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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:47 AM
Original message
NEW LIBBY FILING FINGERS ROVE, FLEISCHER
THE FOLLOWING IS FROM LIBBY'S FILING (PDF TO BE POSTED BY NOON FRIDAY ET)

Below, we provide further examples of why the documents we seek are necessary to prepare to examine three particular witnesses – Mr. Grossman, Mr. Fleischer, and Mr. Rove.

Marc Grossman. As discussed in the introduction, the government plans to call Under Secretary Grossman to testify that he discussed Ms. Wilson’s CIA employment with Mr. Libby – a conversation that Mr. Libby testified in the grand jury he did not recall and which may not have occurred as alleged in the indictment. For example, the indictment asserts that this conversation occurred “n or about June 11 or 12, 2003.” (Indictment, Count One, at ¶ 6.)

Accordingly, Mr. Grossman’s activities in that time period, including any other communications about Ms. Wilson that he may have had, are highly relevant. If, for example, documents indicate that Mr. Grossman confused details of the conversation alleged in the indictment with a conversation with another government official, the defense will use such documents to suggest that his recollection is faulty. In a case where it is already manifest that the memories of many witnesses conflict regarding many different conversations, it is not fair to foreclose the possibility that witnesses other than Mr. Libby may be confused or mistaken about relevant events.

It is unreasonable for the government to contend that because Mr. Grossman’s “testimony will not be offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted,” it is irrelevant whether his statements are substantively true. (Gov’t Br. at 11.) Regardless of the government’s limited offer, the defense has a constitutional right to attempt to demonstrate, if it so chooses, that the substance of Mr. Grossman’s testimony is incorrect, and that all of his testimony should be rejected, including his allegation that he spoke to Mr. Libby about Ms. Wilson on a particular day. The best way to do that would be to show that some part or all of Mr. Grossman’s statements were substantively untrue.

The government responds to the defense contention that bias on the part of Mr. Grossman deserves to be explored by stating that “loyalty to Mr. Armitage or to the State Department” would not cause Mr. Grossman to “invent conversations . . . and testify to them under oath.” (Id. at 14.) Whether the government’s statement on this point is true is for the jury to decide....

Finally, by arguing that Mr. Grossman’s credibility is beyond challenge, the government has once again staked out two hopelessly inconsistent positions. The government asserts that Mr. Libby was motivated to lie under oath to avoid causing “great embarrassment to the administration.” (Id. at 26.) Yet, at the same time, the government also argues that the defense should not have the opportunity to determine whether Mr. Grossman might be motivated to testify in a manner that would prevent embarrassment to the State Department.

Ari Fleischer. The government states that it intends to call former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer to testify about a conversation with Mr. Libby, during which Ms. Wilson’s identity was allegedly discussed.

Again, as with Mr. Grossman, the defense has the right to challenge this allegation and investigate when and how Mr. Fleischer learned of Ms. Wilson’s employment. The government has admitted that “multiple officials in the White House discussed her employment with reporters prior to (and after) July 14,” and the defense has the right to explore whether any of these other officials may also have discussed Ms. Wilson with Mr. Fleischer. (Id. at 30, n.10.) In addition, Mr. Fleischer may have learned about Ms. Wilson’s identity from someone at the State Department or the CIA. The defense therefore needs access to any documents discussing Mr. Wilson, his wife, or his trip to Niger that may be found in the White House or at other agencies. Such documents are needed to investigate properly when and how Mr. Fleischer learned that Ms. Wilson worked for the CIA and when and with whom (other than Mr. Libby) he discussed that fact.

In our moving brief, the defense pointed to an even more specific reason to scrutinize the government’s proffered version of Mr. Fleischer’s testimony. Press accounts suggest that Mr. Fleischer may have learned about Ms. Wilson during his trip to Africa after seeing it in a classified report sent to Mr. Powell on Air Force One and then disclosed this information to reporters. Yet, the government claims that nothing further is required for Mr. Fleischer’s cross-examination than “a copy of the report in question.” (Id. at 12.) In so arguing, the government is once again attempting to dictate which defenses may be raised and which allegations in the indictment may be challenged. Nothing in Rule 16 or the case law of this Circuit suggests that the defense should be limited to cross-examining Mr. Fleischer with only the one report that the government deigns to disclose.

...

