in honor of $3 gasoline : SUVs MAKE YOU STUPID article

[no_to_war_economy]

"..according to the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, minivans are 10 times safer than SUVs in a crash. "

"... I know their arguments for owning them. I know that they know, deep down, that most of those arguments hold little sway and most are rather hollow and the result of slick marketing and just a little bit of fear. "


http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0109-27.htm

[Lorien]

1. I love Morford. Another snip from the above:

You can see it in the eyes of most every new SUV buyer as they stare, wide eyed and overwhelmed, at the massive vehicles in the showroom: some sort of veil drops over their eyes, some sort of weird opiate pumps into their brains and they lose all sense of reason or common sense or environmental concern and their ego balloons and their testosterone kicks up three notches and they go into some sort of spasm of denial about how purchasing one of these things will, in fact, contribute quite heartily to the overall ill health of their own bodies and the planet as a whole, not to mention the very reason we are so desperately, violently at war.

And the salesman sees that look and just smiles and licks his chops and points out how this 4-ton hunk of environmental devastation can seat nine and tow a large tractor or maybe 15 head of cattle, plus it has 27 cup holders and three DVD players and a built-in sense of false superiority, and the vaguely depressed regularly emasculated suburban dad or the gum-snapping Marina girl with way too much of her parents' money and way too little self-defined taste takes one look and goes, oooh.

What, too harsh? Not really. Most people know these facts to be true, but buy the tanks anyway in a mad collusion of wishful thinking and raw denial and false advertising, absolutely convinced the beasts are somehow safer and sturdier (they're neither) and that they absolutely must have 37 cubic feet of cargo space to haul their grocery bags and 4-wheel-drive traction to get over those little concrete barriers in the mall parking lot and just ignore the fact that the thing rides like a brick and handles like a block of lead and is about as attractive and beautifully designed as a jar of rocks.

[lectrobyte]

3. Someday we'll look back on all these SUVs and laugh the way kids

today would laugh at something like this:

[Lorien]

10. Most of the kids I know would covet that car

and it probably gets better mileage than the average SUV! 50 years and the fleet mileage for most American auto manufactuers hasn't improved at all. :crazy:

[lectrobyte]

23. I guess, I always thought all the chrome and tacked on tail fins

looked pretty cheesey, but then again, I prefer the looks of a '55 Chevy all over a '57.

[Patchuli]

72. 55 is live but a 57 is poetry!

Or you could covet the gorgeous body by Fisher of my '67 Camaro! My better half likes a 66 Ford Corina (looks like a little Falcon and some had Lotus engines.) I personally think that Chrysler is purty...

[longship]

2. R & K

:kick:ed

[Atman]

4. Honda CRV's do all that to you?

And Suzuki Vitaras? Wow. Because they're SUV's, too, you know. What about Toyota Hybrid SUV's?

Can't we PLEASE come up with another name for Gargantuan Behemoth Massive Land Yachts? You might as well just call them "cars," because they have four wheels and doors just like a car does, and the term is about as accurate.

[Roland99]

5. I lump all the Ford SUVs into one called the Ford Exhibition

:)

[Atman]

8. But that's not a very accurate description, then

The Exhibition is a Land Yacht. Ford also makes Hybrid "Escapes."

My point is that many years have passed since the term SUV was penned, and it is simply meaningless now. It covers such a wide swath of the market, when most people are actually only referring to Land Yachts.

[Roland99]

14. How about we separate them into SAVs and SUVs

Suburban Assault Vehicles

Small Utility Vehicles

[trogdor]

25. Land Yacht? Try land BARGE.

A land yacht is an old Caddy, or an Imperial, or a Lincoln Continental, or a Buick deuce and a quarter. You know, somehting with style. Take away the style, and you have a barge. That's an SUV.

[lectrobyte]

6. CRV/RAV4/Escape are "cute utes" Suburban/Excursion/etc. are

"big ass" SUV's.

[Atman]

9. Is "CUTE UTE" a term the EPA uses?

SUV is the term, and it covers everything.

[lectrobyte]

13. Probably not. RAV4 != Excursion, and most folks would call an

Escape or similar a "little SUV".

