U.S. to import 10,000 S. Koreans for nurses over five years

[G2099]

The move comes as the U.S. government encourages its hospitals to import foreign nurses to fill a shortage of about 300,000 nurses. In New York alone, about 30,000 nurses are believed to be needed right now.

Under the contract, the Korean nurses will go through a 10-day job training upon arrival in the U.S. before being assigned to 36 hospitals in New York as intern nurses for per-hour salary of US$25, according to the South Korean firm.

http://www.zephnet.com/?select=squib&league=composite&post_id=76898&docket=1&linkoff=10

Why can't born in America Americans be "trained" for these job? Because there is no government training money available.

[FreakinDJ]

1. nurse's wages

Can't let the nurse's wages get too high now can we

[Horse with no Name]

15. On a weekend night

I can make up to $60 an hour.
How high is too high?:shrug:
This has nothing at all to do with keeping wages down--if anything, it increases my wages.
It simply has to do with a shortage of qualified personnel that has to be filled.

[liberalnurse]

44. They also have to pass our State Board Exam.....

That will be a big, big challenge. They are going to be glorified nurse aids! They all will be looking for a rich husband. This is their fantasy.

They won't last...they never do.....

Please note, they will be "nurse interns"....meaning nurse aids.

snip>

Under the contract, the Korean nurses will go through a 10-day job training upon arrival in the U.S. before being assigned to 36 hospitals in New York as intern nurses for per-hour salary of US$25, according to the South Korean firm.

[electron_blue]

2. Any nurses out there?

From what I understand, at least in the midwest, there is not so much a shortage of new nurses being trained, as there is a problem with keeping the ones who are already working (low pay, bad working conditions, etc.). If so, what good will it do to bring in more, or train more if you don't fix the problem of why perfectly good nurses are leaving in the first place?

[Horse with no Name]

6. Speaking as a nurse

It is a difficult profession.
There are many areas that have a high rate of burnout--ie, pediatrics, oncology, burn units,etc.
There are also MANY opportunities for nurses in research, sales (many nurses become pharmaceutical sales reps, DME companies), offices, clinics, hospitals, insurance companies, attorneys...etc.
The possibilities and opportunities are endless so it is very difficult to keep up with the supply and demand.
You also have to factor in that the bad nurses get weeded out.
Did you know that Nursing has a higher incidence of on-the-job injuries and disabilities than construction?
You figure the burnout.
Nursing uses up a lot of people.
It is a good job and it pays well. However, if you don't have the stomach or the aptitude for it, you can't do it.

[JDPriestly]

7. It's physically demanding and small physical infirmities can

force a nurse into retirement.

[SoCalDem]

10. Nurses are the BEST people in the world. It always amazed me

every time we would take our son back to the hospital.. They would see his name on the list and when we got off the elevator, they would be there to welcome him back.. The SAME nurses, year after year.. How they could work with so many desperately ill kids and stay with it year after year..and have their own babies, after seeing the horriffic things that "could" happen.. Our son made the trip 4-5 times a year for 8 years, so he was kind of a mascot to most of them, and even "did chores" for them. On the way there he would start talking about what he was going to say to kelly or how he was going to tape Amber's desk drawers shut or how Denise would sneak extra ice cream in to him at night..

Doctors are good too, but the nurses make the difference

[tabasco]

18. You're so right. I can't think of a more difficult job.

I've been in combat, but I would do that again before I could be a nurse. Their job is not only physically demanding but emotionally intense. Most of the nurses I have encountered I would consider angels among the human population.

[Iris]

3. There is money available for this.

Most colleges have nursing programs; they just don't attract enough students. In fact, there are a lot of programs available to American students interested in nursing, including many that pay for school and guarantee a job for graduates, but, again, little or no interest from students.

As far as keeping wages low (post #1) - $25 an hour is the equivalent of $52,000 a year - not a bad starting salary for someone completing a 4 year college degree.

[FreakinDJ]

8. Exactly

Considering Electrical / Software Engineers are starting at 45K here in California I would say Nurses are being paid well. Then again it is an extremely demanding job and good nurses are worth every cent.

H1B and that is what we are talking about here,was lobbied for by Big Electronics Manufacturing Co. to drive down wages during the "Hey Day" of Silicon Valley. H1B is also the MOST ABUSED visa program out there.

[sandnsea]

13. No, there isn't

There is money AFTER you graduate, to pay off your loan if you work in a high needs area. If you're lucky anyway, it isn't an endless supply.

There's money for an LPN to get her RN, and more money for an RN to specialize. There's also some money for single moms to become CNA's. But again, it's not an endless supply and scholarships go to straight-A students.

