war crimes indictments to be delivered to * tomorrow (tues.)

[G_j]

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/6572

INDICTMENTS TO BE DELIVERED TO THE WHITE HOUSE ON TUESDAY JAN. 10th
Submitted by davidswanson on Mon, 2006-01-09 18:28. Activism | Criminal Prosecution
From: International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration

TRIBUNAL INDICTS BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

INDICTMENTS TO BE DELIVERED TO THE WHITE HOUSE ON TUESDAY JAN. 10th

When: 1:30 p.m. January 10, 2006
Where: The White House, Front Gate
www.bushcommission.org
Contact: Connie Julian 917-449-9064, or Janet Yip 212-941-8086, or e-mail: [e-mail]

An unprecedented series of indictments alleging war crimes and crimes against humanity, in five separate areas, will be delivered to President Bush at the front gate of the White House this Tuesday, January 10th.

Named in the indictments are: President of the United States George W. Bush, Vice President Richard Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, U.S. Army Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, U.S. Army Major General Geoffrey Miller, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, et al.

The indictments will be delivered to the White House by: Retired CIA analyst Ray McGovern, authors William Blum and Larry Everest, Code Pink, Mike Hersh (Progressive Democrats of America/After Downing Street), Kevin Zeese (Director, Democracy Rising; candidate for U.S. Senate in Maryland), Travis Morales (World Can’t Wait--Drive Out the Bush Regime) and others TBA.

A press conference will follow delivery of indictments, which will also be delivered to the Department of Justice.

The indictments result from preparatory work and testimony presented in New York City in October 2005, before the International Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration which featured former UN envoy to Iraq Denis Halliday, Guantanamo prisoners’ lawyer Michael Ratner, and former State Department officer Anne Wright. The Commission's second tribunal will be held at Riverside Church and the Columbia University Law School in New York, January 20-22. Witnesses will include Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, former British ambassador Craig Murray, and former arms inspector Scott Ritter, among many more.

The indictments allege illegal acts authorized by the Bush Administration in relation to:

Wars of Aggression, particular reference to Iraq and Afghanistan; 2) Torture and Indefinite Detention; 3) Destruction of the Global Environment, particular reference to distortion of science and obstruction of international efforts to stem global warming;

Attacks on Global Public Health and Reproductive Rights, particular reference to the potentially genocidal effects of enforcing abstinence only, global gag rule, distortion of science, and restriction of generic drugs; and

Failure of Bush administration, despite foreknowledge, to protect life during and after Hurricane Katrina. Appended to these indictments will be the demand for investigation of the war crimes of Tony Blair and George Bush submitted by prominent British citizens to the UN Secretary General and the UK Attorney General. The commission was organized by the Not in Our Name Statement of Conscience and is endorsed by: Center for Constitutional Rights, National Lawyers Guild, After Downing Street.Org and others, including Former Sen. James Abourezk, former British MP Tony Benn, authors Gore Vidal and Howard Zinn, poet Lawrence Ferlinghetti, and actor Edward Asner.

Charter, full indictments, standards for judgment, and audio and video coverage of the first session: http://www.bushcommission.org

[meisje]

1. Too bad they aren't worth the paper they are printed on

[stepnw1f]

3. You Really Think That? (nt)

[ClassWarrior]

12. The truth isn't worth the paper it's printed on?

Up for a book burning, are we?

NGU.

[Mr_Spock]

14. And now for news of the redundant and obvious...

:eyes:

[0007]

96. Sir, are you mocking junior and his statement about the

Constitution just being a "goddamn piece of paper" or are you being pessimistic and mean spirited?

[wordpix]

2. wonder if M$M will be covering instead of honeymoon groom overboard

[dweller]

6. do you really have to ask that? n/t

dp

[FreedomAngel82]

75. Really

I was curious so I turned it on Joe Scarborough's show and guess what he was talking about at that moment?

[G_j]

9. Just as they essentially censored the Lancet report because it showed

mass murder, we will not hear the words "war crimes" from the corporate media in reference to Bush until hell freezes over. That is a given.

But you can rest assured somebody is paying attention!

[toymachines]

20. unfortunately it is mostly us who are paying attention

and we already know

[Ksec]

4. Michael Jackson will be spanking his monkey

Sorry people. The Jackson story gets priority.

[sakabatou]

5. I wonder how this will play out

[karlrschneider]

7. Out of sight, out of mind.

:eyes:

[NYC Liberal]

8. These are going to go right into the shredders at the WH,

unfortunately.

[Clara T]

10. Gotta do it

rec'd

[upi402]

11. TV news will cover a missing white chick

and Faux will call then unAmerican.

[Oversea Visitor]

13. Millions of people will read it

Truth cant be buried.

[mom cat]

53. I agree with you. All of these efforts are adding up. This one document

may not be the final straw, but it will add more weight.It is important to call war crimes exactly what they are and I am proud of these people for speaking out.

[Imagevision]

74. Exactly! -- what do you think? silence is better? The "I" word the more

it's heard the better for the country - how can it be stupid? -- this is a runaway renegade admistration!
they follow the laws the choose and blame others when they don't

[mom cat]

113. Good point. Something needs to be heard a lot before it is accepted.

We have to keep talking about war crimes, because war crimes have been committed. We can not become the American equvalent of "good Germans". We can see so easily the results of their silence. We must not go down that path.

[Karmakaze]

15. Why oh why do they keep doing stupid stuff like this?

They had a great idea and ruined it.

There is a perfectly valid case under international law for the Bush admin to be charged with war crimes, and if they had stuck to that then this act may have really meant something. But oh no, lets add in some ridiculous stuff like "Destruction of the Global Environment" just to make sure no one gets the idea that this is a REAL charge and not just a publicity stunt.

Worse still, they have now ruined it for anyone who would try this SERIOUSLY. Now the media can just say "destruction of global environment" to taint any attempt to bring REAL war crimes charges against the Bush admin.

Damn fools - or was there a mole in their midst making sure GENUINE charges get swamped with crap?