[Atman]

16. "Most Folks" would, but Morford nor the OP made a distinction

The OP called SUV's drivers STUPID. Not "Drivers of massive SUV's like the Excursion." CRV drivers drive "SUVs" according to the EPA. Are they also STUPID?


(For the record, I don't drive a mini-SUV, I'm just tired of this term being used to take pot shots at people...it is simply not a fair and accurate description in this era of mini-hybrid SUVs which share the road with Urban Assualt Vehicles.)

[lectrobyte]

21. From the article, and comments about weight and size I assume he's

talking about Tahoe/Expedition and up. I suppose you could make the same argument about a CRV or RAV4 when compared to their car equivalents. A CRV is based on the Civic platform, and basically gets 10MPG less than the sedan version.

[LeftyMom]

34. Those mini-SUVs are kinda a joke as far as I'm concerned

I can fit more crap in my wagon, I can fit just as many people in my wagon (and probably more comfortably, those things are generally pretty narrow) my wagon is as safe (new models would be safer than thier minu SUV equivalents,) handles fine in the snow and was much less expensive. Unless there was a medical need for a higher vehicle (granny has a bad hip or something) I'd never pick one over a wagon or sedan.

[spooky3]

28. Thanks, Atman, it's a good point; I do have a Rav4 and it gets

better mileage and is far more practical than most cars on the road today. It's basically a slightly raised station-wagon Corolla, so I can get a lot of mulch and other stuff in there. It has NOTHING in common with a big gas hog SUV and is cheaper and can do a lot more than even a moderate size sedan that can't haul anything, so I don't take the "stupid SUV owner" label too seriously :-).

[TallahasseeGrannie]

55. My friend has a RAV

and I fit in just fine. And I'm BIG.

[no_to_war_economy]

7. another great clip from the article

" ... Another big fallacy? SUV roominess. Hell, ugly ol' minivans have far more storage and headroom, as do most sport wagons, PT Cruisers -- even large hatchbacks have more than enough overall storage (and often better headroom) for any but the largest of families and oh my God even this is a moot point because you well know that 97 percent of all SUVs on the road are single occupant and the only "cargo" is their purse or their gym bag, while the other 36 square feet is taken up by, well, ego and attitude and air. "

[recoveringrepublican]

19. I love my Father-in-law's CRV, It gets 30mpg

Nobody believes me though for some reason. I had to drive it for 2 months last year while they were out of town and my car was in and out of the shop. It was when Katrina hit and gas prices were skyrocketing causing the shortages (which is happening again here in Florida, at least in Tarpon Springs). I'll admit I was filling it up every other day, because I didn't want to take the chance of not being able to get to work (I work over night, no bus service). I drive a little under 80 miles round trip to work, when I would fill it up it would take about 2.5 gallons to top it off. Told my FIL, he didn't believe me, but he's been keeping track and now says I was right.

[lectrobyte]

22. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I used to have a 4 cyl jeep

cherokee, and I would get in the mid 20's most of the time, and that was 15 years ago, I'd expect a RAV4 or CRV or similar to do pretty well these days, especially highway.

[spooky3]

29. you're right--29 MPG hwy with AC in my Rav4

The stickshift models and newer ones probably do better than mine.

[grace0418]

60. I call them Planet-Mobiles

Complete with their own gravitational pull.

[RedEarth]

11. Good article... I can't stand those giant SUV's.. "land tanks" is a very

good description.

[Atman]

12. UAV's

"Urban Assault Vehicles"

[RedEarth]

15. That's even a better description...... very appropriate

[hatrack]

75. Then there's my personal favorite - "Testosterone Shitwagon"

Or could that potentially offend someone?

[Another Bill C.]

17. A Geo Tracker is a "land tank"?

I had a compact once but when I tried to drive it in 2 feet of snow or more, the front bumper turned into a snow plow and I could only drive a few feet. I bought a Jeep. I get nearly the same mileage as I got with my old Omni.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. We have an SUV

we have four adults and two infants in our family. We had a van, but it flipped over. This is a Nissan Armada and supposedly the wheelbase is wider.

