911 operator scolds African-American boy for "prank" as his mom dies!

[Yollam]

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/04/08/100wir_a4scold001.cfm




News Wire

Published: Saturday, April 8, 2006


Operator scolds boy trying to save mom

By David Runk
Associated Press


DETROIT - A 5-year-old boy called 911 to report that his mother had collapsed in their apartment, but an operator told him he should not be playing on the phone, and she died before help arrived.

The family of Sherrill Turner, 46, does not know whether a swifter response could have saved her life, but relatives want to know why the operator apparently treated the call as if it were a prank.

Police said the 911 response was under investigation.

Turner's son, Robert, placed two calls to 911 after his mother collapsed Feb. 20 on the kitchen floor. During one of the calls, an operator said, "You shouldn't be playing on the phone."



How awful. I wonder if they decided it was a "prank" when they heard his African-American dialect?

[shenmue]

1. The hell is wrong with the dispatcher?

Somebody died, dammit. What if it were his mom?

:grr:

Unprofessional, uncaring, soulless ass.

[bliss_eternal]

4. I believe when one calls 911

they can see the address of the caller (at least that's what friends in the field in CA told me). It's terrible if she saw the area that the call came from and immediately assumed it had to be a prank, coupled with the fact the call came from a child.

Let's hope that some serious repurcussions are in store for that dispatcher. In jobs like that, one can never make assumptions.

[H3Dakota]

173. Huh?

What you are saying is that where the child lives may have led the operator to decide that the child was making a prank call. Why would you say that? It was MY assumption that the operator thought it was a prank due to the fact that it was a child, clearly a young one, pure & simple. WRONG to do in her job, period. But I'm confused why you would think where he lived had any bearing on it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. The kid called twice

and I believe talked to two different dispatchers, and they both thought he was playing a prank.

Sure didn't sound that way to me.

[LisaL]

45. No, I think he got the same dispatcher, and she thought he was

playing a prank both times.

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Oh I hadn't realized that

Did you hear her say to put your mom on the phone? Mom was passed out!!

[LisaL]

65. And the kid clearly stated the mother was passed out.

Some things might have been ineligible, but the fact that the mother was passed out was pretty clear. Sad situation that's for sure. The mother had trained the boy to call 911 because the mother was sick with respiratory and heart problems. And the boy did call 911 but got no help.

[bliss_eternal]

2. ...or possibly because it was a child.

Not everyone that is African American has a dialect or qualities that make their voices distinct in some way.

A relative worked many years as a telephone operator. Unfortunately, many children called and played pranks, that being the days before caller id or technology that allows people to return calls to the last caller. I had a friend that worked 911--it's rare they get calls from children--so maybe this is why one may have assumed it was a prank.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. On CNN, they said this dispatcher had received several prank calls

that day from kids.

I would think they would err on the side of caution, send the cops and if it is a prank, charge the caller with a crime.

They also played the tape on CNN and the kid didn't sound like he was playing a joke to me.

[LisaL]

39. Maybe they count two calls from this boy as "several prank calls

from kids?". The fact is, they are trying to cover their ass, and that operator was completely unprofessional. And they don't even want to fire her.

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. Yeah that could be

I agree - she should lose her job. A woman died for Christ's sake.

[LisaL]

119. Sounds like she is not going anywhere. They are keeping

her. The union rep is defending her, saying at some points the tape was inaudible. So, it's the boy's fault he wasn't clear enough? How pathetic is that? I heard of dogs and cats calling 911 and help arriving. Were those tapes audible?

[Nailzberg]

3. Listening to it, I thought the dispatcher had an African-American dialect.

So I doubt that was why she thought it was a prank.

It probably has alot more to do with the training, or lack there of, that Detriot provides dispatchers with, and not racism.

[Neil Lisst]

5. I agree. The operator also sounded African American.

could be wrong, of course

[Nailzberg]

9. Right, could be wrong.

Like another poster said, you really can't tell someone's race by dialect.

[Neil Lisst]

11. while true, it's not impossible to tell, either

In this case, I'd say it's better than 50% probability the woman on the phone is African American.

[bliss_eternal]

15. Based on what?

Your comment is generalizing and blanketing african americans--that they for the most part all sound one way. Is this appropriate?

[Neil Lisst]

17. no, it's not doing any of those things

I'm using my ear, which is connected to my head, which is where I keep my memories. My ear hears and my brain records and catalogues information, which it then constantly crossreferences with my saved memories, looking for matches. When it finds one, it's says "hey, she sounds like she might be a black woman, probably 25-50 years old."

That's how it works, and everyone has one.

[bliss_eternal]

20. So I guess there's a white sound

an asian sound, a hispanic sound? Is that what you are saying?

[Neil Lisst]

25. there can be

Our memory automatically matches up what we hear with what we know, and it gives us the most likely conclusion. We would be clueless if we didn't do that. We listen automatically for clues that will help us see the person who fits the voice.

Will it always be correct? Of course not, but it's still an important tool, the one we are designed to use.

[bliss_eternal]

37. No, I don't think so.

Please describe for me what a white person sounds like and then what a black person sounds like, how it's different.

Frankly, even if you do describe it, your comments will stand as appearing bigoted, stereotyping of races as far as I'm concerned.

Unfortunate...

[Neil Lisst]

43. no thanks

I've described how the process works and why I think with a better than 50% probability the 911 operator is African American.

It's a rational approach, and the one humans most commonly rely upon when attempting to figure out such things.

I'm sure time will resolve the issue.

[bliss_eternal]

71. I'm sorry but I fail to see

the necessity for you to label any caller as African American or anything else. Apparently race is important to you, if you have to identify the ethnicity of an anonymous caller or someone on a recording on tv.

