Storm Surge (large photo -- dial up warning)

[merh]

(c) copyright 2006 by Sister Katrina.

This photo was taken by a nun who was at the Our Lady of the Gulf Church in Bay St. Louis, MS, on August 29, 2005.
This is Katrina's storm surge before it slammed the city of Bay St. Louis.



Disclaimer: This photograph is in the process of being copyrighted by the photographer.

[LeftCoast]

1. I think people would appreciate a size warning in the title

Cool picture, btw. :hi:

[graywarrior]

2. Scarey.

[uppityperson]

3. Thank you.

For all I know, all I've done and seen and lived, I am amazed at this. I did not realize that it came in so high so fast, thought it was like a very rapidly rising tide (with a hurricane on top of it) that got up an extra 20-30 ft or so. This is amazing.

[hatrack]

4. HO-LEEEE SHIT!

I'll take tornadoes any day over that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Horrifying isn't it?

Hey Hatrack :hi:

[hatrack]

11. Hey, p2bl! How are you doing?

:toast: Just hanging out drinking wine and eating cheese (it's even imported, though not from France) download Bushclips.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I'm great!

Check your PM.

[MuseRider]

7. LOL my thought exactly!

That is amazing.

[evlbstrd]

17. I'm with you.

I've seen land storms and I've seen ocean storms.
Give me land storms, thank you.
How ya doin', hatrack?

[CrazyOrangeCat]

5. My God . . . mountainous seas. n/t

[insane_cratic_gal]

8. Wooooow

you can see the trees right on the break of the wave, all along the right side (or left side)


That's scary.

[autorank]

9. Amazing stuff mehr...glad you shared! n/t Recommended

[HeeBGBz]

10. Oh sweet Jesus

Had I realized that was out there when I was sitting in the dark and listening to the roof creak and groan...

I can't imagine the lazy blue gulf turning into that.

[Sparkle]

12. Wow!

If I saw that, I'd think the end of the world was coming!

[C_U_L8R]

13. Is it pouring over a dike....

or a sea wall??? That line (right above the phone cable)
looks awfully straight for a pure wall of water... more like the
ocean is spilling over a break.

nonetheless its a terrifying pic !!!

[merh]

15. Our waters are very shallow.

They say that is why the storm surge was able to build, all the water was forced in and it had nowhere to go but up.

[lastliberalintexas]

21. That's just the surge itself, no wall other than water

A hurricane is an amazing creature.

There are more pics at www.ritaimages.com, and then click on the link for Katrina. I just don't remember the direct link to the Katrina photos.

[Atman]

24. No way. It can't happen like that. Water doesn't behave that way.

It simply isn't possible. The water is pouring over a levee.

[lastliberalintexas]

29. Maybe a seawall, but I don't think

Bay St. Louis has a levee system. Perhaps Mehr can enlighten us. However, I've seen other photos from both Katrina and Rita where the water looked similar. I'll see if I can find the one that was in the Beaumont Enterprise after Rita.

[Atman]

32. Make it easier on yourself...

Find ANY other picture from anywhere where water broke like this. Waves simply don't behave this way. If it were a wave, the sea level behind it should be half the height of the crest.

Hey, I may not be a physicist, but I know what matters! (ba-doom).

[lastliberalintexas]

37. Well, pine straw isn't supposed to go through cement, either

And I personally saw that after Rita. A 3 straw cluster of pine straw straight through a cement post, as though someone had glued it to either side of the post.

Sorry, I couldn't find the picture of Rita from the Enterprise, and it wasn't as impressive as Katrina. But it also showed a wall of water heading towards Sabine Pass, and SB does not have a seawall over which the water could break. :shrug:

[Atman]

40. Yes, pine straw does go through cement in cat 5 winds.

That kind of stuff is rather common, and has nothing to do with the physical properties of water.

[lastliberalintexas]

44. I'm certainly no scientist

I am not claiming anything about this picture or hurricanes in general, other than to say that I would not be surprised to learn that the normal laws of physics don't apply to such a situation. I know what you are saying about the normal break of a wave and the equality of distances on either side of the break. This could very well be a picture of water breaking over a seawall. I just didn't think that BSL had one, but since I am not a native of that area I would have to defer to others who are.

[Strelnikov_]

45. Unless It Is A Wave With A Long Wavelength

Like you get with tsunamis and hurricanes.

The picture is consistent with wave with a long wavelength. The wave front comes in as a wall versus a cresting wave found with a short wavelength.

[Atman]

47. But it isn't even a WALL

The water on the front of this "wall" looks much more like Niagra Flls. See the small offshoots on the right side? Near the horizontal wall midway up the photo? Now look at a picture of a waterfall. Those are caused by an obstruction, something beneath the surface over which the water is moving. Look at the pictures of the Boxing Day tsunami...if this was a storm surge moving forward, it would have a radically more gradual slope up the front. Without the little spillovers I mentioned previously. Again, please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. But I've lived with waves and water much of my life, I grew up on the coast of Florida, I've been one of the idiots the news shows when surfers ignore the warning and paddle out into oncoming storms. You can look this one up in the text books. Katrina may have been dramatic, but it didn't usher in a new era of hydro physics!

[uppityperson]

49. Tsumani movies I saw had this configuration.

Some were more gradual, some were a wall with a much more abrupt front, with bits spilling over it.

[merh]

56. Did you happen to ride Katrina's storm surge?

If not, then you cannot speak to what the surge looked like or did.

Again, Katrina has baffled the experts and just because you have ridden your share of waves does not make you an expert.