We are all large people. All the men are over 6'3. (my son is 6'5") My daughter is 6 feet and I weigh 330+. So a little roller skate car isn't going to work for us. I personally don't drive, so we just use the one car to go to work.

I know there is a rollover problem with suv's but they hold up much better in head-on, tree and deer collisions and T-bones. These are the most common types of accident in our rural area. Our other issue is room for the babies in the back since you can't put their carseats in the front.

It's been a non-green decision, but we tried everything. Sometimes you just have to face facts of your life.

Plus we have a wheelchair person regularly, as well.

[no_to_war_economy]

20. the facts are

sienna would have given you the same room and saved you gas mileage and would spit out less toxins


toyota sienna

Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 42, rear headroom (inches): 40.2, front hip room (inches): 58.4, rear hip room (inches): 67.5, front leg room (inches): 42.9, rear leg room (inches): 39.6, front shoulder room (inches): 63.8, rear shoulder room (inches): 64.9 and interior volume (cu ft): 177.4

your armanda

Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 41, rear headroom (inches): 40, front hip room (inches): 61.3, rear hip room (inches): 60.1, front leg room (inches): 41.8, rear leg room (inches): 41.9, front shoulder room (inches): 65.1, rear shoulder room (inches): 64.5 and interior volume (cu ft): 188.4

toyota sienna air pollution score:




your armanda air pollution score:




sienna greenhouse score:




armanda greenhouse score:




fuel economy sienna

CITY mpg HWY mpg

19 26


fuel economy armanda

CITY mpg HWY mpg

13 19

[mimitabby]

24. right on No_to_war!

my little honda fits a very tall person as well.
people are brainwashed by those car ads filmed with wide angle lens cameras
I guess!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. But will it hold four adults

and two children at the same time? This is the family car, used to get all of us to work, school, etc. All at once. One car for six people. Most adults in this country own their own car. We share one.

However, those clearance number are very impressive. Are the very back seats considered safe for infant seats? I'm not married to the Armada by any means. I wonder how the safety tests compare? Do you know? My son is a paramedic and really adamant about small cars and fatalities. He's seen so many on our hilly winding roads and my biggest concern is to keep those babies safe.

[Atman]

40. The Armada is HUGE

Even the name was given to evoke huge-ness.

Seriously, that is one massive vehicle! Our old 7 passenger minivan was plenty cavernous...captians chairs for front and back, three person bench in the way-back, plus storage behind. And it could drive into the rear deck of an Armada.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

44. I also forgot to mention

that we haul a tractor once or twice a month. (we own a small Xmas tree farm in No. FL) so we can't have a minivan chasis. It has to pull a full-sized Ford tractor.

But you know, the Armada doesn't seem that large inside. I'm interested in looking at this Sienna. But I wonder if it can pull a 16' trailer?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

45. Forgot to mention

the name. Unfortunate choice for a name, wouldn't you say? I guess the Japanese aren't up on their English history?

[SlipperySlope]

26. Inflation adjusted gas prices

[BiggJawn]

27. He nailed one point dead-center...

"...it's just an illusion, deceptive and harmful given how SUVs actually have more accidents, actually cause more accidents than passenger cars because they can't maneuver in emergency situations and can't stop in rain or snow and tend to flip over easier than Paris Hilton after a dozen Bacardi shooters."

Last month a woman did a lane-change out on I-65 in her Chevy Blazer, didn't see the car in the other lane, flipped it, rolled 4 times, ejected her daughter out of the SUV, and a semi driver had to take the ditch to avoid hitting her body.

Yeah, safer my ass....

[slestak]

30. Put down the broad brush

Some folks own SUVs because they need them. Because they need the power/room to haul or tow. Because they need to travel places a Prius can get to.

[MadHound]

31. Then get a pickup truck

Due to all of the extra weight added by the extra seats, body work, etc. it is actually more efficient to haul and tow stuff with a pickup, rather than an SUV. I've got a farm, and keep a little four banger Nissan Frontier for just that purpose. However if I'm not hauling or towing stuff, I either ride a Honda Civic or one of these


Using an SUV for commuting purpose is just foolish.

[slestak]

33. Agreed

About the commuting part.