Sad that being here on DU you haven't learned more than this...

[Neil Lisst]

77. if you don't see it, then you don't see it

It is how we as human beings function. We use our minds to take in information and draw conclusions.

I hear a tape from a Detroit 911 operator. I know that Detroit is 80% African American, and I know the woman I hear sounds like she's probably African American. It's a rational conclusion, and it's relevant because an earlier poster made it relevant.

That is not racist, that is reality. Identifying a person by their ethnic hertiage when hearing them speak is not exactly a surprise method of human cognition. That is how we do it.

[bliss_eternal]

126. That is how you do it.

You choose to do this. It is not something everyone does.

[sendero]

166. Of course it is..

.. except those who are afraid they'll be labeled "racists" because they are familiar with the speech patterns that 90%+ American blacks share.

Your argument is a perfect example of "liberal" PC gone wild. Nobody would argue your side unless they are willing to put all experience and common sense aside in the futile effort to make a point.

About the only black person I know or have conversed with who doesn't have said speech patterns is my own adopted son, who was raised by white folks and never got a chance to learn them.

[TheMadMonk]

167. Dialects

Moved downthread.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

157. There are differences between the two.

Obviously, not in ALL cases, but the main differences tend to run along the lines of tone, projection and rhythm.

And it's not an age-specific or vocabulary-specific thing, either (i.e., "ebonics"). Of course, there are extreme examples on either end (Chris Rock, Woody Allen), but there usually is a noticeable diference.

[LeftyMom]

59. To some degree yes

I went to a school that was primarily southeast asian. I sounded very different from even my american born vietnamese classmates, who sounded different from kids from chinese families and of course we all sounded different from the kids of mexican descent.

For the most part the african american kids did not sound like any other group, although there was much less of an obvious distinction with some kids than with others. It's not a socioeconomic thing, for one thing african americans of both sexes tend to have deeper voices. Often they're more resonant as well. That's one easily heard distinction even when one disregards pronounciations and usage that can differ. (There are exceptions- a friend of my sister's grew up in an african american neighborhood and went to school with mostly aa classmates and teachers. She's caucasian, but her voice and mannerisms are those of african american female from a lower class neighborhood and they are definitely distinctive. Meanwhile her mother retains her oklahoma accent. It's strange to listen to them.)

[bliss_eternal]

94. Leftymom--

are you referring to all blacks or just the ones you've known?

I'd like to again, as respectfully as I can muster at this point, caution people from blanket statements of ALL regarding entire groups of people...

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Please explain why it matters what race she was

[Neil Lisst]

67. it doesn't, but if you read the thread, it's self-explanatory

A person suggested the 911 operator might have been racist, because the boy is African American, implying the operator wasn't. Someone else noted he had heard the tape and thought the operator was probably African American. I agreed, having also heard it.

Because some believe any generalization is racist, irrespective of the accuracy of the information or distinction, conflict ensued.

It's not a leap of faith. Detroit is over 80% black.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Who implied the dispatcher is racist?

Which post??

[LisaL]

79. The original post. If the dispatcher didn't send help because

the child is black, then she must be racist? And if the dispatcher herself is african american, I guess she is still racist?

[Neil Lisst]

84. thanks for noting that it really helps to read the OP and the responses

It sure makes this side discussion understandable when one reads the thread in order.

It's like having a conversation, and someone joins in the middle, and hears something they think they don't like, and then takes the thread that direction.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. A teacher I work with - who is white - was accused of being prejudiced

against white kids by a white parent. It was one of those WTF? situations. The parent even called the superintendent! We laugh about it now but at the time it was pretty strange.

[Neil Lisst]

89. the city says she'll be punished, but kept on, as a long time employee

I didn't hear anything in the tape that sounded like racism. Just a kid who was speaking in an unexcited manner, which is what might have thrown the operator off. He sounded like he was perhaps not as animated as kids might be in that circumstance.

It was a bad judgment call on her part.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. I didn't hear that, the story said it was being investigated

They never said she would keep her job. They did interview her union rep who defended her. But nothing about her being a long time employee.

[LisaL]

96. Yes, it's being investigated, but I also heard she was

going to keep her job because she is an excellent employee. If that is what their excellent employee like, what do not so excellent employees do, I wonder.
There was nothing ambiguous about that tape, IMO. The child clearly stated the mother was passed out, but she was rude and even threatened the child that he would get in trouble for calling. And that is what they think is a great employee?

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. I thought the kid did a pretty good job considering how young he is

[LisaL]

107. His mother trained him to call 911 in case of an emergency,

because she had an enlarged heart and knew something can happen to her.
The kid did his job, too bad he was not taken seriously.

[Neil Lisst]

104. yes, they did say she'd keep her job

I just read the story 30 minutes ago.

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. Got a link?

[Neil Lisst]

110. no, I do my own research, and suggest others learn how to do same.

Teach a woman how to fish ... yada yada yada.

try
detroit, 911 operator, job

[proud2BlibKansan]

125. You should know better than to make claims and NOT provide backup

Not my job to research claims YOU make.

Your comment about teaching a woman is insulting. Of course, it didn't surprise me.

[Neil Lisst]

130. If I said teach a man how to fish, you'd have complained about that

I don't know if you're a man or a woman. Does it matter?

The point is PRIMARY RESEARCH.

[proud2BlibKansan]

132. First you make racist statements now sexist ones

Yes, it DOES matter. How sad you even have to ask.

[Neil Lisst]

136. my statements are not racist or sexist, and I'm going to ask you to stop

You have been slinging insults since you jumped into the thread.