Let me put it to you this way, you would NEVER be called as an expert in a court of law, let alone qualified as a wave/storm surge expert. Never.

[uppityperson]

48. Exactl;y. Look at the tsunami pictures

it is a surge, not a wave as such, like a tsunami. The water is being shoved, not blown along. I mean, there are waves on top of the surge, from the wind. But the surge is a surge, not a big wave and acts that way.

[uppityperson]

16. Found pictures from some other people of OurLadyoftheGulfChurch/area

http://homepage.mac.com/chriswilkinson/HurricaneKatrinaPics/PhotoAlbum38.html
Just for the aftermath effect.

[Triana]

18. WOW! That's scary looking. Yikes! (n/t)

[matt819]

19. Re copyright

I'm no attorney, but all it takes to copyright your own work is an assertion to that effect, i.e, (c) copyright 2006 by Sister Katrina.

Amazing photo.

[merh]

20. Thanks for that tip -- I will post that with the image.

:hi:

[alcibiades_mystery]

80. It doesn't even take that

It's automatically copyrighted, assertion or no. All you have to subsequently do is prove that you took the picture.

[ClayZ]

22. Yikes!

Hell and high water!

[Atman]

23. That water is pouring over a levee.

It isn't a wave, like last years' Boxing Day tidal wave. I'm not saying it isn't very dramatic, and very scary. But don't be misled. It isn't actually a wall of water, a big wave. Look to the right, almost exactly half-way down...the water is spilling over a wall. A levee.

There is no way water can form a perfectly horizontal, flat line like that on its own. Waves don't break that way. They just don't. But again...it is an awesome, scary photo. Wave, surge, whatever, I sure as shootin' wouldn't have wanted to be in that thing's path!

[CrazyOrangeCat]

27. I think you're right . . .

. . . but mercy, look at the waves in the far distance!

[Botany]

25. Wow!

Thank you for posting this ......

No words can describe that picture.

[aikoaiko]

26. Or is someone's photoshop-fu strong?

I have no reason to doubt you or the nun personally, but I am skeptical.

I don't even know how to authenticate something like that. Anyone want to suggest?

[Atman]

28. It's a massive flow of water, and it may well be Katrina

But it isn't a wave or a storm surge. It is the risen sea level spilling over the top of a levee or dike.

A wave breaks when it becomes higher than the depth of water beneath it. Then it spills forward. The water in front of the "wave" in this pic would be rushing OUT, toward the "wave," sucking up the trees and flotsam, which it isn't doing in this picture. I don't have any reason to doubt that it is from Katrina, I'm just saying it isn't a wave or a direct "storm surge" of rushing water. Had the levee been two feet higher when this picture was taken, it would just be a picture of a wall.

[merh]

31. You don't know what you are talking about.

There was no levy - this was water in the Gulf/Bay of St. Louis.

Don't profess expertise you don't have.

You have no idea the depth of the waters in the Gulf/Bay -- the weather experts say the reason why the surge was so high, so bad is because of our shallow waters. The huge storm was pushing the waters ahead of her and the waters had no where to go but up.

Don't even talk about levies when you discuss the Mississippi Gulf Coast destruction, which was 80 miles of total devastation thanks to the estimated 30 to 40 foot storm surge.

If you have never seen this type of phenomenom doesn't mean it didn't occur. This is not a photoshop, this is a true image. Maybe you want to go study up on Katrina and learn that more than just the levies in NOLA were affected. The truth be told, the Mississippi Gulf Coast suffered more damage than NOLA. The MS Gulf Coast was almost obliterated.

[Atman]

35. I lived on the ocean most of my life and surfed for over ten years.

I know how ocean water behaves. I know exactly what I am talking about.

Even if you had shallow water, waves just don't break like this. ESPECIALLY if you have shallow water. Period. It isn't my personal opinion! I am NOT claiming it to be Photoshopped. I am saying it simply isn't a rushing wall of water. It is water spilling over that horizontal obstruction about halfway up on the right side of the photo.

[merh]

38. The wave is not breaking yet, it is building, it is being forced

into land. How many hurricanes have you lived through? How many storm surges have you watched?

The waves as you call it are not waves in the normal sense of the word. This is a huge wall of water being forced into shore. That is not water spilling over, that is water building, the tons of water that was being forced to shore by the storm.

[Atman]

42. I've lived through several. I grew up on the Atlantic Coast of Florida.

Don't lecture me. I've seen it and lived it. You have posted a fascinating, dramatic picture. But it is a picture of water spilling over something. A dike, a wall, call it what you want. It may be a storm surge BEHIND the wall, spilling over the wall. But it is NOT a wall of water.

[merh]

50. You are the one lecturing

and expressing your expertise.

That is storm surge, the waters being pushed to shore and you have never been through what Katrina had. NO ONE has. This has never happened before, all of the experts are stumped by it, amazed by the devastation.

Hell, you were blaming it on the levies and there are no levies in Bay St. Louis.

Don't profess expertise when you don't know all of the facts. And you can't know all of the facts because the experts are trying to figure it all out to this day.

[Atman]

52. There is no proof that this is even Bay St. Louis

Is there?

[merh]

53. Yes there is.

The nun that took the photo was there.

You have problems with that, then go away and ignore this thread.

[Atman]

57. OH! It was a NUN! Then it must be real!

Wow. Strong proof. You got me on that one. As an atheist, do I have to care that it was a nun?

[Atman]

58. The picture, diagrammed...

This isn't scientific, just trying to point out the problem areas...