[G_j]

18. LOL

leave it to a keyboard warrior to call the Center for Constitutional Rights, National Lawyers Guild, Former Sen. James Abourezk, former British MP Tony Benn, Gore Vidal, Howard Zinn, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Edward Asner, Ray McGovern, Michael Ratner and so many others fools.

they have now ruined it for everyone!!!!!
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Karmakaze]

27. Well woopdy friggin do...

I couldnt give a shit who is involved - the fact is they took a perfectly good idea and ruined it. If they had written up a formal LEGAL document that included only REAL CRIMES, they could have questioned why such crimes were being ignored. But oh no they had to add in things that are not even remotely crimes in the legal sense and are hot-button issues that give right leaning moderates no wiggle room to justify supporting it, and make it possible for the media to belittle the whole idea.

A completely reasoned document with legal justifications as would be presented to any court would have had so much more power than this that it makes me cringe to see them make a mockery of the idea.

But seeing as you think it is such a great idea, tell me, how much of an impact do you think this is gonna have? I say it will have about as much impact as this post.

[radio4progressives]

50. Turn the Question Around at You..Karmakaze

How effective has your GREAT idea been? How far down the road towards the shared goal have you managed to accomplish?

It's this kind of crap that turned this country into a right wing fascists police state.

Appeasing the fascists hasn't worked so far, or haven't you noticed?

the time to try something different has long been at hand, except for the nay sayers like you who does the work on behalf of the fascists by denigrating and demeaning anyone else's attempt to make a difference that has significance and meaning.

Whether or not it works, IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

editing for clarification

[G_j]

51. wish I could have said that as well

it really is not the point.
we must at least get off our asses and make an effort.
I can only imagine what so-called realists were telling MLK.

[Karmakaze]

73. Success is not the point?

Oh well why the fuck bother then? I mean seriosuly? Who cares whether all this has ANY AFFECT WHATSOEVER, after all it was fun to play at lawyers and courts. We don't REALLY want to stir the pot now do we?

I mean real charges of real laws being broken handed to real courts, might just spoil all that fun we are having.

[G_j]

102. of course "success" is desirable

but the odds are ALWAYS against us in every effort we take. If we based our actions on chances of success, there would be no actions. On every front we fight against the odds.

I appreciate that you have taken the time to explain your views.
I think the argument is valid in as far as a discussion of tactics is concerned. There are obviously those who do not think actions that in part rely on symbolism are productive. That is where we see things very differently. I and the myriad groups and individuals that support this effort obviously think it is productive. There is a tradition of symbolic action in the US and the world, in recent times being most famously used by people such as Gandhi and MLK.
For me it is not about relying on one tactic, but working on every possible front. All the decks are stacked against us.

There are some actions that I see as probably ineffective, and this is where my problem lies in this discussion: I will not spend energy belittling and dismissing people's efforts. I would be happy to discuss strategy for it is a relevant and productive topic, but I won't put-down other's genuine efforts as "useless" "delusional" "fantasy" "silly" etc. It simply is not productive and works more toward paralyzation than empowerment.

My problem with some of the dismissive posts here is the attitude, not that we differ on what we think about tactics.
There have been a number of comments that have expressed outright disdain for the people involved with this commission. Call me.. whatever, but I have almost zero patience for such attitudes. If I have resorted to some disdainful comments myself,I apologize.

I will just add that I don't for a minute believe that, regardless of the effectiveness of the 'commission's' efforts in this, that this can possibly "ruin" future legal charges brought against the Bush admin.
That just doesn't make sense. I don't think there is any historic basis for that assertion.



peace G_j

[Karmakaze]

72. What great idea? You mean the same one these people ruined?

How in hell is calling for a strictly LEGAL case being made against the Bush admin, one that is actually filed witht the courts and is actionable by them, "appeasing the facists"???

It is stunts like THIS that allow the facists to continue getting away with it. Take a legal case and turn it into a stunt that NO COURT could ever possibly rule in favour of. Very useful. Oh and now the media can call everyone involved a bunch of Bush hating whackos that don;t even know what a law is. Very smart.

But I am the one who is making things easy for the facists?

Don't make me laugh.

"Whether or not it works, IS NOT THE FUCKING POINT."

What the hell? Then what IS the point? To fuck around and look like a bunch of idiots? To convice people like you and me, who need no convincing, that the Bush cabal are a Bunch of criminals? Great help that is.

I thought the point was to convince those NOT ALREADY CONVINCED that the Bush cabal were criminals. The way to do that is with REAL CHARGES based on REAL LAWS, handed to REAL COURTS. Not some kangaroo charges, based on laws that don't even exist and ruled upon by a bunch of people the media will have no problem labelling as "Bush hating leftists with no grasp of law".

[Sparkman]

59. Many Dist. Attourney's pad indictments with false charges...yet prevail

It's a VERY COMMON tactic by prosecutors to include charges that may be true, but not actionable in the jury courts. So, at least it's a written compendium of crimes neocon.

[Karmakaze]

71. Bull...

Even attempting to file a charge for an act that doesn't even contravene any known law would result in the entire case being thrown out.

[EFerrari]

81. Sparkman didn't say that.

He said padding was a common practice, and he is right.

While I wait for you to come up with a perfect solution, today I CELEBRATE that so many people cared enough to get off of their asses and make this gesture possible.

If we get labeled as Bush hating leftists, well, we are. I have no problem being called by my own name.

:rofl:

[DemonFighterLives]

98. You don't even call me by my name

You don't even call me- there's a country song here somewhere.
:rofl:

[EFerrari]

107. LOL!

:rofl:

[DemonFighterLives]

21. I don't see it that way

I think the global environment thing goes to dubby's general disregard for life on Earth. I don't know if the case mentions Depleted Uranium, but spreading that crap all over the Mid East can't be good. Getting out of treaties like Nuclear Proliferation and Test Bans do not help the world.
Since I'm in here, I shall make a few other comments.
Karpinski and Ritter on board, who are heavyweights in my mind. Neither would naturally be against the dubya Regime, except that they have been used and kicked to the curb and in general are standing up for truth and justice.
I don't know how far this will take us toward getting rid of dubco, but everything needs to be tried and I don't see how it ruins anything. It may even put a bug in the ears of the world to press these issues.

[G_j]

23. thanks

I checked in last night and found that for the second time (I posted an earlier press release a few days ago) people were ridiculing this, "not worth the paper... they'll throw it in the garbage...the press will ignore it...a waste of time, etc. In the other thread someone even called Howard Zinn a dimwit!

And well, it just pissed me off. :argh:

I appreciate your reasoned post as I am not able to hide my disgust at this point.

