The Gettysburg Address

[Guaranteed]

We never see this around here. I've posted the Declaration of Independence a time or two, as have others. But people don't often see the inspirational words of perhaps our greatest President in this forum:

November 19, 1863

Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate–we can not consecrate–we can not hallow–this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us–that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion–that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain–that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom–and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.



http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/GettysbuAd

[Yupster]

1. First of all

the USA was certainly not dedicated to the proposition that all men were created equal.

Second, the Civil War was hardly about whether the United States could long endure. The Confederacy made no claims on the US government and the USA would long endure with or without the seceeded states just fine.

This has got to be the most overrated speech in history.

[Guaranteed]

3. I hold that truth to be self-evident.

The extent of idea's execution is, of course, debatable.

But, as much as you would like to destroy my hope, that will not happen.

You clearly did not truly read a word that he said.

[0007]

4. I'll second that!

Thank you Yupser.

[Guaranteed]

5. Yeah! Fuck Lincoln and continuing the fight.

That's the spirit.

[pretzel4gore]

14. Lincoln was a good man...

i don't care what anyone says. The US civil war wasn't just about slavery, but the Emancipation Proclamation effectively made the south's fight impossible...maybe those days contained a glorious future that anyone who looked up could glimpse, or something, but there's no doubt Lincoln was aware that all men were NOT equal at the time of the Gettysburg Address, but even the greasiest race supremist then knew that racism and exploitation and the old ways were...backward! Years and years of modern 'republican't' propaganda have finally made the dreams of liberty and equality and brotherhood for all; the idea of fairness in labour wages and freedom from cohersion etc politically correct, and therefore bad and EVIL!
like jesus said, money is the root of all evil, and the liberals, the dems and the socialist/left was never guilty of having that!
btw has ANYONE ever heard of the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic)?

[hexola]

25. Lincoln made us ALL slaves...(nt)

[stevedeshazer]

37. How so?

Just curious. :shrug:

[wordpix2]

40. huh?

[saltpoint]

41. Lincoln helped make me a slave to my country's history, in the sense

that I read about it and have coe to respect it much more.

That's the worst he ever did for me.

[Toots]

28. BS on both your arguments

The war was fought over equality. That blacks were equal and not subject to slavery. And how could anyone say if you take half of something away it doesn't effect the whole? If I promise you a pie and only give you half has that promise been effected? When the United States are no longer "United" is there an effect? Your argument is senseless.

[Yupster]

31. Neither Lincoln nor I said anything about

the union being effected.

Lincoln said the war was over whether the union could long survive.

I say of course the union could long survive with the seven (later eleven due to Lincoln's Bushian diplomacy) seceeded states or without them.

In fact the union may have been stronger without the seven cotton states. Would we be that worse off today without Texas and Mississippi?

Or the union may have come right back together after five years if statesmen such as "Little Aleck" rose to power.

Either way, I believe Lincoln was wrong, and intentionally so in saying the war was over whether the union would survive.

It has survived the gaining of 37 additional states over time and it would have survived the loss of seven or 11 states if it had to.

Where did the word "effect" come from that you're arguing against?

Lincoln didn't use it. I don't think I did either.

[pretzel4gore]

48. but if 7/11 states could break away, why not 5 of the richest ones too?

i think that was the gist of Abe's argument; once the 'state' could dictate whether they in/out, the right became universal, and any little disagreement could see other blocs of states break away- in effect, for the south to separate, then the union must be dissolved, even if it could be maintained for awhile eventually something would come up, and....well Lincioln recognised in the 1860's era that the Union was sacred from the moment it was formed....an idea which stood alone and not just a bunch of agreements...the south was foolish to try dissolve the union on the grounds of slavery, which was the best thing Lincoln could have hoped for, and which the Southern brain trust tried to deny was the issue (if anyone notices, even today the bushbot type tries to claim it was about 'states rights' and not slavery-which anti Lincoln types often note was not what Lincoln considered the issue at all! Lincoln famously said if he could preserve union he's allow slavery, or allow part slavery, or outlaw slavery IT DID NOT MATTER as long as he could preserve the Union!) Even Lincoln chuckled about tying the Southern boors up in the knot they tied up themselves...hahaha! And as icing on the cake, the slaves were then made free! Of course, Abe was murdered pronto ....

