Anyone watching Lou Dobbs? Shocking statistics on wages

[nonconformist]

Most notably, that construction wages are down 1 penny per hour from where they were in 1965! Wow.

Edit for specifics (yay for DVR's!)

ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION:

Wages in high tech fields 2000 to 2005 -

Computer engineering = down 13.7%
Electrical engineering = down 9.4%
Computer Science = down 6.6%

And jobs are being specifically listed for ONLY H1-B workers, even go so far as to require where they want the applicant to come from, like North India.

Construction wages, inflation adjusted in 1982 dollars, compared in constant dollars -

1965 hourly wage - $9.88
2005 hourly wage - $9.87

[Child_Of_Isis]

1. Did you fill out an application for lettuce picker?

He had that on also.

http://www.projectusa.org/

[nonconformist]

6. I saw that, lol. nt

[swag]

2. Real or nominal?

[nonconformist]

5. OP edited with specifics. nt

[swag]

12. Thank you very much.

That sucks pretty bad.

[Brigid]

3. Watching . . .

I saw that too. And some say that the presence of illegal aliens in this country doesn't depress wages. :banghead:

[Pastiche423]

4. The Congress depresses wages

[nonconformist]

7. Which is what Lou says, he's hammering on lobbyists nt

[DBoon]

8. Capitalism depresses wages

unless there is political and economic pressure otherwise

The main source of that pressure is organized labor, which has been gutted since Reagan became president


free markets benefit those who own the market

[nonconformist]

26. Yep, downfall of the middle class began with Reagan

And America is so weak now, it's in a free fall.

[RagingInMiami]

9. It's those damn Mexican computer geeks that are oversaturating the market

Computer engineering = down 13.7%
Electrical engineering = down 9.4%
Computer Science = down 6.6%

[nonconformist]

10. Straw man

The OP specifically states that companies are listing jobs for only H1-B workers, and requiring that they be from certain areas like North India.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

11. You have got to hand it to them...

While people worry and wail about the Mexicans taking their toilet-cleaning jobs away from them, the good jobs are all flying away to India. Great job, guys!

[nonconformist]

14. I don't know, my husband used to have a good job in construction. nt

[QC]

32. Yeah, but around here, blue-collar work = scrubbing toilets.

Many here find it impossible to imagine that there was ever such a thing as blue-collar jobs that paid well--like construction once did.

[nonconformist]

34. True.

My grandfather supported a family of 8 on a janitor's salary - and while we never did have a lot of money, it more than put food on the table and clothes on backs and provided for everyone's needs and many wants. And this was until the early 80's!

[QC]

45. Yep, generations were raised on blue-collar work.

What a shocking concept.

Check out yesterday's income poll for a good clue as to why working-class life is such a mystery to most of DU.

[Kurovski]

16. Illegal aliens don't depress wages, the companies that won't pay

proper wages, and exploit people for the purpose of cheap labor, do.

Illegal aliens have no power whatsoever to control wages. Zip. Zilch. Corporations and Congress are the powers which must be held to task, and furthermore must be responsible and not disrupt the lives, nor damage the families whom they've exploited for decades.

Their wealth from such labor now requires they be responsible and find humane and decent ways to rectify whatever damage they have wrought upon the economy.

[B Calm]

42. We are all slaves, one way or another..

[Ksec]

13. Globalization has alot to do with this

We were the top dog and now we get punished for our extravagant lifestyles. We have to pause twenty years to let the World catch up..

[Robbien]

15. Globalization is only 7-10 years old. Wages lost ground for 40 years

Ian Walsh has a good article and graphs on this and the underlying causes

http://www.bopnews.com/archives/006066.html#6066

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

50. Globalization has everything to do with the loss of good jobs

First it was manufacturing jobs, now it is engineering and IT.

BTW, globalization is basically corporatization, with multi-nationals exloiting lack of worker protections where ever they can.

[Idioteque]

68. So you suggest that instead of competing with other countries...

...we raise tariffs and pretend that competition doesn't exist?

Globalization makes the economy more effecient. That means some wages will decrease. The overall benefits, however, outweigh the costs.

[nonconformist]

69. Overall benefits for whom? nt

[Idioteque]

70. Globalization lowers the cost of goods and services...

...making them more available to the people that need them. We shouldn't be using barriers to stop the sale of goods and services accross borders.

That being said, it's a double edged sword. While opening our markets to other countries is good for both parties, our dumping of subsidised agriculture is very bad for the farmers in those countries. If the folks in Washington want to support free trade, that includes not distoring the cost of agriculture.