I can't say it enough for those getting so offended...I understand that Katrina was big. I get it. I understand "no one" has ever seen anything like Katrina. I get it. But water wasn't invented just for Katrina, nor were the physics of how water behaves. There are very specific things in this picture that demonstrate it is NOT an unobstructed storm surge...

[Silverhair]

119. No seawall there like that. I lived in Bay St. Louis and know the area.

All of the Mississippi Gulf Coast has a seawall, but it is quite a small one. From the beach it rises about 3 to 4 feet high. After the top of the seawall, in most places is land. So the seawall is like a small 3 to 4 foot stepped cement drop from the land to the beach.

Nowhere is there a large seawall or levee on the entire Mississippi Gulf Coast.

I think the nun was probably using the zoom on her camera, and probably the maximum zoom at that.

In previous major storms, people who have seen a storm surge have described it as a wall of water. Nor does it violate the laws of physics. Check out river bores. I have watched pictures, (Nat'l Geographic) of those bores and they look exactly like the nun's picture, except the river ones are much smaller.

Here is a link to bores at Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory. Take a look at the pics. They are much like the storm surge.

http://www.pol.ac.uk/home/insight/riverbores.html

[FlaGranny]

135. Interesting photo I found of a

tidal bore that looks very much like the photo in the OP:

[Squatch]

136. If you like that, watch this video:

Link

[merh]

59. As an atheist you should respect that fact that the lady

that took the photo took the photo during the storm. What, do you think she created it in a bathtub?


You are being silly about this. You were not there, just because you surf does not make you an expert of weather phenomenon's and the experts on this one are baffled.

[Atman]

61. You're arguing something entirely different now...

Of course I don't think she took it in a bathtub! You've gone down that road a couple of times now, yet I don't recall a single post wherein anyone said the picture wasn't real. No one but you suggested Photoshopping. Certainly not ME! Maybe you're missing what I am saying.

It is a shitload of water. Yup, no doubt.

It is moving toward the photographer. Well, okay, at a slight angle, but still, toward the Sister. No doubt.

But is it the ocean as shown behind the much-pointed-out horizontal line across the middle of the picture, surging forward unobstructed, ready to wipe out everything in it's path? No, absolutely not. No way in hell. The sea level behind the levee rose, perhaps even rapidly as a storm surge aproached. That storm surge may have even hit that seawall. May have, hell, I'd say the picture shows that it DID hit that seawall.

And then it began spilling over it, filling up the area on the other side of the seawall, just as a bathtub spills over onto your floor if you leave the water running. But again, I am stating with nearly 100% confidence that it is NOT an unobstructed storm surge. There is clearly a seawall or levee over which this water is spilling. Dis my background all you want. What is YOUR expertise that you can so clearly dismiss what I am saying? I am supposed to accept this picture on faith simply because you say it came from a nun? Gimme more, man! I've done everything I can to prove my point, and all you've offered me is "but a nun took the picture!"

Sorry. I'm just not buying it. Again, not because it isn't a dramatic picture of pending devastation (jeez, how many times do I have to say it?), but because your explanation just doesn't...er...hold water.

[merh]

66. See you are showing your ignorance again.

And that just makes you look more foolish, because you still profess your expertise as you spout nonsense.

This is not an ocean, it is a GULF. The waters are very shallow, nowhere near the depth of the ocean. There are no levees. There is no seawall. You put obstacles there that do not exist and you have not proven your point you have made supposition.

Continue to add elements to the environment that did not exist and you will continue to prove your ignorance.

And yes, a poster you agreed with did suggest that the image was a photoshop.

You should at least track the posts.

Have a great night & hang ten, baby! :headbang:

[Atman]

69. I am sorry to embarrass you so...you're wrong.

Really. You should have been more mellow about this. Now you're just about to made to look foolish...

What the hell is that straight line in the water in front of the spot where you claim the picture is taken?

[merh]

73. Dude, I really don't know and have professed over and over

I am not certain as to where the nun (oh, excuse me, lady) was when she took the image.

You continue to assert there is no surge, just big waves and you continue to say there are levees and the like, which there are not. Again, the experts are still trying to decide what had occurred with Katrina. I will not venture to be an expert.

I do appreciate the fact that you provide further images to help people better understand. The image you show is after the storm and is very interesting. Thank you.

[Atman]

76. Actually, just the opposite.

"You continue to assert there is no surge, just big waves"

There is always a storm surge associated with a big hurricane. That is just the nature of the beast. You're confusing the argument again. I clearly said it could NOT be a wave. Not possible. Other posters with apparent knowledge of the behavior or water affirmed that. Obviously, there are waves, chop, in the water BEHIND the seawall over which the water is pouring. Because that is the level of the sea, likely as a result of the storm surge. That the water is the product of storm surge isn't the discussion, either, though. The point that I cannot seem to make you understand is that this is not a wall of water rushing toward the photographer. It is the high sea level resulting from the storm surge spilling over the seawall which is CLEARLY VISABLE in the satellite photo. Did it spill over fast? Was it scary? Sure as shit! No one, me included, ever said otherwise. If you want to deny what you're seeing in that satellite photo, that is your business, but it is dishonest to keep claiming there is no seawall or levee when the photos clearly show them.

[merh]

78. Whatever.

Again, an after the fact photo does not confirm the conditions at the time. I cannot say what the conditions were and neither can you.

And buddy, being in the storm, in a different location, I can tell you the water did rush, it was scarey as shit and if you weren't there you CANNOT say what happened.

Have a great life in the waves.