[RoyGBiv]

57. Actually Lincoln did say this ...

Just not in the Gettysburg Address, although that concept is what he invoked when questioning whether the Union could long endure.

The idea was reflected in several of his policy positions. The notion that the Union could not survive unilateral secession was not new with him, of course. He simply inhereted the idea from others, and due to the circumstances of his Presidency, what had once essentially been a theory became a more imminent question. In an embryonic form, this was the issue involved in the Nullification Crisis, but it has roots deeper than that, pre-dating the Constitution itself and to some degree inspiring its development.

[Toots]

60. The war was fought over the Union surviving the principles of it's creatio

Lincoln said the USA (Union) was created four score and seven years ago on the notion that all men were created equal. The South was succeding because they did not recognize that. The whole war was fought over whether all men were equal or not and if not then the Union that was created under that principle would not survive. You can not have civil war and not be effected.

[RoyGBiv]

56. I disagree ...

The American Civil War was fought in no sense over issues of "equality." None but the most radical idealists would even have argued that it should be, much less that it actually was. One could argue -- and I would agree wholly with this -- that an internal war took place within the United States during the war that could be said to be about equality. Frederick Douglass, a leading proponent of racial equality, spent much of his efforts during the war waging this internal war, arguing that for Blacks to achieve the status of equals, they needed to be allowed to fight for their own freedom by joining the military officially as soldiers rather than just as general laborers. Notably his argument in favor of Blacks joining the army was nearly identical to the argument against it. That is, many in the Union feared just this, the idea that Blacks might consider themselves equal to Whites because they had served militarily.

It wasn't about social equality either. Leading Unionists of the day were by and large social elitists, many of whom in effect blamed the lower classes for allowing their passions to be incited to such a degree that war became inevitable.

[Toots]

61. The reason the South succeeded was because they did not believe all men

were equal. Lincoln stated it well in the Address when he said four score and seven years ago our fore fathers created a nation based on the idea all men were created equal. The whole point of the Civil War was whether that idea of all men being equal could survive. That nation would not survive if the South had managed to succeed. A nation would be here in fact two nations would be here but neither would be that nation of which Lincoln spoke so eloquently.

[RoyGBiv]

63. In a nutshell ...

Several Southern states seceded due to various disputes over issues related to the institution of slavery. The reason the United States went to war was to enforce federal law in areas that had claimed they were no longer subject to it, i.e. to dispute the notion that unilateral secession was valid. One could certainly argue that the Civil War may not have happened had equality been a fundamental concept put in practice within the nation as a whole, and in that sense, one could certainly say that the war was fought because of a lack of equality. But, the war was not fought "over" equality, in the sense of defining all men, regardless of race or social status, as equal based on the outcome. The concept of all men being created equal was a generalized ideal put forth in the nation's founding documents, but it was not an ideal realized or in very many ways even sought in the United States as a whole prior to Civil War.

Most people seem not to understand at all the context in which The Gettysburg Address was given. Prior to Gettysburg, war weariness in the Union was at a high mark. The New York City draft riots in which Blacks were targeted intentionally and murdered for their supposedly "causing" the war was fresh in Lincoln's mind. The twin Union victories of Vicksburg and Gettysburg relieved some of that weariness and gave many in the Union hope that the war wasn't lost and that their sons weren't dying in horrific numbers in vain, but one could not say that morale was incredibly high. Lincoln's words while dedicating the Gettysburg cemetery were intended to put the whole conflict into context and make it about something again, about something more than just acquisition of land or protecting a sterile theory of government. The speech is genius to be sure, but it did not completely reflect the actual reasons the war began or why it was fought by most people. That is, Lincoln was trying to convince people there was still a reason to fight the war, and the reason was to help achieve and perpetuate the high ideals of the founders.

[tabasco]

50. That's your opinion.

:dunce:

[Yupster]

51. Well yeah

I didn't survey the neighborhood. I typed my opinion. That's kinda what we all do - no?

[SnoopDog]

2. Thank you.

I remember that in grade school, we were to memorize this speech. I now only remember the first paragraph. It is the last sentences that mean so much.

[Guaranteed]

7. I'm not sure that some people really read closely what he's saying.

There's one sentence in particular that I think is extremely important, that often gets passed over:

"Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure."