You would throw a fit no matter what I say, and find some racial or sexual offense.

[Neil Lisst]

80. try the OP

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Thanks I see it at the bottom now

Missed it first time I read it.

Still think it is a stupid commentary on this tragic story.

[Neil Lisst]

91. bottom line: I don't think race is an issue. It's Detroit.

The city is mostly black people, and one would like to believe that the 911 operators would not be racist one way or another.

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. Then why did you say this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=891830&mesg_id=891864

[Neil Lisst]

108. I said because it's true.

I believe there is a better than 50% probability the 911 operator is African American. It's a sucker bet. I've heard the operator, and I know over 80% of Detroit is African American.

Strictly a rational conclusion.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. But if it doesn't matter, why make that comment?

This story is about a CHILD whose mom died even though he tried to get her help. PERIOD. Why even feed into the racist crap in the thread by saying you agree, these people are black?

[Neil Lisst]

115. thanks for sharing

but it's time to bid you good-bye

[proud2BlibKansan]

128. But as usual, it's been such a pleasant conversation

[meowWOW]

163. And if the operator had done what you just did...

...you'd scream she was PROFILING!!!!!!!!!!!!OMIGOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THE DISPATCHER ALSO WASN'T BLACK??????????? IN DETROIT, SEEMS LIKE THERE WAS A GOOD CHANCE SHE WAS.....unless you're indicating only a whitewoman could handle a job like that..........HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM........

[Neil Lisst]

165. I don't see how you concluded that

I have concluded the 911 operator was probably black, based upon having heard the tape 4 times now, and considering that Detroit is over 80% black.

Not that it matters, other than for this side issue which some have created.

[LisaL]

48. Well, then WTF does the original poster claims the operator decided it

was a prank because the boy is black? The operator wouldn't know if he was black or white, would she now? Why not take offense with that?

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. I want to know the answer too

Are black kids more likely to make prank calls to 911?

[bliss_eternal]

92. Which is why I've commented on these comments

there's a lot of stereotyping going on that is not cool. According to the original poster, it's well known that some blacks hate their own, yet when I asked him where he gets this from, he refused to comment on that.

Maybe he just accepts his ideas as facts and doesn't expect anyone to call him on it or to want an explanantion...

[Occulus]

she probably thought it was a prank because

kids used to call 911 as a prank

oops, I made a blanket generalization :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

18. Thanks for noticing...

I appreciate it.

[Neil Lisst]

24. dupe

[bliss_eternal]

31. Wow--is that really necessary?

:shrug:

[Neil Lisst]

58. what does that mean?!

The post that was there is the same as the one just above it I made.

You act as if it had something horrific, which it didn't.

Please, stop with the drama.
---------------------------------------
This is what I had posted there:

Our memory automatically matches up what we hear with what we know, and it gives us the most likely conclusion. We would be clueless if we didn't do that. We listen automatically for clues that will help us see the person who fits the voice.

Will it always be correct? Of course not, but it's still an important tool, the one we are designed to use.

[bliss_eternal]

88. Why is this an important tool?

Quote:
but it's still an important tool, the one we are designed to use.

Why does it matter what race/ethnicity someone is?

[Neil Lisst]

97. Because it's how we sort information in our heads for use

There is nothing wrong with mentally logging traits that are found most commonly in any group we can categorize as a group. It's the entirety of human history - observing, breaking down into groups, and using the information.

As to WHY? Well, that would be found in the OP, where the issue was first raised, and the reason some of us discussed it.

[bliss_eternal]

112. No...

...we don't use or log traits found commonly found in any group. That is making an assumption based on the group, to do so is stereotyping--which is bigoted.

[Neil Lisst]

120. No ...

Your understanding of "bigotry" is mistaken. Observable differences do not make for bigotry.

[bliss_eternal]

122. The fact that you make observations of difference

based on race *IS* bigotry.

[Neil Lisst]

127. No, it *ISN'T*

It's rational human behavior.

There's absolutely nothing bigoted about it.

[bliss_eternal]

129. I've never known a bigot

that believed they were a bigot. Congratulations, you passed the test.

[Neil Lisst]

137. congratulations, you made my ignore list

[bliss_eternal]

139. Thus making it easier for me

to call you on your bigotry--with none of that pesky arguing back. Thanks!

[Yollam]

10. There are more than a few African-Americans who hate their own race...

[Neil Lisst]

13. I felt it was more a woman thinking a kid was playing with the phone.

I think she showed bad judgment, and have no reason to think race played a role.

[Yollam]

16. I'm not claiming that it did or didn't.

But I couldn't help but wonder if the result would've been the same if a white kid with "proper diction" had called...

[bliss_eternal]

75. Well you finally said it...

Bravo. :eyes: You defended the opposite, but there it is. Nice.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. Then why bring it up?

[bliss_eternal]

33. May I ask...?

if you are African American? I'm curious as to why you are making such comments, and how this would seem a viable issue to bring up in this situation?

Do you feel that some AA's hate their race based on an animation and a film? Is that what you are saying here?

[Yollam]

40. You may ask...

But I don't feel the need to answer such a stupid and insulting question.

[bliss_eternal]

44. Why is my question stupid and insulting?

Yet you made such an insinuating and presumptive comment about an entire group of people?

[Yollam]

52. First, it's in keeping with all your comments on this thread.

One would be correct in saying that there's no reason to assume that race was a factor in this tragedy. But I am no assuming that, just speculating.

You've claimed that there is no such thing as a discernible African-American dialect, when there often is.

Then you imply that one must be African-American to comment on these topics - a stupid notion.

