Do you believe Paul Wellstone was murdered?

[Pryderi]

[napi21]

1. I''m very very sorry that one of my heros is dead. But candidates

do some very dumb things to win. I've read a lot of reports on the plane crash, and I really do believe that small craft shouldn't have been flying that night!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. The accident occurred during the day in marginal weather.

The King Air is a very safe airplane, but unfortunately the two pilots were not as skilled as they should have been. They had flown through the final approach course on a non-precision approach, were trying to find the runway in marginal visibility, weren't paying attention to their airspeed, got too slow (80 kts), and stalled and crashed. It was a sad, stupid accident of a sort that happens from time to time when pilots are poorly trained, inexperienced (as the co-pilot was; I had met him before and knew some people who knew him well -- he was a nice guy but not well-qualified), and/or inattentive. Put the tinfoil away; much as I'd like to believe Dick Cheney did it, this was an accident.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

5. That's exactly what they want you to believe, isn't it?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. I believe it because I know some people involved and because

I work in aviation, including teaching an accident investigation class. There was never any credible evidence that this was anything but an accident, and all sorts of evidence that it was. If anyone comes up with some hard facts indicating sabotage or something of the sort, that could change my mind, but sometimes things are just accidents, even if they involve controversial people. I was an ardent Wellstone supporter who worked on his campaign, and I hate to think he died needlessly because some people were sloppy and incompetent, but unfortunately those things do happen. Not everything is a criminal conspiracy.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. The GOP took his seat during the subsequent election, didn't they?....

...Just because things look normal looking from the outside doesn't mean they actually were normal. You have to also consider who gained the most by Wellstone's death.

[Deja Q]

15. They played up the memorial service right enough...

even Norm Coleman's obvious use of Wellstone's death as a stepping stone helped seal the deal.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc -- the logical fallacy.

Show me some evidence, not just the fact the GOP won. It was very close, even after Mondale stepped in.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. The idea behind an assassination is that you never leave behind....

...enough evidence to put you at the scene of the crime.

You can believe whatever you want to believe, but I've been around long enough to recognize the signs when I see them.

[Gman]

103. Do you think they're stupid enough to leave evidence?

We're dealing with the best of the best in black bag jobs. I have a strong fear another Democratic Senator will die this year under similarly suspicious circumstances. My fear is based on the fact that the GOP is in real danger of losing the Senate as well as the house.

[Marie26]

21. Thanks for the insights . nt

[Poppyseedman]

22. People like you are the first to be duped............

Yup, cold hard facts should never get in the way of the "truth"................. "rolling eyes"

[WhiteTara]

32. but isn't it strange that repukes never seem

to die in small plane crashes? Just asking.

[goclark]

39. Has there ever been a Peb that had a "accident" in

a small plane?

I can't think of one.

[WhiteTara]

54. me either. Only dems and opposition leaders

get the bad planes, the bad pilots and the bad breaks.

[QC]

60. John Heinz? n/t

[tom_paine]

63. Heinz was a "Liberal Republican" and an opponent of the Bush Family

In other words, to them he was "as bad as Wellstone".

[QC]

95. But he was a Republican.

That was the question: do Republicans ever get killed in plane crashes.

John Tower was no liberal and no enemy of the Bu$hes, and he was killed in one, too.

[dflprincess]

203. But wasn't Tower working on something to do with Iran-Contra?

That would have been enough to threaten Poppy and his pals.

[Poppyseedman]

81. That's because they fly in their Lear Jet gulf streams

not little puddle jumpers

[Mr_Spock]

59. I totally believe you - too many tinfoil hats in this poll

It's totally embarrassing to me to see a poll like this and people attacking common sense liberals like you who know more about this crash than most.

[oblivious]

73. "Not everything is a criminal conspiracy"..... Who said it was?

[mnmoderatedem]

105. I think you're exactly right

I have friends who are pilots and state adamently that it was nothing more than pilot error.

Sometines a plane crash is just a plane crash.

[ladjf]

29. I don't want to get into a big argument here. But, your descriptions

of the Wellstone accident sounds more like the gvt. explanation that a description of believable events from the perspective of a professional pilot. (My case: 6,000+ pilot in command hrs.)
In the first place, the ceiling at the crash site was high enough that the pilots could have had visual contact with the ground sufficient to take actions. Many other aspects of the crash defy all norms of the usual low ceiling approaches. I'm not going to start listing all of these.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

36. Professional pilot here, too...

Also got some info from people involved in the legal part of it, not just the NTSB report. Visibility wasn't all that great, and to make matters worse the airport itself (which I have been to) is hard to see, even in good vis because it's out in the woods. Just saying, I still have no reason to believe this was anything but an accident. And I have problems with citing a *lack* of evidence of a conspiracy as evidence of the conspiracy.

[ladjf]

46. The hardest part for me to swallow is the minutes that they

more or less wandered around the area at 80 mph. What kind of pilot malfeasance would have explained that? Even if their major instruments, VOR, DME, GPA all failed, a simple ADF which all instruments have and in this case two ADF's would have clearly shown the direction to the airport or to anywhere else within low freq radio range. I don't know what kind of instrument they were attempting or even what is available at that airport.But, the descriptions of the last minutes makes no sense. I have been a lifelong student of air accident causes. Time and time again, one sees certain patterns of external items, i.e. weather, mechanical failure plus the usual pilot errors, i.e. fuel mismanagement, contact with ground on faulty instrument approaches. But, this crash had NONE of the familiar themes. One would have to believe that the pilots were drunk to the point of near unconsciousness to fly a functioning airplane in such a manner.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

48. Unfortunately, both pilots had a history of problems.

The same charter outfit had had an earlier fatal accident a few years before involving a botched approach; they were known to be a bit loose with their procedures and training, and there was no CRM training worth mentioning. There may have been a fatigue issue with the captain, as well -- he worked nights as a nurse. The way they say it happened is really pretty believable; if both pilots are looking for the airport (and that one really is hard to see), and they were tired and distracted, it's not too hard to imagine how they could get way below blue line and stall out. A classic bad CRM accident -- nobody was flying the airplane.

That said, if somebody produces actual concrete evidence that it was something other than an accident, I am perfectly prepared to change my mind.

[DemonFighterLives]

174. Ocelot, I respect you immensely

but I do not agree with you on this.

Of course the evidence for conspiracy is hard to find and the investigation was not in that realm. First off the fact that all those FBI guys were up there from the Twin Cities before Wellstone flying there. The other thing that throws me was Carol Carmody (ex cia) up there speaking for the NTSB blaming it on the weather before any investigation took place. Goofy Wolfy Blitzer was trying to put the weather meme out there when speaking to a witness from the area and the witness had to correct him a couple times that the icing was not a problem.

When poppy calls you(Wellstone) a little chickenshit, I'd say your goose is cooked. You don't want the bush crime family mad at you. The fact that GFY cheney and dubby were all over the state propping up hollowman coleman and dragging millions $ from outstate says the rest. A couple of days before election he dies. I could see the fear in colemans wife's eyes when at he innaugeration when she realized what noamie had done. He became a bushbot with no going back!
:cry:

[Jakey]

107. The hardest part for me to swallow...

is that you have the experience you claim to have.

...this crash had NONE of the familiar themes

This crash is a near textbook example of the danger that pilot/crew incompetence mixed with marginal weather presents.

[Jakey]

96. Better check your facts...the weather sucked

in that area and was even deteriorating. If you check the nearest Wx reporting station to Eveleth (I forget the name...some 16 miles away), you will note that in the 5 minute period at the time of the crash the ceiling went from 500 to 300 agl, which would be well below the minimums for the Eveleth approach. As we are dealing with probabilities...

the ceiling at the crash site was high enough that the pilots could have had visual contact with the ground sufficient to take actions

it seems more probable that the crew never attained the visual conditions needed to safely complete this approach.

[ladjf]

127. You are the one who had better check out the facts.

"The pilots of Wellstone's plane radioed that they were two miles out, clicked up the runway lights, and had the airstrip in sight, said Traci Chacich, the airport's office manager. That was the last that airport employees heard from them.

Weather not that bad
Some officials and media reports blamed bad weather, but witnesses said conditions were not that bad at the time of Wellstone's accident. It was cloudy with a little ice, but there was little wind. Other pilots landed without problem during that same time and said the conditions were not bad. Airport visibility was about 3 miles at the time the plane went down, which was adequate.
Another pilot who landed a slightly larger twin-engine plane at the same airport that same day a couple of hours before Wellstone's plane crashed, told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that he experienced no significant problems. There was very light ice, "but nothing to be alarmed about," pilot Ray Juntunen said. "It shouldn't have been a problem."

"

[Name removed]

130. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bushwick Bill]

50. FTW articles

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/070605_wellstone.shtml
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110102_wellstone.html

[marmar]

2. I voted no, but...

I'll qualify it by saying I wouldn't put anything past today's Republican Party.

[AtomicKitten]

4. It's a gut feeling I realize

but Paul was way too dangerous to the machine to be allowed to live.

[AndyTiedye]

6. The Rethugs' Margin of Control of the Senate in '03-'04 was…

…TWO AIRPLANE CRASHES

[Skip Intro]

7. I knew it immediately when I heard his plane went down

Can't explain it, but I knew it, sure as I knew the 2000 election was being stolen when the networks took Florida from Gore to Undecided.

[Punkingal]

23. Me, too.

I just knew. And all the logic in the world is not gonna convince me otherwise.

[latebloomer]

24. me too

My very first thought was "They killed him."

[Pachamama]

76. When I heard it on NPR, I gasped and said "OMG, they killed him"

Yes, it was a completely gut level response but I also want to say that it was an overwhelming realization and intuitive insight.

The stakes were so high. Wellstone was a threat to the machine and his seat oh so valuable. His death and Norm Coleman's taking it meant that they had the control of the Senate....it was a necessary step in their plans for complete control.

So, I personally have no doubt that this involved foul play. And while it may never be proved, I believe a large majority of people in his home state believe it too.

[Castilleja]

162. My exact thoughts when I heard as well

Looks like quite a few others had the same thoughts at the time.

[stillcool]

9. I voted YES....

"Anti-conspiracists insist that, unlike the rest of us, the rich
and powerful do not act with deliberate intent." Michael Parenti

In a roomful of smoking guns, they demand a smoking cannon.

The well-known term "conspiracy" may not actually serve us very
well, since it suggests an arcane aberration rather than the
normal workings of our ruling class.

The trivialization of conspiracism may itself be a conspiracy.

Humpty-Dumpty was pushed.

With the JFK assassination we gave up part of our democracy and
we're not going to get it back unless we find out who did it.
Prof. Peter Dale Scott sees the JFK assassination as an "internal
adjustment".
http://www.killinghope.org/

[Left Is Write]

10. Yes. That is the one tinfoil theory I do subscribe to.

[killbotfactory]

11. It is extremely easy to sabatoge small planes and make it look

like an accident. I have no idea, really, if he was assassinated, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Actually, it isn't that easy. Also, if the plane had been sabotaged before

leaving St. Paul it almost certainly wouldn't have made it all the way to Eveleth, and it wouldn't have crashed in the way it did.

[killbotfactory]

18. Well, according to ex-spook Robert Baer, it is

And the director of Syriana won't fly in small planes anymore, as a result of talks with him and other agents like him.

[ladjf]

31. Raytheon, the manufacturer of the King Air are a leading company

in the field of ground based laser to air technology. The instruments on the King Air could have been incapacitated by various ground sources. Or, they could have been sabotaged before takeoff with the failure sequence occurring on approach. The most puzzling fact about the crash was that plane wandered around,of course, at 80 mph for several minutes. No pilots are that poor. In my opinion, they either weren't conscious or the controls were somehow incapacitated.