[Robbien]

79. Globalization is only good for owners/investors. The middleclass is

taking it in the shorts.

The middle class has to give up $80/hour jobs for $10/hour jobs, meanwhile it has to pay extra for heating, utilities, mortgage/rent, local/state taxes, etc.

Stockholders and corporate owners are taking in 40% returns.

But hey, toothpaste for a buck fifty at your local box store. Be happy!

[lovuian]

17. Yep thats exactly what has been happening and so the worker

now has it WORST than 1965... Its horrible!!!

[nonconformist]

18. Howard Dean on CNN just said that under this administration

Over the past 5 years the average income of the average American, adjusted for inflation, has gone down $2300.

[Elwood P Dowd]

20. Plus the average American worker now owes an extra $30,000

due to Bush's massive budget and current account deficits. It will have to be paid back one way or the other. Communist China owns close to a trillion of this debt. Saudi Arabia and Japan also own large chunks.

Bush has run up over 4 trillion in the twin deficits. The two now stand at over 1.2 trillion total per year and rising.

4-5 trillion in added debt divided by 140 million workers = DISASTER!!

[nonconformist]

21. "the economy is strong! we're creating jobs!"

:puke:

[Elwood P Dowd]

23. Yes, until recently job creation was negative in the private sector

Plus Bush's Labor Dept had to lie and cook the books just to meet the 2 million a year required to keep up with population growth.

Hey, we forgot "robust" - the economy "robust" sez Bushit.

[bdot]

28. Mine's dropped $16K a year without possiblity of raises.

[nonconformist]

19. Pathetic kick for workers and labor.

:kick:

[Cobalt Violet]

22. That's just sick.

Just how far is this going to go?

[nonconformist]

25. Much, much farther, I fear.

Especially when so few seem concerned.

[sadiesworld]

31. Many people are deeply concerned.

They just don't see an answer with either party and, for the most part, don't post on sites such as DU.

[nonconformist]

33. I think you are probably right

There is definitely a feeling of hopelessness that surrounds this entire issue.

[hopeisaplace]

24. That is absolutely outrageous!!

[B Calm]

27. I keep telling my cheap labor republican boss I was making

these wages in 1986. I brought him in an old union contract book to show him the wages I was making in 1986 to prove my point.

[nonconformist]

29. Wow. If you don't mind me asking, what line of work are you in? nt

[B Calm]

35. Back then I was a fork lift driver. Now I drive an 18 wheel truck

locally.

[nonconformist]

36. I hear that. My husband used to drive loaders and rock trucks. nt

[CrazyForKucinich]

30. And what was his response?

[B Calm]

37. Same thing he has said for the past two years, he's working on our

wages... (keeping them low)

[Roland99]

38. Are there any links to these stats?

[nonconformist]

39. I looked on the Lou Dobbs page

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/13/ldt.01.html

It's in the transcripts, and I didn't permanently record the segment, but I took those figures from the screenshots of the studies shown.

From the transcript:

DOBBS: The abundance of cheap foreign labor in this country right now is pushing wages lower for millions of middle class working Americans. Despite President Bush's insistence that our economy is robust, wages for highly-skilled middle class workers are falling across the country as the White House, big business and assorted special interests pursue cheap labor agendas.

Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The stories are many, willing employers in need of willing employees. But if labor is tight, shouldn't wages rise? They're not.

A recently completed technical study, in fact, found just the opposite in high-tech fields. Starting salaries adjusted for inflation of computer engineers with masters led the fall, down 14 percent over the last five years. Electrical engineers and computer scientists fared only slightly better.

JOHN MIANO, PROGRAMMERS GUILD: We have a huge influx of low-wage workers coming into the technology fields which are holding back wages and which are causing employment problems for U.S. workers.

TUCKER: The impact goes beyond wages. On online job sites, employers are very direct in specifying that they have jobs only for H1-B workers, going so far in some cases as to require that they be from a specific location.

If misery loves company, the engineers need look no further than the construction industry. Overall, construction wages last year were actually one penny lower than hourly wages in 1965, when the wages are compared using constant dollars. It was a finding that surprised even the researcher.

ALAN TONELSON, U.S. BUSINESS & INDUSTRY COUNCIL: I was struck by the fact that after this enormous housing boom that we've had, certainly since the late 1990s, that wages in the -- in the construction industry, which, as we keep hearing is a major user of illegal immigrants, are no higher than they were 40 years ago.