Then you imply that I must have ulterior motives for speculating about this, and that all my attitudes are based on "Boondocks" and "Training Day", when they were clearly just widely known examples.

My comments were not about "an entire group of people", unless that group is blacks who harbor bigotry against blacks.

If anyone in this thread has an ulterior motive, I imagine it must be you since you are making arguments with the sole purpose of being contrary.

Good day to you.

[bliss_eternal]

61. Defending ignorance w/more ignorance

nice.

I asked your race, because it's obvious to me that no one that cared about African Americans could make such presumptious comments about them or their relationships to one another. I doubt you like anyone making such comments about you...

If you lack the capacity to see beyond your own opinion, perhaps you shouldn't share grand, sweeping generalizations about entire groups the way you have here. Someone is bound to comment, disagree and even call you on it, as I have.

[Neil Lisst]

100. thanks for more sound comments on the topic

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. What difference does that make?

[bliss_eternal]

42. I'm waiting for a response about this as well...

:hi:proud2Blib.

[Neil Lisst]

103. you know what would be great?

If you'd read the OP and know what the thread was about before jumping in the middle and chastising those who DID read the OP and know why the topic was broached.

Then you wouldn't need to post the same "but why?!" post ten times.

[bliss_eternal]

113. Read it...

that post, and your comments are stereotyping a group of people based on some notion you both possess about an entire group of people. I'm merely calling you on it...

[Neil Lisst]

117. thanks

as for your comments, I've sufficiently responded to them elsewhere.

we disagree.

[bliss_eternal]

7. I'm sorry but this is bothering me--

how does an african american sound exactly?

[Syrinx]

19. come on

You're telling me that when a stranger calls you, a telemarketer perhaps, you can't usually tell the difference between a white caller and a black one?

[bliss_eternal]

22. Why would I do that?

What difference does that make? Why would anyone care what race the person on the other end of the phone is? That seems a way to put people into boxes and make gross generalizations about groups of people to me.

I wouldn't want people doing that to me, why would I do that about others...? Why would you need to do such a thing?

[Syrinx]

26. honesty

I thought it was stupid when Johnnie Cochran made such a big deal about one of the witnesses in the Simpson trial that testified about hearing a "black man's voice." African-Americans and white Americans, in general, sound a little different. It's true. What's the big deal?

[bliss_eternal]

27. I'm sorry that you feel this way

but it is not true. All you are doing is perpetuating stereotypes that allow people like Johnnie Cochran to get away with using racial arguments in murder trials.

Using such gross generalizations is inappropriate for Johnnie Cochran (may he rest in peace)and it's inappropriate here. Sorry.

[Syrinx]

35. I'm not saying I can ALWAYS tell the difference

And I'm certainly not saying all AA's speak "Ebonics." But to try to pretend that whites and blacks are exactly the same in every single respect is kind of silly.

Richard Pryor and Chris Rock have poked fun at the differenct ways that blacks and whites tend to speak.

I'm not just talking about accent, but voice timbre as well. Listen to James Earl Jones for a second and try to imagine he's white!

[bliss_eternal]

41. I recall caucasian actors w/booming voices like his--

many worked in the early days of tv and radio. Go to Disneyland sometime and ride the Haunted House, not sure what the narrator's ethnicity is, but he's not James Earl Jones.

Richard Pryor and Chris Rock saying what they do, on a stage with a paying audience is quite different from the assertion you have made here. Oh and btw, they are african american--them saying it and you saying it--different.

We are on a board discussing current events and politics, right? Do you not see how your comments and theirs are different?

Apparently you missed when Chris Rock said it pisses him off that people say Colin Powell speaks so well and is so articulate--and he wonders alound what he should sound like. While it's a slightly different argument the base is the same--it's offensive to make an assumption about race. Period.

[Syrinx]

49. I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying

Nowhere have I said anything approaching "whites speak so well and so articulate, and blacks don't." I never said that.

Oh and btw, they are african american--them saying it and you saying it--different.

I beg to differ. You seem to be telling me that certain races have rights that other races don't. Hmmm.

[bliss_eternal]

57. I know that you didn't.

I acknowledged that by saying the context was slightly different.

Chris Rock and Richard Pryor you are not. We are not in a comedy club. This is not a joke board or forum, last I checked. You stated what you did as fact, it seemed.

Chris Rock spends far more time talking about his own race than anyone else's. So did Richard Pryor.

Using them to defend your argument is inappropriate--this is hardly the same context.

[Syrinx]

68. I'm not making an argument

I stated the obvious. Black people and white people, in general, sound different. That doesn't mean black people are in any way less intelligent, or more intelligent, that white people. It doesn't mean black people are better people than whites, and it doesn't mean that they are worse.

Ask a few black people that you know if they can usually tell if the stranger on the phone is white.

EDIT: This reminds of once, before DU, I was sitting up late and started watching the 700 Club. Just for fun I called the number. I was talking to the 700 Club operator, and I could tell she was black. So I started filling her in on Pat Robertson's racist past. She didn't seem offended -- by the fact I could tell she was black.

[bliss_eternal]

73. That is your belief--

that is not a fact.

I know why you believe that. Do you know why you do?

[Syrinx]

76. I believe it because I live in a reality-based community

Why do you think I believe it?

[bliss_eternal]

95. I'd like to know where your reality is--

because I don't ever want to go where it's important to know other's races...

[Syrinx]

98. when did I ever say it's important to know what someone's race is?

Quit twisting what I said!

[bliss_eternal]

105. You did

when you defended your comments. If race didn't matter to you, you wouldn't make an effort to know what someone's race is when you merely hear their voice.

[Syrinx]

109. you are being dishonest

I never said that it was important to know someone's race. Please, I respectfully ask, quit lying about what I said.