The ONLY money for average young people going straight into a community college nursing program is traditional grants and loans. And that's all these young people can afford in order to have a manageable student loan when they graduate.

I don't know where you're getting your info from, it isn't what one single nursing student I've talked to has told me.

[Iris]

40. I live in the Atlanta

and I've know several people who have gone through programs at community colleges and at Emory University. All had jobs immediately after graduation and benefited from programs where tuition was covered.

[sandnsea]

48. Not here

Like I said, if you're specifically going for a CNA to go to work quickly, and you're a single mom, yeah, tuition covered. If you're moving from an LPN to a BA, or a BA to specialized field, yeah, tuition covered.

I went to the Emory School web site, most schools don't have all those programs. And I would bet they're full every year too, I just don't buy your theory that they're giving away educations and nobody is taking them up on it.

We need more nursing schools.

[Iris]

52. Do a simple search on the internet.

Yes, there is starting to be a lack of schools, but programs in schools, particularly at a community college level, close because of lack of interest from students. A school can't run a program for handful of people.

Even if Emory's programs are full every year SOMEBODY is getting them - and for those people to get them they have to make an effort and apply. And to some extent have to be ready to take a giant leap of faith - not unlike the nurses coming here from other countries.

[sandnsea]

56. "Nursing schools turn away 6000 applicants a year"

Maybe you should have done that.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=nursing+school+shortage&btnG=Search

[Rosemary2205]

70. Horsefeathers

Every nursing school in Atlanta has told me they have a minimum of a one year waiting list to get into clinicals. Students are expected to put 2 years into classroom work and then if they are 3.7 or above they MIGHT get into clinicals that take 2 years. -- this is 5 years for an associates degree. I'm told bachelors takes 3 years of classroom, up to 2 years on a waiting list for clinicals and then 2 -3 years of clinicals depending on the college.

I ended up moving to Ohio. In Cincinnati the process is the same but there's a better chance for getting into clinicals.

If we want to solve the nursing problem it would seem we need more teachers for the clinicals.

[Greyhound]

34. I don't know where you live, but $52K is not much of a living, especially

when you factor in the $50K - $70K of debt you get to start out in-the-hole with in our for-profit educational loan system.

[Iris]

39. I said 52K is a starting salary.

And it's a very good starting salary in most any areas. And, I also said that most of these programs will pay tuition, so the 50-70K debt you are speaking of is not there.

[leesa]

45. Not a bad starting salary...the problem is you'll probably be making the

same salary 20 years later too. Raise increments are pathetic. I can't tell you how many years I have busted my butt for a 30 cent annual raise resulting from a glowing evaluation. They don't pay you to stay at the bedside and they frequently treat you like an expendable factory line worker...respect is rare from management. It's what's inside them that keeps a good nurse going and the greedy management banks on it.

[Iris]

46. Yes, that's something I don't know much about. But my first job

out of college was with a bank and it was a well-known fact that you started at one bank and got trained but if you wanted to get a real jump in salary, you went to another bank. Likewise, in most fields, no one gets more thant the 2-8% annual raise for staying in the same job; they get the big raises when they either move up or move out. That's something that a profession like nursing doesn't exactly lend itsef to. (Although in researching this topic, I did learn one causes of the shortages is that a lot of nurses earned MBAs so they could move into management.)

[Horse with no Name]

4. This is nothing new

There has been an influx of foreign nurses for years.
Working in Dallas, it is not uncommon at all for a patient to receive care during their stay at least once from a foreign nurse.
In one shift, I have worked with nurses from Canada (you most likely won't recognize these nurses as being foreign), South Africa, Zimbabwe, Phillipines, India, or England.
There is money available to go to nursing school.
One of the problems is that it is a very difficult profession and definitely not everyone's cup of tea.
I have worked with nurses who retrained and were formerly oil field workers, geologists, etc.
Another problem that you have is with the limited entries into schools.
Most nurses don't want to teach other nurses.
A teaching gig might pay $40k, but nurses--depending on their specialties can make up to $60/hr--which is well over the $40k.
There aren't many good solutions to this problem. Foreign nurses seem to be the best fix for it in the interim.

[sandnsea]

5. There's waiting lists in Oregon

Lots of students who want to go to nursing school here, there's 3 year waiting lists to get in. I know lots of young people who just gave up and went to work at lower income jobs. I knew it was only a matter of time before they started in-sourcing health care jobs too. Wait until they start with the doctors, then it'll be a crisis!!! Just like with computer techs.

[shanti]

20. they HAVE been outsourcing nurses

look at all the filipino nurses. also, if you're a member of kaiser, you most likely will get a foreign m.d. mine is polish, but before that i had a vietnamese dr.

personally, i think the "bedside manner" of these foreign dr's leaves a lot to be desired.