Can this democracy thing work? Will we give up on its high ideals so easily?

[bleever]

6. Increased devotion to government of, by, and for the people.

That's why this is one of the greatest speeches in history. It's pretty simple; it's the essence of America.

[Guaranteed]

8. Absolutely. It's supposed to take work.

It's not supposed to be easy.

And, again, we will never totally destroy ignorance. But we have to keep fighting.

[0007]

9. Cough cough....of the people for the people and by the people

has been dead now for years. Wake up! It is now of the corporation for the corporation and by the corporation.

If you and looney tune like it that's fine, I don't give a fuck! It just doesn't fit the truth of the day.

[Guaranteed]

10. You're not listening to what he's saying. It's an IDEA.

And it's an idea that can be fought for- today.

Are you saying that you're giving up? Are you just going to go ahead and join the fascists?

I have no respect for that.

Alright, so you're tired. Well, drink some coffee, motherfucker. Get back out there.

There'll be plenty of time for rest when you're dead.

[Guaranteed]

11. "A new birth of freedom." nt

[originalpckelly]

12. Hillary Clinton will be President and there will be a Civil War;

I have foreseen it.

[Guaranteed]

13. Then buy guns.

And learn how to use them.

[nevergiveup]

15. Thanks B L G

I have not read this speech in years. Lincoln was indeed a good man. He had more empathy and compassion in his little toe than Chimpy has in his entire body.

[Guaranteed]

16. I just visited his home a few days ago.

It really gets to me, what this man did.

And people never even mention- as if it's just granted- that he, too, died for what he fought for.

[RevCheesehead]

17. An exceptional speech.

I think it should be read to Congress at every opening session. Skip the prayer, and read this instead.

Yup. A clergyperson advocating skipping prayer. O8)

[sproutster]

20. Ok, that just rocks :)

[WolverineDG]

30. I'll add to that

The Declaration of Independence & the Preamble to the Constitution to remind Congresscritters, the Judiciary & the Executive where they get their powers---the consent of the governed.

dg

[Yupster]

58. And if a state has a vote

and withdraws its consent as Texas did by an 80-20 vote in 1860-61, then they get squashed and forced back in whether they consent or not.

[kineneb]

18. It always brings tears to my eyes.

Too many of my ancestors were involved in that war. My grandmother told me stories about her uncles, who fought in the Union Army, and taught her the camp songs. My great-great grandfather left Germany in 1851, probably to avoid being in the Prussian army. He enlisted in the Union Army and was wounded in the Battle of Shiloh.

People forget that the US was only 71 years old when the Civil War started.

[Iowa]

53. kineneb, you've been around awhile...

...to be only three generations removed from Civil War vets. I'm four removed. My GG Grandfather was in the Union Army. My grandmother loved to sing this song. I think it may have been composed after the Civil War, but perhaps you have heard it:

TWO LITTLE BOYS

Two little boys
Had two little toys,
Each had a wooden horse;
Gaily they played
Each summer's day -
Warriors both of course.
One little chap
Then had a mishap,
Broke off his horse's head;
Cried for his toy,
Then cried for joy
As his young playmate said:

"Did you think I would leave you crying
When there's room on my horse for two?
Climb up here, Jack. we'll soon be flying;
I can go just as fast with two.
When we grow up we'll both be soldiers,
And our horses will not be toys;
And I wonder if we'll remember
When we were two little boys."


Long years passed,
War came so fast;
Bravely they marched away.
Cannons roared loud
And in the mad crowd
Wounded and dying lay.
Up went a shout -
A horse dashes out,
Out from the ranks so blue.
Galloped away
To where Joe lay
And then came a voice he knew:

"Did you think I would leave you dying
When there's room on my horse for two?
Climb up here, Joe, we'll soon be flying
Back to the ranks so blue.
Do you know, Joe, I'm all a-tremble,
Perhaps it's the battle's noise;
But I think it's that I remember
When we were two little boys."

[kineneb]

62. not around that long

I am four generations away, too. And thank for the song, it is one I did not know. My Mom's family tends to be long lived, so my grandparents grew up around the old geezers that had fought in the Civil War, most of whom probably lived into the 1920s. Grandma (1905-1998) and Papa (1898-1986) both lived to ripe old age. So family stories go way back in American history. My parents still have the Union Army rifle carried by one of Grandma's "uncles."