[Karmakaze]

28. You dont get my point....

there is no law against withdrawing from treaties. There is no law against not joining Kyoto. There is no law against policies that ignopre global warming. So how can he be "charged" with breaking a law that doesn't exist?

If they had stuck to a strictly legal document documenting actual indictable crimes, they could file the document with any and every court they could and demand to know why Bush was not being investigated or charged for those crimes. By adding in "crimes" that are not real the simple answer (ie the one the the media will push) is "because it is not a crime".

As for how it ruins it for others, well if you were to go down the courthouse after this and press charges against Bush for war crimes, you would be laughed out of the building as another of those kooks. Can you imagine a judge seeing a finding by a "commision of inquiry" that had no legal standing as anything but an afront to the legal system? And then add to that the fact that many of the charges are not even based on any law, and the whole idea just goes up in smoke.

The fact is there is a perfectly valid legal case, even under American law, to press war crimes charges against the Bush admin. This stunt has done nothing to help such an act occur, and in fact has hindered it.

[DemonFighterLives]

31. Not saying you don't have a point

but I fail to see how it hindered anything. This is useful in raising awareness. I'm not saying all these accusations have the potential for a court case. The court of public opinion is definitely in the game.

Any potential judge could not hold this event against any legally submitted case. The so called Kooks could still serve as witnesses and it would be up to a jury to decide who is valid and who is not. I'm no legal expert, but I just got off of jury duty, so I think that is one step better than sleeping in a Holiday Inn.

To anyone's knowledge is this case or any other war crimes case being forwarded?

[mom cat]

52. Destruction of the global environment is a huge crime against humanity

and will be the source of its ultimate self-destruction.Just because there is not an established set of international laws that say so does not reduce the truth that certain commercial and political interests are knowingly escalating the destruction of the planet. I applaud the ones who have the courage to stand up and say so.

[Sgent]

16. Couldn't they at least find

a country to do the indictment? An indictment by N. Korea or Cuba has more weight than one by Code Pink.

[rman]

35. Equating this Commission to "Code Pink" is downplaying its significance

"After Downing Street" is but one of the supporters, and the after Downing street coalition is huge:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/coalition

Gold Star Families for Peace
Veterans for Peace
Iraq Veterans Against the War
US Tour of Duty: Iraq Veterans and Military Families Demand the Truth
Military Families Against the War (UK)
Rainbow/PUSH
Progressive Democrats of America
Global Exchange
Democrats.com
Code Pink
California for Democracy
Justice Through Music
Stop the War Coalition (UK)
Bedford Stop the War (UK)
Truthtelling Project
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity
Citizens for Legitimate Government
VA Grassroots
Montgomery County, MD Progressive Alliance
Orange County, CA Grassroots
Sacramento, CA for Democracy
Progressive Democrats of America, VA
Democracy Rising
Velvet Revolution
Do Not Concede
Peace Majority
Backbone Campaign
Impeach Central
Impeach Bush Meetup
Grassroots Northshore, Milwaukee, WI
Fox Valley, IL Citizens for Peace and Justice
Historians Against the War
Chester County, PA Peace Movement
Peninsula Peace and Justice Center, Palo Alto, PA
Environmentalists Against War
Birmingham, AL Democracy for America Meetup
Radical Sages
Lake Merritt Neighbors Organized for Peace, Oakland, CA
World Prout Assembly
Democratic Renewal
Liberal Kids
Democratic Underground
No Mandate
AZ Vote
Toronto Coalition to Stop the War (Canada)
Peaceroots
Military Free Zone
Peace Action, WI
NW Progressive Institute
Election Solar Bus
Independent Progressive Politics Network
Stop the War (UK)
Skagit County Green Party
Gap Sucks
Earth Island Institute
Think Blue Dems
A Bigger Tent
South Mountain Peace Action, Montclair, NJ
Bring Democracy Back
Unitarian Universalist Peace and Justice Group, Nantucket, MA
East Cobb Democratic Alliance, Cobb County, GA
Patriots for Gore
Clothing of the American Mind
United for Veterans, Wayne, MI
One Global Community
Louisiana Activist Network
Northeast Georgia Peace Corner Group, Helen, GA

Bird Dogger
People's Email Network
Out of Iraq
Why Are We Back in Iraq?
SoapBox4Truth
Bring Them Home
CindySheehan.com
Global Resistance Network
Mission Not Accomplished
Blue State News Only
Coalition Against Election Fraud
San Diego for Democracy
Summit County (OH) Progressive Democrats
Taking the Fight to Karl
The Left Wing
Cities for Peace
Michigan Peace Works
Leader of the Free Word - a great screen saver
Democracy Action
DC Anti-War Network
Progressive Action Alliance
True Blue Liberal
Earth Day
Northwest Ohio Peace Coalition
One Million Reasons
Not in Our Name
Republicans for Humility
Peace Action
Veterans for Peace, Chapter 27
Boston Mobilization
MWC News
Upbeat Defiance
Downtown Magazine
Playing in Traffic
Bring Em Home
Voters Evolt
Progressive Action Center
TV News Lies
Truth Empowered
United Blue USA
Bring Them Home
Coalition for Impeachment Now (COIN)
Children of Iraq Association
The Known UnKnowns
CampU.S. Strike for Peace Campaign
Metaphoria
Citizens for Accountability on Iraq
Carolina Peace Resource Center
Green Party of Clallam Co., WA.
The Hip Hop Caucus
CartoonFreeAmerica
Operation Cease Fire
Underground Action Alliance
Summit County Progressive Democrats
Students Towards a New Direction (STAND)
Eastern Long Island Democracy for America
Latinos for America
Impeach Bush Coalition
Butterfly Gardeners Association
Be the Change
Politics and Art
Central Colorado Coalition on the Iraq War
Patrick Henry Democratic Club
Musicians and Fine Artists for World Peace
America In Solidarity
Consumers for Peace
Southern California District of the Communist Party
Peace and Justice Action League of Spokane

Partial List of Individual Members (institutions appear for identification purposes only)