Ground control of flying planes has been developed for many years.

[Jakey]

157. You, Sir, are a fraud

No pilot (and I mean NO pilot) would couch airspeed in terms of MPH. It's KNOTS you phony...

[Poppyseedman]

13. If Paul Wellstone was murdered, Ron Brown was as well.

The internet biggest drawback is the Tin Foil Hats brigades roam free and wide developing the most ludicrous six degrees associations to prove conspiracies or the version of that's day "truth"

But to each his own

[Pastiche423]

16. The 1st words out of my mouth

when I heard about the crash were, They got him!

Nothing that I have read or heard since then (and I've read everything I could find), has changed my opinion.

Paul, Sheila, Marcia and the others were murdered.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. FBI special agents from Minneapolis arrived at the scene

about one hour after the crash, secured the site to themselves for eight hours before the NTSB showed up, and are not listed as a party to the investigation in the final report.

A team from Minneapolis, arriving that early, would have needed to have departed before Wellstone.


In American Assassination: The Strange Death of Senator Paul Wellstone, there's a transcript of this curious exchange between co-author Four Arrows and Frank Hildrup, lead investigator of the National Transportation Safety Board:

FOUR ARROWS: Why was the FBI not listed as party to the investigation in the final NTSB report on the Wellstone case?

FRANK HILDRUP: They were not a party to the investigation.

FA: Then what were they doing on the scene for about 8 hours prior to the arrival of the NTSB team?

FH: I can’t say for sure, since I only took over on Monday; but maybe they were responding to the – you know – the conspiracy theories.

FA: How could there have been any conspiracy theories operating before the plane crashed?

FH: Well, uh, of course, that’s true. Well, the FBI might have been there to identify the bodies as they sometimes do in airplane accidents. I’m not really sure but there is someone with the FBI I can call who was there. I’ll get back to you about this.

FA: I’d really appreciate it. Don’t you think it strange?

FH: Well, I just know everything is above board but I do want to find out.

FA: One more question. Why no public hearing for this incident?

FH: We only have hearings for high profile cases.

There's no shortage of reasons why this exchange is curious, but chief among them is the fact that the only explanation the NTSB's lead investigator can offer for the praeternaturally early arrival upon the crash scene of the FBI is that it was responding to "conspiracy theories."

The Wellstone crash site was located by Eveleth Airport Assistant Manager Gary Ulman at approximately 11:00 AM. Ulman didn't contact the FBI, yet a team of special agents arrived to secure the site just an hour later, according to the Sheriff of St Louis County, Rick Wahlberg. Even more astonishing, the FBI contingent was from Minneapolis, not the closer Duluth, even though they had driven to Eveleth from Duluth in cars they had rented at the airport.

Authors Jim Fetzer and Four Arrows write:

The crash, you may recall, did not actually occur until about 10:20 AM and had not been visually confirmed until 11:00 AM. Ulman did not notify the FBI that there had been a crash - ever. Even if a 911 operator had notified the FBI around 11:00 AM, how in the world did these very special agents know that they needed to head for the airport by 9:28 AM in order to be in Eveleth by noon? Perhaps the FBI possesses psychic powers and can anticipate the occurances of tragedies of this kind in advance.

Good thing the FBI got an early start. Conspiracy theories are a helluva thing.

[azurnoir]

28. Eveleth

is at least 30-45 minutes from Duluth by road

[Lindacooks]

68. The agents were in Minneapolis.

And getting to Duluth from Minneapolis takes at least three hours at normal speed.

[jbnow]

30. I thought it was a tragic accident until

I was doing a google search on something completely unrelated to any political thing. It was about powerful magnetics and it was an MRI question I was trying to understand.
A link led me to an article in Popular mechanics or something and it was about electromagnetic pulses and weapons. Not related to what I sought but I read it. They said something about there was nothing developed yet that would bring down a large passenger plane because of something about them being sheilded...but then off handedly said they could easily be used to bring down small planes and explained why.

The science was above my head but that startled me and I thought of Wellstone and started looking into that. There is so much cause to be suspicious it is stunning. The idea of him being intentionally killed is so outrageous and horrible I just hadn't taken mention of it seriously.

But what you mention about the FBI being there so much sooner then possible (Unless they were having an FBI workshop nearby that they just didn't mention) is just beyond chance. How can we overlook it?

Now I still wanted to find a reasonable explanation so I kept looking. There just isn't any. The facts of where they came from, when they got there and how long everyone else was kept away are not disputed, not even by the FBI. I didn't have to go to conspiracy sites to find them. There is no reasonable explanation offered.

I want a reasonable explanation. I don't know why they'd need to kill him though I do understand why they didn't like him. He wasn't that powerful. Did he have some information he was going to reveal? I have no idea.

I also have no idea why answers weren't demanded. Maybe it seems too horrible to be true and so we look the other way. Maybe it is not true...but then please, where are the reasonable explanations?

[Lars39]

45. I remember seeing a program on 60 Minutes or 20/20 a year or two

before Wellestone's crash that detailed how the EMP(?) weapons worked,
even gave a demonstration of some sort, and airplanes *were* mentioned.
It would be interesting if someone could find that program.

[Zookeeper]

56. "He wasn't that powerful."

Well, he was a total pain in the ass, as far as BushCo was concerned. He was the only Senator who they knew would continue to stand up and speak his mind.

I'm not prone to wearing a tin foil hat, but Wellstone's "accident" was just a little too convenient for BushCo and Norm Coleman.

[jbnow]

70. He was a pain in their neck

and ass and every other part. He wasn't the only Senator to stand up...Feingold spoke and alone voted against the Patriot Act but had many views and votes in common with Wellstone.

However Wellstone was running for re-election that year and the repubs wanted the majority. Feingold was not.

Wellstone was also a frequent guest on political shows. That was how I first noticed him and I just adored him. He was everything I dreamed a politician would be, very bright, thoughtful, spoke directly without spin, had humor and graciousness, wisdom. I loved him, he gave me hope in America.

His was a voice that was invited to speak and he spoke well, convincingly.

It just doesn't seem enough to kill someone for, but then what would. That's why I wondered if he was about to reveal something or had confronted them with something. But it might be enough that he was who he was and was up for re-election and was winning.

I can't believe the accident investigation was let go with so much unexplained.

What a loss, what a void he left.

[Zookeeper]

74. I vote for...

it was "enough that he was who he was and was up for re-election.."

They really wanted Norm Coleman to win that Senate seat. And he has been a good little BushCo toady ever since.

[Raster]

85. Yes, he was that powerful. His power came from his refusal to accept the

corporate status quo ruling Washington. Does anyone have any doubt how vigorously he would be denouncing bushco* and their crony capitalism and wholesale rape, plunder and pillage of America. Wellstone was dangerous because he would speak out. Contrast to our current crop of Dems in Congress, for the most part collusionists and collaborators. Wellstone would have made a powerful voice, cutting through the bullshit. He needed to be taken out.

[Zookeeper]

144. Agreed. n/t

[Appalachian_American]

206. Now we're getting somewhere. Maybe that's why the Dems

take a more low-key approach to everything. They want to live.

[DemonFighterLives]

211. Good answer

Welcome to DU!
:thumbsup:

[Lostnote06]

61. thank you MB.....The FBIs timely arrival leads me to

...believe that much more is afoot wrt Wellstone.....his strident opposition to off-shore companys receiving Homeland Security contracts sealed his fate IMO...

[DemonFighterLives]

175. thanks for showing up here

What a great addition to the thread. It was the psychic branch of bushco. Just like having FEMA on site for 911. This administration just has a knack for being in the right place at the right time.
:donut:

[happydreams]

215. The emergency response team that

worked Wellstone's crash was also, coincidently, the same team that responded to the WTC attacks on 9/11/01. They were nabbed for stealing evidence from the crime scene.

[stevietheman]

25. Were Republicans John Tower and John Heinz killed off too? n/t

n/t

[dailykoff]

42. Probably. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

55. Remember that John Tower was head of the Tower Commisssion

which implicated Reagan in the Iran-Contra scandal

[tom_paine]

64. Tower was starting to write a tell-all Iran-Contra Book. Heinz

was a Liberal Republican (when there were such things) and a stauch opponent of the Imperial Family.

The thing these two men had in common was that they were enemies to what is now the Amerikan Imperial Family.

[stevietheman]

129. This is essentially why I think these particular conspiracy theories...

hold no water... the "Amerikan Imperial Family" has multiple powerful enemies, most of whom are still alive today...

why would anyone be selective and go after a couple Democrats or a couple Republicans, none of whom by themselves would have been *that* destructive of a force against their political enemies.

I do believe that Wellstone, as good a man as he was, is being put up on some pedestal here. Yes, he was a special person, but not so powerful or dangerous that anyone would necessarily want to bring him down.

I continuously wonder why nobody brings up a plausible motive when it comes to any of these events.

[rman]

172. If all GOP opponents would die under suspicious circumstances,

it would look, well... rather suspicious, would it not? So they don't kill all of them - it's a matter of priority, opportunity, and the ability to get away with it.

[stevietheman]

182. But still no motive.

I just think that small planes are just hazardous vehicles to commute in--and that's all that happened in any of these cases. Just dumb luck.

[rman]

205. No motive?

These people who have died under suspicious/violent circumstances were a threat to the RW.
That's motive.

[Gman]

26. Mel Carnahan was murdered as was Wellstone

Patrick Leahey and Tom Daschle had anthrax sent to them. The RW kills people as part of the culture wars. We don't even act like we're at war and they're killing us.

[ladjf]

33. the Carnahan accident also included what appeared to be very

strange failure of critical flight instruments.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. And also just before an election.

[stevietheman]

184. And this coming from the "critical thinking" side?

I mean come on, wake up people...

I'm saying the obvious, but "just before an election", the candidates are criss-crossing their states in many, many flights, and in these cases, small planes that don't normally have any backup if their engines fail.

Where's the critical thinking??? Don't we liberals pride ourselves in that???

[DemonFighterLives]

191. No evidence the engine failed

How's that for ctitical thinking?

[stevietheman]

193. Yep, lack of evidence sure does prove a lot.

Sorry, what you said was not what I'd call critical thinking.

But if anything leads to a plane failing, not just their engines, it's not like these planes have supplementary parachutes for them to land safely with.

[DemonFighterLives]

200. The pilot was blamed

Tha darn plane could have probably glided the rest of the way. Something interfered with the proper operation of the plane. IMHO

[Jakey]

202. Something did interfere...

with the proper operation of the plane. Incompetence.

[DemonFighterLives]

210. That is what "they" say

I personally believe that Wellstone had qualified pilots.
NTSB showed their incompetence by blaming the weather on day 1 and then never investigating any other possibilities like why the fire burned like mad while the wings carrying the fuel were away from the plane.

[Yupster]

44. And we retained his seat

which would make you wonder why they thought it would work with Wellstone when it didn't work with Carnahan. You'd think they'd have a different plan if they were that conspiratorial. You wouldn't think they'd take such a risk to repeat a plan that didn't work the time before.

[ladjf]

47. Carnahan's wife won the seat. Wellstone's wife was killed in the

crash.

[Art_from_Ark]

65. And the Wellstone crash sent Democrats scrambling for a replacement

while Carnahan's name was allowed to remain on the ballot. Another slight but important feature that distinguishes these accidents from one another-- one happened a little after a deadline, the other happened a little before a deadline.

[Jakey]

101. There was no "strange failure" of instruments...

In fact, his flight instrumentation had been a source of trouble just before the fateful flight.

[ladjf]

124. I don't know the instrument status prior to the flight. But, I do recall

the pilot, Carnahan's son, saying to the controller that his instruments seemed to be malfunctioning.