TUCKER: A study done last year by the University of North Carolina found that the use of illegal aliens in the construction industry cut labor costs by a billion dollars in 2004. And wages in the hospitality industry have been similarly flat during the last five years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[Roland99]

41. Was there a footnote on-screen mentioning the name of the study?

[nonconformist]

43. There was, but I unfortunately didn't make note of it. nt

[Roland99]

44. I'm sure it'll surface somewhere.

Thanks for the info, though!

[populistdriven]

40. During Clinton my salary nearly doubled, since then I have lost 25%

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

51. Sounds like my story.

nm

[Ganja Ninja]

52. Same here, I not only had wage increases during Clinton but ...

I also got health insurance and dental coverage that I didn't have before. Since he left office my health insurance costs more and covers less with larger co-pays and my dental coverage has been canceled. I also haven't had a raise in the last 6 years.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

46. Not immigration. Not inflation. the real culprit is fear. Induced fear.

Outsourcing and a thoroughly disorganized labor movement has led to corporate power the likes of which we last saw at the turn of the century. Not the last century. The one before.

Today's workers feel little connection with our dying labor movement. Partly, that was the fault of some labor leaders, a litany of problems and mistakes which we can get into elsewhere. Mainly, though, big corporations changed the way they do business. It was slow at first, but now is the norm. One brilliant step was to change the perception of the worker. Today's corporations survive and thrive by deliberately inducing fear.

Fear is one hell of a motivator. I noticed this 20-25 yrs ago. When I worked my way through school, I began to notice how the top bosses would come through and create rumors of entire divisions closing - to push for harder work and to scare those who would manage to keep their jobs. Hey, if you got two kids, a mortgage and a sick spouse with a medical condition, fear is a huge motivator.

There are other factors.
With a handful of exceptions, (Apple, 3-M, GE, and a very few others) true longterm planning was dropped in favor of meeting shareholder earnings estimates. Middle term planning was altered and soon dedicated to cutting costs and expenses. Short term planning was dedicated to increased sales, at all costs. One of the best ways to cut costs was to control labor costs. Outsourcing, fear, etc continued to grow in importance.

Instead of companies investing back into their community, they began to use the community solely as a sales platform. Rather than invest in training, education on the job, or helping out local conditions, companies dropped those kinds of good works and became part of multinational profit mongers, with no interest but $$$. Workers were no longer an asset, but a liability. Cut the highest paid, remove benefits, and destroy unions. Get rid of retirement costs and now, get rid of health care.

Two great examples are Microsoft and Wallmart.
MS long-term planning has been pretty pathetic since the MBAs took over. In fact, I cannot recall the last truly creative idea that has come out of that company. It is far cheaper to hire contract workers, to buy or steal other new ideas, (a truly MS trademark) and to cut benefits for the newest employees. Only a select, top few truly get all the riches. The only thing that MS has going for it are size, inertia of the user industry and slick marketing. Their products and creative juices have sucked big time for a decade.

As for Wallmart, there are some great books and DVDs on this monster. WM, aka China Lite, actually pushes its employees to use state medical and insurance plans not out of some evil plan, but some MBA analysis.

I call this creeping MBAism. CPAs, MBAs looked at earnings and profit and cost and expense as the primary goal. From their perspective, they are right. From a more mature, rational and long-term perspective, it is suicide by penny-counters.
By outsourcing labor, we have a larger, permanent underclass that now does not even show up (conveniently) on the unemployment rolls. Once you reach a certain age or skill level, and you quit looking for work, after a short time, you are no longer unemployed according to the government.

By shutting down longterm goals, our heads and shoulders lead in R&D are losing out to Korea, China, France, (yes, France) and several other nations. Add to this mix a growing religious infiltration of business and governmental bodies, and you see that this rising religious fundamentalism that attacks us is perfectly suited to keep fear, disorganization of labor and the working American right where they want us. under their thumb. Do not discount the damage being done to the rational thinking ability of your worker, by a combination of fundie religious leaders and corporate leaders who either believe, or cravenly use such irrational ways of thinking to further their goals. Of all the countries in the developed world, our work ethic, that vaunted, self-destructive and unhealthy practice, results in the lowest benefits and vacation policies in the world, excepting the third world slave shops. This religious-based idea has always been pushed forward by corporations. Heck, even with our limited benefits, almost every corporate employee I know often avoids vacation, sometimes skips them completely. Why? fear.

Fear is our killer. The answer is to turn it around and put some fear back where it belongs. IN the minds of the corporate leaders. For that, we need new blood and new ideas in a new labor movement.
Fair wages, fair hours, fair working conditions, fair benefits, fair hiring practices, fair promotion practices, no more outsourcing, and reinvestment in our own communities. As a start, these would be a hell of a good thing. Oh, and let's tax the hell out of all religions. That would make this a Great Friday, not just a Good one.