Veterans/Military family members
Aaron Fogl, former Marine
Tom Krebsbach, Vietnam veteran, Brier, WA
James Starowicz, Vietnam veteran, Kannapolis, NC
John H. St. John, World War II veteran
Alan A. Nakamura, veteran
Carol Korreck, member, Military Families Speak Out
Lietta and Arthur Ruger, members, Military Families Speak Out, with two combat Iraq Veteran loved ones facing second deployments in Iraq
Impeachster
Days
Walt Kosty
James Vaughn
Elaine Supkis
Madeleine Begun Kane
Dahlia Wasfi
PeaceNuts.us: No War
The Armchair Activist
Linda McCarthy, Chair of the Democratic Committee in Derry, NH.
One Veteran's Voice
Brad Newsham, Oakland, Calif.
Liberal Girl Nextdoor
W Terry Leichner, RN, Marine combat veteran of Vietnam, Vietnam Veterans Against the War activist since 1971 in Denver
Pamela Kraemer

Authors/Academics/Others
Daniel Ellsberg, director, Truth Telling Project
Ann Wright, career Foreign Service officer; former Deputy Chief of Mission, Mongolia
Marcus Raskin, co-founder of the Institute for Policy Studies
David Sirota, writer and political consultant
Bernard Chazelle, professor of computer science, Princeton University
William Rivers Pitt, author and journalist
Lawrence Velvel, dean, Massachusetts School of Law
Al Feldstein, artist, former editor, MAD Magazine
Jill Sobule, recording artist
Rahul Mahajan, author and activist
Paul Rogat Loeb, author
John Gideon, voting activist and writer
Larisa Alexandrovna, poet and journalist
David MacMichael, member, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) steering committee
Grace Reid, researcher and writer
Dana Briggs, national board director, Veterans for Peace, Kirkland, WA
Cindy Bogard, professor, Hofstra University
Joel Wendland, managing editor, Political Affairs magazine; member, UAW Local 1981
David Michael Green, professor of political science, Hofstra University
Robert Shetterly, artist and author, Americans Who Tell the Truth
Dave Lindorff, author
Dennis Mansker, author
Roger Drowne, artist
David Morrison, author (UK)
John McConnell, Founder of Earth Day
Mark Drolette, political satirist
Larry Johnson
Vivian Greentree, journalist.
Coco Tralla, Tralla Productions.
ProgressiveReader.org
Brad Newsham, author: All the Right Places, Take Me With You; initiator: The Impeachment Pledge
Mark Whitecage
Joaquin Ramon Herrera, author

Media

Big Brass Alliance
Black Commentator
Thom Hartmann
Outrage Radio
Radio News America
Bartcop
The Brad Show
Buzzflash
Cooperative Research
Rapid Response Network
Eyes of Babylon
MWC News Magazine
Talk Left
Online Journal
Mavarot News
Alien Love
Radio Left
Patriot Daily
DemLog
Stroll Thither
OpEd News
War Times / Tiempo de Guerras
BellaCiao
FlyBy News
Really News
Dahr Jamail's Iraq Dispatches
Doug Ireland
Gabriele Zamparini
Cage Prisoners
Today in Iraq
Empire Burlesque
Liberty Stickers
Page One Q
Defend USA
Impeach Bush TV
Bush Is to Blame
Middlemost Post
Adeeb Media
Adeeb Press

[SlipperySlope]

44. It is impossible to downplay the signficance of this "commission"

Even calling them a "commission" overstates their significance. Come on people, get real, don't play around in fantasy land.

[G_j]

45. "fantasy", "delusional"

that is quite deep
Are we to dismiss all these people because of a few nebulous words from you?

[SlipperySlope]

46. Not trying to be deep

Deepness is sometimes overrated.

These people are over the deep end. Their make-believe court is as relevant as a classroom of preschoolers issuing a writ demanding permanant vacation.

This is not the way to make change, but I guess if it makes you happy, go for it. If I'm going to read web pages as completely delusional as that one, I'd prefer to read some where the last five years never even happened.

[meganmonkey]

49. Actually, what is over the deep end

is an administration committing war atrocities every day in our name with our tax dollars, and a nation sitting by and watching it happen.

You refer to their court being make-believe. Well what are the legitimate options anymore? Our elections are a fricking joke, the congress is relatively useless, where do we go from here?

I am not saying I know all the answers about making change, but you say this isn't it. So what's your idea? Is it working yet? Because I am getting pretty impatient with the way things are going, I don't know about you. I am sick of daily heartbreak when I hear about Iraqi civilians getting killed and reporters getting kidnapped and soldiers dying for NO noble cause.

I think these people deserve much more respect than they are getting here.

[DemonFighterLives]

56. That is just sick

no offense.

[EFerrari]

84. Tell you what. You go ahead and read web pages.

And I'll go ahead with public protest.

Whoever effects change first, wins. :)

[DemonFighterLives]

54. Impressive- thanks

no wonder dubby is polling so low.
:yourock:

[EFerrari]

83. Interesting. Why would an indictment in a foreign country

have more heft than an indictment by a group of concerned American citizens.

*WE* need to stop drinking the Kook Aide and start taking ourselves seriously.

[Dave Reynolds]

17. So, these will be handed to a guard at the gate,

who will promptly pitch them in the trash.

I agree that the Bush gang are war criminals, but unfortunately these people are just delivering paper in a gesture.

I'm willing to bet we will not hear about it.

[EFerrari]

86. The inauguration is also only a gesture.

Gestures are important. It's partly what distinguishes human culture from the other greater apes.

And knowing that this gesture has been made does put pressure on BushCo.

This is how we stopped Viet Nam. With gestures.

[G_j]

19. man this thread demonstrates some of the worst DU

has to offer.

So much fucking negativity!

:puke:

[DemonFighterLives]

22. I see what you mean - but not me

These people are heavyweights and can only be ignored so long.
Anyone who wants to bury their heads in the sand, so be it.
I hope they have other plans up their sleeve besides the Symbolic Gate Handoff.

:thumbsup:
:bounce:

[G_j]

24. heavyweights they are

& the the second session of the commission hearing, January 20-22, sounds like it will be quite compelling.

[DemonFighterLives]

25. Dubya and the gang have formed against them a

circular firing squad. They have pissed off people from so many different walks and persuasions, that the crossfire is going to be something else.
:nuke:

[G_j]

26. yep

they have REALLY pissed off some people and they are by no means just Democrats.

[Karenina]

39. Indeed.

ANY PHOTOS FROM TODAY????