[SoCalDem]

9. Too bad they don;t take that same money and pay for nursing school

of young people who are juggling 3 jobs while trying to go to classes at the same time

[Disturbed]

11. In sourcing is all the rage now.

Hospital owners and investors are all for this. It cuts wages and In Sourced personnel will toe the line.

Nursing Degrees are expensive to obtain. If there were programs that made it easier to obtain a degree there would be more that would apply.

In sourcing is not a good long term solution.

[Horse with no Name]

17. I wouldn't want to have to stand toe-to-toe

with the nurses who went through easier programs.
No thank you very much.
I'd rather work with highly qualified people, not people who can't meet minimum standards.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. This is not the first time this has happened

It happened before. Importing nurses from other countries, who often have to take more courses, has been done before. I remember importing nurses from Ireland and Britain. They often had to take additional course in order to be certified.

Nurses, American nurses, need to organize and fight this. Why is it that more Americans are not pursuing a career in nursing and now we see a need to import nurses from other countries whose standards may not be the same? American nurses today have invested thousands of dollars on their careers. MOst of them did so because they felt the need to migrate to this position of helping the sick.

Could it be that the cost of getting that degree puts a burden on the nurses? I once heard a nurse, fresh out of college, arrogantly say that she did not spend so much money on her degree, in order to give bedpans. Too bad. Once there were "nurse's aides. People who were not degreed, but who worked just fine to aide the nurses. They answeredc the bells and they emptied the bedpans. They were eventually squeezed out of their jobs and the nurses,under some ridiculous standard of "personalized care" the care devoted entirely to one patient in all facets of that care, were left without these important aides. They dwindled down to one per sixty patients or so.

The profession has deteriorated. The nurses of today are in a job that requires they must pay back their loans in order to 'be a nurse" and they are stressed and shackled with this "patient care" for which they are totally responsible, including the mundane tasks of emptying bedpans and answering lights, as well as hours of "charting".

It often does not pay out for them. They are overworked and stressed.

[Horse with no Name]

14. I don't know where you get your info

But I won't even begin to address the erroneous info in your post.
I've been a nurse for a long time--going on 20 years and have worked in some of the best--and some of the worst--facilities in the country.
Nurses don't CARE what country their colleagues are from as long as the patients get taken care of. The foreign nurses aren't used INSTEAD of American nurses, they are used in addition to so that the shortage can be eased. Their presence does NOTHING to my salary nor to my position.
Here is a newsflash. I have NEVER met a nurse that sought to do away with "aides"--unless of course the aide was mean to the patients or unskilled in their job.
I take high offense to your statement that the profession has deteorated.
It has not.
If I had a degree in engineering, I would have loans and I would have to pay them back.
Why should a nursing degree be any different?

[Malva Zebrina]

16. I get my info from personal experience

and I have been a nurse for at least fifteen years longer than you have. I have seen, and experienced, the transition, personal and upfront.

My experience covers a wide range of nursing experiences over thirty five years in the field.

I am old enough to remember when doctors made house calls!

And I am in the profession long enough to have experienced the influx of nurses from Ireland and Great Britain at one time, and the additional courses they had to take in order to practice in the US.

Plus, I am old enough to remember when there were aides to assist the nurses more mundane chores, such as emptying bedpans. I am old enough to have seen the transition from hospital trained nurses to the more expensive college degree nurses. I have seen a lot in my experience that you apparently have NOT.

Perhaps you are young enough to not know this or to even consider the history.

[Horse with no Name]

21. Hmm

Then we will just say that I don't know where the hell you work, cause many parts of the country STILL utilize nurses aides to a degree and I DOUBT very seriously that you have *seen more*. You sound very bitter and disillusioned and it seems to be aimed at what you call "college educated" nurses.
I remember when nursing moved into the role of being active practititioners, that many diploma nurses who had been nurses for many years weren't able to do the new skills that became essential to the profession and were "retired"--many unwillingly. I'm not too young to remember that because I worked as a nurses aide for several years before obtaining my own license.
The profession has trended from being just lackies for the docs (you know, the old days when the Doctors started the IV's, did the dressing changes, etc) to the days that the "college degree" nurses insert central lines, run codes and do very complicated procedures that "back in the day", the doctors did.

On edit: I use the term "college degree" as your term. There are still two diploma programs in Texas that generate well-respected nurses.