[bliss_eternal]

123. Oh--go read your own posts...

:eyes: I don't have to lie.

[bliss_eternal]

116. Because she was working---

:eyes: and she was too polite to tell you how impolite you were. You can't tell someone that is offensive to you on your job, that they are offensive. Part of her job is putting up with stuff like that, unfortunately. It's called providing good customer service.

Oh, and btw, why did you need to identify her as black? Think about that...

[Syrinx]

135. I'm getting fed up with your BS

I didn't NEED to identify her as black. It was as obvious as the large nose on my face.

[bliss_eternal]

143. The difference being you can SEE your nose.

:crazy:

[Nailzberg]

70. The first time I heard his voicewas when he voiced Darth Vader.

It was years before I discovered that voice belonged to an African American.

[Nailzberg]

21. I know it's bothersome, and I agree with you.

I cannot accurately determine a callers race over the phone.

The OP insinuated that racism played a factor here. That the dispatcher could tell the child was African American over the phone. From the portions of the tape I heard, I thought the most significant trait of the child's dialect was that he sounded like a child.

Honestly, when I assumed the dispatcher was african american based only on this happening in Detroit, which is an African American city. I cannot think of Detroit without thinking of African Americans. Before I ever heard a voice on the tape, I had already formed a mental image of an african american dispatcher, so that's what I heard, what my mind had already told me.

[bliss_eternal]

23. That's ok...

and I really appreciate your honesty. Thank you for sharing it. But frankly the op and following posts are rather offensive in the sense that they are stating races sound a certain way...I don't think that is appropriate on any board, much less a alleged progressive one.

We do have african american members here...

[wickerwoman]

36. Why is it inappropriate to acknowledge accents?

Especially when there is no value judgement placed on them. Nobody is saying "white" English is correct and "black" English is incorrect or that white people sound smart and black people sound stupid. THAT would be racist.

I've been an English teacher for about eight years and I've heard pretty much every variation possible. There *is* a hispanic accent, an Asian accent, an African accent and even an African American accent. That absolutely does not mean that everyone from those backgrounds uses it, but to say there is no such thing as an "hispanic sounding voice" is demonstrably false.

Races don't sound a certain way, but people from a particular regional + racial background *can* sound the same way. I don't think it's racist in the slightest to say I can tell someone is Chinese, or Russian or Puerto Rican on the telephone. It just means they have a slight accent. Ditto African Americans from certain regions.

[Yollam]

47. Oh come now...

We all know there is no such thing as African-American dialect or accents. It's all a racist myth made up by the far right, or the far left, or whatever. No such thing as a southern drawl, country twang or a waspy, effete way of speaking either.

Nobody can ever tell whether the person on the other end of the phone line is black, Indian, German, or whatever without a hi-def videophone, and even then, DNA tests are in order!

:eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

51. I find this rude and condescending...

sorry--but I do.

You know exactly what we are talking about. You choose not to see that you are making gross generalizations and that it is inappropriate. But don't try to rip everyone else a new one because of your own ignorance.

[Yollam]

54. It is indeed condescending.

Because you are making inane comments. Ignorance of what, pray tell? Please enlighten all of those of us who have swallowed the big lie that there are dialects in America.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. What difference does it make what color any of these people were?

That's what I don't get. Yes, the kid is black. Yes, it sounds like the dispatcher is black too.

SO??

Does that change this tragedy in any way? This woman is still dead. Would she be alive if any of the parties involved weren't black?

How did race get into this conversation?

[bliss_eternal]

50. Accents aren't what I'm talking about--

accents are based on where a person lives, not on their ethnicity. When they attempt to speak a language that is not their native tongue, their accent becomes apparent.

I'm sorry but that is not about race or ethnicity. At least not in the context that those posted above about.

People here are stating there is a tone to various races speaking voices--that is incorrect and a generalization that is damaging to racial equality.

I appreciate your comments, though.

[Syrinx]

74. "accents are based on where a person lives, not on their ethnicity"

You're telling me white people from Alabama and black people from Alabama have the exact same accent?

[bliss_eternal]

78. To someone that doesn't interpret based on race...

yes.

The fact that you see otherwise, speaks volumes about you. Careful, your ignorance is seeping out there...

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

102. I don't wonder about people's races. Period.

Just not something I do. Maybe that is why I can say what I have. I believe race isn't relevant and that's how I live my life.

It seems awfully important to you to defend offensive statements and behaviour as if you've said anything here that is based in fact. You've shared your "opinions." Where you got these opinions or ideas I don't know. But I take issue with them being shared in a community that I care a great deal about, that has members of many different ethicities and differences.

If you are so offended by my comments, take responsibility for what you've said and own how offensive someone may see them. Otherwise...oh well. Live with it. I stand by what I said.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bliss_eternal]

124. The fact you do it at all

speaks volumes.

[Syrinx]

131. you don't visualize people on the phone?

Or on the radio? When you hear DJ's on the radio, you don't automatically conjure up a picture in your mind of what they might look like? I always have. Maybe that's just me then. But I don't see what is wrong with it.

You are the one here that seems to think that "sounding black" is bad. Why do you think "sounding black" is bad?

[bliss_eternal]

134. No I don't do that.

I think I already said that.

What is bad, in my humble opinion, is the assertion that there is such a thing as sounding black. Simple as that.

[Syrinx]

140. come along with me in the real world will you?

I bet a lot of African-Americans would tell you that they are proud to "sound black."

"Different" doesn't mean "inferior."

You seem to be caught up in a lot of "politically-correct" nonsense that has exactly nothing to do with the real world.