[Karmakaze]

29. As long as they keep playing games, they can be ignored indefinitely

First of all, creating a kangaroo court is gonna go down well with REAL judges, isn't it? Then handing out "indictments" for acts that are not even crimes is gonna get this laughed out of ANY court.

If they stick to real actionable CRIMES (as in breaches of actual laws) then they might get somewhere.

[DemonFighterLives]

32. as stated in my other reply

I don't see how this act can backfire on people trying to raise awareness among the public. If and when bushco is tried for war crimes, the credibility of these people can be questioned, but I also think the facts of the crimes seriousness will make retaliation against these folks frivolous.

[Karmakaze]

76. Yeah, why do anything with real meaning?

As long as we are positive about our totally meaningless futile stunts things are SO MUCH BETTER!

All those brains that could have been used to file REAL CHARGES against the Bush admin in a REAL COURT wasted on such positive fun and games! Who could EVER be negative about that?

[EFerrari]

87. No matter how many times you post that this was

a meaningless stunt, you can't make it so.

Futility is in the eye of the beholder. By the same logic, Rosa Parks should have just gotten the hell out of her seat.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

85. That's it! Get it out of your system.

LOL!

[Karmakaze]

30. Here is the indictment....

http://www.bushcommission.org/indictments.htm

If they had left out the middle two sections, "Destruction of the Global Environment" and "Attacks on Global Public Health", neither of which in any way describe the breaking of any ACTUAL LAW, then this would be a damn good document to file in an actual courthouse (rather than the White House garbage bin).

Tell me, what law has been broken by "Denial and Distortion of Scientific Consensus and Findings" or "Obstructionism on International Efforts"? What is a real court to do with such an "indictment"? The answer is toss it out and say that if people don't like POLICY decisions such as this they should vote him out.

However, "The Bush administration authorized a war of aggression against Iraq" is an actual crime under international law (and therefore those parts of American law that enact international law) A court can actually listen to arguments based on such charges because there is a potential breach of an ACTUAL LAW.

If these people are as smart as we all know them to be, they will dump this stuff that can't be acted on by the courts and stick to the stuff that can.

[DemonFighterLives]

34. I think you are right there, but thinking of them as kooks

and saying that they have totally lost any chance of a real case is, I'm searching for a word, a stretch.
:-)

[Karmakaze]

68. I didnt mean I thought they were kooks - I meant that is what the media...

will call them and point at the indictments for crimes that don't even exist as proof. You will not hear about the stuff that is real and provable, all you or anyone else will here from the media is the environmental stuff.

In other words, the right has been HANDED their talking points.

And once one indictment is called a kooky enviro-whacko stunt, they will ALL be painted that way.

[DemonFighterLives]

99. I was going to reply to your other post

You seem more hateful and angered by this group than anyone else.
For the right to continue to paint environmentalists as kooks or treehuggers is a mistake on their part. Don't buy into it. Only limbaugh sheep follow the enviro nazi and feminazi crap. If pollution is not good for anyone, how long can the luddites follow their destructive policies?
Let em talk, the world won't believe them. The tide in turning. The culture of corruption is going down. There are your talking points.
:dem:

[rman]

36. So you're saying they can just get away with

"Destruction of the Global Environment" and "Attacks on Global Public Health"?

No court would indict them no matter how much evidence is presented in support of those accusations?

I think history will show that they do stand convicted in the public court.
Courts are there to serve The People (that would be "us"). If they fail to serve their purpose, they'll have to be repaired.

[Karmakaze]

69. Are you serious????

Of course NO COURT can, will or SHOULD convict someone of a crime that doesn't even exist! This is my whole point! It is absolutely crazy to think otherwise. Sure those things are terrible, and should have resulted in Bush never being voted for by anyone, BUT they are not crimes.

Stick to actual crimes and the press can't paint the "indictment" as coming from nothing but a bunch of fringe lefties who don't even know what a law is.

Like I said, a good idea ruined by silly stunts.

[Cults4Bush]

37. Hey since you have it all figured out and exactly how it should and would

have worked and you are obviously worked up enough to post up and down about it, why dont you go ahead and do it yourself?

Seriously. You go ahead and appoint yourself chief of the anti-war movement and go do it the rightist way possible, your way.

The thing is even if the articles that have so enrage dyou were left out the reactions from the bulk of the people would have been the same. I know for a fact that multiple lawyers looked at this and Im sure they came to the same conclusion.

What is important here is cause and coalition not the individual articles. The overall cause is 100% just, and the coalition is massive and lined with heavies.

Seriously take my suggestion and do all that you can to make sure you have a say the next time a document is handed down of similar nature ( I know you said its basically ruined everyone elses chances down the road but if you honestly believed that I dont think you'd be caring so much about it). This means you have to get extremely active within a key org like CodePink or PDA. Nothing wrong with your gripes here, but please do something about it instead of just griping.

[Karmakaze]

70. I would if I could...

but I am a New Zealander. Of course Im sure that will make the "shoot the messenger" crowd even more rabid. The fact is that a great idea was ruined. No one has yet shown how I am wrong except to get all up in arms that I dared to question the tactics employed.

The point I am making and have been making from the very beginning is a strictly LEGAL case could be made against the Bush admin, and this was a damn good opportunity to do it. But by adding in this stuff they are going to ruin it. I am surprised that lawyers signed off on such ridiculous "indictments" which do nothing but serve to dillute the impact of the REAL legal charges made in that document.

[Djinn]

77. worst forum comeback #1

"please do something about it instead of just griping"

none of us know what anyone else is "doing" assuming because someone thinks something is a bad idea that they do nothing but "gripe" is non sequitur, if you're discussing how you feel about BUsh (presumably it wouldn't be flattering) are you proving all you do is gripe? of course not.

karmakaze makes a good point, apart from asserting that he/she "should do something" no-one has addressed his valid critcism.

[EFerrari]

88. Karmakaze's point was good how, exactly?

It's that kind of negativity that makes people do nothing rather than risk doing the wrong thing.

And, we see exactly where that has gotten us.

Is that direct enough? That is was Cults was getting at.