[Malva Zebrina]

25. Good for you that you improved yourself and worked up the ladder

I am telling you that I also attended courses at Rutgers University i n order to get a degree. At that time, the courses were utterly boring, but necessary if one wanted to get the "degree" This I did, while working a night job and caring for two teenaged children as a single Mom. I sometimes went an entire day without a night's sleep after attending courses and lost thirty pounds doing so. I paid and did not get a loan. And the anecdotal story I told about the young graduate is true.

I am telling you that you are ignorant as to the history of nursing and challenging you as to your confrontational post. I got the experience, you got the arrogance.
'
I am telling you that I lived it, participated in it, and am more qualified to comment on that which I lived through than you are.

[Horse with no Name]

30. I've got the experience too.

And there is QUITE a bit of arrogance drifting from your side of the posting.

[Malva Zebrina]

32. But obviously, I have more experience than you

Do you agree?

[Horse with no Name]

38. Depends on what you consider to be experience

If you are assuming that just because you have been a nurse longer than I have then I can't concede that point.
Exoerience is what you have done and where you have done it.
Those are really the only relevant issues.
I've seen nurses with less than 2 years of transplant experience get jobs over nurses with 10+ years of med-surg because they were better qualified and it wasn't the number of years that was the qualifier.

[Malva Zebrina]

67. Depends upon what the meaning of "is" is huh?

uh Huh. No one has more experience than you even though they have been in the field for fifteen more years, have an advanced degree, and are sincere in their professional requirements?

Uh huh

You win, dear. You are better than all those who have more experience than you do. You win.

Happy?

Hope so, for that pursuit to discredit those who have been in the field for the majority of their life, belies your insecurity.

Hope your patients do not suffer too much under your "superior" attitude.

[Horse with no Name]

68. Actually I sincerely hope your patients don't suffer from your attitude

Since you OBVIOUSLY have had a bad experience.
YOUR WORDS "The profession has deteriorated."
Sorry I take great offense because I don't believe it has.
And again YOUR WORDS "they are stressed and shackled with this "patient care" for which they are totally responsible, including the mundane tasks of emptying bedpans and answering lights, as well as hours of "charting"."
Sorry-- I don't buy it. One has to wonder if you have too many DEGREES to realize that not EVERY nurse feels the same as you. What you find "mundane" probably reflects on your patient care. I don't find emptying bedpans or helping ANY patient with the most menial of tasks beneath me.
Obviously with your bazillion degrees and "more experience than God" attitude, you do.
That is what is offensive and I refuse to let you paint MY profession with a stained broad brush because you feel you are too good to empty a bedpan.
So remember who sought to discredit first
"The profession has deteriorated."
That belies YOUR insecurity and feeling of superiority much more than anything I could write.

[Malva Zebrina]

69. Your profession is my profession

and I have never belied nor betrayed those under my care.


the fact remains, that i have been in the field longer by fifteen years than yourself. The fact remains that you refuse to recognize that fact and insist that you, with less experience, insists upon using spurious methods to demonize those with more experience who may not agree with you.

The fact remains that I do have more experience than you and most probably more concern for my patients than you, who would demonize a fellow health care professional because they dare to challenge or may have more knowlege than you.

I Do have more experience and am more intact with the history of this profession than you, because I have lived it.

I am intelligent,educated and professional and adept at my profession.

Want to challenge that?

How?

By insisteing that you know more than I, or have had more "experience" by trying to parse the word "experience"? Or by trying to bash me?

Why?

Why would you want to do that? Why?

I mean, are we not both dedicated to same results?

Apparently, your ego is in the way imo. You are dedicated to bashing those in your own profession who have dedicated more than thirty five years in the field, in order to win some imagininary battle?

Hmm--if I were your patient or "client" as today's nursing rhetoric goes, I would be somewhat concerned about your motives when you stomp upon others whose goals would apparently be the same--or are they the same? Are you in some war against all others who have gone before you, who know the history, just because you have less experience and those who have gone before you are just to be bashed as--what?

Take it for what it is. You are less experienced, by a significant amount of fifteen years. You are not the ultimate and the know all in the profession today, and seem to have a lot to learn.

[Horse with no Name]

71. self delete

because you aren't worth it.

[shanti]

22. you are so right

many nurses become burned out. my mother was a NICU RN and she took early retirement because of the stress.

[Dr. Jones]

19. Indeed, WHY!! PLENTY of Americans WANT THESE JOBS!

My BP just went through the roof. This is OUTRAGEOUS! There are PLENTY of Americans who are willing to do this! WTF!!
:mad:

[Iris]

42. where are they?

Because they're not in the nursing programs that already exsist.

And, please, don't point me up the thread to the folks in Oregon on waiting lists for 3 years. If they really want jobs, they'll relocated. But I guess it's just easier to sit on your ass and complain about immigrants who are willing to leave their country for a job while you just sit and rot in Oregon waiting for your local community college to have space for you even though there are colleges all over the US with nursing programs.

