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Nevada Test "Divine Strike", Tactical Nuke?

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:24 AM
Original message
Nevada Test "Divine Strike", Tactical Nuke?
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 12:26 AM by originalpckelly
You remember that big bomb called "Divine Strike":
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=nation_world&id=4041740

I wonder if that is really a tactical nuke? I mean who owns a geiger counter? How would anyone ever know if it was conventional or not? Isn't it ironic how we hear tactical nukes might be used against Iran and there is a test in June of some massive explosive? I mean this is highly speculative, but they could always blame the radiation on some left-over contaminated soil from the early nuke tests. Listen to the description of "Divine Strike" and it sounds exactly like a tactical nuke. How could something like that ever be developed into a conventional weapon? The thing is 700 tons, a C-5 (the biggest and best cargo plane we have) can only carry 135 tons. No plane can carry it. What are they supposed to do, build rail tracks out to the target? Something smells fishy with this. I don't know, like I said it is highly speculative, but when you hear someone talking about nukes, who thinks God talks to him, and the bomb test is called "Divine Strike", I start worrying don't you?

Here is the article about the C-5:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-5_Galaxy

Look at how much it can carry, it can carry 270,000 pounds and that divided by 2000 pounds (1 Short Ton) is 135.
Here is the ton article too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton
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Karmakaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. The biggest heavy lift aircraft in the world...
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 12:34 AM by Karmakaze
The Russian Antonov 225 holds the world record for heavy lifting, and it can only lift 250 tons. I don't think this test is actually going to use a nuke, but it is definately a nuclear test. In this case they are testing what kind of damage a mini-nuke bunker buster can do to a bunker entrance.

They will take the data they gather from this test and put it into their models so they can accurately determine how big a bang they need to get the appropriate damage caused to the target. What they wont tell you is how much fallout it will generate:



Notice that a 1 kiloton nuke bunker buster will create 60,000 tons of fallout, and only be useful for destroying targets 80ft deep. In other words, the best they will be able to do is collapse the entrance tunnel to an underground bunker. A determined enough enemy could empty that tunnel out fairly quickly.

In the meantime, 60,000 TONS of highly radioactive fallout will be thrown thousands of feet into the air, to be spread wherever the wind takes it.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. Ballistic missile?
Just wondering.
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Karmakaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. No way...
The Saturn 5 could only lift 120 tons, and would cost 2 billion dollars to launch. There simply is no single vehicle large enough to transport a bomb this size to a land locked target like a bunker. The largest dump trucks used in minig can carry 350 tons, a train could be loaded with a bomb that size, but I doubt the Iranians or anyone else will let you build a railroad to their bunkers, A cargo ship could carry it, but not to the targets...

Basically the ONLY thing this test can be related to is a mini-nuke bunker buster.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Oh, so it's simulating a nuke with conventional explosives?
THAT makes sense, thank you.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. 1200 lbs. 1.2 tons
Easily dropped by any bomber.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
5. I just posted this...
...on a physics web forum I frequent often. We all are usually pretty good at simple math, so I think I'll have their conclusions soon. I think they will concur with me, and that it is impossible to deliver such a weapon if it is a conventional explosive. My God, I think Bush really has a messianic complex. I was just a little worried when I heard about it in the news, but my goodness now that the nut-case is thinking of using a nuke, I really am livid over this. The next Q & A session he does someone has to bring this up. I understand why so many high military commanders are willing to resign. People were always worried about Reagan blowing up the world, but it was never leaked he was planning a first strike. God, if you are talking to that nut could you please tell him to not blow up the world, pretty please, with cherries on top, but not mushrooms, okay?
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. The Radicals in Power Are Incapable of Nothing...

...particularly when they feel threatened.

That is why it's so important to get them out of power before they grow stronger.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Seismic signature will be instantly recognizable if it's nuclear
and it's possible they are using that yield against a simulated bunker just to get data on the force required to destroy it.

Given the admin's arrogance it's possible they'll do a nuke test and just deny it, in the face of overwhelming contradictory evidence.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't think that you can see the difference seismically
bury 1000 t of TNT (or whatever) or a 1 kt nuke and boom. The effect is the same except for radiation and initial heat.

The dominant effects of a nuclear weapon (the blast and thermal radiation) are the same physical damage mechanisms as conventional explosives, but the energy produced by a nuclear explosive is millions of times more per gram and the temperatures reached are in the tens of millions of degrees.

The energy of a nuclear explosive is initially released in the form of gamma rays and neutrons. When there is a surrounding material such as air, rock, or water, this radiation interacts with the material, rapidly heating it to an equilibrium temperature in about a microsecond. The hot material emits thermal radiation, mostly soft X-rays, which accounts for 75% of the energy of the explosion. In addition, the heating and vaporization of the surrounding material causes it to rapidly expand and the kinetic energy of this expansion accounts for almost all of the remaining energy


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_explosion


satellites will be able to detect increased radioactivity if there is a nuclear testing. The problem is that the spying nations won't say anything about it.

if they blew a nuke that near the ground, about 60 000 t of radioactive material would spread with the wind and could be detected. But since the ground is contaminated at the test site, a ground explosion with conventional explosives will spread radioactive material anyway.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. IIRC, during the previous nuclear testing era, US scientists tracked USSR
IIRC, during the previous nuclear testing era US scientists were able to track tests done by the USSR and China -- this info was then released to the general public. For some reason I seem to recollect seismic instruments playing a part in how our scientists gathered this information, and that they were always sure of the difference between nukes and earthquakes. This was prior to our having littered near space with spy satellites...