[happydreams]

198. In 1976 Ashcroft moved up over Litton planecrash too.

http://www.umsystem.edu/whmc/Mohist/aug3.html

[Swamp Rat]

27. Tinfoil I eat and egest

:crazy:

Baby Jesus told me Wellstone was murdered by Dick Cheney.

:yoiks:

[Pachamama]

77. I'll just call you the Aluminium Rat!

:hi:

[nonconformist]

34. I honestly don't know what to think.

Part of me says thinks it was totally an accident, but what I do know is that these fuckers are corrupt to the core, and they still continue to do things that simply amaze me. Who knows what additional crimes and shady dealings there are. But all in all, I lean towards accident. A very, very unfortunate accident - we need Wellstone dearly now.

[roody]

37. Would that make the odds 50/50?

[nonconformist]

41. It means I don't know.

I have an open mind about it though.

[Greybnk48]

35. Not a doubt in my mind--none n/t

[azurnoir]

38. Slightly off topic

after Paul's death our newly elected repuke governor (Pawlenty) tried to fine the estate I believe 2 million dollars because supposedly the flight plan was improperly filed. I never found out what happened with that but it was disgusting none the less.

[Lars39]

40. good grief!

Disgusting is an understatement.

[MODemocrat]

49. Yes, how many republicans have been killed in planes

Wellstone was becoming too strong a candidate; and they (right-wing) simply got rid of their opponent.
That's my opinion; Mel Caranahan: there's no doubt in my mind about him either. If it were me running for an office and getting ahead, I definitely would not take a private plane. :evilfrown: :scared: :scared:

[Bushwick Bill]

51. Democrats twice as likely...

to die in plane crashes, per this:
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/110102_wellstone.html

Here is a more recent article on Wellstone.
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/070605_wellstone.shtml

[Pryderi]

53. Shooting is too risky. [JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcolm X] Planes are easier and

less suspicious.

[Yupster]

119. Neat site

There really just haven't been too many politicians, or famous ones anyway who've died recently in plane crashes. Kind of amazing since they take small planes sometimes five times a day during campaigns.

Anyway, since 1990 we have

____________________________________________________________

Heinz who was a Republican Senator

Tower who was a Republican former Senator (do formers count?)

Mickelson who was a Republican Governor of SD

Brown who was a Democratic cabinet officer

Carnahan who was a Democratic Senatorial candidate

Wellstone who was a Democratic Senator

_____________________________________________________________

Doesn't really tell me anything. I guess DU'ers or 75 % of them would say Wellstone was killed by Bush and 75 % of freepers would say Ron Brown was killed by Clinton.

[rinsd]

131. What an amazingly bad use of statistics....

"Democrats twice as likely..."

Self selected criteria with a tiny sample size.

Yeah that's conclusive.

:eyes:

[stevietheman]

186. Yep, and further, it stands to reason that Democratic candidates...

tend to "travel on the cheap" compared to Republicans. Republicans probably depend more on jets than twin-engine planes.

Yep, there are lies, damned lies, and then statistics.

[onenote]

83. quite a few actually

April 19, 1993: South Dakota Gov. George Mickelson, killed along with seven other people when their state-owned plane crashes in a rainstorm near Dubuque, Iowa.

April 5, 1991 — Former Sen. John Tower, R-Texas, killed in the crash of an Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight near Brunswick, Ga.

April 1, 1991 — Sen. John Heinz, R-Pa., killed when his plane collides with a helicopter over Merion, Pa.

Aug. 13, 1989 — Rep. Larkin Smith, R-Miss., killed along with his pilot when their Cessna 177 crashes into the DeSoto National Forest in Mississippi.

Aug. 2, 1978 — Richard Obenshain, Republican candidate for Senate from Virginia, killed when plane crashes near Richmond, Va. John Warner, now top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, was picked to run in his place.

[rucky]

86. John Tower?

that was awhile ago.

:shrug:

[Zorra]

52. Yep. n/t

[Mr_Spock]

57. Ugggh

How embarrassing :blush:

He may have been quite liberal, but he was hardly somebody anybody would want to murder.

:blush: :(

[Art_from_Ark]

66. Maybe you should read a little more about Mr. Wellstone

as viewed from the eyes of one of the major papers of a neighboring state, the year before his demise:

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views01/0424-07.htm

[rinsd]

133. You have to be kidding me....

That article reads like a press release from Wellstone's campaign and can hardly be counted on as an honest assessment of Bush's "fear" of Wellstone.

[Pastiche423]

67. Hardly somebody anybody would want to murder?

Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020527/nichols

[rinsd]

134. A desire to defeat politically is now motive for murder?

Christ if that's the criteria the Secret Service would be knocking on alot of DUer doors.

[Pastiche423]

139. Are a lot of DUers politicians?

Sadly yes, a desire to defeat politically is and has been a motive for murder for some time.

[janx]

58. No. n/t

[tom_paine]

62. 90% certainty. Wellstone was wellstoned

My guess is the Busheviks didn't themselves do it.

Maybe Blackwater mercs, maybe Colombians (they tried to blow Wellstone up in 2000 when he visited checking on the Bushevik Black Op "Plan Colombia"), who will ever know?

But he was almost certainly murdered.

Cui bono?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Maybe.

Maybe not.

The fact that it was a key to controlling the Senate makes it more foily.

[lovuian]

71. My siggy says Everything is connected and there are NO

coincidences... Welstone was assasinated by Bush...

[Peter Frank]

72. If Pentagon 911 videos can be seized (never to be seen publically)...

...anything is possible.

Scholars for 9/11 Truth - Official Petition
by bemindfull
Thu Mar 09, 2006 at 01:48:03 PM PDT
Since 75% of respondents to this poll on dkos believes either the NeoCons, or the NeoCons working in collaboration with al Qaeda, had planned and carried out 9/11, I thought that a lot people here would like to sign this.

Scholars Call for Release of 9/11 Information


1. Immediate...release of the video tape seized by FBI agents minutes after the Pentagon hit, from the fuel service station near the Pentagon, as well as any other videotape which shows the 9/11 strike on the Pentagon.
..
2. Immediate release of 6,899 photographs and 6,977 segments of video footage held by NIST, largely from private photographers, regarding the collapses of WTC buildings on 9/11/2001 (NIST, 2005, p. 81).

They're hoping to get 10,000+ signatures, so go sign it and spread it around if this your cup of tea.

http://georgia10.dailykos.com/tag/petition

edit for reference

[DemonFighterLives]

212. I signed

Evidence leads to the truth.
:thumbsup:

[EFerrari]

75. Of course they killed him.

You all have seen what they are capable of and you doubt this? :eyes:

Keep your Dem leaders off of small planes.

[Yupster]

120. When campaign time starts

every Democratic senatorial candidate who will be able to afford it will be hopping all over their state in a small plane sometimes making six flights a day.

Republican candidates and rich Democratic ones will be using corporate jets.

[EFerrari]

132. I wish you hadn't pointed that out to me.

lol

[Raine]

78. Yes

without a doubt in my mind.

[Alexodin]

79. A small balloon in the gas tank makes it look like you have gas

when you don't.

Read Barry and the Boys or don't.

[Nobody]

80. The timing was waaaaaaaay too convenient

11 days before the election. The very day that would force all Wellstone absentee votes to not count. The cutoff day to find a replacement if he died. Had he died on the 26th instead of the 25th, his name would have stayed on the ballot and a replacement could be selected later.

[Junkdrawer]

100. I screamed that over and over when it happened...

That, and the "it just fell like a stone" nature of the "accident" tells me it was a hit.

[stevietheman]

188. Yeah, and he wasn't crisscrossing his state repeatedly...

in a campaign using a small plane... Jeez.

[arwalden]

82. Wow... Who Knew There Were So Many Tin-Foil Kooks?

This is the SAME exact mindset on FreeRepublic regarding "Did Hillary kill Vince Foster?" or "Did Bill kill Ron Brown?". No evidence required, just a willingness to believe anything bad about your political enemies.

So Bushco would REALLY risk getting caught murdering a US senator fully knowing there was STILL a good chance they could lose the seat anyway?

Was Wellstone SO different from any other politician out there that he had to be killed? He was THE number one threat to the Bush family?

People are nuts.

[QC]

97. OMG! They've gotten to you, too! n/t

[seemslikeadream]

99. 1 billion threat to Dick Cheney

n/t

[seemslikeadream]

102. 1999 Halliburton CEO - Cheney aquires Dresser

LeftHander (1000+ posts) Fri Aug-06-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
18. Asbestos keeps cropping up....
Ahhhhh asbestos....I am keenly interested in asbestos....

1999 Halliburton CEO - Cheney aquires Dresser (Harbison-Walker)

Dresser is a longtime Bush family company.

These companies were steeped in the Asbestos quagmire. At the edge of ruin. 200,000 asbestos claims that could reach 2-3 million a piece.

In June of 2002 Halliburton had lost a large claim and sent the stock tumbling to a dangerous low.

I believe Cheney took on Dresser as a favor to GHWBush and the Bush family. His task was to prevent Asbestos claims from destroying Dresser and Harbison-Walker. Using his defence contacts he was able to secure BILLIONS of U.S. dollars in a war in Iraq to bolster HAL stock and give time for Buddies like Orin Hatch to push a bad asbestos liability bill through congress. Which required a GOP controlled senate. Wellstone dies in a crash. As a asbestos victim advocate he would NEVER of stood and allowed the Asbestos bill introduced by Hatch to live as long as it did. They spent millions on ads trying to convince limiting asbestos liability was good for victims.

The bill now stalled or dead has disappeared from the public as the war in Iraq and the election dominates the media.

The asbestos libility and estimated 750,000 claims is the single most expensive liability claim tracked to a single cause in U.S. history. Tort reform and Judicial appointments all now appear to guided by the outcome of this bill. Interestingly enough the public is now being hit with another campaign to allow Bush judicial appointments to go ahead.

For Bush to not gain the Presidency in November will certainly mean that any asbestos friendly legislation will be difficult if not impossible to pass. Funds pooling into Halliburton as a result of Cheney's open ended no-bid contracts will surely end and put Halliburton at risk for complete dissolution as law suits send the company spiraling into financial oblivion.

With the above threads it really looks like there has been a huge effort on the part of many big corporate type GOPers to make sure asbestos does not cause major economic strife for a large portion of U.S. industry. Much of which is the backbone of the U.S. military industrial complex.

It sickens me the length people will go to protect money and allow people to suffer generation after generation.

[Yupster]

121. Agree arwalden

It bothers me sometimes that I read such wrong information here usually on the topics of history and economics. I'm an old ex-teacher and I try to correct the most glaring ignorance. A lot of it I figure is just young people and even if they have their history or economics completely backwards, at least they're interested in the topics and I should encourage that.

But this poll is even more disturbing. It suggests not youth or ignorance, but a detachment from reality, and if this poll is to be believed, it is the prevailing view on DU.

[seemslikeadream]

126. Could you point me to some of those

correcting glaring ignorances, that is?

[happydreams]

136. Good question SLAD. Let's see if we get an answer.

:hi:

[Yupster]

142. So now I have to search the archives for examples?

That's a burden, but I'll spend a little time. You guys could do it yourselves too, but I'll take a ittle time.

Here's one example from not too long ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2091135#2091396

and here's another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2034490

[happydreams]

195. Looks like yer tootin' your own horn to me. How about

specifically showing, based upon the oodles of information to the contrary, how believing Wellstone was murdered is "divorced from reality".

[paparush]

84. He was the victime of a Karl Rove Special....

[timtom]

87. I voted "yes"

I only wish there were a much stronger affirmative choice.

I read through this thread to the post just above this one, just to look at the opinions offered.