The government’s contention that the report is all the defense needs to cross- examine Mr. Fleischer is unpersuasive. Other documents, totally unrelated to the report, may show that Mr. Fleischer learned about Ms. Wilson from someone other than Mr. Libby. Also, the substance of the report is not as important as what Mr. Fleischer did with or said about the report. That information is likely reflected in correspondence, notes, or e-mails in Mr. Fleischer’s files, not in the report itself. After reviewing such documents, the defense will be better equipped to examine Mr. Fleischer about whether he saw the report on Air Force One, whether he recognized that it contained classified information, and whether he communicated its contents to anyone else.

Karl Rove. Senior White House advisor Karl Rove figures prominently in the government’s indictment. He allegedly spoke both to Mr. Novak and Mr. Libby about Ms. Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA. Accordingly, the government’s statement that it does not presently intend to call Mr. Rove does not diminish his importance in this case. The defense is likely to call Mr. Rove to provide testimony regarding Mr. Libby’s conversations with Mr. Rove concerning reporters’ inquiries about Ms. Wilson, as expressly discussed in the indictment. (Indictment, Count One, at ¶ 21.) Documents from Mr. Rove’s files about the subjects outlined in the indictment are discoverable pursuant to Rule 16 because without them the defense cannot effectively prepare for Mr. Rove’s examination. As discussed above, Rule 16 compels disclosure of such documents even if Mr. Rove remains a subject of a continuing grand jury investigation.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Leak_story_continues_to_track_in_0413.html
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. We now know why Ari hot-footed it out of the WH...
K&R.:thumbsup:
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Awe Yes! I can hear the main pig squealing loud and clear and if
the pig were in a slaughter house.
Senior White House advisor Karl Rove figures prominently in the government’s indictment. He allegedly spoke both to Mr. Novak and Mr. Libby about Ms. Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA. Accordingly, the government’s statement that it does not presently intend to call Mr. Rove does not diminish his importance in this case.


Three cheers for Patrick Fitzgerald

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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. I just LOVE that pic! A screenshot from a crystal ball, perhaps?
:thumbsup:
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. Gee and I thought it was because he had a conscience
My bad.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
36. I wish I could find the press conference thread from that day..
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 11:58 AM by SoCalDem
We had it pegged THEN.. The reason was so that when *² said " No one in my administration has any connection", he could do a "definition of "is" ..is" because Ari technically would no longer BE there..

The long plane ride to Africa figures BIG in this whole issue.. I think that;s when a lot of this got cooked up..

Bush/Cheney would never testify under oath so they were "good to go", Scooter would never rat out Big Dick, and with Ari gone, they thought they could get away with it because the press toadies they leaked to would "protect the sources" (they forgot what a toad Novak was).. Woodward had to be called in, as did the others.. Novak apparently sang every song in the hymnal for Fitz..
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
42. IIRC in May Ari announced he was going to be leaving. n/t
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 01:31 PM by Garbo 2004
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Greeby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interestink
:popcorn:
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Nickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Kinda what I thought. Libby is going to try and point the finger at Rove
and Co, while Rove is going to try and point the finger at Scooter. It's a race to see who gets thrown under the bus first.
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Botany Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. I want Rove in Jail
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 07:14 AM by Botany
The man is below contempt.

He steals an election and then he goes and plays christian w Jerry Falwell.

He ran a smear campaign that Ann Richards was a lesbian alcoholic while
getting an alcoholic elected governor in Texas.

He uses fear of gays as wedge issue while having a gay male prostitute work
as phony reporter in the White House. The "reporter" also spent nights in the White
House too.

He ruins an effective CIA agent's career and rolls up her front company (Brewster Jennings)
that was keep us all save from real WMDs because he was mad that her husband was
an American and used his right for free speech and a free press.

Drag his ass from the White House in cuffs.

boy this really could be a GOOD FRIDAY
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. This slow cooking stew
won't be on the stove for much longer, I can't wait for this feast.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
7. Watergate time.....
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 07:58 AM by H2O Man
the pressure has been put on in such a way that the prosecutor is able to exploit the growing divisions between the Office of the President, and the OVP's "shadow government."

*** on edit: I had mistakenly placed the word "not" in the above sentence. Sorry, my error. Yesterday I lost my balance and hit my head very hard, and apparently the knot on my head translated into a "not" in my post.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Yes I agree, Fitz's cat and mouse game is working very well.
The mice are scrambling.

PS Put some ice on that injury....to keep the swelling down, don't want our H2O man to lose any brain cells, we need them all.
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spuddonna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
35. Yikes!
I hope you're okay and feeling better. :hug:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. Seems the Aspens are turning
and Marc, Ari and Karl are not Aspens.