:shrug:

Hekate

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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. earthquakes a different
because it's two blocks of rock sliding against eachother. But instant triggering of a nuke or the same amount of conventional explosives ought to give exactly the same response on a seismograph. The only difference is radiation. But radiation doesn't make the ground to shake.
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ProdigalJunkMail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. no, the only difference is NOT radiation
the signature of an atomic blast is much different than that of conventional explosives. The thing that you are looking for is related to the efficiency of the explosion and the speed at which it occurs. Things
happen in nuclear explosions in picoseconds and nanoseconds...conventional explosions occur in microseconds...an eternity (well, a dern long time) in comparison! :-)

sP
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. of course fission and explosion are different
but not to a seismograph :

Because the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty forbids all nuclear testing, seismologists have redirected their attention toward the detection of nuclear explosions, regardless of size. This is a difficult task because each day there are hundreds of naturally occurring earthquakes and large non-nuclear industrial explosions associated, for example, with mining and building demolitions. It is generally possible, however, to distinguish earthquakes caused by explosions from naturally occurring earthquakes along faults. In comparison to naturally occurring earthquakes, earthquakes triggered by explosions are very shallow. Explosions occur in small spaces and, because an explosion causes the rock around it to dilate, produce strong compressional body waves that travel through the Earth. Earthquakes along faults, in contrast, are caused by slip distributed over large areas and tend to produce much larger surface waves that travel along Earth's surface. Each of these produces distinctly different seismograms and ratios of long- to short-period seismic waves. The size of an explosion can be estimated from the magnitude of the earthquake it produces. Current efforts are aimed at the identification of nuclear explosions in the 0.001 to 0.01 kiloton range, which produce earthquakes of magnitude 2 to 3.

One of the most significant events since the signing of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty was a series of nuclear tests conducted by India and Pakistan in May 1998. India, which was one of only three countries to oppose the treaty, conducted three nuclear tests in the northwestern part of the country. Neighboring Pakistan, which supported the treaty, but refused to sign it as long as it was opposed by India, conducted five nuclear tests in response. The tests produced earthquakes with magnitudes between 4.8 and 5.2, one of which was preceded by a naturally occurring magnitude 6.9 earthquake in Afghanistan. Seismologists have concluded that both India and Pakistan probably exaggerated the size of the tests in order to present more powerful images to each other.

The use of seismology to detect remote explosions is not limited to nuclear test monitoring. It can also be used to learn about large explosions due to other causes, especially in foreign countries or inaccessible areas. Seismologists using publicly available information, for example, were able to determine that two separate explosions occurred when the Russian submarine Kursk sank in August 2000. A small explosion was followed about two minutes later by a second explosion that released about 16 times as much energy as the first and produced a magnitude 4.2 earthquake that was recorded as far as 5000 km away. It was further determined that the energy released in the second explosion was equivalent to that which would have been released by 2000 to 4000 kg (about 2 to 4 kilotons) of TNT. The depth of the second explosion was estimated from a bubble pulse produced during the explosion, which was caused when a bubble of hot gas oscillates while rising quickly through the water. The calculated depth of 100 m is about the same as the seafloor depth at the location of the Kursk accident, so the second explosion probably occurred when the sinking submarine struck the seafloor. More than 150 earthquakes with magnitudes of 1.4 to 1.6 occurred in the months after the sinking. They were probably caused by depth charges that were detonated by the Russian navy to discourage foreign submarines from visiting the wreckage. Similar studies have shed light on incidents such as the 1995 attack on the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City; the 1998 truck-bombing of the American Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya; and the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

http://www.espionageinfo.com/Re-Se/Seismology-for-Monitoring-Explosions.html

that's why they are trying to track gases

http://www.llnl.gov/str/Carrigan.html
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casual hex Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. 700 Tons?
If you don't believe they are telling the truth about what kind of bomb test it is, why do you believe they are telling the truth about the size? In other words, you think it may be a tactical nuke, but wonder how a 700 ton nuke could be delivered.

Maybe they aren't telling the truth about the size.

It is almost certainly a "mini" nuke they are testing. What possible good could it be exploding that much conventional, uh, explosive? That sort of thing has been done so many times. What they need is new data on a test run of a mini nuke, to hone their calculations just prior to their attack on Iran.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. It's testing a tac nuke by proxy then.
The proxy is 700 tons of explosives to simulate a tactical nuke with the explosive power of 700 tons of explosives. Understand?

"This sort of thing," yes. This exact thing? I wouldn't know. And they must have a bunker to test it on.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. Our tax dollar at work.
I've finally reached psychos-in-charge overload. We need to shut down the Pentagon & start from scratch.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
11. What do we do if they are actually thinking about this?
We're kinda' screwed aren't we? I mean, maybe we could write an open letter or something to all the Republicans begging for them to get him to stop it. I just don't know. I guess we could hide.
:nuke: :hide: :nuke:
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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
14. The fact that people know about this "test" they will have
geiger counters around the site.

IMHO this test will be cancelled IF it was to be a nuclear test not just a big firecracker test.
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sheelz Donating Member (869 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
15. See this thread for more info:
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Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. Are they training for Iran strike?
Edited on Mon Apr-10-06 10:00 AM by Marie26
If so, I guess that means they won't attack until after this test, right? Maybe there's a couple months left to try to change their minds.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-10-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
20. The name Divine Strike for a weapon, makes me want to puke...
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