[alcibiades_mystery]

81. You got scorched, dude

The satellite photo clearly shows some kind of human-built structure in front of the church, and given its shape and location, almost certainly a seawall. The fact that you're reduced to saying "you weren't there" shows how thoroughly you've been drubbed here.

[merh]

87. Would you stop.

That is a storm surge photo - a storm surge that the experts are still studying.

Katrina's storm surge was 30 to 40 feet in some cases.

It was you that has been burned, by your own words and argument and by this photo. To quote you

But it isn't a wave or a storm surge. It is the risen sea level spilling over the top of a levee or dike.

Others have provided you information from noaa relative to what the image depicts. I have maintained all along that you are no expert, if you were you would not give an expert opinion without knowing the conditions present at the time.

You call the waters the ocean, when they are not. The depth of the waters is vital to understanding the phenonenom, the history of wave action along our shores, the height of the "seawall", etc.

This is storm surge buddy - do you even know what storm surge is?

Storm surge: An abnormal rise in sea level accompanying a hurricane or other intense storm. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/forcesofnature/resources/glossary.html

STORM SURGE: A rise of the sea, preceding a storm (usually a hurricane) due to the winds of the storm and low atmospheric pressure. http://ggweather.com/glossary.htm

Storm Surge: A dome-like rise in ocean level associated with a hurricane. The difference between this abnormal rise in sea level and the level that normally occurs is called the storm surge. It is highest along and to the immediate right of the location where the eye of the hurricane strikes land. http://www.fiu.edu/~ehs/emergencies/personal/emergency_hurricane_glossary.htm

[Atman]

89. Rule #1...

Stop digging.

[merh]

91. You dug buddy, yourself a hole.

Go back and read your posts and all that you have said as an expert.

This is storm surge.

[Atman]

92. I HAVE NEVER SAID IT WASN'T

I have only -- obviously REPEATEDLY -- said it is NOT the rushing wall of water you are making it out to be. PERIOD. I've stated that over and over again. If that wall had been a few feet higher, all you would see was a wall holding back water. That doesn't mean all that water isn't the result of a storm surge. What I have been saying all along is that this is not a rushing wall of water, as you claim. It is water spilling over the goddamn seawall! What is your fucking problem?

[merh]

96. Yes you did -- check your post 28.

It was a rushing wall of water. Do you want the links to the videos from all over the coast where these waters rushed in and took over and destroyed.

Grow the hell up and stop this. You have been trapped by your own words and by making judgment calls without the facts.

[Atman]

103. Okay, I did...

"...I'm just saying it isn't a wave or a direct "storm surge" of rushing water...."

And I'm still saying it. I've said it all along. It is NOT a wave. Right? It is not a wall of rushing water, right? I won't repeat the rest of it for the umpteenth time, because you've ceased listening, and are only interested in defending against the embarrassing position you've put yourself in.

Since our posts are becoming personal, I'm backing out of discussing this with you, lest the mods lock it as a flame war. I think the photo is fascinating. It is scary, and I'm glad you posted it. I'm sorry you take the facts so personally. You should have come to the game armed with them in the first place, because if there is one thing I've learned in my thousands of posts on DU, there is ALWAYS someone here who is an expert on any given subject, and the experts seem to be agreeing that there is a wall there. Just as I've said since my very first post.

Buh-bye.

[Squatch]

97. Man, you're absolutely daft if you think storm surge could manifest

itself in the form of a wall of water.

Hell, you said it yourself:

"A dome-like rise in ocean level associated with a hurricane.

Here's a picture of a dome.



The point of highest storm surge would be coincident with lowest barometric pressure, ie the center of the storm. The lowest point of storm surge would be coincident with highest barometric pressure, ie the edge of the storm.

THEREFORE, storm surge would appear to an observer as sea level gradually rising as that point of lowest barometric pressure approaches. It would not appear as a wall of water.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Squatch]

105. Excuse me?

"I am no expert and neither are you."

I agree with that first part and disagree with the second part.

I am a doctoral student at Old Dominion University's Ocean, Earth, and Atmospheric Sciences department. My studies are in the field of numerical modeling of physical oceanographic systems. So, yes, I AM an expert.

"real honest to god experts are studying it."

I would hope so. That does not mean that the laws of physics have changed during this storm.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stop the bleeding]

122. Here is more proof for the smackdown ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108



"what did the 5 fingers say to the face?"

SMACK!!!

[Atman]

124. This is the one which baffles me the most...

The denial of the existence of a seawall which is so clearly visible in so many different photos, and even mentioned as a concern of the Mayor and the Army Corp. Yet they're still staying "there is no seawall there!" At least Silverhair is trying for a little of each, "there is NO seawall, I've been there!" and alternately, "There is a seawall but it's only a 3 feet high."

I'll believe all the pictures and the mayor and the people charged with rebuilding the non-exsistent wall that perhaps it really does exist, since I can see it in every single photo posted, including the one in which the water is overtopping it.

[stop the bleeding]

125. including in the articles and contracts and other research that I posted

here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[Atman]

127. Well, remember...

A nun took the picture. So we must be wrong.

[merh]

140. Video you might find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=vN5yqNtg6ZI&search=Katrina

I have not tried to alter the laws of physics, I have challenged folks to try to ascertain all facts before spouting off.

If you are the expert you say you are, it would seem that you would have to agree with me on that.

Know all conditions before forming an opinion.

Everything I have stated about the waters are accurate from a layperson's position and in no way are intended to rewrite tha laws physics.