[Djinn]

108. yeah you're right

people saying anything at all on a message board read by maybe 10,000 people (assuming that everyone currently posting here has read this thread) is going to convince anyone to do or not to do anything :eyes:

[Cults4Bush]

101. worst forum comeback #2

attack a piece of common sense because it doesnt fit into your stylized mode of board etiquette. I broke no rules here and I didnt call them a Nazi. Please step off my ass. Karma griped up and down this thread six ways to Sunday. They have been given a legitimate answer several times an answer every bit as legitimate as the question. They just havent accepted it.

Karmakaze stated they are in NZ, so they are sorta ineffective to us over here in both physical protest and petition. Regarding bringing charges against our psychotic govt that is. What they could do is get involved with some of the international groups or try very hard to assert themselves online with one of these groups. Honestly this is armchairing in a big way and just because the gripe might be legitimate doesn't mean its not.

Did you know that there is at least one lawsuit that was brought against Bush last year by a lawyer in CO? Do you remember Conyers dropping off our 500,000 sigs for the DSMs? Nothing happened on the part of the administration but a lot more people started paying attention. Actions like this are in of themselves just a way to advertise. I dont think anyone really thought this would do more than get a nominal mention if they were lucky. Even minus Karmas incredibly upset tone over the inclusion of the truths of our poisoning this planet (which isn't the problem as much as disrupting and refusing to sign on to environment accords). The legality of the whole thing was not really ever an issue. As nothing was going to be done because of this document other than showing we are not alone, but I guess the two little gripes (yes gripes) ruined the whole thing now everyone thinks they are alone and the world is ruined.

Sadly that is all there is to address karmas "valid criticism". I mean c'mon even if those two gripes weren't in there no one but no one was going to take this anymore seriously than they would have before. Well maybe a few...

As I said if Karma or you or anyone is actually serious about your accusations of how this completely screwed everything up and now its ruined for all the next people who really want to take bushco to court (which I 100% doubt and disagree with) then get involved with these groups so that you have an effective say or can launch a campaign from within to strike such statements if you think they are going to ruin the entire movement. I was able to make the assumption that Karma wasn't doing something with these groups from their posts/ I was not wrong in that no matter how you try and frame me up as a bad poster.

In the end I think if someone really cares about something they would do something more to change it other than just gripe about it on a message board, instead they made it a point about how this sucks when it really doesn't and essentially tried to make everyone feel like shit about this pretty cool event. gripe fucking gripe ... gripe gripe gripe. I love how you get to decide what the worst forum comeback is, just becuase it suits your needs. lol...

[Djinn]

109. sigh

attack a piece of common sense because it doesnt fit into your stylized mode of board etiquette

actually he attacked trying to "indict" someone for a crme that does not exist - perfectly valid and nothing to do with "etiquette", if you were referring to me, well if you think that was an "attack" then sheesh you've led a very nice comfortable life

I broke no rules here and I didnt call them a Nazi.

who said you did?

Please step off my ass.

no-one's on your ass, no more than your "on" karmakaze's, if you feel perhaps you have something on your ass can I suggest seeing a doctor

They have been given a legitimate answer several times an answer every bit as legitimate as the question. They just havent accepted it.

nope there is no "legitimate" answer, he said "it's not a crime" and it ISN'T

In the end I think if someone really cares about something they would do something more to change it other than just gripe about it on a message board, instead they made it a point about how this sucks when it really doesn't and essentially tried to make everyone feel like shit about this pretty cool event. gripe fucking gripe ... gripe gripe gripe.

and you have NO way of knowing what karmekaze does with their time

I love how you get to decide what the worst forum comeback is, just becuase it suits your needs. lol...

no it's an opinion - just as yours is and I don't beleive anyone told you you couldn't have it, or that it was "funny" that you could post it just because "you decide"

get over yourself

[Cults4Bush]

110. lol, I was refering to you but thats ok.

I didnt mind Karmas questioning. I gave them an answer which you said I didin't do or anybody didnt do... and then you attacked me for suggesting they actually get involved instead of just critiqeuing a thread that was ostensibly good news.

Poisoning the environment is a crime, you dont have to have a law against something in order for it to be criminal in the minds of many. I also further reiterated (ie as in once again) What this was about. I belive Karma and now you have over reacted but meh, I just dont care anymore, you all go ahead and knock the fuck out of things like this just becuase it doesnt meet your absolute criteria and in the ned I trust the people behind this than Id trust either of you. Go on gripe.. gripe to gripe to gripe and dont give any credit to where its due, the fact is it is easy to criticize when you are not doing it. That was my point which as ever as much as a salient point as yours.

You are the one who attacked me please get over yourself or just put me on ignore if Im really that offensive.

[Mugsy]

33. When someone commits a crime, you don't alert the criminal.

That's just stupid.

When someone commits a crime, you don't go to the criminal and tell them that's you're going to turn them in. You go to the police... which in this analogy would be Congress... and tell THEM to investigate the crime.

When Arthur Anderson, the accounting firm for Enron, was told there would be an investigation, they drove in an industrial shredder and started destroying all the evidence (often not even bothing to remove the files from the metal filing cabinets, opting instead just to shred the files, steel filing cabinet and all.

[meganmonkey]

55. That makes sense in theory

but in the reality of today, Congress is worth about jack-shit when it comes to stopping this war. All legitimate methods of getting rid of this criminal administration are useless. Our elections? Puh-leaze. Congress? They are far too 'careful' to rock the boat enough to actually end this war. Meanwhile more and more people are dying. What are the people, who are supposed to ultimately be in charge of this deMOCKracy, supposed to do?

I don't know the way to end this war and to get the criminals in the WH locked away. But I know it takes creativity, and it takes all kinds of people doing all kinds of things. This is one step.

As for telling the criminal about turning them in, they know how corrupt they are, and they know that some of us know it. And they probably laugh and laugh and laugh about the fact that we can do NOTHING about it.

These people are patriots for trying to do this, IMO.

:patriot:

[EFerrari]

89. I can't effen BELIEVE what I'm reading on this thread.

FYI: these indictments were drafted and delivered in concert with House Reps who have written to the White House demanding a select committee and an independent investigation. And those reps include Pelosi, Hoyer, Waxman and Conyers.

Before you embarrass yourself by calling activists "stupid", it might be a good idea to check your facts.

Geezus.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. Silly people. How dare they dissent against fascism.

We have to be polite, courteous, or, preferably silent.