In other words, "Let's keep it real, sister!"

[bliss_eternal]

141. ...and you probably have some African American friends

that have shared this with you, right? :eyes: Again, you are making assumptions you obviously aren't in a position to make, and now making yourself sound rather ridiculous in the process.

[Syrinx]

145. you have SOME nerve!

I think you are the one that sounds ridiculous.

I in fact do have African-American friends. And my best friend all through high school was a black guy named Greg. And he, I think, would tell you to your face that you are making a mockery of the fight for equal rights by denying something that is so obvious, and ultimately meaningless. But if that is your mission, go for it. :eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

149. Are you one that is personally affected by the fight for equal rights?

Are you a woman, gay, of color?

If not, I hardly think you are in a position to tell me what I'm doing is inappropriate considering all you've said here tonight.

[Syrinx]

153. yes

I am personally affected by the fight for equal rights.

I happen to be a straight white male.

But I have friends who are women. I have friends who are gay. I have friends of several colors, including white and black.

I find your pig-headed insistence to ignore reality to be a major obstacle to make society more just for everyone.

What exactly did I say that you found wrong or objectionable?

[bliss_eternal]

155. I told you..

and you chose to ignore it. That is your choice.

It is wrong and objectionable to assume anything about another person based on race. Period. Why is that so damned hard for YOU to understand.

And forgive me, but if you haven't walked around in female skin, or gay skin or black or brown skin, you may be able to empathize to a degree but based on your comments here, you don't understand. You just don't. And obviously there's not a damned thing I can say here that's going to make you understand.

[Syrinx]

158. you aren't being logical or kind

All I said is black and white people don't sound exactly the same.

Now, I'm the racist, sexist, homophobe down the scary street.

Pardon me for saying it, but I think I understand this big, bad world far better than you ever will.

And you are never going to make any headway on the issues that matter as long as you pick fights as silly as this.

I have no problem with any race. Not any race whatsover.

But I do detest "guilty white liberals" that fog up the screen of justice with this continuous mist of false and downright silly and invented accusations.

[bliss_eternal]

161. Fine,

You're right. I'm wrong. I'm tired of all of this...

Be right--be happy that you're right and I'm wrong...I don't care anymore.

[Syrinx]

148. you didn't answer my question

Why is "sounding black" bad?

[bliss_eternal]

151. If there was such a thing as sounding black

I might be inclined to answer your question.

[tritsofme]

169. Do you deny the existance of African American Vernacular English?

You can find some information on it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

Its really no different than hearing a British person on the phone and imagining you are talking to a stereotypical Brit.

I've been reading this discussion, and it really is amazing to me that you insist that one is racist if they can reasonably infer in the course of conversation the race or ethnicity of an individual based on how their voice sounds.

[enigmatic]

138. people do that to me all the time

Because I'm on the radio; it's never bothered me, and I certainly wouldn't call them a bigot because of it; it would never enter my mind, frankly.

[Syrinx]

142. thanks

I think you are backing me up. If not, thanks anyway. :)

[enigmatic]

146. I am

It's natural; I've gotten it all my life whether on the radio or when on record when I was a musician. Despite what others have claimed, I don't know anybody who doesn't do it, whether it's trying to figure out the gender, ethnicity, or region they are from.

It's natural curiosity; it's human.

[Syrinx]

150. thanks mystery man!

I mean it.

This bliss person is trying to make me a racist. And I'm really pretty sure I'm not. ;)

[wickerwoman]

144. Except that's not what they're saying.

Noone is saying there's a "tone to various races speaking voice". What they are saying is that they can tell when someone on a phone is African American, if that person uses a particular accent. It isn't 100% effective, obviously, but if someone has a strong African-American accent one can often guess his or her race.

How is it damaging to racial equality to say you can tell someone's race on the phone? I think accents are beautiful. I remember being horrified at flyers posted on telephone poles in Chinatown promising lessons to get rid of your accent. What's damaging to racial equality is saying everyone has to sound the same (or pretending they do- which is the next worse thing.)

[enigmatic]

147. that makes me sad, too

I love hearing different dialects and accents; part of the whole globalism that's not so good is that they are dying out because of the homogenization of culture, and that's a shame.

[bliss_eternal]

152. I responded to you personally

(in pm) as one that thought we were friends from the lounge at one time. If you would like clarification as to why I feel the way I do, I'd be happy to provide it.

[bliss_eternal]

154. It is damaging in the context they used it.

It is damaging because it reinforces stereotypes. Have you READ this entire thread? There are some incredibly nasty, presumptious, stereotypical comments about races made here. Maybe you need to be a person of color to see it such a context, but it is.

That is why.

[wickerwoman]

156. Yes, I've read the entire thread.

And I haven't seen any of the comments you've mentioned. Here's my summary:

1.) The OP suggests the the dispatcher perhaps didn't take the boy seriously because he sounded black. (Presumably, expressing outrage at how black people are generally treated by the police.)

2.) Another poster suggested that the dispatcher was probably also black and hence, racism probably wasn't the reason she didn't take him seriously.

Cue eruption of accusations of racism.

I fail to see where anyone has said anything bad about black people- in fact, I think the OP was being a little hyper-vigilant about racism.

Unless you think saying someone has an accent is racist, in which case, I ask you for the third time how it it racist to say someone has an accent if you don't place any value judgment on that accent. Recognizing an accent isn't racist. It's what you do with the information afterwards. Noticing someone sounds African (or Chinese, or Russian, or Irish)-American is just taking in information. Going from that to "he sounds stupid, or uneducated" or "I'm not going to hire him" *is* racist. Where has anyone in this thread taken that second step? Please include a quotation and post number.