Fitzgerald is amazing. He has managed to split the WH in house and now we can sit back and watch them destroy each other.

This is good. Pass the popcorn and don't bogart.

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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. and they are not turning together, it is each aspen for itself!
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acmejack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. Get him!
I really would like to see him go down.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:14 AM
Response to Original message
10. I was right, then!
Libby is cooperating and will cop a plea.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. That would be nice.
And it's possible. But this looks more like a war between two sects within the administration. Libby's attorneys can create significant problems for the Office of the President by focusing on the roles played by Rove and Fleischer, yet this adds nothing to what Fitzgerald has on either of them. He benefits fromn the in-fighting, but in order for Libby to strike the deal with the prosecutor, he has to provide information on people above him. Prosecutors don't deal down.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Question
Is this new information or is this same information from the 54 pg double PDF filing from late Wednesday night?

I have been extremely busy, but this sounds an awful lot like what K.O. and David S. discussed last night on Countdown.

The way how the article is titled it makes it seem like there will be a new filing today. If that is correct then someone is leaking, which is not good based on Walton's Show Cause order from yesterday. I just checked, an official source and there has been nothing filed or made public yet by the Federal Court(s). Hence why I am a little confused.:shrug:

Is this the "meat/digested" information that is finally coming out from the Wednesday filing?
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I too was confused
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 08:17 AM by kpete
I took the info from Raw Story (which started off with a Boston Globe piece) which had this interesting bit of info with the statement: THE FOLLOWING IS FROM LIBBY'S FILING (PDF TO BE POSTED BY NOON FRIDAY ET) Confused as I was (about whether or not this was "new" info) I went ahead and posted it.

Of course, I was hoping one of you would clarify...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Looks to be.
From the OP, it looks like it is the information that has been discussed for the past day. It's good for people who have not had an opportunity to read the key parts. Some people are not inclined to read a 20-30 page legal document, and so highlighting the sections that Schuster, Matthews, and Keith O were talking about is a good thing.

I would also suggest that people who are interested review the essay on Ari Fleischer that I posted a few days back. It almost seems to have anticipated the Team Libby focus on poor Ari ..... and Keith needs to read DU, as I note he said Ari had dropped out of sight until Wednesday's filing ... when he was clearly discussed on a Water Man essay & thread!

I will be very interested in Jason L's take on the notice from Judge Walton. I believe that it is likely that it has to do with the Fitzgerald letter being leaked a day before it would have become public in their exhibits. They tried to orchestrate a media flurry of "Fitzgerald fucked up!," and to discredit some reports in the NY Times and Washington Post. Other than Fox News and other rabid right "journalists," it flopped.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Suggested reading........
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 08:36 AM by stop the bleeding
Thank you, I need to get out of DU for a few hours to get caught up on some work on a "slow day". If I can get my work done, I am gonna sit down and read both PDF's(from Wed) and the Ari essay again. This will be a long weekend for Everyone (Plame DU'ers, WHIG, *, Libby) to quietly reflect about calm before the impending storm.



(for kpete, I am glad I wasn't the only one swimming in this abyss) ;)


edit: for others that wish to follow up on your suggested reading:

http://udpc.org/Exhibit%20Fibby.pdf - Exhibit A - F - 25 pages PDF - late Wednesday filing

http://udpc.org/Response%20Fibby.pdf - 29 page response PDF - late Wednesday filing


H2O Man's Ari Essay from 04/07/06

http://h2oman.blogspot.com/2006/04/ari-fleischer-libby-trial.html

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sojourner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
43. thanks stb...a kindness most appreciated!
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. That "Fitz Fucked Up!" Spin Was So Pathetic
Edited on Fri Apr-14-06 08:42 AM by Beetwasher
Really desperate.

It's like they think they can still fight this as a PR battle. I hope they continue to think that. Fitz is circling them, flanking them, coming at them from all sides and tightening the cordon, and they're shooting up at the moon and into their own feet and backsides.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. It's just the beginning of the PR battle. Take a look at
one recent example:

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200604130852.asp



This is entertaining.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. Fingered? More like finger-pointed.
This finger pointing doesn't make an allegation against Fliescher or Rove, something I believe is required of "fingering" someone for misconduct or crime. Libby's defense team is using it to achieve as broad a claim to discovery as possible.

Why? Because Libby's defense plan includes an attempt to create the situation wherein the WH or other government agency will refuse to provide information using the argument of national security. The broader their claims to discovery the more likely they will be to reach a point that refusal takes place.

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DLnyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-15-06 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
44. Yes, that's how I read it.
The requests for discovery are designed to impede the progress of the trial. But in addition to hoping that the WH will refuse to provide materials, it sounds like Libby's lawyers are trying to get materials involved in the larger case that Fitz may not want to provide. Since Libby is only charged with obstruction and lying, all the references to actions of other administration members seem quite ludicrous, to me. But his lawyers know that Fitz is investigating a larger case against other members of the WH (precisely the case that Libby did his best to obstruct), so they're making a (pretty flimsy) argument that they need all sorts of documents relating to the larger case, knowing that Fitz won't provide those while he's still building the case.

Anyway, the last paragraph of Section III (top of page 23) seems to suggest that the defense has agreed (probably because the judge told them he wouldn't allow the 'WH won't provide' crap) to "limit its requests . . . to those . . . in the Special Counsel's possession, or of which the Special Counsel has knowledge."

Just my two cents. I'm certainly no lawyer.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. Must Digest Thoroughly W/ My Morning Coffee
But right off the bat, I must say it looks like all hell is breaking loose.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
21. We are looking at a giant battle of wit, psychology and nerves...
Fitz is a master. If nothing more ever happens he has significantly damaged the WH.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Fitz is just a very talented prosecutor doing his job
I doubt that his motives involve anything other than getting to the bottom of a crime.

What is amazing is how completely he ignores the political pressures and just keeps on doing his job. Proof that doing the right thing is, in and of itself, very powerful.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I agree with you 100%. His intent is not to do political damage,
but to do his job which is narrowly mandated and about the crime in question. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

But nonetheless his process has done damage. But isn't that a common technique when working with a team of crooks, get them to turn against each other? This team of crooks happens to have taken over the WH so it has had politcal repercussions whether that was Fitz's intent or not.

Fitz is coming from a place of personal integrity and power, he does not care at all if he pisses off the Dems or the Repugs.

He is doing the right thing and letting the chips fall where they may.
Like Cindy Sheehan.



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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Very good comparison, Cindy Sheehan and Fitz
Just doing the right thing.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Yes, they do not care who they piss off, they are like a dog with
a bone. They will not stop til they have accomplished their missions.
They are both on the side of the angels.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
26. Is Libby really "fingering" these people, or is he working
with them?
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. Kick!
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
30. 1 hour to go
Raw Story rocks.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
31. kick
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
32. ...And all this happened WITHOUT Bush's knowledge or participation
They are dumber than we thought, folks !
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
33. K&R! n/t
PB
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. From the Globe article (linked at RS):
''The defense intends to show the jury that the controversy over intelligence failures during the spring and summer of 2003 led certain officials within the White House, the State Department, and the CIA to point fingers at each other," the filing says. ''This bureaucratic infighting provides necessary context for the testimony of witnesses from different government agencies."

It adds: ''Mr. Libby plans to demonstrate that the indictment is wrong when it suggests that he and other government officials viewed Ms. Wilson's role in sending her husband to Africa as important."


This has been the party line all along. It's beginning to look as if Libby's defense team is really a defense team for the entire administration. ?
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Which Libby Defense Team?
I would say that Libby has been getting good advice and direction from the team headed by Ted Wells. I would also guess he has been getting contrary advice from the people who have been heading up his legal defense fund. Barbara Comstock is prominent there and I would say her main interest isn't Libby but protecting the WH at all costs. It will be interesting to see if and when Libby cops a plea if the funds magically dry up.
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Lost4words Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
38. I would love to see the puke fleischer do time.
arrogant lying bastard,
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. Something occured to me as I read this....and I have read everything
out there on this case.

I wonder somehow if the ** was set-up. Knowing that under pressure they may resort to attacking Plame Wilson, or some other illegal activity. Perhaps some people at State and the CIA all the way back to when Joe Wilson was summoned to investigate the claims about Niger were setting the administration up.

Ari gave his notice two months before Plame's outing took place. I wonder if maybe he was a mole considering he was an outsider and not part of the intimate circle ** surrounds himself with.

Clearly Armitage and Powell were at odds with the neos.

And there was all the infighting going on between State, the CIA, and the WH.

I just wonder if this gang of thugs weren't beat at their own game??

What a freakin burn!!
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-14-06 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
41. Mmmmmm, tasty!
Get 'em boy!
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