This is just another bullshit half-baked attack on immigrants.

[sandnsea]

50. See #29

And no, people can't just relocate because then they'll have to deal with much much more expensive out-of-state tuition. Not to mention living expenses that they don't have to deal with when they're going to the community college from home.

There aren't enough nursing programs. That's the problem.

I could care less whether immigrants come into this country or not. But when they're being exploited, here and in their own countries, by a run-away corporate system that ends up hurting ALL of us in the long run, that's when I call bullshit.

YOU aren't doing anything to support immigrants if you support them coming to this country to be exploited. They are not going to make $25 hour, I can't believe you believe that.

And by the way, it isn't like Oregon is hanging off the edge of the earth or something. OSHU was ranked #3 of 145 medical schools. People aren't just sitting here "rotting" and even if we were, I'd much prefer to rot here than to live in Georgia.

[Iris]

51. Great. Rot in Oregon, but quit complaining about your lack of

opportunities. The day I lack them in the place I live is the day I start looking elsewhere. And because I've had these opportunities, I'm in a position to leave Georgia when I'm good and damn ready.

[Greyhound]

23. ...and $25 p/hr is just over half the going rate. I hate these assholes!nt

[SmokingJacket]

24. On a whim I called up a nursing school recently...

actually just after Katrina, when I thought I'd like to become a nurse to actually be HELPFUL in a situation like that hurricane (and all the ones with our name on them, in the future).

This was in October or so. I was asking if I could get into the entering class of 2006, almost a year from then. The answer was NO. I would have to RETAKE all the math and biology classes I took in high school and college (I have a 15-yr old BA, and a 10 yr old MA) even BEFORE I could apply, and even if I went to school full time, I wouldn't finish in time.

Is there a nursing shortage here?? You'd think the nursing schools would be a little more flexible in letting in students, if so. I mean, I KNOW my math and biology, I could take the exams -- I just got the impression I was neither wanted nor needed.

Now I'm working for $9 an hour. Would I prefer $25? Yes, indeed. But I can't go to school for four more years. Two, I could spring for.

[Horse with no Name]

29. This is the explanation

The nursing instructors have to be RN's.
For many years, it had to be an MSN (Master degreed Nurse) teaching the course for ADN's and BSN's.
However, because of the INSTRUCTOR shortage, many schools relaxed the standards and allowed a BSN( Bachelor degreed Nurse) teach under the promise that she would obtain a higher education.
They also allowed ADN's (Associate Degreed Nurses) instruct LPN's--again, under the promise that they would seek at least a BSN.
Each school that teaches nursing can only have a certain number of students per instructor (the number used to be 15:1, unsure if they have lightened it). When the schools are able to procure more instructors, they are able to take more students. HOWEVER, there is also another consideration. The hospitals that they do clinicals at will only allow a certain number of students to do their training at any given time. In smaller communities where more than one college has a nursing program, it becomes a competition for hospital spots (indeed in my clinicals, we had to drive 90 miles roundtrip at our own expense during two different rotations in order to get our clinicals in). So, the decision on how many people a college can take is completely relevant to how many instructors they have and how many students the hospitals will allow to train at one time.
An Instructor position is just like every other nursing position--it suffers from the shortage. Many don't want to commit because the Instructors are 100% responsible and liable for the students under their watch. It isn't easy to watch 15 students at a time when they are on 3 different floors of the hospital and all in different areas and a great many nurses aren't willing to sacrifice their license for the greater good.
Now with all that being said--it is much easier to enter a BSN program than it is an LPN or an ADN program.
If I were you, I would check into a 4-yr school instead of a Community College.
Good Luck!

[SmokingJacket]

35. Very interesting!

I think a BSN program would kind of a commute from here... but I'll definitely look into it.

THanks!

[Iris]

47. I think you should

I didn't mean for my reply to be nasty, even though it sort of turned out that way. What I really was trying to say is it would probably be worth the effort and the extra time if this is something you really want to do.

And, I went back to school for a graduate degree about a year ago - very part time (1 class semester) at first, but as I've progressed, I've found opportunities here to get money for tuition and also to earn money while getting eperience.

[Iris]

43. Accredited schools have standards that have to be met.

Sometimes it requires students to jump through a lot of hops, but I honestly don't see why retaking some classes would have to hold you back, even if it takes 4 years - especially if you'd be making nearly triple what you're making now.

[Heddi]

26. Why not spend the $$ to increase number of American nursing students/schls

I graduate from a 2-year RN program in June, 2006.

My husband just started the same nursing program in March, and he will graduate in 2 yearss.