[Djinn]

80. because the only options available

are to be silent in the face of fascism or to do something that is of purely symbolic value if that?

going back to the Nazi's European tour, if you wanted to object (the price to be paid being considerably higher, instead of ridicule, ostracism or at most imprisonment, you'd face death) you joined the resistance, signing a letter from a committee of the League of Nations wouldn't have amounted to much

[SlipperySlope]

40. Worthless effort

I know we all want to have hope, but this is just delusional. It looks to me like a publicity stunt.

[G_j]

41. thanks for the insight

:banghead:

[SlipperySlope]

42. you're welcome - n/t

[G_j]

43. I am starting to think these folks are REALLY on to something

by the number of people who pop up to dismiss them.

[Dave Reynolds]

47. Oh yeah,

you caught us in a big conspiracy to pooh-pooh this symbolic gesture.

Yep, we're all moles just stomping on your hopes and dreams.

Grow up.

[G_j]

48. I didn't say that

generally when a lot of people attack something with brief and easy dismissals (such as peace marches etc.) I tend to take it as a sign that I am on the right track.

Do you honestly expect me to take your few words more seriously than those of people like Ray McGovern and Howard Zinn.

sorry...

[Cults4Bush]

63. LMFAO!

I usually tell them to go out and do it better. They never really seem to though.

[Clara T]

65. What's our civic responsibility?

"When the possibility of far-reaching war crimes and crimes against humanity exists, people of conscience have a solemn responsibility to inquire into the nature and scope of these acts and to determine if they do in fact rise to the level of war crimes "

Most people don't know it's their constitutional duty to oppose a government that commicts illegal acts of aggressive warmaking.

[schmuls]

112. Did the mainstream media cover this at all? I didn't watch the

news yesterday.

[Dave Reynolds]

67. I prefer armed overthrow,

but that is just me.

[Dave Reynolds]

66. I never confuse attacks with dismissals,

I attack Republican ideals, I dismiss things that I believe to be ineffective.

Sorry to sound so negative, but that is the way I feel about this.

I am not here to sway your thinking, it is nice that someone still can dream.:hi:

[Karmakaze]

79. Gotta love that cult of personality!

Who cares who did this stupid stunt? Because Geroge Bush is President I should believe him over some random blogger? Appeals to authority are really lame my friend.

Defend the actions for once. Show me any shred of argument as to WHY this is a good thing as opposed to the real world options I talked about. Until then I will just have to assume that Ray McGovern and Howard Zinn can be just as stupid as anyone else.

[EFerrari]

91. As I said upthread, "stunts" are in the eye of the beholder.

MLK's marches were stunts. I guess he should have stayed home, too.

Really, do you not understand social interaction in any way at all?

[meganmonkey]

93. Why this is a good thing, as opposed to 'real world options'

Okay, as to your real world options, lay them out for me. I mean really lay them out. Because if it was as easy to do this is in a 'legitimate' court, wouldn't it be happening? We HAVE no recourse right now - all of the apparent checks and balances are USELESS. Congress is USELESS. No 'legitimate' court is oging to take a case on this, at least not right now. Despite our lofty ideals our courts are not these sacred places where justice always prevails.

In EVERY effective social movement - labor rights, civil rights, End the War in Vietnam - creative protest and civil disobedience played VITAL roles. We cannot get this war ended by 'the system' because the system isn't working. We NEED the publicity, we need the TRUTH to come out, and we need 1,000 ways to make that happen.

More letters to your congresspeeps? Is that going to do it? Please. Maybe in concert with the 1,000 other things happening. I keep writing my letters because it is my civic duty. But I sure as hell am NOT going to stop there. I am going to participate in and support creative protest and civil disobedience.

And why limit the charges to one symptom of the the very dangerous disease that is George Bush? Why not try to expose every aspect of the disease of violence and destruction he is unleashing on the world?

And for the record, if you don't know who Howard Zinn is, I really recommend reading his "People's History of the United States". Then maybe you would understand what his involvement means - this has nothing to do with 'cult of personality', it has to do with an incredible historian who, along with many many others, adds much to this coalition.

[DemonFighterLives]

58. GJ's right to call you on your BS

What per chance is a better method?
Instead of detracting, how about adding some complaints and some support for those fighting the regime.
:hi:

[Dave Reynolds]

64. I have given some support,

petition signing, money, LTTE.

I'm sorry to detract, but nothing on the news as of yet.

:patriot:

[meganmonkey]

94. Is there anything on the news about your petition signing

or LTTEs? Sorry to detract, but I can't understand why people are criticizing the creative protest of others. Especially a huge group of people, many of whom have a real grasp of history and the big picture.

:patriot:

[Dave Reynolds]

104. Just once,

there was someone who received pretty good coverage delivering a petition I signed, and being refused entry at the gate.

And a letter was published.

So no, nothing earth-shattering.

I will just slink back to my unreal grasp of history and my small picture world, and never dare to voice an opinion that goes against DU groupthink, okay?

[meganmonkey]

105. It's not about groupthink

For the record, lately those of us who support actions like this and Cindy Sheehan and other unconventional efforts of protest feel like we're the ones getting criticized left and right for promoting things that might "make the Dems look bad". So it really goes both ways, IMO.

I am trying to make valid points here. I am not belittling the letters and the petitions, I participate in them too. In fact I got a LTTE published this week about the NSA spying thing. Will it make a difference? I don't know - maybe it will change or open one person's mind. That's good enough for me.

And the day that Conyers et. al. delivered those petitions to the WH gate was a glorious and (IMO) historical moment.

But clearly it didn't get the war ended, and it didn't make Bushco accountable for their lies and crimes.

My main point is that it isn't an either/or proposition. The obvious channels for fixing what is wrong with this country, like elections and Congress, are NOT working. What this group of people are doing, in concert with the Reps who are demanding an investigation, is just as likely to be effective as anything else.

I apologize for venting my frustration on you. My goals here aren't to be 'right', or to shut anyone's ideas down. My only real goal is to get this war to stop, to get this criminal administration exposed and punished, and to encourage as many people as possible to do whatever they can to help get this done.

[DemonFighterLives]

97. Sorry to call you out and "you done good"

Many here will sign a petition if you post it, as you probably know.
O8)

[Dave Reynolds]

103. No apology needed,

my gestures were probably just as futile.

We all try in our different ways. We will probably never collectively agree on methods, but if anyone expects me to be in lock-step, they will be disappointed.