[Squatch]

141. I can't watch it at work...they disallow Java here, which sucks.

[Silverhair]

120. I have driven by there many times.

On the right you have sand beach, then the line is a 3 to 4 foot high seawall, then the land on the left of the seawall is about the height of the top of the seawall, then the land rises quickly as you go to the left.

[stop the bleeding]

123. Research shows that the wall is 6 feet high according to contracts

from the 1960's and recent news articles.

Research can be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[Silverhair]

128. Rises 3 to 4 feet above the beach. The rest is below beach level. NT

[The Straight Story]

129. Where are the trees in that photo?

Or where were they perhaps. Trying to figue out the shot angle and such. Not having an opinion either way on this (my first thought on seeing pic was there was a wall there) but I can also see argument for simple surge.

[The Straight Story]

130. also, to right of building is that the large rock we see in main photo?

ok will go back to work now and check in later :)

[Atman]

63. Okay, now you've got more 'splainin to do...

Why are the experts baffled over a storm surge? Even a big one? What is so baffling about this phenomenon? The only thing I find baffling about it is your denial that there is a seawall or levee cutting directly through the middle of the photo!

[merh]

64. They are still studying it.

They are smarter than you are, they gather all of the evidence they can find and they study it before making declarations.

They are baffled by many things about Katrina.

[Pobeka]

65. A little googling for images, that looks like a seawall.

1. Picture of OUR LADY OF THE GULF CATHOLIC CHURCH 228 South Beach Blvd.; Bay Saint Louis, MS 39520
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.neworleanschurches.com/olgulf/olgulf.htm&h=400&w=300&sz=43&tbnid=osCcLY5G5CgJ:&tbnh=120&tbnw=90&hl=en&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbay%2Bst%2Blouis%2Bour%2Blady%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

2. Map locating the exact location of the church


3. imagery from noaa of the post storm. You can identify the church in the lower right portion of this image (which is 4000x4000 pixels, you'll need to make sure you're looking at it full size. The church is right where it supposed to be based on the map in 2), and the 2 white towers match the overhead picture.



Taken from this page (very cool BTW)
http://alt.ngs.noaa.gov/katrina/089I30C_KATRINA.HTM

Looks like there's a seawall running the length of the shore entirely in front of the church, where the photo in the original post was claimed to be taken.

[Atman]

70. SMALLER VERSION...

Pobeka, thanks for the pic. I zoomed in on the spot for the big-screen/dial-up challenged...

[Pobeka]

71. You're welcome. It was kinda fun googling for images

And that perfectly straight line in the original picture made me sure
it was some sort of vertical wall.

[uppityperson]

132. delete. not worth it

[meisje]

30. water pouring over a flood wall

If that were a wave, the lady and photo would be long gone

[merh]

33. That was the storm surge.

There was no flood wall, that was the water coming over the shallow waters of the gulf.

[Botany]

39. No doubt that is a storm surge.

Although I thought I saw a "break wall" on the right side of the picture above the power line.

Amazing pix! Thanx for posting.

You can just see the water "stacked up" in the picture and the little break wall is nothing.




Do you know where on this map the pix was taken?

[merh]

60. I'll try to find out for you.

I'll let you know if I find out.

[meisje]

41. The surge hitting a flood wall maybe

You can clearly see the flood wall structure and the water pouring over it in the righthand portion of the photo.

[meisje]

43. You lack an understanding of the physics of water, sorry!

[merh]

You lack the understanding of what is out there and what

occurred.

Sorry

[merh]

55. See post 46

:hi:

[Schema Thing]

34. re: your disclaimer....

a picture is copyrighted when it's created. It's good to do the paperwork of course, but no worries if you don't. The paperwork is not the legal basis for copyright ownership, the creation of the photo is. Thanks for sharing that amazing pic.

[merh]

36. Thanks for the info.

It is an amazing image, I am just disappointed that folks are trying to explain it away.

I am sure the nun that took this image would remind me that I just need to pray for their misguided souls.

[uppityperson]

46. Tsunami warning signs on W coast being redone, surge info and picts

They look like a cresting wave and, as photos and movies from that last big tsunami showed, it is actually NOT a wave, but a wall of water being shoved onto land. They are afraid that people won't recognize a tsunami as such, looking for a big breaking wave. Likewise, a storm surge is a wall of water being shoved forwards.

Storm surge is simply water that is pushed toward the shore by the force of the winds swirling around the storm. This advancing surge combines with the normal tides to create the hurricane storm tide, which can increase the mean water level 15 feet or more. In addition, wind driven waves are superimposed on the storm tide. This rise in water level can cause severe flooding in coastal areas, particularly when the storm tide coincides with the normal high tides. Because much of the United States' densely populated Atlantic and Gulf Coast coastlines lie less than 10 feet above mean sea level, the danger from storm tides is tremendous.

The level of surge in a particular area is also determined by the slope of the continental shelf. A shallow slope off the coast (right, top picture) will allow a greater surge to inundate coastal communities. Communities with a steeper continental shelf (right, bottom picture) will not see as much surge inundation, although large breaking waves can still present major problems. Storm tides, waves, and currents in confined harbors severely damage ships, marinas, and pleasure boats...

more at link, including a little movie thing. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/HAW2/english/storm_surge.shtml

5 foot storm surge with a white horizontal line IN the water.