[linazelle]

19. Thank you for posting this. It is what real patriotism is all about.

Half of the flag wavers are blind to the facts that led to the US flag vs. the conferedate flag in the first place.

[CC]

21. I'm with Rev

instead of a prayer, this should be read before opening before opening session in Congress. It might cause some to think twice.

[OneBlueSky]

22. "government of the people, by the people, for the people" . . .

should be the Democratic campaign theme in 2006 and beyond . . . it's something we've lost and need to regain . . .

[theophilus]

44. THAT. IS. GENIUS. You need to make a separate thread with

this idea. If you don't, I will. This needs to be seen at the highest levels of the Democratic Party. Use that slogan. This "We can do better" crap won't convince a soul. Great job! :hi:

[saltpoint]

47. Agreed. It would be genuine and refreshing. And popular.

(and necessary!)

[OneBlueSky]

59. actually, I've initiated several posts that include this as . . .

one of three principles that all Democrates should run on . . .

1) Telling the Truth.

2) Upholding the Rule of Law.

3) Government of the People, By the People, and For the People.

got some responses, but then it died . . .

actually, I doubt that many Democratic candidates would agree to these principles . . . given that most of them are part of the system relies on falsehoods, regularly circumvents the law, and governs "Of the Corporations, By the Corporations, and For the Corporations." . . .

[saltpoint]

23. By context and content, Lincoln's Address at Gettysburg is the

single greatest document in the history of the United States.

Rev. Cheesehead's suggestion that it should be read before sessions of the U.S. Congress is the single greatest suggestion toward advancing liberty and democracy I have read on these boards.

Lincoln wrote this Address on a train en route to Gettysburg, some months after the battle itself. Months prior to the battle, the little agrarian town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania had passed an ordinance against firearms.

Students in middle and senior high schools are often asked to study the Address, even memorize it, because it is at once a broad and eloquent statement of purpose for the nation's existence and a great man's eulogy for those who died fighting in the struggle to preserve that nation. The Address is etched into marble at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, quite near the Vietnam Memorial, and anybody who is an American citizen who has not stood in person before that marble wall and regarded Lincoln's words has not, in my opinion, truly felt the impact of the American Revolution.

There was extraordinary, almost unbearable pain and suffering in the American Civil War but there is acknowledgment of that suffering and therefor redemption for all of us in Lincoln's words. I defy any Bush voter to show me one sentence in the sum of Dubya's service as president that matches Lincoln's.

The Address at Gettysburg is a masterpiece, both a duty and profound privilege to read.

[saltpoint]

24. .

[hootinholler]

26. I think this passage descibes our current state:

"Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. "

We are in the midst of the second civil war. A cold war, but war nonetheless.

-Hoot

[saltpoint]

27. Agreed, hootinholler. "So conceived and so dedicated..." Exactly.

Reading through this thread and enjoying Lincoln's Address again, I keep coming up against the wall of the Bush administration, and how little it knows of its own country's history of ideas.

Bush, nominally, is the party of Lincoln. But definitely not in spirit and range.

[NoPasaran]

29. Thanks for posting this

The negativity and cynicism displayed by some upthread really make me wonder what they think America is supposed to be.

[WolverineDG]

32. Hi NoPasaran!

And wouldn't ya know, they're from Texas too. :(

See you at the convention! :hi:

dg

[Gregorian]

33. Something scares me.

If we had a civil war over slavery, then I do not see what precludes civil war over the dividing factors in this country now.

Ignorant Bush-type lovers, racists, neocons, and the rest of the list are all worth fighting against. So far, we have accomplished almost nothing. I say that because as we sit here, the country is antiabortion, Mexican hating, war loving, non news spewing. We are building a 100 acre massive complex of oil stealing, freedom suppressing embassy in Iraq.

They have brought it down upon us.

[saltpoint]

34. Gregorian, your post prompted me to think about a possible campaign

theme for Democrats in the 06 midterms:

Bush promised to be a uniter and not a divider. Lincoln, the first (and last good) Republican, had the hardest job of all to unite the nation. Lincoln succeeded against impossible odds. Dubya failed with every advantage.

