FOR the Arab world, avoiding self-determination altogether. LIHOP/MIHOP not considered, the '14 permanent bases' etc. are now becoming evidence of occupation (permanently ?). Polls of Iraqis show this is behind support for the insurgents. Withdrawal from Iraq would be a good thing...Iraqis may want to invite a US presence back someday; now that would be evidence of self-determination !

The so-called Sword Verses of the Koran don't help much, either
http://www.angelfire.com/moon/yoelnatan/koranwarpassages.htm

The non-violent 'shake the dust from your sandals'

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/49-0007.htm

response is to ensure separation...the only rational response.

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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Aye caramba
Somebody has really gone off the deep end. :crazy:
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Tulum_Moon Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The deep end indeed!
I am sorry but what was your reference to a "spotted owl condom". What did that mean? I know they were threatened in the past. I am just asking. Thanks!
Peace.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Spotted owl condom?
I'm afraid I don't recall making such a reference, though the term sounds familiar. Perhaps somebody else made the reference somewhere. :shrug:
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Tulum_Moon Donating Member (556 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sorry Buffy
I am still new here and sometimes I reply to the wrong poster. I an also slow in typing and notice my replies end up many posts later. The kids bugging me don't help.
Thanks for being so nice about my mistakes!:hi:
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. No problem
Welcome to DU btw. :-)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I said that.
What could be more wrong than a condom for an endangered species? I leave it to your imagination whether I meant that the owls are using the condom or whether the condoms are made out of owls. But as a Texan I feel a certain obligation to use colorful, if meaningless, hyperbole more often than a centipede uses socks.
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. It must be a Southern/farmer thing
Or so the stereotype would go. In an old Garfield comic Garfield was poking fun at John's farmer family with exaggerated homilies like, "Paint me red and shove a crowbar up my nose" and "Stomp on frogs and slap me silly". :silly:
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Are you absolutely SURE this guy is supporting "the Century War"?
It sounds to me more like he's being extremely sarcastic, ridiculing the idea of a "War on Terror" or a war to the death between the West and the Islamic world. Check out this passage again:

"Those few others left alive who are allowed to vote?” I said, the words just now striking me like hardthrown stones. “What the hell are you talking about? Has our government taken away all our civil liberties in this awful future of yours?”

He laughed then and this time it was a deep, hearty, truly amused laugh. “Oh, yes,” he said when the laughter abated a bit. He actually wiped away tears from his one good eye. “I had almost forgotten about your fears of your, our . . . civil liberties . . . being abridged by our own government back in these last stupidity-allowed years of 2005 and 2006 and 2007."

And then there's that bit about a "war on aviation." He's saying this makes just as much sense as a "war on terror" (in other words, no sense at all).

Maybe he needs to use the dripping-sarcasm smilie? :sarcasm:
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Not the war necessarily but...
I think his "war on aviation" metaphor (doing away with planes when we should have been fighting the Japanese and Germans) is meant to say that instead of fighting a "war on terror" we should be fighting Islam. I don't think he's saying the whole thing is a joke, just that we're after the wrong target.

I'll give it another read to see if I can see any other evidence of irony or sarcasm.
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Just read it again
and, if there's irony or scarcasm in there, it's a bit beyond me.

I think he's seriously advocating a war with Islam. Not only that, he's advocating the idea that we should start it and strike with total ruthlessness.

Dan has seriously lost his marbles.
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Kutjara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Have a look at the forums...
...on Simmonds site. They're even more rabid than his original story.

The decent into madness is racing ahead.
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-09-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Self made war
Self inflicted wounds
Not a good direction
But one which all have choice
Sad to say bush mad
Writer even more mad
Why fight

Why Long War with Islam?
I mean :rofl: US is a country
What has US got to do with fighting a religion
Ouch does it means that US people cannot practice any religion they want
Pure crazy bushit bushbot mad ass dumbfuck peabrain wasted human being

:rofl: LONG WAR WITH ISLAM :rofl:
Me wonder what his sex fantasy like.....:rofl:
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