Smaller storm surge from Katrina

[Atman]

51. Those pictures bear no resemblance to the pic in question

The white horizontal line you speak of is the exact same thing as in the smaller bottom picture, just the water spilling over itself as it moves forward. It is nothing like the solid break cutting through the original photo we're discussing, on which I am willing to bet serious money is NOT an unobstructed storm surge. I am 99.9% confident that it is water spilling over something. I have looked at more pictures of waves and water than you'll likely see in your lifetime (I'm listed in the bibliography of the History of Surfing, btw). I'd love to hear from an oceanographer or other water-related scientist with the bona fides which would convince you where I cannot.

It's starting to sound like I'm bragging or something now. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to. I don't know what you do for a living, what your field of expertise is, but imagine how you'd feel if I came in and said everything you know about your work is wrong. I'm just that confident. You're wrong on this one. I have no doubt. Sorry if I'm being a prick about it.

[merh]

54. Thank you so very much uppityperson

The experts were thinking that they know it all and apparently they don't.

God love ya. You saved me from further pounding my head against a couple of walls. :hug: :loveya:

:yourock:

[Atman]

62. Okay, one more time...

I meant to post this as a standalone, not to be lost in the thread.

Check it out, from a few posts up the thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=95290

[gardenista]

67. It's obviously a sea wall or levee being breached.

I have no idea why anyone would think it is a wall of water. Water doesn't work that way, as you know.

In any case, it's a devastating photo, no matter whether or not there's a wall beneath those waves.

[Squatch]

77. I agree 100%.

There is no way water just "piles up" like that. Besides, it's very clear that it's flowing over some obstruction, possible a sea wall or a levee.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alcibiades_mystery]

82. You completely destroyed his argument

It's all over but the crying.

The satellite pic was a nice touch. Finito. No serious person can agree with him.

[Squatch]

84. And, I'm a graduate student in physical oceanography.

Working to my PhD in ocean science, namely mathematical and physical modeling of ocean systems.

[stop the bleeding]

85. Here is proof in writing for anyone who cares.. I am with U Atman

BAY ST. LOUIS — Mayor Eddie Favre is reviewing options for rebuilding a beachfront road that runs through Bay St. Louis' downtown business district.

<snip>
The county has asked the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to extend the seawall near Old Town about 40 feet further into the water, and instead of replacing the 6-foot wall, to add a concrete barrier standing as tall as the beach road.

The county will then begin the extraordinary task of filling the space between the new seawall and the beach with dirt, adding land where it has not existed in modern time.

Read full article here:

01/06/2006 Bay St. Louis to review rebuilding beachfront road-AP - clarionledger.com

also picture here showing seawall:



from this MSNBC article scroll down to photo and see where it was taken.

http://risingfromruin.msnbc.com/2005/10/it_took_hurrica.html


and now this on contract proposals from the 1960's maybe: you will need to scroll down a bit but it is there clear as day.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:AICDwwfUpPoJ:www.hq.usace.army.mil/history/Hurricane_files/Hurricane%2520Betsy%2520Final%2520Report.PDF+seawall+of+Bay+St.+Louis&hl=en

"9. OEP Request No. 3, dated 14 October 1965, requested a surveyof damage and estimate of eLigible repair cost for the entire length of seawall at Bay St. Louis, Mississippi (Hancock County). The finalpre-contract cost estimate was submitted to oEp on 30 March 1966.However! accomplishment of the repair work had been previouslyauthorized, in October 1965, by OEp Request No.5"

and from this it sounds like a seawall runs along a lot of the coast or at least a good stretch

"11. oEP Request No. 5, dated 27 october 1965, authorized emergency repair of the Hancock County Seawall and the removal of debris along itslength from U. S. Highway No. 90 in Bay St. LoiJis to the end of the seawall south of Waveland. A negoLiated contract for removal of thedebris was awarded 4 January 1-966 and removal was completed 1"1 March1966. The type of material and method of disposition were similarto those described for Harrison County i:r paragraph "

Also this article:

<snip>
The Army Corps of Engineers is ready to begin repairs to parts of the seawall in the Bay, but the project is being put on hold while local leaders mull a pricey facelift for Old Town.

"The plans for the area between Ulman Avenue and Washington Street are by far the most drastic," said county engineer Geoffrey Clemmons, who is helping coordinate the project.

The county will ask the Corps to extend the seawall near Old Town about 40 feet farther into the water, and instead of replacing the 6-foot wall, add a 15-foot concrete barrier.

12/07/2005 Bay has big plans for rebuilding Old Town- RYAN LAFONTAINE, sunherald.com

and for the last nail in the coffin look at this:


http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=Ulman+Ave+Bay,+Saint+Louis,+MO

this is a map of Ulman Ave and Washington Street which was referenced in the above article.

"The plans for the area between Ulman Avenue and Washington Street are by far the most drastic," said county engineer Geoffrey Clemmons, who is helping coordinate the project.

and then this the address of the church:



Thank you to all for playing..

[merh]

104. Thanks for the images.

What point are you trying to make.

Was this a wave or storm surge?

I don't understand?

[Squatch]

106. Storm surge FLOWING OVER AN OBSTRUCTION

namely, a levee.

[merh]

107. I have said all along it is storm surge

it is the other fellow that says differently.

[stop the bleeding]

109. A storm surge flowing over a SEAWALL. n/t

[Jacobin]

114. There is no sea wall in Bay St. Louis

I know the area pretty well.

There is a long long long slopping ocean shelf that goes out for miles from land. It only drops a couple of feet per mile in depth. Its like water in a big giant flat saucer. If there is enough wind from the right direction, this is what happens.

It happened like this in Cameron, LA during Rita, a month afer Katrina, and there is nothing left of Cameron except the courthouse, which also withstood hurricane Audry in 1957.