My conclusion is this: I don't see how anyone can believe it was anything BUT murder in the face of all the anomalies and -- once again -- secrecy surrounding this.

And, I am convinced to the very marrow of my bones that the looniest tinfoil hat position of all is the one that posits that there is no conspiracy.

There most certainly is.

[Dinger]

88. Not A Doubt In My Mind. I Suggest You Read "American Assassination,

The Strange Death of Paul Wellstone."

[Darkhawk32]

89. I believe they did the same to Mel Carnahan of Missouri. n/t

[novalib]

90. Absolutely

Paul Wellstone spoke truth to power.

He was a threat to the thugs in power.

The thugs "took care" of the problem.

[seemslikeadream]

91. environmental liabilities -- $1 BILLION

Grace told the Securities and Exchange Commission in 1998 that its liability for environmental cleanups was more than S230 million. But some EPA officials estimate the company's environmental liabilities to be "substantially greater," adding that it could be closer to $1 billion.
more
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FVP/is_22_2...


I started this really lonely battle with good friend Senator Wellstone

Sen. Murray Opposes SB 2290, Praises Dr. Bret Williams, Dr. Harvey Pass, Chris Hahn and MARF


Remarks by Senator Patty Murray on Asbestos Legislation

http://murray.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=220630

For Immediate Release: Wednesday, April 21, 2004

Mr. President, I rise today to share my serious concerns with the asbestos liability bill now before the Senate. As my colleagues know, this is not just another bill for me. This is something I’ve spent years learning about, educating my colleagues about, and writing legislation to address.

In fact, my work on asbestos started 3 years ago this very month, when I asked the Senate HELP Committee to hold a hearing on asbestos exposure in the workplace. I started this as a really lonely battle with good friend Senator Wellstone. We held press conferences, and it seemed like no one came. Senator Baucus and Senator Cantwell were with us, but it was a very lonely fight.

That’s why today it is so great to watch my colleagues like Senator Daschle, Senator Reid, Senator Dayton and Senator Leahy moving this discussion to such a productive level. They have taken the time to listen to victims, and I think that if everyone did we’d have a much more balanced bill before us today.

I’m pleased that after all these years of working with victims, family members, and doctors -- the full Senate is now engaged in a debate about asbestos.

I am also pleased that many of the things I have been fighting for have been included in this legislation. This bill includes the ban on asbestos that I first introduced two years ago. That is an important acknowledgement of what I told the Judiciary Committee last June, "If Congress is going to prevent any future lawsuits, then Congress must try to prevent any more asbestos casualties, by banning the use of asbestos."

So I am pleased by some of the progress in this bill, but I am also deeply disturbed by what this bill will do to people whose lives have been torn apart by asbestos, to future victims, to family members, and to average Americans who are being exposed to deadly asbestos everyday without even knowing it.

After listening to victims, hearing their stories, and looking them in the eye, there is no way I could vote for this inadequate and unbalanced bill.

I’m Standing Up for Many

As I’ve learned about asbestos over the past three years, I have been troubled by the duplicity of some companies, by the negligence of our own government, and by the absolute horror that asbestos inflicts on people. But throughout this process, I have also been touched by the commitment and optimism of victims. Some of them realize it’s too late for them, but they want to make sure that no other American goes through the horror they have experienced.

After working with them, I know I am not just standing here on the Senate floor as a single Senator. I’m standing here on behalf of all of the people I have been honored to meet and stand with over the past three years.

I’m standing here on behalf of people like Brian Harvey, Gayla Benefield, Bret Williams, Ralph Busch, Marv Sather, and George Biekkola. They were all exposed to asbestos through no fault of their own.

I’m standing here on behalf of family members of asbestos victims. People like Sue Vento, the wife the late Congressman Bruce Vento of Minnesota, Sue Harvey, and Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, the son of Navy hero Elmo Zumwalt.

I’m standing here on behalf of doctors who have labored to save their patients against a merciless killer. Doctors like Michael Harbut, Alan Whitehouse, and Harvey Pass, who not only provided medical care, but worked to raise awareness and call for needed research.

I’m standing here on behalf of public health leaders like Dr. Richard Lemen, the former Assistant Surgeon General of the United States, Dr. Phil Landrigan, and people like Andrew Schneider and Barry Castleman – who have worked to warn the public about these dangers.

And, I’m standing here on behalf of researchers and advocates. People like Chris Hahn of the Mesothelima Applied Research Foundation and advocates at the Environmental Working Group.

All of these people have stood with me at press conferences and have testified before Senate hearings calling for us to help the victims and to ban asbestos. We have a real obligation to them, and I’m standing here on the Senate floor today to make sure the Senate does right by people who have been wronged.

George Biekkola

Let me share one of their voices with you. In July 2001, the HELP committee held that hearing I requested on Workplace Safety and Asbestos Exposure. One of the witnesses was Mr. George Biekkola of Michigan, a World War II veteran and a community leader who helped bring a hockey rink to the children of his community.

Those of us who were at that hearing three years ago will never forget what he said. He broke down several times as he read his statement, but his message was clear. He told us that he had spent 30 years working at the Cleveland Cliff Iron Company in Michigan. He operated a hard rock drill and was exposed to asbestos dust. He was forced to retire at the age of 60 because asbestos had scarred his lungs and reduced his lung capacity by one-third.

At that hearing he told us, quote, "I thought I’d be spending my retirement traveling out West with my wife, hunting deer up in the mountains. But today, I can’t." He said that he couldn’t exert himself because his heart was weak and that he had to be careful because a simple case of pneumonia could kill him.

He told us, "This isn’t how I thought I’d be spending my retirement, but when I think about the other guys I worked with -- I guess I came out lucky."

He said, "I’m here today to tell you my story so that maybe someone else working in a mine or a brake shop or a factory won’t lose the things I have lost."

He concluded his statement with these words. "Senators, please make sure that what happened to me won’t happen to anyone else . . . Workers like me are counting on you to protect us. Please don’t let us down."

Mr. President, I’m sad to report that George Biekkola died two weeks ago today from asbestosis and mesothelioma. Until the end, he was looking out for other victims. In fact, at his funeral last Saturday, his family displayed a photograph of him testifying at that Senate hearing.

George isn’t with us today, but his words ring as loudly now as they did three years ago – Senators, don’t let us down. That is why I’ve been working on asbestos for the past three years, and that is why I cannot support this inadequate bill.

Mr. President, after all the things that Americans like George Biekkola have been through, after all they have lost, after all their families have lost, and after all they have done to protect others, I will not let them down, and that’s why I cannot support this bill.

Context

Before I turn to the specifics, I want to put this discussion in context. For decades, we’ve been pumping this poison into Americans on purpose and by accident. It’s wrecked lives, families, fortunes, and it’s been a problem for many businesses.

Asbestos is everywhere, and it’s killing us. We’ve got to stop putting this killer in products. We’ve got to stop importing products that contain asbestos. We’ve got to figure out a way to "make whole" everyone who’s been affected by this epidemic, and we need to do it in a balanced way that gives certainty and equity to both victims and companies.

This process has been an education for me because, like many Americans I thought asbestos had been banned a long time ago. In 1989, the EPA did try to ban asbestos, but that effort was overturned in a lawsuit from the asbestos industry. Ten years later in 1999, reporter Andrew Schneider and the Seattle Post-Intelligencer published articles about a disturbing trend in the small mining town of Libby, Montana. Residents there are suffering from extraordinarily high rates of asbestos related disease.

At many plants where vermiculite from Libby was processed and then shipped, waste rock left over from the expansion process was given away for free. I learned that people used this free waste rock in their yards, driveways and gardens. This picture shows Justin and Tim Jorgensen climbing on waste rock given out by Western Minerals, Inc. in St. Paul, Minnesota sometime in the 1970’s. According to W.R. Grace records, this rock contained between 2 and 10 percent tremolite asbestos. This rock produced airborne asbestos concentrations 135 times higher that OSHA’s current standard for workers. We have to do right by Justin and Tim, and those are the people I’m thinking about as I look at this bill.

I also learned that our country is far behind others. The United States remains the only industrialized country beside Canada that has not yet banned asbestos. More than 30 million pounds of asbestos are still consumed in the United States each year.

A Continuing Danger

I learned that asbestos is still found today in over 3,000 common products in the US, including baby powder, cosmetics, brake pads, pipes, hair dryers, ceiling tiles and vinyl flooring. It is still legal in 2004 to construct buildings with asbestos cement shingles and to treat them with asbestos roof coatings. It is still legal to construct new water systems using asbestos cement pipes imported from other countries. It is still legal today for cars and trucks to be made and serviced with asbestos brake pads and linings.

Workers in this country are still being exposed to dangerous levels of asbestos. According to OSHA, "an estimated 1.3 million employees in construction and general industry face significant asbestos exposures on the job."

Washington State Impact

Asbestos has taken a particularly large toll on the people of my state. According to a recent report by the Environmental Working Group, King County has the fourth-highest number of deaths related to asbestos in the country. Three other counties – Kitsap (24th), Pierce (28th) and Snohomish (52nd) all rank in the top 100 for asbestos-related deaths. Overall, Washington state ranks eighth in asbestos-related deaths nationwide.

Just last week in Spokane, Washington our state Department of Health announced that 100 former workers at a vermiculite factory likely inhaled deadly asbestos fibers and should seek advice from their doctors.

They also warned that the children and spouses who lived with these workers could become ill from particles that were carried home with loved ones on clothing, skin and in hair. Given the known dangers of this mineral, we should all be asking - why are we still using it? Why are we still adding it to products on purpose where there are perfectly acceptable substitutes?

My Work on Asbestos

Americans in every walk of life and in every corner of this country have been exposed, and we’ve got to protect them. That’s why I’ve worked to do a series of things over the past few years. On June 18, 2002, I introduced the Ban Asbestos in America Act. I reintroduced this bill again last May as Senate Bill number 1115. I want to thank all the Senators who have cosponsored my bill: Senators Baucus, Boxer, Cantwell, Daschle, Dayton, Durbin, Feingold, Feinstein, Hollings, Jeffords, Lautenberg, Leahy and Reid.

I’ve pushed the EPA to warn homeowners about the dangers of Zonolite insulation, which today is in the attics of 35 million homes, schools and businesses. I’ve urged the EPA to warn brake mechanics about the deadly asbestos dust they are exposed to on the job. I’ve asked OSHA to increase its efforts to enforce existing regulations that attempt to protect automobile brake mechanics.

I’ve shared my concerns with legislators in Canada, the country that is the largest source of America’s asbestos imports. I testified at a hearing on Libby, Montana, and I testified before the Judiciary Committee last July.

Asbestos liability is a real problem. It’s a problem for victims, and it’s a problem for companies. We need a balanced solution. Unfortunately, this bill falls short in 6 ways.

6 Problems with this Bill

First, it is unfair to victims because the awards are too small – even smaller than many would get if they were allowed a day in court.

Second, it could lock future victims out of getting help because the trust fund is inadequate.

Third, it keeps Americans in the dark about the dangers of asbestos. It does not include the education campaign that we know is needed and that I have been pushing for over the past three years.

Fourth, it falls short on research, tracking and treatment for asbestos diseases.

Fifth, it makes family members jump through too many restrictive hurdles.

Sixth it allows insurance companies to place liens on the awards that family members receive - unfairly reducing the award they deserve and treating them much differently that other federal compensation programs.

Let me discuss each of those in detail.