[EFerrari]

90. I think some DUers are just really risk adverse.

They're like the people who told Kerry not to fight the election theft because it would make him look like a sore loser.

We can't have people thinking we're sore losers now, can we?

lol!

[meganmonkey]

57. Hmmm...maybe you have something there...

a publicity stunt.

How do you get the attention of Americans? Get it on TV. Get the asshole RW pundits to mock you. Then, suddenly everyone knows about it.

Sounds like a good thing to me :shrug:

[Sparkman]

60. ANY people's action APPEARs less authoritative...but they are still CRIME.

AND, pointing out the crimes of government officials is important. This venue is unofficial in the strict sense, but the world has a much higher opinion of the authors and their true charges than the U.S., so I join in with the world community on this one...fire away because it really won't hurt ANY FUTURE ACTION by more traditional courts.

[meganmonkey]

61. I know, it seems like some folks are more offended by

what this huge coalition of patriots is doing than they are by the bush administration's atrocities. It boggles the mind.

[Clara T]

62. The perils of Obedience

The Perils of Obedience
by Stanley Milgram

Obedience is as basic an element in the structure of social life as one can point to. Some system of authority is a requirement of all communal living, and it is only the person dwelling in isolation who is not forced to respond, with defiance or submission, to the commands of others. For many people, obedience is a deeply ingrained behavior tendency, indeed a potent impulse overriding training in ethics, sympathy, and moral conduct.

The dilemma inherent in submission to authority is ancient, as old as the story of Abraham, and the question of whether one should obey when commands conflict with conscience has been argued by Plato, dramatized in Antigone, and treated to philosophic analysis in almost every historical epoch. Conservative philosophers argue that the very fabric of society is threatened by disobedience, while humanists stress the primacy of the individual conscience.

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous import, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.

In the basic experimental designs two people come to a psychology laboratory to take part in a study of memory and learning. One of them is designated a "teacher" and the other a "learner." The experimenter explains that the study is concerned with the effects of punishment on learning. The learner is conducted into a room, seated in a kind of miniature electric chair, his arms are strapped to prevent excessive movement, and an electrode is attached to his wrist. He is told that he will be read lists of simple word pairs, and that he will then be tested on his ability to remember the second word of a pair when he hears the first one again. whenever he makes an error, he will receive electric shocks of increasing intensity.

http://home.swbell.net/revscat/perilsOfObedience.html

We are a very consumer conditioned society that believes in the controlled dissent and feel good petitions as viable maneuvers in social progress. Pretty pathetic.

[G_j]

106. very interesting

article.

There is a lot to contemplate there. Many have seen the need to move from 'hierarchy' or 'power/over' to 'power/with', from a pyramid to a circle.
That our 'need' for submission to authority runs so deep speaks to the difficulties we face in changing our paradigm. But this MUST happen IMO for us to survive.

[Generic Other]

78. It's a grand gesture and I salute them for taking any action

Whether it is a futile gesture or not makes no difference to me. Every act of defiance against the fascist state is noteworthy in given the times we are living in.

[Karmakaze]

82. I keep seeing people refer to my objections and others....

as though we do not want Bush to be indicted or removed for his crimes. Of course that is the ONLY defence of this silly stunt that they can come up with because not one of them has even suggested ANY reasoning as to why this silly stunt is BETTER than a formal legal charge against the Bush admin handed to a REAL COURT.

They of course fail to see that what I can criticise, the media and the admin can criticise. If I can point out how this is a stunt, so can Wolf Blitzer.

So don't worry about me, I may be calling for REAL CHARGES, but that is just a ploy to stop this publicity stunt from having zero impact. After all, I may want Bush charged for real, but what is more effective? Something laughed out of any court and easily dismissed by the media, a feel good stunt that only the people who already agree will ever hear about, or actual criminal charges filed in an actual court?

Yes I'm the one that doesn't want to rock the boat. I'm the one whose negativity can't see that it doesn't matter if this does anything or not. The fact that someone did something, no matter how meaningless, should be applauded!

"The indictments allege illegal acts authorized by the Bush Administration in relation to: ... Destruction of the Global Environment, particular reference to distortion of science and obstruction of international efforts to stem global warming"

Name a law, any law, that says that the President is not allowed to distort science, or obstruct international efforts. I know you can't because there is no such law. So how can they be illegal acts? No law broken = no illegal act = thrown out of court. In other words, pointless.

But the attack the messanger crowd will not ever try to defend their stance, because they know it is indefensible. They KNOW this is meaningless (hell they don't even care if it is or not), they know that what I suggested is NOT, yet I am the one who needs to be attacked because of my "negativity" and being the "worst DU has to offer". Pathetic.

Why should anyone donate money to this effort? If it can not and will not have any real purpose apart from a bunch of left wing backslapping and self congratulation, then why should anyone send a single cent? Surely a fund designed to bring about real charges against the admin would be far more useful?

But then what do I know, I'm not Howard Zinn...

[EFerrari]

92. Worse than not being Howard Zinn, you have no grasp

of civil disobedience or public protest.

You also apparently don't know this is an internationally coordinated effort, nor that Democratic Congressional members are working a parallel action.

Instead, you piss all over the effort and try to claim some high ground in the Real World.

Well, in the REAL WORLD, our Democratic leadership supports this effort and is using it as a pincher to get the committee they want to investigate Monkey Boy.

Anything else?


/typing

[DemonFighterLives]

100. Thanks for pointing out the parallel action

Karmakaze seems to want to ignore what everyone says upthread.
dubby is a criminal and I'm sure destroying the Earth has to be a crime. Even entertaining the notion of limited Nuclear war is the workings of a madman in my opinion. Depleted Uranium sprinkled around the world and total disregard for the UN and world community should set the world in motion against this regime and the entire Culture of Corruption.
I'm sure there are laws against much of what dubby does and loading it on because of his flouting of International Laws is a viable option.
:thumbsup:
:donut:

[0007]

95. I love it! Absolutely love it, I tell you.

Watch junior get feisty now.

[LWolf]

111. I'm so glad.

I'm so glad that there are some who know that no act of resistance or opposition to this diseased administration is futile.

If acts of resistance were futile, we could just dismantle DU, the precints, the voting booths, the congress, the constitution, and quietly lay our lives on their chopping block.