My program is one of 2 nursing programs in a 250+ mile area. My program can only take in 72 students per year (24 per quarter). The other one is a BSN program that takes in 24 students per year (12 per semester).

I was on a waiting list for over a year just to get in. Mr. Heddi was not only on one waiting list, but NUMEROUS waiting lists throughout the states of Washington, Oregon, Idaho, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Alabama. To be true, not every college had a waiting list. In fact, 99% of colleges (2 year) he applied for did not have wating lists. You apply and if you in the top 24 applicants, you get in. If not, re-apply.

The money he has spent on transcripts, taking classes that only one school wants but not others, travelling for admission testings, traveling for interviews....that all adds up.

All of my nursing teachers have their Master's degree. They make roughly $24-$30k a year as nursing teachers in the community college system---less than I'll make my first year in practice after graduation.

Hard to attract nurses to teach when the pay difference is SO staggering. LPN's make more than nursing instructors--again, who by law must have their masters' degree.

Community college tuition is going up up up. School can't afford to hire new teachers, can't afford to raise the pay of teachers they have on staff, can't afford to expand lab space to accomodate more students.

Our state has a law that for clinical instruction (when we're actually in the hospital, working with patients), no more than 10 students per clinical instructor. That law became effective as of 1/1/06. Whoops---how can we accept 24 students per quarter and only have 2 clincial instructors? Now the school has to hire ANOTHER instructor and break the class up into 3 clinical groups--instead of 2 groups of 12 as was in the past. Now there's 3 groups of 8 and an extra expense the college can barely handle.

My husband got into the nursing program this Spring (march 06). For 24 slots, there were over 250 applicants.

The school in Seattle where I took my pre-req's has (had?) one of the best nursing programs not only in the state, but in the region. They accepted 30 students per quarter, and did not have a wait list. Every quarter they would receive OVER 1200 applications for THIRTY spots.

--
I'm sorry. There are far too many people here who WANT to go to nursing school, who have the desire, and who have the attitude and compassion and knowledge necessary to do so. But they can't. There isn't room in school, there aren't enough teachers available, school's can't accept more than 75-90 per year. Use the money that's being used to train & transport these nurses to increase the class size in our already formed, already credentialed nursing schools. Use the money to bring in new nursing teachers. To raise their salaries. To make it not so much of a lifestyle decision to be a nurse practitioner working in practice making $75k+ a year, or being a teacher making $30k a year. Expand class sizes. SOMETHING.

There is *NO* shortage of Americans who want to be nurses....I fucking guarantee you that.

[ismnotwasm]

31. I was trying to post something along those lines

Then I hit back and just sighed. Thank you-- you did a much better job than what I was doing.

[sam sarrha]

27. could it be because no one can afford to go to college today??

of course i am speaking of the middle and under classes.. i dont know how many CEO's daughters and sons become nurses.. but i have my doubts

[Ksec]

28. My daughter was planning on a nurses degree...shes 14

I wonder if nursing demand will still be there in ten years?

[NewJeffCT]

33. They've been importing Filipino nurses for 10-12 years now

There are literally dozens of them at the prestigious Yale hospital in New Haven, CT...

[lovuian]

36. They are just a drop in the bucket and won't help the crisis

coming in healthcare... its coming...They are union busters and making a feeble attempt at keeping the wages down.

Bottomline the hospitals treat their staff horribly and they are monopolies...

They are looking for workers who will essentially be LOCKED IN... they can't go anywhere...

The other countries are seeing their medical personall leaving their countries and are getting ticked off...

All I can say is Universal Health is on its way because this is collapsing before our eyes...

[FooFootheSnoo]

37. I would love to be a nurse

I just don't have the time or money to do it right now. I have had a few friends in nursing school and, at times, with the clinical hours it was like working a 40+ hour a week job. There was no time for a paying job. I have to pay for daycare plus tuition plus gas, etc. to go to nursing school. I'm hoping once my daughter starts school I can maybe swing it. Everything I read says the shortage is going to get worse and worse. So, obviously, I'll always have a job.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

41. There is a fundamental problem in America, where the profession of nursing

whether it's due to pay or working conditions or both, is not attractive enough to fill the needed spots. Insourcing as in this article is just filling a shortage, it's not putting American nurses who want a higher salary out of work.

[Horse with no Name]

49. Exactly.

The foreign nurses are VERY needed AND appreciated by the American nurses who work alongside them.
And just a side note.
ALL foreign nurses are required to pass the NCLEX which is the SAME test American nurses have to pass to practice.
IF their education was not sufficient in their home countries, they will not pass, therefore they will not work here.
Absolutely there are foreign nurses who cannot pass the test--but there are also American nurses who cannot pass it.
This is NOT an issue where foreign citizens are stealing American jobs.
We have brought foreign nurses in for MANY years from all the over the world and yet the nursing profession remains in a shortage.