1. Awards Are Too Small

First, the awards are too small. Many people who have had their lives torn apart by asbestos will actually do worse under this bill than they would in court. For example, awards for lung cancer victims who have more than 15 years of exposure to asbestos are limited to $25,000 - $75,000, even though most victims will die within a year. Victims with asbestosis who have lost 20% to 40% of their breathing capacity – many who will be disabled for life – will receive only $85,000. That is far less than their lost wages and medical costs. This bill gives them less than they deserve. At the same time, it blocks the courthouse door to victims who have staggering medical bills, lost wages and other damages. I don’t see how Congress can leave asbestos victims worse off than they are today, but that’s what this bill would do.

2. The Trust Fund is Too Small

Second, the trust fund is too small to compensate all victims, but that is just one of the problems with this trust fund. I believe a successful trust fund would provide fair and adequate compensation to all victims and would bring reasonable financial certainty to defendant companies and insurers. To do that, the trust fund must include four things: fair award values, appropriate medical criteria, adequate funding, and fast processing.

The system for processing claims must allow victims to get prompt payments without the complications, time and expense of a traditional lawsuit. Unfortunately, the trust fund in this bill falls far short of what is needed. I have already discussed how the award values are unfair.

In addition, the trust fund is not adequately funded. In fact, the trust fund in this bill has been slashed dramatically from the original Hatch legislation. In the Judiciary Committee’s bill, the trust fund was $153 billion. But in this bill, the trust fund has been slashed by over $40 billion.

Now, the trust fund didn’t just shrink on its own. It was reduced after closed-door negotiations that included only one side – the defendant companies and the insurance industry. It was not based on the actual needs of victims. Instead, it was based on what insurers and businesses were willing to pay. This one-sided agreement reduced the funding provided in S. 1125 by more than $40 billion. Making matters worse, an additional $10 billion in contingent funds does not become available for 24 years. The United States Senate should not adopt a policy of adjusting award values just to meet an arbitrary and artificial limit reached in a backroom with only one side present.

Not only was this figure arrived at in an unfair way, but it’s clear that it is not enough to meet the needs of current and future asbestos victims. The Congressional Budget Office has estimated the cost of this bill at $134 billion. This bill only provides $109 billion – so there is a significant shortfall already.

But there is very good reason to believe that the shortfall will be even larger. Recent claims in the Manville trust shows much higher than expected claims for many asbestos diseases. Those claims also show that recent mortality and morbidity data increase the likelihood that the number of asbestos related diseases and related claims will exceed current estimates.

If this fund becomes insolvent, it will leave victims without the help they need. Because of that possibility, last year, Senators inserted a number of protections during the Judiciary Committee mark-up.

Important Protections Were Removed

Tragically, the bill before us today throws away those carefully-crafted, bipartisan protections.

For example, we had protections for victims in case the trust fund became insolvent. Those protections in the Biden amendment were stripped from this bill.

We had protections that guaranteed that asbestos victims would preserve their legal rights until the trust fund is operational. That’s important because if this bill becomes law, it will end up in court, and there will be no mechanism for victims and their families to get help while this law is tied up in court. We solved that problem with the Feinstein amendment, but again -- those protections were stripped from this bill.

So overall this trust fund is inadequate. If we are going to lock the courthouse doors to victims, we’ve got to be 100 percent certain that the trust fund will have enough money to cover all of the 600,000 current claims -- and the thousands more that may be filed later. This is especially important because asbestos diseases have a very long latency period – often decades long – making it hard for us to predict today who will need help in the future.

If we pass this inadequate trust fund, my constituents – and hundreds of thousands of other Americans -- will be left out in the cold with only the faded memories of their loved ones to carry them through this tragic ordeal.

3. No Public Education Campaign

My third concern with this bill is that it keeps Americans in the dark about the dangers of asbestos exposure. This bill completely drops the education campaign that was in both of my asbestos bills. One of the reasons why asbestos takes such a deadly toll is because people are unaware that they are being exposed it.

Ralph Busch of Spokane

Ralph Busch exposed himself and his wife to asbestos when he renovated his home. He never knew about the dangers until he happened to read a story in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. Today, his dream house is abandoned, his credit is ruined, and his health is a constant worry. Ralph Busch did not do anything wrong. He couldn’t have known about the danger of Zonolite insulation. There is no way that Ralph Busch could have known that by buying and renovating an old house he would eventually expose his family to dangerous levels of asbestos.

We must make sure others do know about this public health risk by providing additional resources to educate the American public about the dangers of worksite and home exposures to products that contain asbestos.

We must also provide safety information to homeowners on what they can do to prevent asbestos exposures at home, particularly in the attic and basement.

Workers Unaware of Dangers

In addition to homeowners, many workers are exposed to asbestos on the job. Often they are not aware of the danger, and they don’t have the protective equipment they need.

I am heartened to hear that EPA, ATSDR and NIOSH are now proactively reaching out to consumers and workers to warn them to stay away from vermiculite attic insulation. But, I am very concerned that the EPA, prodded by a request from the law firm of the former acting agency administrator, is considering revising its "Guidance for Preventing Asbestos Disease Among Auto Mechanics" to convey the false impression that brake repair work is no longer a risk.

Clearly, any effort by the EPA to downplay these risks flies in the face of current Congressional intent regarding the inherent health problems with exposure to asbestos in the workplace. I sincerely hope that EPA will not bow to the pressure of the industry and in fact strengthen its guidance for brake mechanics.

4. It Does Not Do Enough for Research, Tracking and Treatment

My fourth concern is that this bill does not do enough for research, tracking and treatment.

I want to thank the Senator Hatch for including some modest resources in his latest version of the bill – which should be used to establish mesothelioma research and treatment centers around the country. Yesterday I was pleased to hear Senator Hatch say that he would be willing to explore additional funding for asbestos research and treatment centers. These centers will be critical as the medical community works to develop new treatments and protocols for the variety of deadly cancers and diseases that exposure to asbestos brings to workers and their families.

Unfortunately, not included in S. 2290 are the resources needed to track the victims of mesothelioma and other asbestos causing cancers, and to conduct additional research about the harmful effects of this deadly material.

These are areas that doctors and other experts have told me time and again we must invest in. I heard from some of those doctors last month at a press conference I held, which Senator Reid and Senator Dayton attended. At the press conference, Dr. Bret Williams of North Carolina said, "As a doctor, a cancer patient, a husband and father, I am asking my government to take a stand. Fix the problem. Give us hope. Fund a mesothelioma research program. Please invest in a cure."

A surgeon from Detroit, Dr. Harvey Pass, told us that progress on asbestos diseases requires funding, and he said that funding, "remains absolutely insufficient to set up the type of collaborative approaches that already exist with lung cancer, breast cancer, prostate cancer, and colon cancer."

So the fourth problem with this bill is its inadequate support for research, tracking and treatment of asbestos diseases.

5. Treats Family Members Unfairly

My fifth concern with this bill is the way it treats family members. Under this bill, family members of victims will be forced to jump through an additional series of hoops, reducing the likelihood they will ever receive an award.

Susan Lawes & Spokane Families

Let’s remember, these family members have lost their loved ones. In many cases they are vulnerable themselves because they came into contact with asbestos fibers through a family member. Take the case of Susan Lawes. Her father was a pipe fitter and was exposed to asbestos on the job. When he came home from work, asbestos fibers were still on his clothes. He’d walk through the door after the end of a long day and give his daughter a hug. Last month, Susan was diagnosed with an asbestos disease. As she told me, I am literally dying because I hugged my dad.

Susan and so many people like her are not treated fairly under this bill. The children and the spouses of workers should not have to prove five years of exposure to asbestos from their husbands and fathers as they would under this bill. They also should not be forced to appear before a special Physicians Review Board in order to determine their medical condition and whether they are eligible for a compensatory award.

It’s the same for people in Spokane, Washington. Spokane is one of the 22 sites that EPA has determined is still contaminated. Why are we forcing these innocent victims of take-home asbestos exposure to jump through extraordinary hoops to determine their eligibility for an award?

So my fifth concern is the unfair way this bill treats family members – making them jump through hurdles that reduce the chance they will ever get the help they need.

6. Allows Insurance Companies to Reduce Victims’ Awards

Finally, this bill allows insurance companies to reduce any awards that victims actually receive – something that is not found in similar federal plans.

This bill allows insurance companies to place liens on the awards that victims and family members receive.

I find it unconscionable that health insurance companies and other entities can recoup their costs by placing liens on the awards family members receive in compensation for their loss of a father, a husband, a son or a daughter.

These workers were often the only breadwinners in their households, but this bill tells their surviving family members that they can be sued by their health insurance provider for a substantial part of an award – an award that as I’ve shown may already be inadequate.

What’s especially disturbing is other federal compensation program do not allow this type of action, but for some reason, asbestos victims are being given fewer protections. The awards provided to victims in federal compensation programs like the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act, the Energy Employees Occupational Illness Compensation Program and the Ricky Ray Hemophiliac Relief Fund Act are not subject to liens by workers compensation insurers. I don’t know why the authors want to treat asbestos victims differently, but I do know that it is not fair, and it’s one of the reasons why I can not support this bill.

So Mr. President, in the end, this bill falls far short of what victims deserve.

The awards are too small.
The trust fund is inadequate.
It fails to educate Americans about the dangers of asbestos.
It falls short on research, tracking and treatment for asbestos diseases.
It puts unfair burdens on family members.
It allows insurance companies to reduce a victim’s award.
I’ve been fighting on this for years, and it makes no sense that we could squander this moment with a bill that is so inadequate. George and Gayla and Ralph and Marv and Bret and Brian all deserve so much better, and I will continue to fight for them.

Mr. President, regardless of what happens with this bill, the one thing we must do is ban asbestos, and I assure my colleagues I will keep fighting for that. I do want to pass a law. We need a real solution. I don’t want companies going bankrupt. I don’t want victims going without the help they need. I still think we can do it, and I will continue to fight for a balanced and fair bill that will do right by victims across the country. We really have an obligation to them and their families. I’ve been fighting for them for three years, and no matter what happens this week, I’m not going to stop now.

*** POSTED APRIL 22, 2004 ***

http://www.mesothel.com/pages/murray_s2290_pag.htm

[seemslikeadream]

93. W.R. Grace - ASBESTOS - Dick Cheney

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:gyZmO6_dELkJ:epw.senate.gov/107th/Murray_062002.htm+wellstone+epa+report+asbestos&hl=en

Asbestos-Containing Products Risk Reduction Act of 2002

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash.

Legislative Summary
.....

Over the years, asbestos has taken a staggering toll on our country. We have recently been reminded of the dangers posed by asbestos because of concerns about asbestos exposure from the dust and debris caused by the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers. Had this country acted swiftly to ban asbestos when public health evidence about its dangers first emerged, the Towers would not have been built with any asbestos at all. Now we’ll need to wait several decades to determine whether asbestos exposures in New York will cause asbestosis, lung cancer and mesothelioma for first responders and residents.

W.R. Grace files for bankruptcy
W.R. Grace files for bankruptcy
Taxpayers may get cleanup bill for asbestos contamination

Tuesday, April 3, 2001

By ANDREW SCHNEIDER
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT



Because of the filing, taxpayers may get stuck with millions of dollars for cleaning up sites contaminated by the 150-year-old company.

Grace President Paul Norris said yesterday that his company has received more than 325,000 asbestos personal-injury claims, which have already cost the company nearly $2 billion.

The federal government has done health screening on 6,114 people or who live or lived in or near Libby. Analysis of the first 1,067 examinations showed that 30 percent of the people had signs of asbestos-related disease. With it often taking 20 years or more for the disease to become apparent, no one is willing to guess how many people will be sickened because of the exposure to asbestos in Libby and other sites that processed the vermiculite.

It is estimated that hospitalization, oxygen, medication and home care can cost a person between $300,000 to $500,000 during the course of the illness. Grace is the sixth major company to cite asbestos claims as their reasons for filing chapter 11 since January. Twenty-six companies have made such filings since 1982.