[stop the bleeding]

117. Not according to this research - read the full post please

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

After reading all of the articles, contracts from the 1960's and the maps of google, the research clearly shows a Seawall, Wall, Structure ect.

Read the full post and go to the links.

[Silverhair]

142. I LIVED THERE, I HAVE SEEN IT !!!!

What you are looking at in the pictures is an old wall build a long time ago. Only about three feet of it is above beach level. On the land side of the wall, the land is even with the top of the wall. So it is actually like a small cliff. Water can't pour over it as in a waterfall as there is no drop on the land side.

Part of the old wall is now underground.

[Squatch]

111. No, you've been attempting to rewrite the laws of physics.

"This is Katrina's storm surge before it slammed the city of Bay St. Louis."

"The wave is not breaking yet, it is building, it is being forced into land."

"This is a huge wall of water being forced into shore."

"That is not water spilling over, that is water building, the tons of water that was being forced to shore by the storm."

"It was a rushing wall of water."

"That was the storm surge. There was no flood wall, that was the water coming over the shallow waters of the gulf."

[stop the bleeding]

112. Storm Surge over a SEAWALL - read this post clearly showing the

history of Bay St. Louis

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[uppityperson]

131. Are you saying that huge wave is pouring over a 6 ft wall?

I think people are partially arguing semantics here. Seawall, levy, mean different things to different people. Yes, there is a barrier at part of BayStLouis. You are right and she is wrong that there is/was a barrier of some sort. However, this is NOT a levy or a seawall meant to keep out big waves, more like what we have here for keeping out small waves, keeping the beach from washing away in normal weather. I would NOT say this is a levy or seawall meant to keep out hurricanes, as is obvious from your quoted article. So yes, there is A seawall and no, there is no seawall comperable to what is in merh's picture.

I, for one, do not believe that the huge storm surge seen in merh's picture is pouring over a 6 ft wall. I could be wrong, but it seems bigger than that.

Secondly, storm surges behave in non-intuitive ways that many people have no idea of. I don't care where you live, what you do, sometimes things happen that you don't know of.

Thirdly, people are getting insulting, starting to post borderline "smacked" sort of comments about the argument of this photo's authenticity. If you are one of those posters, be ashamed of yourself.

[Bridget Burke]

86. OK. What is the "something" the water is flowing over?

I'm sure you can find out the name of the specific structure you see in the picture.

[Atman]

88. It's the seawall.

Clear as day. Read the posts just above yours if you'd like. You're jumping in late in the thread, but this has all been done. It is a seawall, as evidenced by the news clipping stating the SEAWALL needed to be rebuilt, and the satellite photo showing a long SEAWALL running along the shore. Simple.

[Swamp Rat]

68. kick and recommended n/t

[EFerrari]

72. What a terrifying sight.

How in the world did she force herself to stand still long enough to shot this?

[malaise]

74. Damn

Tell Bushco this is real power.

[stop the bleeding]

75. West coast Florida here - and this gives me great pause - I don't

know what else to say.

I feel like someone just punched me in the gut.

I'm really at a loss here.

I can't imagine something like this hitting the Tampa Bay area, it would be catastrophic to say the least.

Between Sarasota, Pinellas, Pasco, and Hillsborough counties there would be around a million people that would not be able to leave because of age, finances ect.

Thank you for posting this so that I can refer to it next year during Hurricane season.

[darkstar]

83. OK, some reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_surge#Mechanics_of_the_storm_surge


More:


http://www.earthscape.org/r3/stewart/stewart28.html#18.3

[merh]

90. Thank you darkstar.

:hi:

I hope you and yours are doing well. :hug:

[darkstar]

93. More....

Sure thing. I'm moving soon, but thought I'd check in here. Will pm upon settling in.

I've covered gulf bathymetry surge modeling conferences and walls of water (vs cresting waves) can indeed be created, epecially in shallow slopes. I.e the "piling up" language below...


http://www.srh.noaa.gov/mlb/VOLUS.html

Regarding interpretation of the data, it is important to understand that the configuration (narrow or wide) and depth (bathymetry) of the ocean bottom will have a bearing on surge and wave heights. A narrow shelf, or one that drops steeply from the shoreline and subsequently produces deep water in close proximity to the shoreline, tends to produce a lower surge but a higher and more powerful wave. Those regions which have a long, gently sloping shelf and shallower normal water depths, can expect a higher surge but smaller waves. The reason this occurs is because a surge in deeper water can be dispersed down and out away from the hurricane. However, once that surge reaches a shallow gently sloping shelf it can no longer be dispersed away from the hurricane, consequently water "piles-up" as it is driven ashore by the wind stresses of the hurricane.


That's not to say that anyone can say for certainty what's beeing seen here. But the distinct take home message at one conference I attended here in south LA was that non-breaking walls as great as 20 feet can be created along the gulf coast.

[Atman]

95. No argument here.

I am well versed in what storm surges are, even without being an oceanographer. I don't claim to be one, but I do claim some common sense. Since you know how water behaves so well, perhaps you can explain to me what the strong horizontal line is cutting right through the front of this rushing wall of water, which is giving it the characteristics of a waterfall instead of an moving wall of water. And, while your at it, how that jibes with the satellite photo and mehr's insistence that there is no seawall there, despite the pics and the mayor and the Army Corp of Engineers saying that one that mehr is saying isn't there must be repaired. I'm just baffled. I guess the seawall washed ashore with the storm surge, maybe carried in from the deep sea wall breeding grounds in the gulf.