[bliss_eternal]

160. You know what?

I'm tired of having to prove to DU'ers what bigotry looks like. Ok? I'm tired of being a person of color, and seeing incredibly offensive things said and calling people on it, and have to prove that it's offensive. Is that clear to you and others here? If not, frankly I don't care anymore.

I'm tired of seeing the gay community call foul about things and have to PROVE that their points of worthy of calling it homophobia.

I'm tired of women seeing misogynistic bullshit posted and calling people on it, only to be told they have to PROVE it's homophobia.

Well, guess what? If THIS is what progressive is--if this is what it looks like, I've had my fill.

Do any of you people know that there are members of this board that are of color that don't even want to invite their friends of color here? Wonder why? Because of stuff like this. You people can't take anyone at their word, or just trust that what you say or do is hurtful. Fine. Whatever.

It's not enough for anyone on these boards to gently attempt to ask someone else why they need to make something about race. No. People have to get ugly, trade unpleasantries, etc. Then you still need proof. Whatever...When I tried to ask why it had to be about race, when I tried, NICELY to call people on making generalizations and stated that such isn't necessary and could be deemed offensive and why, it wasn't enough. Fine, whatever, I don't care anymore.

I'm tired. I'm leaving. Bye.

[wickerwoman]

164. Look, I understand your frustration

as a frequenter of the "please stop calling women bitches" threads. But the thing is- people get defensive when you call them racist or sexist or homophobic and if you're not willing to step up with quotes and an explanation (which I have yet to see you do on this thread) then it's not surprising that people don't get it.

You're calling people racist simply because they say they can tell something about other people's race from their accent. That's it. No value judgement, no accusations- simply that I can tell where you come from from how you sound. Period. Now please explain how that is racist. I honestly don't get it and I never will if you don't explain it.

I sympathize with the frustration of trying to make slow-inroads into the genuine racism, sexism and homophobia in this country (and on DU), but I honestly believe you are *way* off the mark here and storming off without an explanation isn't giving your argument any credibility.

[fudge stripe cookays]

168. You didn't NICELY do anything.

You jumped in like a bull in a china shop and began screaming RACISM right and left.

I have worked around TONS of my black brothers and sisters in my life, and often I was the minority in the workplace. I have worked hard to overcome a history of prejudice in my family and I embrace my friends no matter what color, religion, sexual orientation, or other minority they may be.

We are not saying EVERY black person has the accent. But there is a black dialect that exists. Not everyone has it. But denying it exists is really naive. Just because I notice someone is probably black from their accent does not make me a racist.

I love accents, and always try to peg where someone is from: Canada, Texas, Maryland, Wisconsin---and I usually get pretty close.

You're a reactionary, being really unpleasant here. If you want to go, I'm sure there are plenty of us who would consider it a blessing.

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hekate]

121. I thought the same thing, actually. Regardless, it's terrible.

My heart goes out to that child.

Hekate

[Bozita]

6. Good news: Feiger's got it -- Bad news: Engler courts have final word

[wtmusic]

8. In Los Angeles he would have gotten a busy signal

There are some places you just don't even try 911.

[Mythsaje]

12. I feel so bad for the kid...

He did the right thing and it didn't turn out the way it should.

[pinniped]

14. I heard the audio clips on the local newz.

They said the dispatcher could be disciplined but likely won't be fired.

I guess good help is hard to find.

[CakeGrrl]

28. Fire the 911 operator

Thanks to caricatures in TV and movies, such as the airport security screeners in the movie "Soul Plane", the 'black voice' has been "typed" - not that it's representative by any means. I'm black and sound nothing like that. I was once described as having a 'newscaster' voice.

That aside, this 911 operator does not deserve to continue drawing a paycheck in my opinion. The poor little boy did exactly what he needed to do to try and help his mother, and THIS is what he gets? I hope the family sues that idiot on principle. There's no excuse for that type of dismissal. Why do we bother trying to educate kids about what to do in an emergency if they're going to be ignored?

[pinniped]

114. They are being represented by Geoffrey Fieger, Jack Kevorkian's....

former attorney.

[Oversea Visitor]

32. Lets not jump

Kid only 5 years old
Damn tough to get facts right from one so small.
Facts is help did come
Gee you all think talking to 5 years high stress up kiddies easy.

[LisaL]

38. What on freaking Earth are you talking about?

They got the kid on tape. He called twice, three hours apart, and there was no help. By the time police finally arrived, which was hours later, the mother was already dead.

[Oversea Visitor]

53. Good

Then at least all can listen to tape and decide.
Grrrr just hate the blind guilty as charge mentality
Dont think anyone want this to happen
Damn sad it did
But hey
Lets not destroy someone life indiscrimately and blindly
Job required judgement to vet out pranks calls
Cant go chasing all over with so little resources
So bad judgement here maybe
But fact is tape will tell just how bad.

[LisaL]

69. Oh dear lord. 911 operators should not judge which calls are

pranks and which are not. The fact is, even hung up 911 calls get the police dispatched.
We had police arriving when we dialed a wrong number, and they would still show up even when no words were ever spoken. Operators do not decide they think this one is a prank.

[Oversea Visitor]

82. Ok

but hung up or no words spoken call is a given
Must investigate

Maybe you have not hear of dispatcher giving wrong info and when police arrive
BANG BANG Officers down
Job aint easy
They need to make judgement call please
Life and dead everytime

This case sad
Dispatcher think kid doing a prank
Does it means dispatcher evil
Everyone make mistake
So ok if they make mistake someone dies
Easy job huh?