Most of the hundreds of thousands of pending asbestos suits are filed against multiple defendants. The litigation will often list 10, 20 or more corporations that either produced asbestos or used it in products they manufactured.


The Environmental Protection Agency is conducting investigations at 55 sites throughout the country where Grace ran expansion plants that turned the vermiculite ore into insulation and garden and construction products. Sixteen other sites have been identified as being contaminated enough to need cleanup.

"We budgeted between $14 and $16 million for this year, and it now becomes a problem of getting that money," Peronard said. "It's looking more and more like taxpayers will pick up what Grace drops."
EPA has been working closely with forensic accountants in the Justice Department to see whether the company has moved its assets to other, newly formed corporations.

more
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/grace03.shtml


OMB and EPA squash the EPA Report
December 29, 2002
Bush administration squashes EPA public health warning that insulation in 15 to 35 million U.S. homes is probably contaminated with an extremely lethal form of asbestos.
According to the Barre-Montpelier Times Argus and Wichita Eagle, the Bush administration has squashed the release of an EPA public health warning that insulation in 15 to 35 million U.S. homes is probably contaminated with an extremely lethal form of asbestos. The warning was originally planned to be released in April 2002, along with a declaration of a public health emergency in Libby, Montana, where ore from a W.R. Grace vermiculite mine was contaminated with an extremely lethal asbestos fiber called tremolite that has killed or sickened thousands of miners and their families. Shipping records from W.R. Grace show that at least 15.6 billion pounds of vermiculite ore was shipped from Libby to 750 plants and factories throughout North America, with between a third and half ending up in insulation called Zonolite that was used in millions of homes, businesses and schools from the 1940s through the 1990s.

In early April 2002, the U.S. EPA had a public health warning ready to go: News releases had been written and rewritten, and lists of governors to call and politicians to notify had been compiled. But the declaration was never made - just days before EPA was set to make the declaration, the warning was squashed by the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB), even though the EPA had already greatly watered down the warning at the direction of the OMB.

Both OMB and EPA acknowledge that the OMB was actively involved in quashing the warning, but neither agency would discuss how or why. EPA’s chief spokesman Joe Martyak said, "Contact OMB for the details," while OMB spokeswoman Amy Call said, "These questions will have to be addressed to the EPA." Both agencies have also refused requests under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to provide documents to and from OMB about the asbestos warning.
http://www.eces.org/articles/000256.php

[seemslikeadream]

94. 3 WR Grace employees were killed

In the recent NC plane crash, 3 WR Grace employees were killed: Joseph Spiak, general manager of specialty vermiculite (including the highly toxic asbestos containing Zonolite), Paul Stidham, director of environmental health and safety, and Richard Lyons, global health and safety manager.

From:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/080400-02.htm

Although Halliburton is an enormous operation with more than 100,000 employees in 120 countries, it is a relatively small player when it comes to asbestos litigation, at least when compared with W.R. Grace & Co., GAF and the Johns Manville Corp. Nevertheless, Halliburton has spent $99 million to settle or dispose of 129,650 asbestos suits, according to company records.

From:
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/ADD5A0C8A02AD67B86256C9C006CC522


WR Grace Asbestos containing insulation was used at the World Trade Center (WTC). James Cintani stated that Grace Vermiculite did not contain asbestos. Unfortunately this was not true this material was 2-5 percent asbestos. 100,000 80 pound bags of this vermiculite was used in the WTC. In addition 9,150 pounds of MonoKote 3 was used at the WTC. Monokote 3 was about 20 percent asbestos. Therefore in total about 201,183 pounds of pure asbestos fiber from Grace was used in the WTC.

From:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/...

White House budget office thwarts EPA warning on asbestos-laced insulation

The Environmental Protection Agency was on the verge of warning millions of Americans that their attics and walls might contain asbestos-contaminated insulation. But, at the last minute, the White House intervened, and the warning has never been issued.

The announcement to warn the public was expected in April. It was to accompany a declaration by the EPA of a public health emergency in Libby, Mont. In that town near the Canadian border, ore from a vermiculite mine was contaminated with an extremely lethal asbestos fiber called tremolite that has killed or sickened thousands of miners and their families. Ore from the Libby mine was shipped across the nation and around the world, ending up in insulation called Zonolite that was used in millions of homes, businesses and schools across America. Zonolite insulation was sold throughout North America from the 1940s through the 1990s. Almost all of the vermiculite used in the insulation came from the Libby mine, last owned by W.R. Grace & Co.

Interviews and documents show that just days before the EPA was set to make the declaration, the plan was thwarted by the White House Office of Management and Budget, which had been told of the proposal months earlier. Former EPA administrator William Ruckelshaus, who worked for Presidents Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan, called the decision not to notify homeowners of the dangers posed by Zonolite insulation "the wrong thing to do." "When the government comes across this kind of information and doesn't tell people about it, I just think it's wrong, unconscionable, not to do that," he said. " What right does the government have to conceal these dangers? It just doesn't make sense."

The question about what to do about Zonolite insulation was not the only asbestos-related issue in which the White House intervened. In January, in an internal EPA report on problems with the agency's much-criticized response to the terrorist attacks in New York City, a section on "lessons learned" said there was a need to release public health and emergency information without having it reviewed and delayed by the White House."

The EPA's files are filled with studies documenting the toxicity of tremolite, how even minor disruptions of the material by moving boxes, sweeping the floor or doing repairs in attics can generate asbestos fibers. Most of those who have studied the needle-sharp tremolite fibers in the Libby ore consider them far more dangerous than other asbestos fibers. In October, the EPA team leading the cleanup of lower Manhattan after the attacks of Sept. 11 went to Libby to meet with Peronard and his crew. The EPA had reversed an early decision and announced that it would be cleaning asbestos from city apartments. (NOTE: THIS STUFF WAS IN THE WTC TOWERS!!!)

Peronard told the visitors from New York just how dangerous tremolite is. He talked about the hands-on research in Libby of Dr. Alan Whitehouse, a pulmonologist who had worked for NASA and the Air Force on earlier projects before moving to Spokane, Wash. "Whitehouse's research on the people here gave us our first solid lead of how bad this tremolite is," Peronard said.

Whitehouse has not only treated 500 people from Libby who are sick and dying from exposure to tremolite. The chest specialist also has almost 300 patients from Washington shipyards and the Hanford, Wash., nuclear facility who are suffering health effects from exposure to the more prevalent chrysotile asbestos. Comparing the two groups, Whitehouse has demonstrated that the tremolite from Libby is 10 times as carcinogenic as chrysotile and probably 100 times more likely to produce mesothelioma than chrysotile.

(Please read. There's much, much more here.)

From:

http://www.msnbc.com/local/pisea/102011.asp?cp1=1

Murray promises to renew push for asbestos warnings

Dec. 30 - After revelations that the Bush administration squelched public health warnings about a widely used form of insulation that contains cancer-causing asbestos, Sen. Patty Murray vowed yesterday to renew her fight for a public education campaign. Murray, D-Wash., said she will demand an explanation this week for why warnings planned last spring by the Environmental Protection Agency were called off at the last minute by high-ranking Bush administration officials.

Internal EPA documents show that about 15 million to 35 million of the nation's approximately 105 million households contain a brand of insulation known as Zonolite. Mined for decades in Libby, Mont., Zonolite contains a particularly lethal form of asbestos known as tremolite. "I just find it astounding that when this kind of information is available that can save people's lives, that this administration has decided to keep that secret and not let people know," Murray said. "Here's a health risk we can do something about."

Murray's co-sponsor, Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn., died in October in a plane crash.

W.R. Grace says the insulation is safe, and wrote a letter to the EPA in April insisting that no health warnings are necessary.

In addition to its use in insulation, the brownish-pink vermiculite was contained in garden products, cement mixtures and many other products. One of those products was as fireproofing in ceiling tiles used widely in schools and federal office buildings. Helping manufacture those tiles as a side job while in college likely gave Brian Harvey of Marysville mesothelioma, a disease caused only by exposure to asbestos. Harvey criticized the Bush administration's decision to pull the public health warning. "I have a real problem with that," Harvey said. "That I consider unforgivable."

"At the top levels of the Bush administration, they are maintaining this cloak of secrecy that I can't imagine the people who I've worked with at the EPA are very happy about," Murray said. "Hopefully, the public will start crying out for Congress and the administration to do something about this."

[seemslikeadream]

98. The NTSB report of the crash that killed the WR Grace employees

Joseph Spiak, general manager of specialty vermiculite (including the highly toxic asbestos containing Zonolite)
Paul Stidham, director of environmental health and safety
Richard Lyons, global health and safety manager

http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030110X00049&key=1


The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
the airplane's loss of pitch control during take-off. The loss of pitch control resulted from the incorrect rigging of the elevator system compounded by the airplane's aft center of gravity, which was substaintially aft of the certified aft limit.

Contributing to the cause of the accident were:

(1) Air Midwest's lack of oversight of the work being performed at the Huntington, West Virginia, maintenance station;

(2) Air Midwest's maintenance procedures and documentation;

(3) Air Midwest's weight and balance program at the time of the accident;

(4) the Raytheon Aerospace quality assurance inspector's failure to detect the incorrect rigging of the elevator control system;

(5) the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) average weight assumptions in its weight and balance program guidance at the time of the accident; and

(6) the FAA's lack of oversight of Air Midwest's maintenance program and its weight and balance program.


The full narrative:

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0401.pdf

The FDR was sent to the Safety Board’s laboratory for readout and evaluation. The
fire and impact damage to the exterior of the FDR prevented the data from being extracted
in the normal manner. The solid-state memory module, which was in good condition, was
extracted from the crash-protected memory case, and a new connector was attached to the
module. The module was then inserted into a surrogate F-1000 FDR, and the data were
downloaded and decompressed using the manufacturer’s software. About 95 hours of data
were recorded on the FDR, including data from the accident flight. The FDR powered up
for the accident flight just before 0825:00, and the last valid data were recorded just
after 0847:28.

The elevator control cables generally had numerous bends and kinks. Two of the
elevator AND cable’s seven spirally wound strands were completely broken and
unwound, and one strand was partially broken and unwound. (These strands were located
near the trailing edge of the wing, where the fuselage had folded toward the right wing
tip.) The unwound sections of the cable were examined at the Safety Board’s Materials
Laboratory, and no evidence of fatigue cracking or a preexisting condition was found.

The elevator trim tab control wheel was intact and was attached in the cockpit. The
pitch trim appeared to be near the full AND position. The pitch trim control cables were
broken. The control cables were in the correct orientation. The left and right drums had
their respective cables wrapped around to the middle position.

[stepnw1f]

92. Murdered by the Filthy GOP

And just look at how their media pundits covered his funeral. Sick...

[arwalden]

104. We Laugh At Freepers For This Same Type Of Hate-Driven Paranoia...

... and disregard for logic and facts. I'll bet that they are getting a good laugh out of this thread.

Me? I just shake my head in disbelief and embarrassment.

[stevietheman]

185. Totally agreed... the lack of critical thinking is astounding!

It's all a matter of people wanting to believe he was assassinated, and there's where most of it comes from. Wellstone was a great guy, but too many people are putting him on a pedestal, as if he was more than human and immune to the normal failures of small planes.

[Skinner]

106. C'mon people.

Get a grip. Why must everything be a conspiracy? Accidents happen.

I want very much to believe that this poll has been freeped to make us all look like morons. But the comments in this thread make it pretty clear that we are fully capable of making ourselves look foolish without any help from the freepers.

[Armstead]

108. Thanks for saying that

It is really annoying how often we "know" something without any evidence.

People "knew" Wellstone had been murdered within minutes after the announcement. It was one of the unfortunate flame wars on DU at the time.