However, there are many times I need to transport 5-6 people over forest roads in the summer, and over snow-packed forest roads in the winter. When I bought my SUV (Nissan Pathfinder), I strongly considered a Frontier or a Toyota Tacoma. I just have more use for the bigger vehicle right now.

I don't regret the purchase, but my next vehicle will probably be a small pick-up.

[Touchdown]

37. Logical falacy. Only the USA is so rugged.

Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Russia, Austria, Poland, and many other European nations get just as much snow, have just as high of mountains, has almost as many unpaved plots of land, and they know they don't need SUVs for any of that. If they buy them, it's because they like American shit. Nobody NEEEEEEEEEDS to off-road, unless the road is washed out. If a Prius can't get there, it doesn't need to be gotten to...not in this country. Borneo, Rwanda or Peru perhaps, but not the USA.

Funny, when I need to haul I ask for delivery, and usually get it for free. Towing? I'd rent.

[Atman]

43. Actually, I own a yurt on a dirt road in the woods of N.E.

Ever heard of Mud Season? Ever tried hauling a full load of supplies down a road when the mud is up to hub caps? Sorry, I'm not taking a Prius there. No way.

[Touchdown]

47. Ever thought of buying land suitable for human occupancy?

What's a yurt?

[Atman]

49. If you have to ask, it explains your comments!

Ignorance can be bliss. Go with it!

Oh...and we'll be installing solar panels this spring for electricity. Water is from a well, but we hope to have rainwater cisterns hooked up this year, too, which works for most everything but cooking and tooth brushing.

[Touchdown]

52. And if you didi all this in Siberia, you still wouldn't need

...your Tahoe.

[Atman]

58. Believe me, I DO NOT own a Tahoe. Nothing close.

Why do you think I was bitching earlier about small SUV's being lumped in with Tahoes?

And look at it another way...aren't I more than offsetting the pollution and gas usage by using solar electricity for my home? Can't an old hippie get a break around here? Some people won't be happy until everyone is driving one of these...

[Touchdown]

62. My bad, Got you confused with the Blazer guy below.

I even got the vehicle wrong.:dunce:

I saw Obi-Wan ride one of those. It's better with a light saber though.

[Atman]

64. I'm the yurt guy

:hippie:

[Touchdown]

68. So what's a Yurt, Mr. Snowboarder in the mud?

:shrug: :D

[Atman]

69. Google is your friend

Mine is up about 4' off the ground, in the woods, with a 36' deck surrounding it. And it has larger windows.

[Touchdown]

71. Oh' for Pete's sake!

If your proud of it, and I assume you are since you're building it, then talk about it. Google is less of a friend than you can be.

[Atman]

73. Dude, lighten up!

Seriously! I'm extremely proud of it. But seriously, Google it. You'll find tons of info on them. The aerodynamics, the weatherproofing...they're pretty damned neat. Mine has been up for over five years, with one winter in storage while I was clearing the new land it's on. And -- staying on topic here -- it fits in my plain old regular size SUV. It can be taken down in about an hour...it takes about three or four hours to put up. More if you allow your friends to start drinking BEFORE you're done.

I didn't post anything more before because I was about to leave to take my son out to dinner for his 18th birthday. Now that I'm back, here's the standard set of pics. It's a little farther along now, but these are from last summer.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

57. We're in the process of planning to build

on our farm and we are going as green as we can. We won't be off the grid, but we'll be selling power back to the power company.

[Atman]

61. My yurt site is built out of almost all recycled materials.

Instead of killing forests for lumber, we built the infrastructure (it has to be raised off the ground) on two old steal mobile home frames, resting on recycled telephone poles. The coping around the base (flashing) is salvaged tanks from an old shrimp farm, cut into 8" strips. Even the kitchen table is an old door from a barn. I tried to leave as many trees as possible, but did have to fell one 60" oak, which I stripped and used for the carrying beam.

It ain't easy being green, especially when people pre-judge you because you can't afford a new $35,000 hybrid!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

66. We haven't decided exactly what materials to use

yet. We're thinking maybe cypress log. We want the best R rating. I can't live her in FL w/out AC and a lot of it!