[wordpix2]

42. it will get scarier when we get Dem Congress & start impeachment proceed-

ings. Repukes are already hollering, "The Dems will impeach if they win, we can't let that happen!" If/when it does happen, there could be major turmoil including things like assassinations (remember RFK, MLK during Vietnam War), dirty tricks (we already have plenty but they could get worse) and police brutality and jailings during gatherings (as at Democratic Convention 1968).

So get ready, it might get worse before it gets better. Hopefully we will make a peaceful transition to a Democratic majority in Congress and then a Dem president, but it could get bad as impeachment proceeds. We really need to educate the sheeple because the more who are knowledgeable, the better for us in the days ahead.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

35. ALMOST as eloquent as 'fighting 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em

over here'!

[saltpoint]

36. Wait. You're comparing Lincoln's off-the-cuff, hackneyed speech

to the sublimities of enchanted oratory by our current president?

Blaspheme!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

38. Yea he wrote that shite on the back of an envelope, how good could it

have possibly been? :shrug:

[saltpoint]

39. LOL! O, Mayberry Machiavelli, I needed a good roaring laugh for

today. Inbetween DU posts here, I'm sending as many email letters as I can type to representatves trying to reverse the thinking on Iran.

But Lincoln brings to fore the contrast between people who are discerning and evolved beings and, as in the case of Dubya, spiritually flat, incurious, and un-nimble in associative context. Another day another dullard must be the Bush White House slogan.

And it hurts all of us to be judged by such a model, nevermind to have to endure the consequences of such a government.

Every now and then the History Channel or C-Span will re-play an address by John Kennedy. It's hurtful that presidents no longer take the care he did to make his public remarks substantive as well as presentational.

Loved your post. Loved the humor of it, the light shining through. Made my afternoon. Thanks.

[saltpoint]

43. B G L, I wanted to throw in a passage here from Gary Wills' book on

LINCOLN AT GETTYSBURG:

_ _ _

reveal an understandable pride in participation at the historic occasion. It was not enough for those who treasured their day at Gettysburg to have heard Lincoln speak, a privilege they shared with anywhere from ten to twenty-thousand other people, and an experience that lasted no more than three minutes. They wanted to be intimate with the gestation of that extraordinary speech, watching the pen or pencil move under the inspiration of the moment.
_ _ _

[bleever]

45. Lincoln with a Union victory finally at hand, and a few days left to live:

[saltpoint]

46. If ever a face revealed the history of events of its time...

Have to say, just the sight of this photograph compared to the impudent smirk on the nearly-unlined face of George W. Bush, makes me flush with anger at Dubya and homesickness for Lincoln.

No, I'm not THAT old. But for his dignity and range. That's what's missing.

Great photo, bleever. Thanks.

[tabasco]

49. Brilliant speech by a great American.

Lincoln honored and respected those who gave their lives against the forces of evil.

How different he was from Bush, who ghas disgraced our Nation and its ideals.

[saltpoint]

52. Yes, tabasco. I like your contrast a lot. Lincoln carried the weight of

a war he would loved to have averted. Dubya is insulated from a war that wasn't necessary.

And my god the difference in language!

[Honest_Abe]

54. Language...exactly.

Lincoln was born dirt poor, had less than a year of education, pondered the great issues, and made himself an eloquent speaker.
Dubya was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, had ALL the best education, ignored the great issues, and made himself illiterate.

[saltpoint]

55. Abe? Abe!? Is that you? My god in heaven!

Ok, so you're not the real Abraham Lincoln, but your post buoyed me. I've been reading clips of Dubya's endorsement of Rumsfeld today and am reminded of how far we've come from Lincoln.

And there you are in Indiana, one of Lincoln's homes.

I'd surely love to see the Republicans regain the soul of their party. I'd still be a Democrat, but it would be easier to take when my party's out of office. I'm not a poor sport, but George W. Bush is a disgrace.

[Yupster]

64. Well there were obvious ways to avoid the war

if Lincoln really wanted to.

[NNadir]

65. I recommend Gary Wills' "Lincoln at Gettysburg."

This is one of the most brilliant political exegesis of the Gettysburg Address I have ever read, and it details how the speech changed America forever.