Jumping to conclusions before there is any real evidence is a habit we engage in too frequently. It's the left-wing equivalent of assuming that Hillary had Vince foster murdered.

[Junkdrawer]

110. That's right. These ghouls are just not capable of killing their enemies..

:sarcasm:

[Skinner]

111. Your response can help me make my point.

Basically, you are accusing me of not recognizing the possiblity that he might have been murdered. Which seems to me to be a pretty weak way of making your case. Particularly because I did not give any indication with regard to whether I think it is possible.

Are there some people who are "capable" of killing their enemies? Of course there are. Is it possible that Wellstone was murdered? Of course it is possible. Can we think of a possible motive for Wellstone to be murdered? Sure we can.

But that all means very little. Just because something is possible does not make it true.

What matters is evidence. Lacking any evidence of foul play, there is no reason to believe that this was anything but a freak accident.

[Junkdrawer]

112. The circumstantial evidence was:

1.) The timing was the EXACT day that precluded his name from staying on the ballot.

2.) It appeared that all power was lost on the plane. No pilot SOS, it just fell from the sky.

More here:

http://www.assassinationscience.com/American_Assassination.html

But, you're right. In the end, lacking conclusive evidence, it's a judgement call. My call is that it was a hit.

BTW: The "Conspiracy Theory" putdown grates many of us as much as "accusing me of not recognizing the possiblity that he might have been murdered" seems to grate you.

[Skinner]

113. Apparently you don't get it.

Just because something is "lacking conclusive evidence" (whatever that means) does not mean that all possible explanations are equally valid. It's like saying, "Nobody knows for sure, so I'm going to say it was a death ray from outer space."

BTW: Your implied "accusing me of not recognizing the possiblity that he might have been murdered" doesn't grate me at all. I find it to be a mildly amusing indication of the weakness of your own case.

[Junkdrawer]

114. Funny that you would use "a death ray from outer space." to describe...

EMP/EMF weapons.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/sl298.txt

[Skinner]

116. I was using "death ray from outer space" as a ridiculous hypothetical.

It was an absurd over-the-top joke intended to make a point. The fact that nobody knows for sure does not mean that all possibilities are equally valid.

I was not saying that people who believe Wellstone was murdered think he was murdered by a death ray from outer space. And I was not using the words "death ray from outer space" to mean "EMP weapons."

This discussion is completely absurd.

[rman]

171. So it's ridiculous, yet possible?

not the death ray from space but Wellstone assasination as such.

[Swamp Rat]

161. It WAS a death ray from outer space!!!

:hide:



:D

[rman]

169. Skinner, this is not about "making a case" -

the poll is about what people believe. You yourself seem to think it is possible Wellstone was assassinated, which means it isn't as ridiculous as you seem to imply.
Though some are making the case - what about those FBI agents at the scene (who weren't officially there)?
I suppose you realize many people think election fraud CT is equally ridiculous.

[DemonFighterLives]

177. It ia just a little hard to get the evidence

With the FBI on the scene scrubbing the evidence and Carol Carmoody on the TV stating her conclusions before the NTSB investigation.
You can believe what you want Skinner, but comparing us to freepers is below you.
:dem:

[Beausoir]

135. God..thank you, Skinner. A voice of sanity.

I live in northern Minnesota. I remember that day. I remember the weather and the ice and fog and freezing drizzle.
This was nothing more than a very tragic accident.

This is really ridiculous and does nothing to help win back Paul's seat. Concentrate on defeating Norm...not on some ridiculous conspiracy theory.

[arwalden]

140. Oy! Remember Those "Man-made Tsunami" Conspiracy Threads?

And all the conspiracy kooks who were convinced that the 2004 Christmas Tsunami was caused by a strategically placed nuclear bomb.

It was pretty sad.

[fujiyama]

163. Those were by far some of the most entertaining threads

I've read.

Unfortunately, it even got itself some coverage on the NYT. I have to say, those were some nutty threads. HAARP! HAARP!

IMO speculating that this was a political assassination isn't the same as actually believing the government is capable of manipulating plate tectonics, but I'm disappointed that so few are willing to just use "belief" and "gut feeling" as "evidence" that this was a murder. While there have been some awfully suspicious Dem senators' deaths (Carnahan and Welstone), that's not nearly enough to conclude they were assasinations. Also, while Welstons must have driven conservatives insane, he really wasn't that powerful. There were no indications of him being a major threat or a prospective presidential candidate. Hell, by that time, it was clear Kerry was running for president. They could have offed him...or Kucinich, Bob Graham, or Edwards, or...any number of other political opponents.

Planes crash. Accidents happen. It's unfortunate and very sad.

[rman]

170. In this case Skinner to thinks it is possible Wellstone was assassinated -

which means he thinks this CT isn't as ridiculous as the obviously ridiculous Bush-tsunami CT.
Though of course there are people who want us to believe all CTs are equally ridiculous.

[arwalden]

173. Oh Brother! He Also Said That A "Death Ray" From Space Is Possible...

But just because something is physically "possible" doesn't mean that it's likely. Nor does the "possibility" of something outweigh actual evidence of what actually happened... not to mention common sense and logic... which are two things that the conspiracy theorists seem to be in great need of.

This is the same type of nonsensical logic that the paranoid "chemtrail" kooks use. Because something is within the realm of all things physically possible, then certainly is must be "true", eh? :eyes:

<< which means he thinks this CT isn't as ridiculous as the obviously ridiculous Bush-tsunami CT. >>

Is *that* what it means? Really? -- Are you sure?

<< Though of course there are people who want us to believe all CTs are equally ridiculous. >>

No, not equally. Although ALL are ridiculous, some are just MORE ridiculous than others.

[DemonFighterLives]

180. And your explanations for everything are rediculous too.

So what! I'm not trying to be rude but you want to paint everything you don't believe as unbelievable.
I saw some chemtrails, so I am not so sure that dubco is not behind that as well. When pristine airspace for 40 years is one day all tracked up, I think it deserves an explanation as does Wellstones death and 911.

[arwalden]

194. Ah, So You're Also A "Chemtrail" Believer, Eh?

Well... that's pretty much all I needed to hear to know that this conversation is likely to go nowhere.

Experience shows me that it's pretty pointless to engage "chemtrail" believers (and other assorted conspiracy theorists) in any sort of rational discussion with regard to facts. For many of those folks, irrational paranoia and fear almost always precludes a willingness to engage rational thought and a critical examination of facts and actual evidence.

<< And your explanations for everything are rediculous too. >>

Everything? Really? What *ridiculous* explanations have I offered? Can you cite any please? I suppose you have some examples of this accusation. You know... evidence? Here's your chance to shine... I'll wait here while you look. :eyes:

:rofl: Yes... those pesky facts are so troublesome. Little wonder that the conspiracy theorists like to dismiss them as "planted" evidence (or the like). Reminding me of how fundie Xians frequently claim that fossils are also "planted" there to test their faith. :eyes:

Sorry, I just can't live in a fantasy world of make-believe, irrational fear, paranoia, and complete disregard for logic, facts, and evidence.

<< but you want to paint everything you don't believe as unbelievable. >>

Oh! You're kidding! -- I don't believe it! :silly:

See ya! :hi:

[DemonFighterLives]

201. It came from your goofy quote

Quote:
No, not equally. Although ALL are ridiculous, some are just MORE ridiculous than others.

--I can believe what I want and you can believe what you want. Call them chemtrails or contrails whichever you prefer. I'm just saying that pristine airspace in MN was cross hatched and clouds forming. They were not normal and never happened before in my 46 years on this planet.

Ignore me if you want, but I never considered myself as irrational. I grew up with JFK being murdered, so therefore my mind is open to all possibilities.

See ya! :hi:

[DemonFighterLives]

178. The icing never proved to be the problem

Many planes landed that day and I believe the final reason was said to be the pilots, which to me is also unbelievable and a smear on the dead men.

[daringthedevil]

109. No.

[WI_DEM]

115. It was an accident on a with limited visability and the plane went down

They were taking a chance going up as it was. I agree with Skinner not everything is a conspiracy. He was in a tough re-election fight--he might have won, but he also might have lost. Wellstone was a great man and this was a terrible loss and I think we trivalize the loss not only of him but other members of his family with this sort of thing. His surviving family has never alleged a plot to kill him and if anybody would believe so it would be them. There have been many small plane accidents and some include politicians because they often travel that way. In 1964 Ted Kennedy and Birch Bayh were seriously injured when a small plane they were traveling in went down. It happens.

[Junkdrawer]

117. No flame, but the NTSB blamed pilot error, not the weather...

...

"This tragic accident that took the lives of a respected U.S. Senator, members of his family, staff, and the flight crew, shocked us all," said NTSB Chairman Ellen G. Engleman. "It sadly and starkly points out the need for more aggressive action to improve safety in the on-demand charter industry."

Reviewing the results of the extensive investigation into this accident, NTSB Members concluded that the flight crew failed to maintain an appropriate course and speed for the approach to Eveleth and did not properly configure the airplane at the start of approach procedures.

"During the later stages of the approach," the Board said, the flight crew "failed to monitor the airplane's airspeed and allowed it to decrease to a dangerously low level (as low as about 50 knots below the company's recommended approach speed) and to remain below the recommended approach speed for about 50 seconds." The airplane then entered a stall from which it did not recover.

The Board judged that while cloud cover might have prevented the flight crew from seeing the airport, icing did not affect the airplane's performance during the descent. Cockpit instrument readings on course alignment and airspeed should have prompted the flight crew to execute a go-around.

...

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/uscongress/a/wellstonentsb.htm

It was Wolf Blitzer and other MSM talking heads that kept pushing the icing story.

[Jakey]

128. You can't "blame" Mother Nature...

for the Wellstone crash but the "weather" was a significant factor in setting the scenario for this accident. Had it not been for the existing marginal weather conditions, the crew would not have been in a position to botch a most challenging non-precision approach. Because the NTSB ruled out icing as a "factor" in no way suggests that "weather" wasn't an integral and important factor in this accident, though it was certainly not the "cause". A competent crew could have and should have flown this procedure safely to a successful missed approach but they were behind the "power curve" even prior to commencing their descent for final approach.

While there are weather considerations that can be "causative" (such as microbursts that can make continued controlled flight impossible), this case isn't one of them.

[dflprincess]

204. My uncle was a pilot

and no fan of Wellstone. But he surprised me when he said "pilot error" is like a SIDS diagnosis. It's what they use when no other cause can be found.

[DemonFighterLives]

213. Yeah some investigation

comes up with the boilerplate conclusion.
Hi Princess! :hug:

[savemefromdumbya]

118. The small plane

this is one the usual forms they use to get rid of 'pesky' politicians.

[Yupster]

122. Yes - happens all the time to Democratic trouble-makers

In fact in just the last 20 years there was Wellstone, and Carnahan, and .... well I guess that's all there was. Unless you count Clinton killing Ron Brown to make sure he didn't sabotage Hillary's senate nomination.

[dailykoff]

123. don't forget JFK Jr. (1999) n/t

[Yupster]

125. JFK Jr was a

pesky politician?

That's quite a stretch.

[dailykoff]

146. How did the 2000 election turn out again?

I don't pretend to know what he knew or how he might have influenced that campaign but I sure know how it turned out.

[onenote]

137. and jim croce and lynryd skynrd and big bopper and buddy holly

and richie valens and otis redding and rick nelson and john denver. Oh, and don't forget the University of Evansville basketball team, and the Wichita State football team, and the US Olympic figure skating team. A lot of folks being murdered in plane crashes.