[lovuian]

54. there is a problem of Patient / Nurse ratios all through

the United States where hospitals are giving nurses more patients ...

Nurses can't keep up with the workload and stress and burnout is terrible...

I wonder what hospitals are getting these 10,000 S Korea nurses...???
you would probably see abuse of employees and high turnover rates ...

Why are these happening??? The management of the hospitals are not listening to their nurses...

More nursing unions are coming ...

[sandnsea]

55. Serious disconnect

You understand that there's limited nursing school slots available, I've no doubt you understand the number of under-employed people in this country, and yet you don't make the connection between the system-made shortage and why the system would prefer foreign nurses. I guess every sector really does have to be smacked over the head with the realities of foreign competition and decreased wages before they get it. Your turn's coming.

[Horse with no Name]

57. I explained upthread why the limited spots in school

And I also think it would be a GRAVE mistake to lower standards to get into nursing school. For one thing, nursing schools are mandated to have an acceptable pass rate for state boards. If the schools don't meet these pass rates, then the school is shut down by the state. So if you let substandard candidates in, then you risk getting the entire program shut down which in turn means that there are fewer schools for qualified candidates.
This is my profession--I know what I am talking about.
The hospitals DON'T "prefer" foreign nurses--but there really isn't a choice.
There is a shortage. It is spoken upthread of the nurses making $25 an hour. However, most are given housing allowances plus the expenses of their VISAS, etc. to compensate for the lesser wages.
They have been importing foreign nurses into this country at least for the last 20 years. It is AWFULLY strange that people are all up in arms over now that the immigration issue is a hot topic.:eyes:
I went into an administrative position--took 3 years out of bedside nursing and when I came back, I am making $10 more an hour than when I stopped.
AFTER 20 YEARS OF A FOREIGN INFLUX OF NURSING, my wages went UP just like they have every single year before. I am not concerned.
These nurses are NOT our competitors. They are our colleagues and if it weren't for them, hospitals would be shutting their doors because there are not enough nurses to staff them.
Then housekeeping, dietary, secretaries, etc would ALL be out of work.

[sandnsea]

58. I didn't say lower standards

I said create more programs for the 6000 students a year who are qualified but turned away, which I posted above.

And what do you mean housing allowances and VISA costs to make up for their lesser wages?? What lesser wages?

It isn't 20 years ago, it's now. This is how it works.

[Horse with no Name]

59. I know EXACTLY how it works

and it has been going on for 20 years. And it has been the same for 20 years in the hospital industry.
It isn't a big deal and nobody has given ten shits about it until the immigration issues have started coming up.
If I were to choose to go to another country, I would be given the opportunity because of my career, why shouldn't their citizens be afforded the same opportunity?
It is almost impossible to increase the number of schools because of the above factors.
But lets explore the thing you mentioned.
I have a friend in Oregon. Her niece graduated from High School 2 years ago and wanted to go to Nursing School. However, your schools have waiting lists (something I think should be abolished. In Texas, most schools don't have waiting lists and everyone has an equal opportunity to get in every year if they are qualified.)Anyway, one of their relatives knew someone who knew someone who was able to get her moved up on the waiting list. She started school that Fall.
She went two semesters and decided nursing wasn't for her so she is pursuing another degree. This happens all the time. My class of 30 graduated 17 nurses. Some failed, some quit...it is just something that has to be factored in.
(Someone mentioned upthread that they were exploiting the nurses at lower wages because they were only making $25/hr. USUALLY part of the deal is that they get their housing and VISA, sponsorship costs, license fees etc. along with the hourly wage.)

[sandnsea]

60. I hope you're right

For me, no this isn't a thought that just popped in my head because of the current immigration stuff. This is a thought that has been in my head as I've watched the process since I got outsourced way way back in 1980. It goes in cycles, but globalization eventually gets everybody, and health care isn't going to be any different. 5% of the world's population simply can't expect to dominate forever.

And if you go to the google link I posted, you'll discover that it isn't just Oregon who has waiting lists and is turning away students. There aren't enough schools all over the country, I note that you say, in Texas, "most" schools don't have waiting lists. Hmmm, so it is a problem in Texas too, for "some" schools.

I don't have any problem with immigrants, AT ALL. But when I know so many young people who either can't afford school or can't get into school, and people come along and arrogantly act as if they're just tossing away opportunities willie-nillie, then that pisses me off. It's not true. With most young people I know, money or access is the obstacle, not desire.