My husband and I lived in a storage shed on this property for seven months...no running water. We had power after the first month. And I'm embarassed to say we had DishTv! It was actually a lot of fun. Very cozy. It was cool to use the bathroom on the front porch at 3AM and see the coyotes running in the field.

We're back in our suburban house at the moment.

[Ilsa]

77. A really cool dwelling!

http://www.rainieryurts.com/

[Atman]

78. I posted pics of mine in #73

Ranier are nice! I like their windows.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I Own A Chevy Blazer. I Love It.

Anyone wants to imply I'm stupid for it can kiss my better-than-they-are ass.

[MadHound]

35. What do you use it for?

Do you have a farm, travel off road a lot, what is the reason for your ownership of said Blazer?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. Frankly? I Fail To See How That's Any Of Your Damn Business.

[MadHound]

46. Sure it is. If you're polluting the air, using up ever scarcer resources

For no other reason than to schlup your happy ass back and forth to work, yeah, I'm more than a little irked with you. It means that you have become part of the problem, not part of the solution. And God knows, in this day and age we need all of the solutions we can get.

It burns me no end to see these giant pickups and SUVs that are absolutely spotless, not having any sort of work more difficult than navigating a parking space at the mall.

Now if you're actually using this as a work vehicle, as in farm work, construction work, etc, I have no beef with you. But judging by your initial semi-hostile post, and your subsequent rude answer to my question, I would judge that no, this fuel sucking, air polluting, status symbol for an insecure ego is used for no other work than hauling you back and forth for the daily grind.

How fucking pitiful. Know that real farmers laugh at people like you trying to act all macho and shit. If you want to at least try not looking like a poser, dirty your Blazer up a bit, you know, make it look like it's actually used for something:eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Guess It's A Good Thing That Your Opinion Is Meaningless To Me.

But then, I generally view all absurd, extremist and overly dramatic opinions as meaningless to me. I'd say the above reply most definitely fits that criteria. There are so many inaccurate, assumptive and over the top statements in there I don't even know where to start, and am probably making the right decision to not even bother.

Good luck with your self-righteous vendetta. I wish you well.

[BlueCollar]

59. I see you didn't send a shot across my bow

for driving a jeepcherokee...and agreeing with MC

why not?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. Oh my goodness

[BlueCollar]

36. my preference is my 99 jeep cherokee

only GM I was ever satisfied with was my 68 Camaro.

I'm with you...I'm getting a little tired of the SUV bashing. This Jeep has been a hell of a lot more useful than my 92 Saturn. Granted, the Saturn was more economical and comfortable, but for weekend home improvement projects, it was totally impractical.

[Touchdown]

38. Will you wash it first?

I know your shit doesn't stink, but the stripe is unsightly.:evilgrin:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. LOL

I gotta say, never heard that one before. I quite liked it :)

For the record though, believe me, it takes a lot of lysol to cover of my shit stink LOL

[SammyWinstonJack]

70. !

:evilgrin:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

48. Okay, here's a question

for any environmentalists. If every vehicle in the US (excluding trade vehicles) were to go hybrid, to what extent would that alleviate pollution and the greenhouse effect? I guess my question is how do autos compare to trade vehicles, factories, etc.

I'm not up on this stuff.

[Atman]

50. study: Full-size SUVs consume less energy over lifetime than hybrids

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/01/new-study-full-size-suvs-consume-less-energy-over-lifetime-than/

The results of a new study conducted by CNW Marketing Research Inc. is sure to generate some arched eyebrows. The firm's report stems from their two-year effort to collect and analyze data on the "energy neessary to plan, build, sell, drive and dispose of a vehicle from initial concept to scrappage." CNW then assigned their findings a new comparative metric - "dollars per lifetime mile" - or, said another way, total energy cost per mile driven.

The findings? America's most expensive vehicle in calendar 2005 was the Maybach (presumably a 62), tallying up at a staggering $11.58/mile. The thriftiest? Scion's boxy xB, just $.48 cents/mile.