[Nailzberg]

133. There's a difference between making a mistake, and not performing your job

In a mistake, the person attempts to do their job. Ignoring your duties is not a mistake, it's negligence.

I'm giving you my opinion, but I have credentials to base my opinion on. I worked for an alarm company in college and monitored security and alarm room of a Fortune 500 International Headquarters serving 10,000 employees. At the time I was certified in Emergency Medical Dispatch, Private alarm, detection, and security. I no longer needed the job after college, so I allowed my certs to expire four years ago. After college, I spent several years covering breaking news as an ENG photojournalist, in which I was generally monitoring and responding to emergency calls all night long. You hear dozens of calls per night were the police or ambulance respond to a false alarm, but the point is they have to go there first to determine that.

I come from a public service family that includes in my immediate family alone a firefighter, a dispatcher, and a federal agent. I've gone on police and paramedic ridealongs, sat in dispatch centers, and monitored live calls. I've interviewed dispatchers and fire officials numerous times. So I'm not just some rube jumping to conclusions.

Is dispatching a difficult job? Yes. But this dispatcher never attempts to determine if there was a medical emergency. She asks to speak to the boy's mother, and he tells her she can't speak. You don't need to be EMD certified to immediately see a red flag in the child's response. But the dispatcher doesn't attempt a follow-up question. "Why can't mommy come to the phone?" or "Where is mommy?"
That's not a mistake. That is failure to perform your duties.

EMD is a plan of attack for a dispatcher, a system of organizing your questions to determine the nature of a medical emergency. IF this system is not in place in Detroit, than the city should be held negligent. But this dispatch was a no-brainer with or without EMD.

Whether or not the dispatcher is guilty will come down to whether or not the agency's guidelines were followed, but this lawsuit has a lot of merit. You don't even need a Jeffrey Fieger on this one, some personal injury lawyer advertising on daytime television would get a settlement out of this.

[Nailzberg]

46. You're wrong, help didn't come.

The child had to call back three hours later.

5 years old is too young to understand that he should have called back immediately. But he never should have had to call back.

And talking to a 5 year old should be easy. I heard the tape, the child was calm.

I'm going to go out on a limb and make an assumption here. I'm going to assume that the City of Detroit lacks the funds to certify their dispatchers as EMDs.

Emergency Medical Dispatch simplifies triage over the phone, and allows the dispatcher to determine the probable medical emergency quickly and relay that information to responding units. It also allows the dispatcher to provide because first aid instructions to the caller.

And if EMD had been used here, there would have been no doubt that this was a medical emergency.

[Oversea Visitor]

64. Yup a dispatchers job aint easy

Too much pranks call
People forget about how many times they do right call and save lifes
One wrong move and KABOOOOM
Sick job
Everyday all this disaster happening
Maybe if child going batshit crazy dispatcher maybe respond better.
Sorry me cant judge cant hear tape.

But fact is if everytime someone die after calling 911 and dispatcher get fired
There is going to be no dispatcher left

[Nailzberg]

81. You are missing the point entirely. People can die after calling 911.

But not for a lack of response. A dispatcher's job is to determine the nature of the emergency and to roll the proper apparatus for the call. I heard the tape. I also know A LOT about emergency dispatch. This dispatcher did not do her job.

[Oversea Visitor]

86. Then I guess guilty

OK so now what

[sandnsea]

66. 911 calls are ALWAYS answered here

Everyplace I've ever lived as a matter of fact. It's domestic violence laws. They cannot go unanswered.

And might I suggest to African Americans, instead of getting in a tizz about whether people can sometimes or usually identify an African American voice, a better use of your time would be to find out why 911 calls are treated differently in black cities and white rural towns.

[Connie_Corleone]

176. I don't know who is African American on this particular thread.

To make a blanket statement to African Americans on this board about "getting into a tizz" about something is ridiculous. Most African Americans on this board, including myself haven't mentioned one word about identifying black people by voice on this thread.

And I'll use my time anyway I want to thank you very much.

[RagingInMiami]

83. Sounds like it

[B Calm]

159. Dispatcher should be FIRED!

[meowWOW]

162. What?

I think your own ....lack of experience is showing. How did this operator 'know' he was speaking in an African-American dialect? How did YOU know he WAS? How do you know the operator is not his or herself African American? And, if it had been attributed to that, wouldn't everyone now be hollering that the operator was 'profiling'?

[matcom]

170. my little (WHITE) sister called 911 when we were kids

she was maybe 5 or 6 at the time. dialed 911 and didn't say anything. just dialed and sat there.

we had cops on our doorstep within 20 minutes to make sure everything was ok.

of course we were white and lived in a middle class neighborhood. too bad the boy didn't call from a better address :sarcasm:

[Vinca]

171. As a person who used to be in law enforcement, first as a dispatcher

and later as a cop, someone should respond to calls such as this even if it's suspected the call is a prank. The reasons are obvious. The dispatcher was negligent and I'm sure the little kid has lawyers lined up down the block waiting to sue. The dispatcher should be fired, the policy should be changed immediately and the family should be compensated in a large way, even if it can't bring back Mom. It's a horrible, tragic story.

[Behind the Aegis]

174. I just have to ask....

Why is the title of your post, "911 operator scolds African-American boy for "prank" as his mom dies!" and the title of the article is "Operator scolds boy trying to save mom?"

BTW...what is an "African-American dialect?"

[matt819]

175. Listen to the audio

The kid sounds like a kid. Not black, not white, not Asian. Just a worried kid. Then listen to the kid in the interview. This is one impressive little boy.

What a crime.

[Midlodemocrat]

177. Locking

There are so many alerts on this thread, I already have a headache and I just woke up.

Thank you.

DU Moderator.