[lostnfound]

47. Corporate lawyers making more than ever...

Houston Chronicle yesterday discussed the $150,000 STARTING SALARIES at Vinson & Elkins and other Houston law firms fighting over the "top candidates" from law school.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

48. which won't pay back their law school costs right away.

And they get to burn their asses in their chairs, billing 350 hours a month.

Those that survive the burnout do very well. But not all do. Many drop out and head to cheaper, but more sane pastures. I know.

What about medical profession?
If we had many more MDs, and made service in small communities a requirement for residency or licensing, would that not help tremendously?
Heck, they may not be able to import US drugs easily, but, Cuba has 3x the docs per 1000 people as the US. by limiting MD licenses, (through stringent admission policies) many good, capable people cannot be MDs. Add the extraordinary high cost of schooling, and what do you have? A health care crisis.
Let's not even consider big Pharma or medical insurers or HMwhores.

[boobooday]

49. Don't forget to stick some of those big bucks in your HSA!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[intheflow]

53. K&R'd. And an off-topic question for nonconformist.

Sorry to kinda hijack your thread, but I love your Jerry Garcia quote! I've actually been looking for this very quote for years. I cut it out of Time magazine when he first said it and glued it onto my college notebook. The notebook was damaged when my pipes burst one winter, and though I've not regretted losing the notes, I have searched for that quote ever since. Where did you find it? And do you remember the context in which he said it? (I seem to remember it was no nukes, or some such.)

[nonconformist]

54. Thanks! I saw it in a compilation of quotes about three years ago

on another site. I thought it was a great quote and remembered it. When I decided that I wanted to use it for my sigline, I googled the quote to confirm it's accuracy. Unfortunately, I'm not sure of the exact context.

[AzDar]

55. I actually lie awake at night, wondering about the future of my two boys..

In 2000, I knew George W. Bush was an unworthy, unelected, moron; and I preached this gospel to anyone who would listen. The only good thing, I reasoned, is that we WILL BE RID OF HIM in 2004.
Never, ever did I dream that he would provoke an unnecessary and illegal war; bankrupting the country in the process, and would now be hinting at using NUKES against Iran.
HOW IS HE GETTING AWAY WITH IT??
HOW???

[Ksec]

56. Go here for the cheap labor stats

http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/showthread.php?id=93

Check out this site.

[nonconformist]

57. Great site, thanks! nt

[Skidmore]

58. I thought we needed to be educating engineers for the

21st century jobs they're creating. For what, so they can work for mimimum wage?

[mobyss]

59. Well, who wants to pay $500 for a VCR?

The market for all electronics and computer-related things is extremely competitive. Until people agree to pay $500 for a VCR, $1000 for a cell phone, and $4000 for a laptop (like they cost when they first came out), then the companies producing these things will try to reduce costs and prices as much as possible. Yeah, capitalism can be ugly - but what's the alternative? I'm sure most everyone here on DU enjoys getting a "free" cellphone every two years when they renew their contract, and getting that new PC with flat-screen monitor for $399.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mobyss]

71. Construction wages?

The plummeting wages in construction?

Simple - the guy that used to do it for $18 per hour has been replaced by the guy that will do it for $8 per hour. I've been living in Maricopa county AZ for the past 11 year, and the population has doubled. Probably half of that increase has been illegal aliens, and they will work for cheaper than taxpaying US citizens will at every job. Until a serious effort to control the border and regulate illegal immigration is made, the trend will continue.

Who has the will to control the border and regulate illegal immigration? Reid? Frist? Kennedy? McCain? H. Clinton? Bush?

None of the above - they are all benefiting immensely by the downward trend on wages and construction costs.

Are regular Democrats or Republicans benefiting?

[nonconformist]

78. You have to crack down on the corporations that hire illegal employees

And congress has to raise the minimum wage. That is the ONLY way the trend will stop.

I guarantee you it will NEVER stop so long as the Big Business Republicans are in control of all three branches of government. They love cheap labor too much.

I find it interesting that you are so quick to defend outsourcing but deride insourcing. They're the same sheep in different clothing.

[tsuki]

75. My girlfriend and I tried in the 1990's to figure out housing prices.

We took all the non-productive costs like insurance and taxes, licenses and permits, and started to put them on a spread sheet. By the time we got to 40% the cost we stopped as the costs were getting more difficult to track.

[Ksec]

61. The price of labor

makes up only a miniscule amount of the total cost of a product. Thats fact.

