Enemies foreign and domestic. Thoughts on Tim McVeigh.

[flamin lib]

Anybody here remember Tim McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing? Or the Waco Branch Davidian debacle? How about the Republic of Texas, a bunch of nuts who declared their ranch a separate nation? Then there was Ruby Ridge and the Weaver family stand off the ended with a shoot out.

What do they all have in common? Right or wrong these people didn't trust their own government. They all thought the Federal Government was intruding into their lives, that it wasn't paying attention to the Bill of Rights that is supposed to protect us, the citizens, from the powers of the Police state. These people were nurtured by groups like the Christian Identity Movement, a far right neo libertarian group that foments paranoia about an all powerful central government controlling our lives.

Since these incidents some things have happened that bear thought.

In 2000 during the Presidential Campaign a new phrase was coined; “Free Speech Zone.” People wishing to express opinion different from George Bush were banned from event routes and relegated to small fenced areas far from campaign events. Fenced areas. Chain link pens. Surrounded by local, state and federal police. Once Bush was installed everyone attending a Presidential event was forced to sign a “loyalty oath” before getting access to the town hall meeting. All questions were screened and only select people within the event were allowed to speak. Should anyone arrive with a dissenting bumper sticker they were banned from the event even though they had tickets. If anyone went so far as to wear a dissenting T-shirt they were arrested, held overnight and released without charge.

In October 2001 the 342 page Patriot act was passed making changes to 15 statutes. Among other things it gave Federal investigators access to library reading lists, video rentals and your home without your knowledge or consent.

Since the War in Afghanistan the President can declare anyone, foreign or domestic, an Enemy Combatant. American citizens have been arrested on US soil and held for years without charges or legal representation. International law and protocols of the Geneva Conventions have been abrogated and prisoners tortured and beaten to death.

Earlier this year it was revealed that the Bush Administration was wiretapping US citizens inside the U.S. without a warrant. Attorney General Gonzalez has testified before Congress that such Presidential powers may extend to physical searches as well. Asked if the President could order assassinations on US soil, Gonzalez desembled saying that perhaps a case could be made to support that. At least one attorney representing a “terrorism” suspect believes his office and home has been searched. His FOIA requests have been denied.

A few months ago it was revealed that AOL and Yahoo gave information containing all terms used in their search engines over to the FBI without their user’s consent or knowledge.

Last week it was alleged in a law suit that AT&T routed all Internet and data streams as well as digital voice through the NSA’s computers. All of it. Domestic and foreign. International and local. No warrants.

Before any of this happened Tim McVeigh was moved to park a 5,000 pound bomb in front of a day care center because he believed the Federal Government couldn't be trusted. In the name of fighting foreign enemies the Bush Administration has made the paranoid muttering of home grown terrorists a reality.

Feeling any safer?

[BlackHeart]

1. Are you suggesting that...

... a left wing wacko will do what McVeigh did? (yes there are left wing wackos)

McVeigh was a right wing wacko responding to what he thought the Democrats were doing to the country.
If a left wing wacko responded similarly to what the Repubs are doing now it wouldn't be pretty.

[VelmaD]

2. I Wonder if the right-wing wackos you mentioned...

even see the irony that what they were screaming about back then has actually been implemented by "their side".

[lvx35]

3. Tim McVeigh

I think with McVeigh you really have to look at Waco. Its one of those down the rabbit hole coverups you see Bush do all the time. I remember seeing pictures of the children burned to death, then seeing them alive. White and black children, etc. Then time comes up with a story after the fact claiming that all the children in the compound were David Koresh's, when the children in the photo were clearly not, and on and on. The OKC tragedy was caused by McVeigh and group seeing through the coverup, feeling alone, thinking they had to act. I think preventing that kind of tragedy in the future entails sharing the information, and blowing these coverups wide open. You don't need to act like a lone soldier when the majority is on your side.

[Jose Diablo]

5. I think Bu$h the Elder set-up that Waco confrontation before he left

Sort of a going away gift to Clinton to smear Clinton and Reno.

What really bothers me about that Koresh thing, was how they used a army tank to jitterbug over the tunnel to that buried church bus, to crush those people. Thats a Vietnam technique,jitterbugging with a tank to collapse a tunnel, it's a military technique, not a police technique.

The military objectives are to use overwhelming force to achive the objective, including killing. The police objective is to subdue, short of death if possible to maintain the peace.

I think Bu$h the Elder set-up that whole deal in Waco, and thus killed those people. Those ATF people could have captured Koresh anytime. The guy went out jogging everyday. Why try a confrontation at his compound, unless those AFT guys wanted a confrontation, just like at Wounded Knee.

Assholes.

[lvx35]

6. I think you are right on.

Totally. You have to look at the big trend, which is the deployment of military forces against the domestic population rather than police. You see this again and again with Bush: You've got military captures without trials, you've got homeland security with actual spying replacing FBI, you've got blackwater troups running around New Orleans after the flood, you've got Rumsfeld's plan for pentagon intelligence gathering on americans. The deployment of military troops at Waco rather than normal police action is way more in line with Bush's policies than anything Clinton ever did.

[flamin lib]

4. Reply to Black & IVX . . .

These groups aren't really right or left, they are libertarian. I'll buy that Waco and Ruby Ridge were colossal cluster fucks--not at issue here.

My point is that if they had paranoid tendencies before that lead to violence against the government with civilians in between how are they going to react to what's happening now?

[lvx35]

7. I hear you, and its a good point.

What I'm pointing out is how useful open dialog about these problems is to preventing these dangerous people from doing bad stuff. When people see the scandals and realize that they are not alone in their perceptions, then they can have hope and believe in the populace, then it can help ward off the insanity that makes them violent, at least that is my belief: Silence = Violence.