:eyes:

[darkstar]

108. I'm no expert

I'm a science writer here in S. LA, but I write mostly about wetlands/loss. Like I said, I have no idea what I'm seeing in the picture above.

But non-breaking walls (which I always took to be steeply sloped swells vs what we are seeing here) are indeed possible according to the 3-D animations and such presented at conferences.

I'm clearly out of my depth (pardon the pun). No way I'm an expert. Just trying to shed light on what is possible, not analyze this particualr photo.

Good luck.

[stop the bleeding]

99. here you go - no argument on your research on storm surge

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[merh]

101. I didn't realize you were moving.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing for you and yours?

Again, thanks for the information, this helps me better understand things. I don't know where she was when she took this image, I don't know all of the conditions present at the time and I am no expert.

The image is what it is.

[stop the bleeding]

98. here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[stop the bleeding]

100. read my full post please

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=94470&mesg_id=97108

[Squatch]

94. Yet more reading:

A little more accurate than Wikipedia

[bpilgrim]

110. WOW - added to the katrina archive

http://GlobalFreePress.com

peace

[Feron]

113. This picture was taken in Louisiana supposedly

I got this exact picture in an email and
this was the caption:

"This is a pic of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet (MRGO) storm surge. This is
a view from the power station under the Paris Road bridge. Note the fence in
the lower left of the pic. This is the fence that goes up the levee. The water
is coming from the lake toward the river."

I looked on the Our Lady of the Gulf Church site and all of the pictures seem to be of recovery. Granted I didn't look at all of the pictures ,but if you have the link please share it with us.

Other than this site or email, I haven't seen the picture anywhere else including google.

[Atman]

118. Hehe...he slammed me for suggesting it might not even be MS

Although there sure as hell is SOMETHING looking like a seawall, and the seawall that doesn't exist sure does seem to be drawing the interest of the mayor and the Army Corps of Engineers.

[intheflow]

115. Jesus, mehr!

That's unbelievable! Unbelievable that it's so gigantic, unbelieveable that you can see how much tree damage there was before the surge hit, unbelieveable that both the nun and the film survived! I can see why people were reporting that the water went way out like it was reported happened at the tsunami--whether it did or not, it kind of looks like it given the size of the surge in this photo.

Is the nun's name really Sister Katrina? And do you think she'd mind if I used it in fundraising presentations?

[Squatch]

116. Surge doesn't "hit"...it builds

like an abnormally high tidal fluctuation.

[Silverhair]

126. Since you are a studing science, you realize that it is important...

...to know the initial conditions.

I lived close to there.

There is no levee. There is a SMALL seawall. A long time ago, a seawall was built to fight erosion and it was not a good idea as it promoted erosion. The seawall is about six feet high. Every few years sand is suctioned from the Mississippi sound bottom and pumped next to the seawall to create a beach. Yes, the beach is artificial. The seawall rises about 3 feet above the level of the beach and the top of the seawall is even with the land behind it. It does NOT rise above the level of the land behind it, so there cannot be a waterfall effect. No place to fall to. There are no levees or other walls. Depending on the exact part of the beach, the land continues to rise, either quickly or gradually. In the downtown part of BSL, the land rises very quickly, almost like a cliff. In other parts it rises more gradually. I don't remember what the gradient is for where the picture was taken.

[Silverhair]

133. For the doubters:

Check out this picture of a 16 foot high wall of water in a Florida Hurrican Storm Surge.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/wea00416.htm&h=1196&w=1804&sz=2076&tbnid=Z4VneTplAqYJ:&tbnh=99&tbnw=150&hl=en&start=11&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhurricane%2Bstorm%2Bsurge%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3Dlang_en%26newwindow%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

If that doesn't work, Google, enter "Hurricane Storm Surge", click images, third row, third column.

[Squatch]

134. That is a rather large wave.

You can actually see the remnants of preceeding wave after it broke on the wall to the right of the picture.

[Silverhair]

137. Notice the shape.

On the left, it is level, then a wall of water 16 feet high, then the water is close to level on the right.

You don't know that the black line is a wall. It could easily be something in the background, like a beach road. Also, take a look at the wave wall in the background.

[Squatch]

138. Actually, the back side of the wave slopes down to the left

when compared to the horizon line in the background.

[Silverhair]

143. So slightly as to negligible. NT

[merh]

139. Have you seen these videos?

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=vN5yqNtg6ZI&search=Katrina
video of storm surge east of the area in this photo



August 29, 2005: Hurricane Katrina, Gulfport MS - CHASE SUMMARY
Click for a video clip from the parking garage in Gulfport during the storm
Video Clip (4m30s, 10MB WMV)
http://facethewind.com/chase2005/katrina/index.shtml

[Blue_In_AK]

144. Merh, that if an AMAZING photograph...

Thanks for posting it. I hope your life is returning to somewhat normal. :hug:

[tedzbear]

145. This storm surge is not as big as it looks...

It LOOKS like the camera angle is below the tallest waves, but that is an illusion due to the mist creating a false horizon. What the mist is blocking is more waves rushing in. Otherwords, we are looking down at the waves, not up at them. I think this surge is only six feet deep, not thirty. The top of the sea wall that is clearly visible above the power line is probably only four feet high.

Too bad there isn't something that is easily measurable poking out of the waves that would allow one to gadge the size of the area. I will bet my ass that this surge is NO WHERE NEAR as BIG as it looks.

And how do we know this was taken by a nun in Mississippi??? COME ON, Folks! It could be a sea wall in Japan or Russia.

[Moderator]

146. Locking

This discussion seems to have run its course