Now if thats the case, why are you falling for the cheap labor spiel and repeating it as if it were fact?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nonconformist]

63. And I for one would gladly pay a bit more for lettuce if I knew the worker

was being paid a living wage. I think most people would, truth be known.

[Elwood P Dowd]

64. What gets me

is these nuts post stuff like this without ever thinking, like they're trained robots.

The price of a VCR would go from $50.00 to $500.00? That would mean there is an extra $450.00 passed on to the customer because of increased labor costs.

[nonconformist]

65. They play the "fear" card, to hell with the facts

It's all they really know.

And in typical form, they post and run.

[mobyss]

66. Whoa, whoa, whoa bro!

Who said anything about me "supporting" illegal alien workers making $2 per hour picking lettuce?

I'm the absolute first person that would agree to force ALL employers to hire legal workers, then restrict the supply of labor to cause wages to rise.

But the flip side of all this is the reality that cheap prices = squeezing every last penny out of every step of the production process.

The gist of this article was electrical engineers and software programmers - both industries where price deflation has been more extreme than anything else (seriously, think about digital cameras, flat TVs, cell phones, laptops), and how the wages for some of those positions has gone down.

What Dobbs never mentioned here is that engineering jobs with defense contractors (usually requiring US citizenship and security clearances) have seen nice wage improvments.

What do I personally think? - deport 99% of the illegal aliens, limit ALL types of H1-B and other immigration (some allowed, but not a lot - maybe 50K per year), then educate all the forgotten people in the inner cities, trailer parks, etc for the jobs - or pay the "uneducatable" a decent wage for the manual labor work. No, instead we'll rebuilt the ninth ward with cheap illegal alien labor so the mostly black residents can move back in, and sit there and wait for the next hurricane to kill them - and import "guest workers" to do the jobs that "Americans won't do".

[nonconformist]

67. And the "gist" of the facts are that corporations POCKET the profits

Cheap labor means MORE PROFITS. Look at the statistics.

Here's one to get you started:

http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Story/Story.aspx?guid={C4257910-8351-437A-8C00-E4CF3B782091}&siteid=mktw&dist=

Corporate Profits at 40 Year High; Wages at 40 Year Low

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- U.S. corporate profits have increased 21.3% in the past year and now account for the largest share of national income in 40 years, the Commerce Department said Thursday.

Strong productivity gains and subdued wage growth boosted before-tax profits to 11.6% of national income in the fourth quarter of 2005, the biggest share since the summer of 1966.

For all of 2005, before-tax profits totaled $1.35 trillion, up from $1.16 trillion in 2004 and just $767 billion in 2001.
Meanwhile, the share of national income going to wage and salary workers has fallen to 56.9%. Except for a brief period in 1997, that's the lowest share for labor income since 1966.

<snip>

The threat of raising prices is a tool so that you will support cheap labor. Prices are dictated by what the consumer will pay, not a set markup. It's Econ 101.

[mobyss]

72. I agree

"Prices are dictated by what the consumer will pay, not a set markup. It's Econ 101"

Agree 100%. And more people want to buy their digital cameras from Walmart - made in China, than from a high-end US-based electronics store selling US made cameras.

Same with clothing, household goods, shoes, cars, toys, etc, etc, etc.

Until the US consumer says "No - I will pay more on priciple to support my fellow American" this trend will continue. Don't hold your breath.

[nonconformist]

74. It's not up to the consumer, it's up to the corporations

and to Congress to dictate wages. Most consumers will automatically buy the cheapest item.

And once again, you are sidestepping the glaring fact that cheap labor isn't what keeps prices "low" - because the corporations are simply pocketing the profits. Prices are often kept artificially low so that you will support cheap labor. Do some research, you will be amazed.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tsuki]

77. Let's make sure those CEOs make a half billion dollars by

vilifying the minimum wage.

[Post]

73. Immigration: GOP Conundrum

Not the fight they should have taken on. First off, we're a growing economy with a decreasing population growth. Most immigration jobs go to housing construction, roofing, etc. - not agriculture. We have 4.7 unemployment, which means most everyone who wants to is working. We need the labor to continue the growth. More here: http://postanapology.blogspot.com/2006/04/immigration-cant-take-stand.html#links

[Zodiak]

80. Will Americans left out of the system take up pitchforks and torches?

I hope not, but my guess is that it will come to that. The rich have never given up their lofty position without a little blood in the streets. We were damned lucky in the Robber Baron period to avoid full-scale revolution. The Red Scare was very real for a reason.