[Horse with no Name]

62. The application process is designed

to try and weed out those just wanting a great job in favor of those who will actually make good nurses.
Obviously like everything else it is a flawed system.
The thing that nursing has over almost every other profession is that there are many career paths a nurse can take. You aren't locked in to any one thing. While this is a great thing for the nurse, it is bad for the employer. Nurses don't have to stay there if they don't like it. There is always somewhere else you can work.
There are definitely geographical distinctions when you talk about the shortages. The Northern states rarely have the shortages that the Southern states have. Much of that has to do with the Canadian nurses that work on this side of the border.
Now, there is a nursing school that is on the Texas-Oklahoma border that advertised in the newspaper a couple months ago because they had unfilled spots. That is something I had never seen before.
One thing that many of the nursing boards have done to alleviate the shortages is to create compact states.
Nurses that are in these compact states can move freely between these states and work on their home state licenses.
However, some states refuse to participate in this.
I agree with you about the girl who basically shoved someone who was deserving out of their spot and then "decided" it wasn't what she wanted to do.
I believe anyone who wants to be a nurse should be required to be an aide first. I think that would be one factor that would solve some of the drop outs. The paychecks are nice, this is true, however, there isn't enough money in the world if you don't like taking care of people.

[sandnsea]

63. 6,000 qualified applicants

There are not enough schools. That's the problem. Here are all the people from all over the country to tell you that.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/9215.html

"..Tracey Rasmussen, a 34-year-old mom with a warm, down-to-earth bedside manner and a 3.9 grade point average.

"Rasmussen was rejected twice from nursing school - one of thousands of qualified people turned away from the profession each year because nursing colleges lack space, faculty and funding.

"The universities are just not able to compete," said Johnie Mozingo, associate dean of Academic Affairs at the University of Tennessee College of Nursing, which rejected half its nursing applicants this year..."

Factor in everything you know about corporate America and corporate health care and globalization, and you really ought to be able to come up with the WHY yourself.

[Horse with no Name]

64. I know what the problem is and why

It is the instructors. There aren't enough of them.
If there aren't enough instructors, there aren't going to be enough schools.
The foreign nurses are a bandaid for a very real problem.
BUT it isn't a problem that will be easily solved until universities and colleges can pay nursing wages to their instructors instead of teaching wages.
BUT speaking as a nurse who has worked short handed some shifts, I am grateful for the help. When you have patients whose lives hang in the balance, the ONLY remedy is extra hands and I don't care where they come from.
Patient safety has to come before politics and bureaucracy because until those "6,000 qualified applicants" have a license in their hand and initials behind their name, they are worthless to a short handed hospital.

[sandnsea]

65. I understand that

So we should be pushing for emergency teaching grants instead of just focusing on the student end of things. All I'm suggesting is addressing the real problem, which is a lack of schools, or instructors, as you have informed me. Otherwise we'll have a continued shortage, which is okay to fill from overseas as long as everybody in this country really does have the opportunity to get the education in their career of choice. That's not the case right now.

You are certainly welcome to think it's all coincidental. I think it's intentional. But that doesn't really matter when we both acknowledge more instructors and more schools would solve the problem.

[Horse with no Name]

66. The one thing that is important to remember

is that if there is a bad guy, then it is the institutes of higher learning.
The hospitals need this issue resolved as well.
You might be shocked to find that many hospitals have to resort to paying astronomical wages to nurses through staffing agencies to cover their shifts. They would certainly be thrilled to have another 6000 nurses thrown in the mix because it would save them money.
An agency nurse makes anywhere from $30-60 an hour. The hospital has to pay THIS in addition to another $20-$40 an hour, making upwards of $100 an hour that they are paying for one nurse who, most of the time, is unfamiliar with the procedures of the hospital. The hospital just has to hope for the best.
I think you are correct when you say that emergency teaching grants are a solution. They also need competitive wages. Another would be to reduce the personal liability of the nursing instructor and throw it back to the school.
If the schools would do those three things, it would help recruit instructors but it would also cost the colleges more money to run the programs and less to put in their coffers.
By reducing the shortages, it helps the hospitals. The foreign nurses are only short term solutions and usually the solution of last resort.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

53. Sounds Like A Good Idea To Assist With The Nursing Shortage.

The shortage of nurses has been a problem for years. I hope this helps that out a little, though I'm sure it would only make a small dent.

[alittlelark]

61. My Aunt - Head Nurse at ? hospital in Pueblo,CO told me

about this over 10 years ago. She has since retired, but is active w/in the union......... It's a BAD scene.



Just waiting for the 'Left-wing' MSM to bite into the story......................crickets.........chirping..........................................................
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