But here's where it gets interesting: CNW's findings indicate that a hybrid consumes more energy overall than a comparable conventionally powered model. It judged showed that the Honda Accord Hybrid rang up an Energy Costs Per Mile of $3.29, while a gas-powered Accord was significantly cheaper at $2.18/mile. The study concludes that the average of all 2005 U.S. market vehicles was $2.28/mile.

The reasoning goes that hybrids use up more energy to manufacture, as well as consume more resources in terms of the assembly (and eventual disposal) of things like batteries and motors. By CNW's reckoning, the intrinsically lower complexity of, say, a Hummer H3 ($1.949/mile) actually results in lower total energy usage than any hybrid currently on the market, and even a standard Honda Civic ($2.42).

While the study's findings don't take issue with what vehicles are more financially economical to own (read: those with better mileage), it does pose some interesting questions about total energy usage in hybrids.

Obviously, in order to best judge the merit of CNW's findings, a clearer explanation of the study's criteria and processes is in order.

[Touchdown]

53. Key words in your study is "CNW MARKETING RESEARCH."

Heaven forbid we get our science from actual scientists.:eyes:

[Atman]

56. It's just an article. And it makes some degree of sense.

Do you think those giant batteries are grown by some hippies on an organic farm?

You don't have to read it or agree with it. I made no comment about it whatsoever, I simply posted it. Even the final line of the article suggests it would be nice to know what criteria was measured. But the amazing thing about it, I suppose...is that is is a differing opinion! *GASP!*

[lectrobyte]

76. I'm having trouble seeing how it made sense, and apparently, so

do other folks.

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/4/6/94938/43494


The batteries are one of the more easily-recyclable parts, be it lead-acid or lithium ion. And I just can't see how a Honda Civic, hybrid or non-hybrid, uses more energy over its life than an H3. The Civic is manufactured with less material, less steel, less plastic, uses less gas, smaller tires, etc. I'm not saying the study is wrong, I'd just like to see how they figure the costs.

[lectrobyte]

74. Obviously, a clearer explanation of the study's and processes is in order.

That sounds like an interesting study. I'd sure like to see how they figure it out. I can't figure out how if there's so much energy tied up in making a Honda Civic, then why don't they cost more than an H3? Japan has to import a lot of their energy needs, too. The study could well be correct, but something just doesn't add up. I'm having trouble seeing the $2.42 per mile. Make sense to any of you?

Take a Honda Civic. Assuming 100,000 miles, $15K to purchase, 30MPG average over its life, $2/gal gas, that comes out to $21,667. Around 21 cents per mile. Given the study's number of $2.42, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how the energy cost could be anywhere close to $2.42 / mi, even assuming the $15K purchase price was all energy costs. Even $3/gal gas only gets you to $25K, 40 cents/mile. And the fuel mileage is probably better than my estimate, too.

Now consider an H3, it's probably going to use twice the gas, uses more steel etc. Hard to see how it is using less energy, or even be made with less energy, even over the life span of the vehicle.

[tabasco]

51. Here's my SUV!

PLUS for whenever I have to haul something:



50 mpg! Maybe 40 when I'm pulling a heavy load of wood.

Got rid of my US-made pickup when it started falling apart at 75000 miles.

This little Echo is the best car I ever owned.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

65. 50! Amazing!

Nice looking little car, too.

Funny how these SUV threads get ugly and turn into "I'm hippier and more Dem than thou." And I'm guilty of it, too. It's unfortunate.

But I like that little car. If I drove, I might buy one.

I guess I'm hippier and more Dem than most because I don't even have a license, huh?

LOL

[tabasco]

67. I'm preparing for bad times.

And trying to give some ideas to others.

If that's hip - that's cool by me!

[kineneb]

79. cool!

I own a 2000 Hyundai Elantra wagon: 30-34 mpg, holds 4 people plus stuff in back. Most of the insides of my pipe organ got moved in it- the car was stuffed to the roof with boxes of pipes and wooden parts. It holds more than most SUVs, gets much better milage and is lots more comfortable. I plan to keep it as long as it will run.

[bullwinkle428]

80. The Echo is no more, but the Yaris coming out very shortly -

Similar MPG - 40 highway! However, the new Honda Civic gets the same highway MPG, with considerably more power...I'd probably have to go with the Civic myself.