:sarcasm:


Here's a list of "famous" people killed in plane crashes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_by_aircraft_misadventure

onenote

[savemefromdumbya]

158. JFK jr?

[dailykoff]

190. He was putting out a political interview magazine

at the time and my guess is they were worried he'd publish something damaging like Junior's rap sheet or maybe who killed JFK, RFK, MLK, etc.

[happydreams]

138. Considering everything else these fascist swill have done

you'd be an idiot to believe Wellstone's death was an accident. He was a crucial obstruction to Bush's power. His death turned the majority of the Senate over to the Rethugs. He struck at the heart of Halliburton's corruptions.

Wellstone was a "hunted man"

Paul Wellstone is a hunted man. Minnesota's senior senator is not just another Democrat on White House political czar Karl Rove's target list, in an election year when the Senate balance of power could be decided by the voters of a single state. Rather, getting rid of Wellstone is a passion for Rove, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the special-interest lobbies that fund the most sophisticated political operation ever assembled by a presidential administration. "There are people in the White House who wake up in the morning thinking about how they will defeat Paul Wellstone," a senior Republican aide confides. "This one is political and personal for them."

That has made it political and personal for Wellstone. The man who decided to abandon a self-imposed two-term limit on his Senate service at least in part because of his determination to block Bush's conservative agenda wears the target with pride. At a moment when most Democrats are still trying to figure out how to challenge a popular President, the former college wrestler is leaping into the ring. Wellstone is not running for cover; he is running to deliver a message about politics in a state and a nation that he believes to be far more progressive than the readers of political tea leaves in Washington could begin to imagine.

"This race is going to be a case study of whether you can maintain liberal, progressive positions and win in this country in 2002," says Wellstone as he campaigns among Laotian immigrants on a sunny spring morning in St. Paul. "We're not running a race that asks people to vote for me because, as a Democrat, I will be a little more compassionate, a little better for working families and children and immigrants, than a Republican. We want to draw the lines of distinction. I'm saying that there is a big difference between the America the conservatives want and the America I want." He adds, "I don't want this to be just about me. This race has to be about basic questions of whether liberals and progressives can flourish in national politics. That means there is a lot more on the line than whether Paul Wellstone wins or loses." ...more



http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020527/nichols

[SoCalDem]

141. I do not..

Candidates who are trying to save money and who are desperately trying to get from point A to point B in a hurry, often take small planes..

Small planes crash A LOT.. add in winter weather, and it's an accident waiting to happen..

They take risks so they don't disappoint people waiting for them.. It's the same circumstance that leads people to pile into the car in horrible weather to eat a dry turkey at Mom's..Lots have accidents and persih on the way to that meal..

[grace0418]

143. I put nothing past the crazed RW. NOTHING.

What's the murder of a politician and a few family members to people who murder Iraqis and American soldiers by the thousand? Every single time I've said "They wouldn't stoop *that* low would they?" they stoop even lower.

Whether or not he actually was murdered, I no longer believe the RW is above anything.

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. I voted yes and I'm still waiting for an answer to THIS question:

"Why would all those PROGRESSIVES, who LOVED Paul Wellstone, days later, turn around and vote for a Repuke like NORM COLEMAN? No way did that happen! They stole that election.

[Yupster]

147. Why would you think they did?

Is there evidence that progressives didn't vote for Mondale?

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. Coleman supposedly won the election and Wellstone was ahead in the polls

prior to the election. Those people flipped and decided to vote for Coleman? I don't think so.

[Yupster]

160. And you think it was the progressives who switched?

Why would you think that?

Wouldn't it be more likely to be voters in the middle who switched?

[DemonFighterLives]

181. They didn't get to count Wellstone's absentee ballots and they were

not recast. Essentially many votes were tossed and with the media painting of the Wellstone memorial as too bad, too sad and the late replacement with Mondale didn't help. Mondale was cool, but a younger progressive may have done better.

[Ksec]

148. When it first happened I didnt think it was murder

but the more I see of this bunch in power and what theyre capable of, the less it looks like an accident.

[Ignacio Upton]

149. This is a load of bullshit

Wellstone was not murdered. Unfortunately pilot error was to blame for his death. Also, why would Bush have him killed? Wellstone was in a tight re-election with Norm Coleman, and could have easily lost (however, he went UP in the polls after voting against IWR.) Some have said that the Administration could not have him around as a prominent war critic, but he was only one of many Senators who were criticizing the war. Why not kill Russ Feingold or Bob Graham (who was on the Intelligence Committee and voted against the war. Two Democrats have died in plane crashes in the last six years, but Republicans have died in them in the past.

[Pryderi]

154. You did notice that Bob Graham retired, and Russ

is Jewish.

[Ignacio Upton]

155. So is Wellstone

And back in 2002 it was unknown whether or not he would retire. What does that have to do with anything??

[Pryderi]

156. Maybe Graham got the message after Wellstone was murdered.

[Ksec]

159. why?

Wellstone was the most Liberal man in Congress. His ideas were taking hold and he was making waves against the corporate government alliance. They couldnt risk allowing this man to become any more credible. He was a real threat to their plans. He exposed them.

Was it murder. I dont know, but Im not about to say there wasnt a real reason for doing so because there was.

[Ignacio Upton]

164. Wellstone, while he should be commended for being a true progressive

and a fighter against the GOP, wasn't THE most powerful and noted figure on the left. He wasn't leading a massive groundswell of people that were going to miraculously topple Bush. The Bush Administration would still have gone to war even with Wellstone alive. If he was alive it would not have made a difference in their political calculus. Rove is a manipulating, law-breaking jerk, but I can't see why he would orchestrate a well-planned assassination with a plane. Rove is usually the person confident enough in being able to defeat his opponents electorally, and Wellstone was in a tough re-election against Norm Coleman. Also, while the Wellstone Memorial (at least how the media presented it to the public in a way that helped the Republicans) hurt Mondale and helped Coleman, I don't think that Rove could have foreseen that. The conventional wisdom goes that when a political figure dies, there is usually an outpouring of public/political sympathy. Rove remembers the 2000 Missouri Senate race between Mel Carnahan and Ashcroft (remember that Ashcroft was a defeated Senator before Bush appointed him.) Carnahan and Ashcroft were neck-and-neck, and it is likely that his death in plane crash helped him beat the future whacko Attorney General.

[DemonFighterLives]

183. Not too many opposed the war

Just wanted to straighten that out.
Bush and cheney were all over this state spreading millions of dollars from outstate. They wanted goofy Coleman to win and even made(what's his name) back out of the election.

[happydreams]

197. You need to see reply #138

[Chemical Bill]

150. I believe it is possible. n/t

[robertpaulsen]

151. Murdered. Without a shadow of a doubt, in my book.

Actually, not my book. American Assassination by Jim Fetzer & Four Arrows. Buy it, you'll understand.

[Sawber1001]

153. Nope

Not one for conspiracy theories unless there is overwhelming proof (and then it's probably not a theory by then).

It's too easy to make the claim and make the theory fit any new evidence to disprove it.

On edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to post it here. I meant for it to go to the original post.

[eridani]

165. Where's the "I don't know" option?

Easy to suspect, much harder to nail down real evidence.

[eridani]

166. For all the "no" voters--

--what about those FBI agents? It's true that it could have been an accident, but how do you explain the FBI people with precognition?

[stevietheman]

192. It's a factoid, but not proof of anything.

NTSB usually races to scenes like this. Perhaps an FBI unit happened to be closer and thus they were dispatched.

Or perhaps, since this was a U.S. Senator, it's the FBI that is normally sent to such a scene first.

I see nothing necessarily out of the ordinary here.

And nobody in this thread has yet to present any plausible motive, nor convince me that Wellstone was somehow above "dumb luck" in the multiple use of small planes in criss-crossing his state in a very active campaign.

[eridani]

207. The FBI was not closer, though, not at all

In order to get to the scene of the crash they would have had to leave before the plane did and head straight there. I'd say that being psychic or driving a car at 400+ mph would be quite out of the ordinary. This may or may not be linked with assassination, but something is clearly off-kilter here.

No it doesn't prove anything, but it pays to assume the worst. If the powers that be wish people wouldn't do that, then they can fucking well stop lying to and withholding information from the public.

[DemonFighterLives]

214. Don't confuse them with facts.

The FBI wandering around up in no mans land waiting for a high profile accident to happen fits the cover story.
:thumbsup:

[MisterP]

167. why do three-fourths of DUers hate DU?!¡!11 *pout*

Like the 67% un-American Americans who don't like Dumbo!!111 They're super-bad for--er, themselves!

as for myself, I fear the answer to be "yes"

[cosmicdot]

168. n the 107th Congress (2002), Democrats held 50 Senate seats ...

presenting an obstacle to getting those Federalist Society judges on the Federal Courts, and for controlling the unfolding agenda and control of the committees ...

the GOP held 49 seats ... Jeffords dropped the R, and became Independent to give the Democrats majority ...

after the 2002 mid-term election ...

in the 108th Congress (2003), the GOP held 51 seats to the Democrats 48 ... + Jeffords

(in 2004, a few more seats were 'won', but that's the continuing story)


Would Wellstone have won in 2002?

Mondale who stepped in was leading Coleman 47-39% days before the election ... Coleman 'won' 50-47% ... an 11 point turn around.

Max Cleland held a 49-44 lead the day before the 2002 election in Georgia ... Saxby Chambliss 'won' 53-46% ... a 12 point turn in 1 day.

Regardless of what one believes, the Senate majority switched to the GOP whether legit or not; and, the committee gavels changed hands.


`````````````
Isn't thinking that this poll is being freeped (to make DU look bad?) a bit tin-foilish, too?
If not, that's a lot of freepers on-board. What other DU polls have been freeped?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

176. No

Unless it is impossible that a liberal could die in an accidental plane crash. I am unaware of such a workable theory.

[happydreams]

199. LOL. good one

[rman]

208. Does the possibility of accidents exclude assassination?

I don't think so.

[welshTerrier2]

179. do you believe they will stop at nothing to gain more power?

we seem to be having a debate in this thread between the "oh so practical where's your absolute proof" crowd and those who are looking at the pattern of behavior of the power elite to support their view of Wellstone's death as murder ...

the question is NOT whether, if you were on a jury, you would find sufficient evidence to convict anyone ... viewed thru that narrow lens, many of those who believe Wellstone was murdered might have answered differently ... but that is the wrong lens given the OP question ... the question was "do you BELIEVE" ...

we have an administration that has thought nothing of sacrificing well over 2000 American lives in Iraq and countless more who have been severely injured ... even in a trial, you look at the overall conduct and character of the defendant ... does a crowd that's come to power under very suspicious circumstances (election "irregularities") and a crowd that wages never-ending war as oil profits soar to new records preclude you from believing that they would stop at nothing to achieve their greedy objectives? you can't believe it's likely they would use assassination even given their proclivity for war, violence and torture to achieve their goals?

when defining "what you believe", I think it's important to look at the "broader" evidence ... this is an administration that would stop at nothing ... in a situation like this, to establish "belief", the burden is on bush et al to convince us they didn't murder him ...

maybe such "conspiracy theories" make DU look like whackos to our viewing public; of course, that doesn't necessarily make us wrong ...

[DemonFighterLives]

187. You are correct

An administration that would kill over 100,000? Iraqis and spread depleted uranium all over their country killing our own troops with the same mystery disease.
I honestly don't care what "they" think. The deluded 29% can have dubco and their little fairy tales.
:dem:

[rman]

209. Whatever they think they can get away with,

they'll do.
And they can get away with a lot because the are in positions of power (government, media/PR etc) needed to cover up their crimes.

[DemonFighterLives]

189. Rest in Peace Paul

[happydreams]

196. Anyway, who cares what the Freepers think of

this poll?

:scared: :sarcasm: