"It May Not Be Nazi Germany - It Might Be a LOT WORSE" -->

[Dr. Jones]

So why, now, when I hear GWB's speeches, do I think of Hitler? Why have I drawn a parallel between the Nazis and the present administration? Just one small reason -the phrase 'Never forget'. Never let this happen again. It is better to question our government - because it really can happen here - than to ignore the possibility.

So far, I've seen nothing to eliminate the possibility that Bush is on the same course as Hitler. And I've seen far too many analogies to dismiss the possibility. The propaganda. The lies. The rhetoric. The nationalism. The flag waving. The pretext of 'preventive war'. The flaunting of international law and international standards of justice. The disappearances of 'undesirable' aliens. The threats against protesters. The invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation. The occupation of a hostile country. The promises of prosperity and security. The spying on ordinary citizens. The incitement to spy on one's neighbors - and report them to the government. The arrogant triumphant pride in military conquest. The honoring of soldiers. The tributes to 'fallen warriors. The diversion of money to the military. The demonization of government appointed 'enemies'. The establishment of 'Homeland Security'. The dehumanization of 'foreigners'. The total lack of interest in the victims of government policy. The incarceration of the poor and mentally ill. The growing prosperity from military ventures. The illusion of 'goodness' and primacy. The new einsatzgrupen forces. Assassination teams. Closed extralegal internment camps. The militarization of domestic police. Media blackout of non-approved issues. Blacklisting of protesters - including the no-fly lists and photographing dissenters at rallies.

There isn't much doubt in my mind - anyone who compares the history of Hitler's rise to power and the progression of recent events in the US cannot avoid the parallels. It's incontrovertible. Is Bush another Hitler? Maybe not, but with each incriminating event, the parallel grows -it certainly cannot be dismissed. There's too much evidence already. Just as Hitler used American tactics to plan and execute his reign, it looks as if Karl Rove is reading Hitler's playbook to plan world domination - and that is the stated intent of both. From the Reichstag fire to the landing at Nuremberg to the motto of "Gott Mit Uns" to the unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq to the insistence that peace was the ultimate goal, the line is unbroken and unwavering.

I'm afraid now, that what may still come to pass is a reign far more savage and barbaric than that of the Nazis. Already, appeasement has been fruitless - it only encourages the brazen to escalate their arrogance and braggadocio. Americans support Bush - by a generous majority - and mass media sings his praises while indicting his detractors - or silencing their opinions completely. The American people seem to care only about the domestic economic situation - and even in that, they are in complete denial. They don't want to hear about Iraq, and Afghanistan is already forgotten. Even the Democratic opposition supports the occupation of Iraq. Everyone seems to agree that Saddam Hussein deserves to be executed -with or without a trial. 'Visitors' are fingerprinted. Guilty until proven innocent. Snipers are on New York City rooftops. When do the Stryker teams start appearing on American streets? They're perfectly suited for 'Homeland Security' - and they've had a trial run in Iraq. The Constitution has been suspended - until further notice. Dick Cheney just mentioned it may be for decades - even a generation, as Rice asserts as well. Is this the start of the 1000 year reign of this new collection of thugs? So it would seem.

Source: http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/3201

[exlrrp]

1. When's the Night Of The Long Knives coming?

Better buy guns, liberals. Never forget!!

[formercia]

5. Already have mine.

I put forward a similar theory a couple of years ago on another board and people said I was nuts and that I was wearing a tin foil hat.

Watta ya say now folks?

[Cleita]

24. Link for those who don't know what it's about,

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/night_of_the_long_knives.htm

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. "Haffner saw what was starting to happen...

...but retreated into his law studies. Even while the Brownshirts were beating and killing people in the streets, the courts with which he worked remained a solid bulwark in defense of traditional democratic principles. And then one day, the Nazis simply marched into the Berlin court buildings and took over Germany's judicial system..."

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm

How long before we see this happen here?

[NotGivingUp]

3. For those who can't see it...take off your blinders and uncover your ears!

[hobbit709]

4. My mother is from Austria

She remembers all too well. She says everything the idiot says is exactly what she heard back then-the lies, the propaganda, the loss of rights, the "Homeland Security"(check the meaning in German of Gestapo).

[Kellanved]

6. An article first published in January 2004 making that statement

Seems to be a self-invalidating point.

[petgoat]

45. Self invalidating maybe if you believe in the veracity of the

2004 elections. Remember the silence and fierce ridicule about the anomalies?

And even if you believe 51% voted for Bush, so what? Didn't 80% of Germans
ratify Hitler's ascension to the post of Führer in the plebiscite in 1935?

[BeFree]

7. Hitler had no opposition

Neither does bush, just us lefties

Hitler had the bush family financing him
same today

The similarities are erie, eh?

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. Caution, graphic image (not for the squeamish)...

[seemslikeadream]

9. It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

Song Of Choice
Early every year, seeds are growing
Unseen, unheard, they lie beneath the ground
Would you know before the leaves are showing
That with weeds all your garden will abound?

If you close your eyes, stop your ears
Hold your mouth, how can you know?
The seeds you cannot see may not be there
The seeds you cannot hear may never grow

In January you've still got the choice
You can cut the weeds before they start to bud
If you leave them to grow higher, they'll silence your voice
And in December you may pay with your blood

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and take it slow
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Everyday another vulture takes flight
There's another danger born every morning
In the darkness of your blindness the beast will learn to bite
How can you fight if you can't recognize a warning?

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth and then you know
Let others take the lead and you bring up the rear
And later you can say you didn't know

Today you may earn a living wage
Tomorrow you may be on the dole
Though there's millions going hungry, you needn't disengage
For it's them, not you, that's fallen in the hole

It's alright for you if you run with the pack
It's alright if you agree with all they do
If the fascist's party slowly climbing back
It's not here yet, so what's it got to do with you?

The weeds are all around us and they're growing
It will soon be too late for the knife
If you leave them on the wind that around the world is blowing
You may pay for your silence with your life

Close your eyes, stop your ears
Close your mouth, they're never there
And if it happens here, they'll never come for you
Because they'll know you really didn't care

Peggy Segger

[bloom]

10. One thing that some people say is different

is they assume that there are no gas chambers or concentrations camps. (Of course we do know about Guantanamo and Abu Gharib and others...)

But would we know? Did the Germans all know what all was going on? I doubt it. And we can't count on it.

[Cleita]

32. Also, the worst camps weren't in Germany but nations they

had occupied, like Austria and Poland, so the Germans weren't bumping into the atrocities on a daily basis. The Jews were criminalized first for breaking Draconian laws like going shopping which had been made illegal for them, so when the were rounded up and arrested, their neighbors considered them criminals. This is how pervasive the propaganda was so they turned a blind eye and often turned their neighbors in as law breakers. It reminds me of those wanting to criminalize the Mexicans who walk across our borders for work and all the Americans in the chorus shouting that they broke the law. What's next now that this salvo has been fired?

[cosmicdot]

134. & maybe whatever KBR Halliburton is building ("detention centers")

"KBR announced ... that its Government and Infrastructure division has been awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract to support the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facilities in the event of an emergency."
http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/news.jsp?newsurl=/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/kbrnws_012406.html

Indefinite delivery/Indefinite quantity contract?? ... that sounds pretty indefinite ... why haven't the Democrats raised concern over this contract? stock ownership in Halliburton???

sure, it could be just another boondoggle ... but, I'd rather them build windmills

Some concerns raised by a "Black Commentator" article



The contract may also provide migrant detention support to other U.S. Government organizations in the event of an immigration emergency, as well as the development of a plan to react to a national emergency, such as a natural disaster. In the event of a natural disaster, the contractor could be tasked with providing housing for ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) personnel performing law enforcement functions in support of relief efforts."

Anyone paying a little bit of attention will ask, "What immigration emergency?"

[GuvWurld]

11. Depleted Uranium >>> Bush Is Already Worse

Thanks to Depleted Uranium, Bush has condemned to death far, far more people than Hitler ever killed.

[what the]

129. Naturally Ocurring Uranium

The average concentration of uranium is 2.7 million parts per million of the earth's crust. Therefore, a kilogram of average dirt has about 2.7 milligrams of uranium-- enough to see if it were separated from the dirt. Compare this to iodine, an essential nutrient, which is only 0.5 parts per million average concentration in the earth's crust -- about five times less. You are already surrounded by uranium from natural sources. It is in the dust in the air that you breathe. It is in rock, soil, and concrete. The depleted uranium dispersed by weapons is insignificant compared to this natural amount of uranium.

[GuvWurld]

135. US Soldiers Use Nuclear Weapons In The Field

Welcome to DU what the. :hi:

Here are some Depleted Uranium references for you.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16272

Weapon of Mass Deception
By Frida Berrigan, In These Times
June 27, 2003

(snip)

A toxic and radioactive substance, depleted uranium (DU) – otherwise known as Uranium 238 – was widely used by U.S. troops as their Abrams battle tanks and A-10 Warthogs thundered through Iraq this spring.

Depleted uranium is a byproduct of enriched uranium, the fissile material in nuclear weapons. It is pyrophoric, burning spontaneously on impact. That, along with its extreme density, makes depleted uranium munitions the Pentagon's ideal choice for penetrating an enemy's tank armor or reinforced bunkers.

When a DU shell hits its target, it burns, losing anywhere from 40 to 70 percent of its mass and dispersing a fine dust that can be carried long distances by winds or absorbed directly into the soil and groundwater.

Depleted uranium's radioactive and toxic residue has been linked to birth defects, cancers, the Gulf War Syndrome, and environmental damage.

More...

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0722-03.htm

PERSIAN GULF WARS

Warning of toxic aftermath from uranium munitions

By ANTHONY CARDINALE
News Staff Reporter (Originally Published in Buffalo News)
7/22/2003

The American use of depleted uranium munitions in both Persian Gulf wars has unleashed a toxic disaster that will eclipse the Agent Orange tragedy of the Vietnam War, a former top Army official said Monday evening.

Former Maj. Douglas Rokke, who was director of the Army's depleted uranium project, spoke to 125 people at the Buffalo & Erie County Historical Society. The Champaign, Ill., science professor was brought here by the Western New York Peace Center.

(snip)

Rokke said his team in the gulf blew up vehicles and structures with these munitions and then tested the wreckage for radioactive contamination. He said they found that uranium dust is so fine that it acts like a gas, seeping through the tiny pores of protective masks.

(snip)

"It's like playing darts," he said, "except you're playing with 10 pounds of solid uranium and it catches fire immediately. You lose nearly 40 percent of the round in uranium dust. It contaminates air, water and soil for all eternity."

MORE...

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR407A.html

Depleted Uranium: The Trojan Horse of Nuclear War

by Leuren Moret
World Affairs – The Journal of International Issues, July 2004
www.globalresearch.ca 8 July 2004

The use of depleted uranium weaponry by the United States, defying all international treaties, will slowly annihilate all species on earth including the human species, and yet this country continues to do so with full knowledge of its destructive potential.

Since 1991, the United States has staged four wars using depleted uranium weaponry, illegal under all international treaties, conventions and agreements, as well as under the US military law. The continued use of this illegal radioactive weaponry, which has already contaminated vast regions with low level radiation and will contaminate other parts of the world over time, is indeed a world affair and an international issue. The deeper purpose is revealed by comparing regions now contaminated with depleted uranium — from Egypt, the Middle East, Central Asia and the northern half of India — to the US geostrategic imperatives described in Zbigniew Brzezinski’s 1997 book The Grand Chessboard.

MORE...

Depleted Uranium is Mr. Bush's slow-motion holocaust.

[what the]

142. Uranium Toxicity

Depleted uranium is uranium 238. U238 has a half life of 4.5 billion years. The longer the half-life, the less radioactive output. U238 is just not very radioactive. Uranium is a toxic chemical because it is a heavy metal, like lead, mercury or cadmium.

The depleted uranium dispersed by weapons is the same as the natural uranium in rocks and soil, except D.U. is 40% less radioactive than natural uranium due to removal of some of the U235 isotope.

Instead of posting a bunch of political screeds, please respond to this point. Tell me what you think, not what other people think. Respond please-- do you agree that there is already a significant amount of uranium in the rocks and soil around you?

[GuvWurld]

145. Puh-leeze

Political screed? You must be joking...or working for the Pentagon :crazy:

I gave you the science that has been reported by media and the military members that I know. I could give you dozens more articles that say the same things I highlighted above. You have given us...your word. So what.

I have worked closely with my local chapter of Vets For Peace for the past two years. I encourage everyone to support this group wherever you are. Here is a page from our site that has links to many resources on Depleted Uranium. Let's talk again in 4.5 billion years.

what the?

[what the]

146. Killing far far more people than Hitler

Your first post said that depleted uranium will kill far, far more people than Hitler ever did. This is tens of millions of people, right? You then jump to the local effects of D.U. at high concentrations at the point of impact of a weapon. It's toxic-- like some other heavy metals.

Do you believe that D.U. will kill tens of millions of people, miles and miles away from the point of impact? They have been firing these rounds into ranges in the Mojave Desert for over thirty years. Is everyone in Southern California also doomed?

--------------------------------

One of your sites quotes a 1943 Manhattan Project memo: "As a gas warfare instrument the material would be ground into particles of microscopic size to form dust and smoke and distributed by a ground-fired projectile, land vehicles, or aerial bombs. In this form it would be inhaled by personnel. The amount necessary to cause death to a person inhaling the material is extremely small … There are no known methods of treatment for such a casualty … it will permeate a standard gas mask filter in quantities large enough to be extremely damaging."

This refers to highly radioactive waste from a nuclear reactor, not D.U., and was proposed before the first successful bomb test, as a backup plan. It's a bloody minded idea, and was never implemented. To say this memo refers to D.U. is willfully deceiving.
See this book: "The Making of the Atomic Bomb," by Richard Rhodes.

-----------------------------
My source for the concentrations of uranium and iodine in the earth's crust is the "Handbook of Chemistry and Physics," CRC Press, Boca Raton, Fla. It's a standard chemistry reference. Look in your local library's reference section. Look up "Elements/Earth's Crust" in the index. It's 2.7 parts per million uranium on average. You can do a quick estimate that this is about 100 grams per acre in the top inch of soil. Do you accept that uranium is all around you already, from natural sources?
-----------------------------

None of your internet sources are peer-reviewed scientific journals, and none of them cite peer-reviewed scientific journals. They are political newsletters. If you are working with vets, good for you. But nothing good can come out of falsehood. You are pushing a much larger role for D.U. than the facts support, namely large-scale, widespread loss of life. "Far far more than Hitler killed."

[GuvWurld]

147. DU is not the same as natural uranium - look who you are challenging

You said:

"The depleted uranium dispersed by weapons is the same as the natural uranium in rocks and soil"

This is not true. DU is nuclear waste.

You said:

"U238 is just not very radioactive."

This is dangerously ignorant. Are you also going to tell us you are a holocaust denier?

DU emits 450 million alpha particles, 900 million beta particles and 900 million gamma rays every year. Medical science recognizes tissue exposure to just one alpha particle can initiate cancer.

Above you said to post my original thoughts. Well I don't claim to be an expert on this subject so instead I point others to credible resources. You are not one. You have taken a position that is not opposite me, but opposite many prominent people and organizations. Do you really mean to so thoroughly dismiss the dangers of DU that you would consider the work of all these folks completely debunked and dismissed? Do you take them all as fools?

National Gulf War Resource Center
www.ngwrc.org

Citizen Soldier
www.citizen-soldier.org

Dennis Kyne
www.denniskyne.com/media/

International Depleted Uranium Study Team
www.idust.net

International Coalition to Ban Uranium Weapons
www.bandepleteduranium.org

Campaign Against Depleted Uranium
www.cadu.org.uk

Stop DU Campaign
www.stopdu.org

Military Toxics Project
www.miltoxproj.org/DU

WISE Uranium Project
www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium

Uranium Medical Research Center
www.umrc.net

[aikoaiko]

12. Everytime I hear Bush = Hitler, I cringe.

He's a bad president and I want a democrat in office next, but it just seems like hyperbole and I think its a bit insulting to political moderates who voted for him but are now thinking of voting democrat.

[leftchick]

15. apparently

you did not read the article? It is an extremely appropriate comparison.

[rinsd]

18. Ugh.....

Why this incessant needs to cling to Bush=Hitler?

Bush's fascism is going to be different from Hitler's which was different than Franco's which was different from Mussolini's which was different than Tito's which was different from Pinichet and so on and so forth.

Bush = Hitler is lazy and probably self defeating.

[RaleighNCDUer]

22. But Hitler, and Franco, and Mussolini, and Tito, and Pinochet

and Stalin, for that matter, had certain things in common.

Things that are recognizable in Bush. It's not so much tha Bush=Hitler as Bush=Fascism.

[rinsd]

27. "It's not so much tha Bush=Hitler as Bush=Fascism"

And that is exactly my point.

[Zynx]

47. If you look hard enough I could make comparisons with a dozen US

presidents to Hitler. Reagan, Nixon, Johnson, Eisenhower, and FDR all had some things in common with authoritarians. Thus, Bush-Hitler comparisons are out of line. Not all authoritarians are created equal. Just because they share certain traits does not mean you compare them because it is absurd to compare Bush to the most evil man in world history.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

25. And to simply make the flat declaration...

...that "Bush=Hitler is lazy and probably self defeating" is NOT intellectually lazy?

Nowhere in the original post does the author simply state that Bush=Hitler. You unjustifiably jump to that because parallels are drawn between the two.

If you think some or all of the comparisons made between present day America and the early beginnings of Nazi Germany are not valid, why not do the intellectually responsible (as opposed to lazy) thing and methodically debunk each one?

[rinsd]

30. Why so upset?

"Nowhere in the original post does the author simply state that Bush=Hitler. You unjustifiably jump to that because parallels are drawn between the two."

I believe that was the author's intention, was it not?

"If you think some or all of the comparisons made between present day America and the early beginnings of Nazi Germany are not valid, why not do the intellectually responsible (as opposed to lazy) thing and methodically debunk each one. "

I think the 14 points of fascism covers it. Again, you center on the flavor of fascism at the risk of being dismissed. The point is Bush = Fascism and that may not look like fascism we have seen before. Even the author seems to recognize that though they go for the ultra scary scenario.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

39. The unwillingness to acknowledge obvious, valid ...

...historical comparisons for fear of being dismissed is what makes the Democratic Party so weak, and serves only to strengthen the GOP. You should challenge Dem leadership on this rather than go along with it. Dem leadership's unwillingness to honestly and openly speak to the reality of election fraud is what will make stealing these upcoming midterms so easy for the GOP.

Cowering from the reality of what Hitler represented is what the German populace chose to do. If you need a refresher on the results of that decision, see post #8.

[rinsd]

42. Sigh.....

Its not "fear" being dismissed, its reluctance to making an intellectually shaky argument for the purposes of propaganda that is unlikely to be effective. Going point by point through the 14 points of fascism is usually alot more effective. Why? The same reason a survey came out where most Americans are convinced that the nation is overweight but they are not.

You might as well start a Bush kills puppies meme for all the effect it will have outside of the echo chamber.

"Cowering from the reality of what Hitler represented is what the German populace chose to do."

Go forth brave keyboard keyboard warrior, that meme needs more beting into the ground.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

46. I share your "Sigh"...

...as swimming against the overwhelming tide of denial is somewhat exhausting.

I note with some interest that in your "reluctance to making an intellectually shaky argument" you repeatedly choose to make no argument at all.

Again, if you think the comparisons are not valid, why not cite them and then go about methodically debunking each one via rational, well reasoned argument?

[rinsd]

60. How is it possible to deal with the comparisons?

When the author produces a list with few examples.

" So far, I've seen nothing to eliminate the possibility that Bush is on the same course as Hitler. And I've seen far too many analogies to dismiss the possibility. The propaganda. The lies. The rhetoric. The nationalism. The flag waving. The pretext of 'preventive war'. The flaunting of international law and international standards of justice. The disappearances of 'undesirable' aliens. The threats against protesters. The invasion of a non-threatening sovereign nation. The occupation of a hostile country. The promises of prosperity and security. The spying on ordinary citizens. The incitement to spy on one's neighbors - and report them to the government. The arrogant triumphant pride in military conquest. The honoring of soldiers. The tributes to 'fallen warriors. The diversion of money to the military. The demonization of government appointed 'enemies'. The establishment of 'Homeland Security'. The dehumanization of 'foreigners'. The total lack of interest in the victims of government policy. The incarceration of the poor and mentally ill. The growing prosperity from military ventures. The illusion of 'goodness' and primacy. The new einsatzgrupen forces. Assassination teams. Closed extralegal internment camps. The militarization of domestic police. Media blackout of non-approved issues. Blacklisting of protesters - including the no-fly lists and photographing dissenters at rallies"

This is list does me little good without examples.

What is this fascination with having to be in the most dire of conditions? Its not enough to be in the fascism we are in we have to be in the worst fascism ever!

And the author? For someone who purports knows so much about Hitler and Germany, they seem to have zero clue how savage Nazi Germany actually was. Comparing the no fly list and having your picture taken with actually being blacklisted in Nazi Germany is silly at best(not being able to work or collect a pension, shunned by friends, arrested without reason, ending up in a work camp), which brings me to another very real point. Desensitizing of the horrific for the purposes of political shock value. Again its not that Bush is not fascist but that his fascism is likely to be different than Nazis(though sharing the previously discussed 14 points).

Do me a favor read Klemper's diaries, at least vol# 1. They aren't the easiest read but they weave the day to day events as the Nazis grew more and more powerful in the 1930's.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

91. "Comparing the no fly list...

...and having your picture taken with actually being blacklisted in Nazi Germany is silly at best(not being able to work or collect a pension, shunned by friends, arrested without reason, ending up in a work camp),..."

You seem to interpret comparison/analogy between to different things, made for the purpose of illustrating some point, as a flat declaration that the things being compared are exactly the same, and in so doing you MISS the point. The no fly list, compiled under the guise of national security, has been used as an instrument for intimidation of GOP political foes (Ted Kennedy, for one). This seems a fitting analogy to me since political adversaries were also blacklisted in Nazi Germany. The fact that BushCo isn't yet (and may never) round these people up for execution or concentration camps does not, in my opinion, invalidate the comparison. Our government shouldn't be compiling lists of people to target for intimidation or anything else based on their political affiliation or participation in peaceful political dissent, and it IS the stuff of Nazi Germany.

[rinsd]

95. Okay

But how does this intimidation of political foes directly relate to Nazi Germany vs some other authoritarian regime? What makes that especially Nazi therefore justifying the comparison?

"does not, in my opinion, invalidate the comparison"

To be honest, I doubt there is anything that could sway you from your opinion.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

99. I'm not arguing that...

...comparison to some other authoritarian regime couldn't be done with equal or perhaps greater validity. Are you now suggesting that if such an analogy can be found/made that the comparison to Nazi Germany is then somehow rendered invalid? I don't understand this reasoning.

[rinsd]

103. It's the about the need for the comparison to be Nazi Germany

vs. other regimes or just authoritarianism/fascism itself.

What makes what Bush had done more Nazi than Stalinist? More Nazi than Francoism?

Or is it simply authoritarianism that has its own unique flavor?

"Are you now suggesting that if such an analogy can be found/made that the comparison to Nazi Germany is then somehow rendered invalid?"

If the analogy/comparison is likely more apt to another historical situation, then yes it is not valid because then the purpose is for propaganda value which as discussed before is far more likely to completely ineffective even destructive to one's goals.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

110. "If the analogy/comparison...

...is likely more apt to another historical situation, then yes it is not valid because then the purpose is for propaganda value which as discussed before is far more likely to completely ineffective even destructive to one's goals."

Interesting position.

Let's take the comparison of apples and oranges. I'm sure you're familiar with the old expression: "That's like comparing apples and oranges," used to suggest the comparison is not really valid or meaningful because apples and oranges are...well, very different. And apples and oranges certainly are different in many respects. If, however, I were to boldly go ahead and make a comparison between apples and oranges pointing out that they're both fruits, about the same size, and grow on trees, would you say my comparison was valid? Or would you quickly point out that a pear is also about the same size as an apple, also grows on trees, and is more similar to the apple in texture and taste than an orange, thereby rendering my comparison nothing more than fruity propaganda?

It's the context of the analogy and the validity of the point being made that matters, rinsd, not whether the two things being compared are exactly alike. Hitler and Bush are not exactly alike, neither are apples and oranges. Valid analogies can, however, be drawn between both, and if there's ever been a time for us to learn from the single worst historical example of crimes against humanity (Nazi Germany) that time is now.

[datasuspect]

124. bush does kill puppies

fer real!

[Zynx]

48. We're weak because we don't scream "Bush is a Nazi!"?

I could draw historical comparisons between FDR and Hitler that would make your skin crawl if I wanted to. Do you want me to do that?

Now I don't do it because there is a matter of degree in all of this. Just because a president does a few things that you can call similar to what Hitler did does not make a Hitler comparison justified. In my mind, whenever anyone brings out the Hitler comparison, I immediately think death camps and total war that killed a combined nearly 60 million people in Europe. Then I look at Bush who hasn't even come close to anything like that not to mention the fact that we are free to dissent. I would like to see you comparing Hitler to Stalin in Nazi Germany during WWII. You would be dead by the end of the week and maybe your whole family too.

For all of these vague comparisons to Hitler, Bush's actions are not anywhere close to the same level, though they are fascist in many respects. The fact of the matter is that you discredit any argument you are trying to make by throwing "Nazi" or "Hitler" into it. There are dozens of tin pot dictators that come a lot closer to Bush's level. You minimize the horrid action's of history's most evil man by comparing a tin pot authoritarian like Bush to them.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

58. "In my mind...

...whenever anyone brings out the Hitler comparison, I immediately think death camps and total war that killed a combined nearly 60 million people in Europe. Then I look at Bush who hasn't even come close to anything like that not to mention the fact that we are free to dissent."

The comparisons are being made by people who sincerely believe (and I think with good reason) that we're headed in the direction of Nazi Germany. It is an attempt to wake the masses up and perhaps head this off. You do understand this, right? Granted, the BushCo regime has not yet achieved the level of atrocities and crimes against humanity that Hitler did. Is it your position that we wait until the PNAC driven BushCo agenda achieves a death tolls reaching into the millions before we begin making comparisons? When is the appropriate time to make the comparisons?

[Zynx]

63. I am sick of the argument of the comparable time lines.

I've debunked that enough elsewhere I won't go through the exercise again. Secondly, you don't "wake up" anyone with these comparisons. They are so out in left-field(I'm using that as an expression not as a comment on political ideology) that people dismiss your ENTIRE ARGUMENT and not just the comparison. You lose people like me who study history with a passion and know enough about historical comparisons to know that Bush is at worst a tin-pot authoritarian and more likely just another one in the long catalog of murderous US presidents. If this was 1938 Germany you would be arrested and shot for comparing Hitler to Stalin. Just think about that for a moment.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

101. "I've debunked that...

...that enough elsewhere I won't go through the exercise again."

I presume your referring to debunking of comparisons/analogies between Bush and Hitler, and/or between present day America and the early beginnings of Nazi Germany. If this is the case, please feel free to share the links to these posts.

[reprehensor]

72. I agree with you.

The R's know damn well Bush will be impeached if the D's get a majority.

They will pull out all the stops for this one, just watch.

If you are a Democrat, and you haven't read What Went Wrong in Ohio, you are not ready for the mid-terms.

Frame the issues all you want, stump all you want, register every f*n adult you want to.

This does not address the problem.

[frankly_fedup2]

41. A debate . . .

:popcorn:

[leftchick]

106. heh!

:applause:

[rockymountaindem]

140. People cling to it so they feel important

If it were just regular politics, that's boring. But fighting a modern-day Hitler? That makes us all heroes!!!

That's why people cling to Hitler comparisons.

[aikoaiko]

62. I read the article

I'm not really in the habit of defending bush, but I suppose I must defend my comment that bush=hitler is hyperbole.

Here are some of the points that authors addresses about why Hitler succeeded.

Are you afraid to speak out? I'm not. Bush sucks.

Could we (the american people) have done something to prevent him from assuming his scond term? Yes, we didn't do enough.

Why didn't we stop Bush? The democratic party overwhelming supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when Bush went to congress. I know for some, the answer is to pull out immediately, but I think we should still try to provide a more stable government before bailing. Like others, my patience is wearing thin on waiting for a good time to leave.



IMHO, the magnitude of evil doing is just not the same.

I want the guy gone as much as anyone, but Bush = Hitler is hyperbolic propaganda.

[Spinoza]

141. This ridiculous comparison

belittles the reality of the Nuremburg Race Laws, belittles the reality of a totalitarian state eliminating ALL criticism, belittles the reality of the Holocaust, and belittles the suffering of my parents who survived Treblinka and Dachau. The idea that we can publicly criticize this regime on DU as we do, or that people such as Ward Churchill and Noam Chomsky and Michael Moore can continue to openly teach, write books, make speeches, etc without any fear of incarceration or death or torture---and yet somehow this is in any way similar to Nazi Germany is----preposterous. The mass arrests, the outlawing of rival parties, the Anti-Semitic race laws began almost immediately following Hitler's election as Chancellor--even before Hindenburg's death. There is nothing even remotely approaching the reality of Nazi Germany in the 30s, much less the reality of the Holocaust of the 40s, in todays America. As the son of concentration camp survivors I find the comparison deeply offensive and insensitive.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. Plenty of moderates voted for Hitler, too, thinking that Hindenberg

would keep him in check.

By the time they realized differently, they'd lost the right to vote.

Here, moderates have voted for the party of Diebold, which removes their right to vote.

[frankly_fedup2]

43. If he had just gotten accepted into that art school in France . . .

millions of innocent people would have lived their lives and the World could possibly be be a better place. That is until * was selected as POTUS. If only Gore had been given his appropriate place in history. We will never know!

[seemslikeadream]

23. They should be exposed to the history of the bush family

Averell Harriman -- Founding Turd of the BFEE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2933358

live natives from backward jungle regions were exhibited in special cages
The British connection had paid for Walker summer houses in Santa Barbara, California, and in Maine-- "Walker’s Point" at Kennebunkport. Bert Walker had been sent to England for his prep school and college education. By 1919 Bert Walker had strong ties to the Guaranty Trust Company in New York and to the British-American banking house J.P. Morgan and Co. These Wall Street concerns represented all the important owners of American railroads: the Morgan partners and their associates or cousins in the intermarried Rockefeller, Whitney, Harriman and Vanderbilt families. Bert Walker was known as the midwest’s premier deal-arranger, awarding the investment capital of his international-banker contacts to the many railroads, utilities and other midwestern industries of which he and his St. Louis friends were executives or board members. Walker’s operations were always quiet, or mysterious, whether in local or global affairs. He had long been the "power behind the throne" in the St. Louis Democratic Party, along with his crony, former Missouri Governor David R. Francis. Walker and Francis together had sufficient influence to select the party’s candidates.

See Letter of G.H. Walker to D.R. Francis, March 20, 1905, in the Francis collection of the Missouri Historical Society, St. Louis, Missouri, on the organization of the Republicans and Democrats to run the election of the mayor, a Democrat acceptable to the socially prominent. The next day Walker became the treasurer and Francis the president of this "Committee of 1000." See also George H. Walker obituary, St. Louis Globe-Democrat, June 25, 1953.


Back in 1904, Bert Walker, David Francis, Washington University President Robert Brookings and their banker/broker circle had organized a world’s fair in St. Louis, the Louisiana Purchase Exposition. In line with the old Southern Confederacy family backgrounds of many of these sponsors, the fair featured a "Human Zoo" : live natives from backward jungle regions were exhibited in special cages under the supervision of anthropologist William J. McGee. So Averell Harriman was a natural patron for Bert Walker. Bert shared Averell’s passion for horse breeding and horse racing, and easily accommodated the Harriman family’s related social philosophy. They believed that the horses and racing stables they owned showed the way toward a sharp upgrading of the human stock--just select and mate thoroughbreds, and spurn or eliminate inferior animals. The First World War had brought the little St. Louis oligarchy into the Confederate-slaveowner-oriented administration of President Woodrow Wilson and his advisors, Col. Edward House and Bernard Baruch. Walker’s friend Robert Brookings got into Bernard Baruch’s War Industries Board as director of national Price Fixing (sic). David R. Francis became U.S. ambassador to Russia in 1916. As the Bolshevik Revolution broke out, we find Bert Walker busy appointing people to Francis’s staff in Petrograd.

Letter of Perry Francis to his father, Ambassador David R. Francis, Oct. 15, 1917, Francis collection of the Missouri Historical Society. "... Joe Miller left for San Francisco last Tuesday night, where he will receive orders to continue to Petrograd. I was told by Mildred Kotany that Bert Walker got him his appointment through Breck Long. I didn’t know Joe was after it, or could have helped him myself. He will be good company for you when he gets there...."


Walker at length agreed to move to New York. But he kept his father’s summer house in Kennebunkport, Maine. Bert Walker formally organized the W.A. Harriman & Co. private bank in November 1919. Walker became the bank’s president and chief executive; Averell Harriman was chairman and controlling co-owner with his brother Roland ( "Bunny" ), Prescott Bush’s close friend from Yale; and Percy Rockefeller was a director and a founding financial sponsor. In the autumn of 1919, Prescott Bush made the acquaintance of Bert Walker’s daughter Dorothy. They were engaged the following year, and were married in August, 1921.

Prescott Bush, Columbia University, op. cit., p. 7.

From
George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography --- by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton Chaitkin


STUBBORN PERSISTENCE OF AFRICAN AMERICANS IN REPRODUCING, AMALGAMATING

The most important American political event in those preparations for Hitler was the infamous `` Third International Congress on Eugenics, '' held at New York's American Museum of Natural History August 21-23, 1932, supervised by the International Federation of Eugenics Societies.@s9 This meeting took up the stubborn persistence of African-Americans and other allegedly `` inferior '' and `` socially inadequate '' groups in reproducing, expanding their numbers, and amalgamating with others. It was recommended that these `` dangers '' to the `` better '' ethnic groups and to the `` well-born, '' could be dealt with by sterilization or `` cutting off the bad stock '' of the `` unfit. ''

Italy's fascist government sent an official representative. Averell Harriman's sister Mary, director of `` Entertainment '' for the Congress, lived down in Virginia fox-hunting country; her state supplied the speaker on `` racial purity, '' W.A. Plecker, Virginia commissioner of vital statistics. Plecker reportedly held the delegates spellbound with his account of the struggle to stop race-mixing and inter-racial sex in Virginia.

The Congress proceedings were dedicated to Averell Harriman's mother; she had paid for the founding of the race-science movement in America back in 1910, building the Eugenics Record Office as a branch of the Galton National Laboratory in London. She and other Harrimans were usually escorted to the horse races by old George Herbert Walker--they shared with the Bushes and the Farishes a fascination with `` breeding thoroughbreds '' among horses and humans.@s1@s0

Averell Harriman personally arranged with the Walker/Bush Hamburg-Amerika Line to transport Nazi ideologues from Germany to New York for this meeting.@s1@s1 The most famous among those transported was Dr. Ernst Ru@audin, psychiatrist at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genealogy and Demography in Berlin, where the Rockefeller family paid for Dr. Ru@audin to occupy an entire floor with his eugenics `` research. '' Dr. Ru@audin had addressed the International Federation's 1928 Munich meeting, speaking on `` Mental Aberration and Race Hygiene, '' while others (Germans and Americans) spoke on race-mixing and sterilization of the unfit. Ru@audin had also led the German delegation to the 1930 Mental Hygiene Congress in Washington, D.C.
http://www.tarpley.net/bush3.htm

[leeroysphitz]

28. Some parallels were obvious from the get go even to

non-alarmist types. 9-11 vs. Reichstag fire. I'm not arguing LIHOP or MIHOP, I'd need to see some pretty convincing evidence to subscribe to such theories BUT there is no arguing that the END RESULTS of both incidents were the same. A massive consolidation of disproportionate power with the executive branch enjoying unchecked authority.

You didn't have to be a conspiracy theorist to recognize it even as it was happening. IMO

[aikoaiko]

69. yes, of course, but its hard to believe that even a democratic pres

would not have proposed and gotten more stringent security measures in place that may or may not be unconstitutional after 9/11. Of course, we would have done a better job but everyone was scared and determined after 9/11.

We, as much as anyone, gave him those extended powers by voiting for the Patriot Act. Look at the state of poor Russ's censure. The most noble thing to come out of congress in a long while and we can't muster the votes.

[leeroysphitz]

82. I agree to a point.

I think your are right about the security but would a president Gore have gone off half cocked and illegally invaded Iraq? Would he be spying on U.S. citizens on U.S. soil without easily obtained FISA warrants? Would he have payed off reporters to spread propaganda? Would he have rewarded corporate cronies so richly and shamelessly? We can't say for sure but I doubt it.

[aikoaiko]

85. I doubt that any democratic president would been nearly as corrupt.

nt

[Raksha]

77. There seem to be a number of self-proclaimed "moderates"

or "swing voters" on this thread who claim they are "thinking about" voting Democratic, but then again they might not because they are just SOOO put off by the Bush/Hitler comparison. I know someone on another forum who plays that "moderate" game on a regular basis. He tries to make it the fault of "the libs" that he voted Republican yet again, because our rhetoric is just so extreme and offensive. Funny how he never reacts that way to the RW kool-aid drinkers who are ten times as offensive and chronic liars on top of that.

In other words, I'm not buying it. If you're voting Democratic next time, you already know why and nothing we say is going to change that. Vote Republican again and you are just cutting off your nose to spite your face. In any case, whining that "the libs made me do it" fools exactly nobody.

[aikoaiko]

109. Are you really denying that there are moderate swing voters?

We won with Clinton because we commanded the rhetoric of the political just-left-of-center while the republicans were still doing Reaganism.

Political rhetoric does have an impact -- but perhaps not on people like you.

If you're right then we shouldn't donate money for democratic campaigns or even participate in this forum since both acts are about creating political rhetoric to get democrats reelected. Is that your stance or did you not really think your last post out.

[CornField]

13. The quote...

I didn't really see the parellels at first. Then, shortly after the domestic spying information broke in the NYT, I had opportunity to listen to a Bush speech about it. Have you ever had one of those moments of deja vu which left you with shivers of ill-will up your spine?

The whole scene reminded me of a college course section where we studied Hitler's Germany. The body language, the tone of voice and even the words out of his mouth were so closely matched. When the speech was over, I went to the computer and did a few searches based on phrases that Bush used.

Each and everyone of my search brought me to this speech by another so-called world leader:

"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures..."
~Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933, before the German Parliment (Reichstag) as he urged them to pass his "Enabling Act"

[Dr. Jones]

14. Whoa...

:scared:

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

17. There are unmistakable parallels between...

...the Nazi propaganda and what BushCo spews today. Here's the last annual Goebbels speech honoring Hitler on his birthday. I made what I thought were a few relevant substitutions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=173328&mesg_id=173328

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. I will withhold judgment until the elections

and see whether they are going to let go of power.

I do agree there are some parallels, but I wonder whether those are common to all autocratic leaders? The big question is, can he wiggle out of the orderly transfer of power and into a true dictatorship?

And if he does, he does not have the adoration of the masses like Hitler did. Germany had just lost a vicious war and was humiliated and in rubble. 9/11 gave Bush a bump and probably the election, but his true supporters are few and far between now.

We shall see.

[novalib]

19. "It Can't Happen Here"

"It Can't Happen Here" was the title of a book I read some time ago.

It was a very chilling tale of a President who enacts something like the "Enabling Act" -- abolishing Freedom of Speech, Freedom to Assemble, etc.

The USA becomes a very brutal dictatorship.

It seals its borders.

I am very, very afraid.

[Cleita]

21. Awesome post.

For those of us who have seen this coming since the Patriot Act was passed, it too bad everyone else won't wake up to the fact until it's too late.

"Mein Kampf" lays all of Karl Roves strategy out.

[vogonity]

26. Thanks for bringing this up

I recently read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and I must admit that certain parts freaked me out.

I am thinking of AH's statements to the effect of 'All Germany wants is peace' and a bunch of contrived 'attacks on Germans' in places like Upper Silesia in Poland which then required 'invasions to secure the peace in Europe.' As a matter of fact, I think most of what AH did in justifying his attacks was based on lies. Comparing the size (audacity?) of AH's lies to *Bushco might be an interesting exercise.

One major difference between * and AH is that AH was an excellent public speaker. * may have a certain amount of street level craftiness, but IMHO he lacks the ability to communicate with the masses at anywhere NEAR the level that AH did.

This is a loaded topic which tends (or is it always?) to devolve into flamage. For this reason I didn't post it myself.

[Zorra]

29. Comparisons between the Bu*h and Hitler regimes are justifiable

to the extent that the progression of state actions by Bu*h and the republican party indicate a clear, deliberate attempt to establish an imperialistic, militarily aggressive, domesticly repressive one-party totalitarian state in the US.

The developing pattern of events over the past six years indicates a pre-conceived plan of state action that has the goal of achieving a form of tyrannical despotism, and the pattern is demonstrably similar in some ways to the deliberate establishment of totalitarianism in Germany by Hitler and the Nazi party in the 1930's.

Hopefully, we can prevent the Bu*h/republican regime from getting as far as Hitler and the Nazis did toward achieving their goals - but we haven't done well at stopping them so far.

[Cleita]

33. No we haven't done well at stopping them so far.

The only reason we are still allowed to discuss it in places like this is that our nation is much larger than Germany and therefore not as easy to get a totalitarian stranglehold on. It doesn't mean it can't be done. Soviet Russia was able to and in time if these people aren't indicted for being criminals, the Karl Roves of the party will start studying how Stalin did it and then we will be silenced one way or the other.

[Nederland]

31. Bush != Hitler

Comparing Bush to Hitler is an insult to the 6+ million Jews who died in the Holocaust. Tell me, if Bush is just like Hitler, where are the plans for the ovens?

Stop this crap, it just makes Democrats look like total loons.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

34. To point out the very obvious and valid...

...parallels between Bush and Hitler, and present day America and early Nazi Germany is, on the contrary, a very meaningful and poignant way of honoring the memory of the 6+ million Jews who died in the Holocaust.

You suffer the symptoms of Classic Denial. Hopefully it's a phase you'll find a way to work your way through.

[Zynx]

53. You have very twisted arguments.

How does comparing the actions of a tin-pot tyrant like Bush who has many more comparisons to a guy like Salazar to the most evil man in history, Hitler, honor the deaths of 50-60 million people in Europe during WWII? Bush's actions are not even close to the worst that US presidents have done, much less the world's most infamous totalitarian tyrant. You minimize the evil that has been done by others by comparing this tin-pot thug, of which there have been hundreds in the last century, to Hitler. You are doing a disservice to history and clearly you know little of it.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

116. "You minimize the evil...

...that has been done by others by comparing this tin-pot thug, of which there have been hundreds in the last century, to Hitler."

I don't agree. What these comparisons do is call attention to the very real potentiality for a repeat by BushCo or his Neocon successors, of something as bad or worse than Hitler---a potentiality you seem determined to minimize.

[Cleita]

36. Democrats are not loons.

Stop saying that.

[Zynx]

51. He's saying we look like loons by comparing Bush to Hitler.

That's a big difference.

[Cleita]

59. Not really.

This is an old propaganda trick. Say that some demography look like xxxxx. Those who want to believe that will say yes, they are xxxxx. However, up until that time no one was thinking that. All they were thinking up to that time is that they really shouldn't say that about our glorious leader.

Actually, Hitler's manifesto, "Mein Kampf" has all his methods of propagandizing his ideas and turning them into facts. He also credits the Americans for teaching him how propaganda should be done.

[Zynx]

65. My goodness some people really have jumped off the deep end.

I wish I could transport you back to 1938 Germany just so you could see.

[rinsd]

67. "This is an old propaganda trick"

Yes it is.

Accuse your enemy of the worst motivations possible demonizing them at every turn.

Oh wait we were talking about what Bush is doing. Well the above still stands.

[Nederland]

70. Agreed

Democrats are not loons. People that say Bush is just like Hitler are loons.

[Zynx]

I'm not sure I'd call them loons, but historically ignorant may be

a better term for it.

[Cleita]

83. I don't believe Bush is like Hitler.

I believe he is like President Von Hindenburg, who was slipping into senility and ripe for the manipulation by Hitler and his cronies to take over the government. First he managed to get Von Hindenburg to appoint him as chancellor, since he couldn't get elected to the seat, then he got Von Hindenburg to sign away the rights of the German people under the guise of protecting them from those who engineered the Reichstag fire. When Von Hindenburg died, he appointed himself to the post of President and chancellor turning them into one office.

Bush, a mental lightweight, is the patsy of the fascist RW of our Republican government. When he loses his usefulness you will see our real dictator come into the spotlight.

Oh, and you just did call me a loon didn't you because I can see all the parallels between this regime and that regime. The Nazi party didn't die, it just came to America and is on the rise again.

[novalib]

79. What You Said....

It's bad enough that I have to hear from relatives and the media the outrageous accusation that Democrats are "loons".

I sure as hell don't need to come to a liberal board to READ such an outrageous statement!

[Lerkfish]

38. um I dunno, heard of Gitmo and Abu Ghraib? He's just getting started

Once he had Gonzales and company write that torture wasn't really torture, he took a giant step towards Auschwitz, and continues in that direction.

You can live in denial about it, but we ARE experiencing concentration camps, complete with freepers saying Gitmo is a vacation spot, just like they said about Beisbaden (sp?).

[Zynx]

56. Many US presidents have done far worse.

Just naming Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon is enough to stop these Bush-Hitler comparisons. I look at what Bush has done compared to those two and the millions of lives that were ended by their actions and I realize that not only is Bush not on the level of Hitler or even close to it, but he has a long way to go to top some of our other home-grown baddies.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

111. and a lovely day to you, too.

lets see, you called me a weasel and an outright liar.

simply make your arguments, no need to trash those you disagree with.

one might wonder why you feel the need to do so?

my advice: step away from the keyboard before you make more enemies than you intended.

[Zynx]

49. We minimize Hitler's evil by just focusing on the 6 million Jews.

He killed a grand total of nearly 60 million through WWII in Europe and his other actions. He exterminated another 5 million alone just in the death camps.

[Nederland]

71. Good point (nt)

[petgoat]

50. Bush has only been in power five years, so we should compare

him rightly to Hitler in 1938. That he has not yet progressed to Hitler 1942
does not derail the comparison.

[Zynx]

55. We are free to criticize Bush without being killed.

Let's start there.

Let me tell you a story about a man I worked with in my local OfficeMax when I worked there a couple years ago. His name was Joseph. When he was a small boy, he attended a Catholic church in Germany in the late 1930s where the local priest was critical of the Nazis and their campaign of terror in a homily. Not only was the priest arrested and sent to a concentration camp, but so were Joseph and his family. Joseph spent years in hard labor as a result and many of his friends and family were killed. What he told me about the horror of the Nazis even before WWII and what I have heard second hand from documentaries and elsewhere makes me certain that such comparisons of Bush to Hitler do not have any basis. Even using your argument about what he had done to 1938, it doesn't even compare. If it did, every single Democrat who has ever spoken against Bush would be in prison or dead.

[petgoat]

61. Are you sure? Some critics wind up suicided.

http://sanderhicks.com/hatfieldhome.html


And why do the Dems seem to be afraid to point out that the voting machines are crooked,
or that the 9/11 Commission Report is full of holes?

Why did Kerry let Bush paint himself as strong on terrorism when Bush's non-action was
essential to the success of the 9/11 attacks?

WE are free to criticize Bush because we don't matter.

Social engineering and control have progressed a lot since 1938.

[Zynx]

68. You pretend there is no criticsm of Bush out there.

That is ridiculous. If all there was was a continued drone of pro-Bush drivel and no criticism or negative coverage of his policies Bush wouldn't have a 36% approval rating. Let me tell you this much: in Nazi Germany in 1938 you never heard a peep of criticism against Hitler. Not from anywhere. If there was a peep from some local source, they were killed. If you took a poll in Nazi Germany in 1938 you would find that there was truly overwhelming popular support for the Nazis. The same cannot be said in this country.

[petgoat]

118. So was you there, Johnny? Or are you making up your facts?

Or are you relying on the testimony of someone who was a child at the time, and thus
not likely to know what adults said in private in a time when children were presumably
encouraged in schools to denounce their disloyal parents.

Pressures for social conformity are subtle. You seem to have an exaggerated view of
a film noir totalitarianism where no flowers bloom, no birds sing, and no one laughs.
You then look around and say "See, it's technicolor, and blue skies, it's not like that
at all!"

Like if "May I haff your paepppers pleeese!" and "Vee haff veys of makink you talk!"
just lose the accent they're not fascist any more.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

[Cleita]

74. Yes, and your friend Joseph's tale should be a cautionary one

to everyone. In the act of criminalizing the Priest and his parish for being unpatriotic by criticizing the Nazis as we are criticizing Bush today, they were shipped off to concentration camps.

Hitler was able to do this because on the day following the Reichstadt fire, he prevailed on then President Von Hindenberg to sign the decree "for the Protection of the People and the State" suspending the seven sections of the constitution that guaranteed individual and civil liberties, or their version of our Patriot Act.

[Zynx]

78. I didn't even follow your logic there.

I saw the flow go from point A to point B to Point J.

Until Bush does what several previous presidents have done and passes a sedition act, I am not going to worry about this one bit.

[Cleita]

87. Good for you. I'm not worrying that much either because

people like me are going to work like hell to make sure he doesn't get away with it and that his brother Jeb doesn't become the next President.

[Lerkfish]

115. "what me worry?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

92. The NeoCons have resorted to more sophisticated methods...

...to deal with those that have spoken out. People have lost their jobs (fired), and in this economy that is a terrible thing to happen, particularly when you add the loss of health benefits, life insurance and other company benefits. Those without jobs face the threat of losing their homes, automobiles and other possessions. Those without healthcare programs are doomed to suffer and/or die because they can not afford the surgery they need to have and/or the prescriptions for pre- and post-surgery treatments.

And what about high-profile opponents of the NeoCons? To what have the NeoCons resorted to deal with them? Ever hear of "swift-boating"? How about the use of lies to demonize opponents? What effect has this tactic had on others wanting to speak out? In some cases, opponents to the NeoCon Junta have died as the result of alleged "accidents", or under mysterious circumstances.

The true horrors of the Nazis did not begin in earnest until 1941, seven years after they gained control of the German political apparatus. At that point in time, they formalized the "Final Solution"...the extermination of all Jews in the areas they controlled. The NeoCons have been in power for only a little over five years...they have plenty of time to use the camps in the "detention" system known as REX-84. For all we know, those camps may be in operation now.

Prior to that time, executions and the torture of victims was on a much smaller scale. We have had our own glimpse into that particular Hell by the exposure of the Abu Ghraib torture center. We now know that other torture centers are located in Guantanamo Bay and in Eastern Europe (how ironic, don't you think?). How many people of Middle Eastern descent are still being detained for no discernible reason other than being in the wrong country at the wrong time?

Wealth in the U. S. has been concentrated in the hands of the Top 1% in this country, the Middle Class is being destroyed piece-by-piece, and the poorest class is growing on a daily basis. Sound familiar? It should, because the Nazis used that particular tactic, too.

The U. S. military has now been used to illegally invade and occupy two sovereign Middle Eastern nations. Neither of those countries was represented by one of the nineteen hijackers. Yes, Al Qaeda had training camps in Afghanistan, but why didn't we simply destroy the camps, kill the terrorists, and get the heck out? None of the NeoCon reasons for invading Iraq were true. Three years later, we are still present in both countries, and are threatening a third. Does all of this sound familiar? It should. The Nazis illegally invaded countries, too, and always based on lies.

If the NeoCons use nuclear weapons on Iran, how many millions will die? How many will have to die for people like yourself to admit that the NeoCon Junta is very similar to the Nazi Party, with very similar global ambitions?

Prescott Bush and Herbert Walker made loans to Nazi Germany from 1934 until 1942, money that was used to help build the Auschwitz death camp system. Karl Rove's grandfather was an administrator in the Auschwitz death camp system. How many connections between the NeoCon Junta and Nazi Germany have to be made before the light goes on?

The Patriot Act, and several legislative additions since, has restricted the freedoms of Americans to the point where it's now okay for our Fearless Leader to order the eavesdropping on any or all Americans without any justification. Every single phone call, fax, email, internet activity, and other forms of communication are being scanned daily for whatever key words they deem relevant.

Those that deny history are doomed to repeat it. Those words are rapidly growing in importance with each passing day.

[Nederland]

86. Fair Enough

Let's look at what Hitler had done by 1938:

1923 - Instigated a failed coup and ends up in jail.
1924 - Writes Mein Kampf, a book outlining a plan to commit genocide against the Jews.
1925 - Seizes absolute control of the Nazi Party.
1933 - Passes The Malicious Practices Act, begins the mass arrests of communists and socialists, first concentration camps built.
1933 - Passes the Enabling Act, making Hitler dictator and eliminating other parties.
1933 - Withdraws from the League of Nations and the Geneva Disarmament conference.
1934 - The Night of the Long Knives, Hitler murdered Ernst Rohm and began to eliminate the SA.
1936 - Reoccupation of Rhineland.
1938 - Annexes Austria

So please tell me, when did Bush lead a failed coup against the US government? Where is Bush's Mein Kampf? (Does Bush even read, let alone write?) When did Bush seize absolute control of the Republican party? (and if you think he did, why is McCain still alive?) Where are the laws banning parties other than the Republican party? Why is the US still in the UN? Has the US seen an event comparable to the "The Night of the Long Knives"? Has the US annexed Canada or Mexico?

The comparision, even to a 1938 Hitler, is laughable.

[Lerkfish]

113. ok, is it ok to make historical comparisons between Hannibal and Napoleon?

why are we limited to NOT comparing historical figures? In a comparison, is it necessary that everything jot and tittle be exactly alike?

You speak as if we are dishonoring the victims of holocaust, but I would point that "never forget" IS being true to their memory.

why do you wish to silence the comparison?

what other historical comparisons are outlawed by you? Is it ok to compare Bush to Musolini? How about Alexander the Great? Is it ok to find similarities that put bush in only a good light?

you need to be more specific about the muzzles you want us to wear. That way we can be sure not to offend little old you.

[Nederland]

117. Comparing is fine

Compare Bush to whatever historical figure you like. What I am opposed to is the conclusion that people come to after performing such a comparison. In this case, what I am opposed to is the conclusion that Bush is as worse or worse than Hitler, because such a comparison is not based upon an objective review of the facts. Bush has not written anything comparable to Mein Kampf. Bush has not signed anything like The Malicious Practices Act or the Enabling Act. He has not built extermination camps or called for the elimination of an entire race of people.

Compare all you want, just use the facts. I don't think that is too much to ask for.

[Lerkfish]

123. you apparently do not know what a comparison is.

Maybe you do not understand what a comparison is? here's a little help:

The act of comparing or the process of being compared.
A statement or estimate of similarities and differences.

seeing what is alike, and what is different, is part of making a comparison. The problem is, you think noting the differences erases the similarities. in a comparison, there are both.
You're pointing out how they are different. That's fine. Such as obviously Bush did not paint with watercolor and did not have a little mustache. Those are differences. Good for you.

however, that doesn't mean that pointing out similarities is therefore automatically invalid because there are differences.
I've pointed out how they are similar: secret camps where torture takes place and detainees have no hope of escape or trial.
That's one similarity. Are they on the same scale? not yet, no. Does that mean the similarity evaporates?

Of course not.

I don't appreciate the way you argue, nor the muzzle you wish to place on people. Who appointed you a judge over me? eh?

make your OWN points, and make them well. Dont' try to stifle the points of others and demand they shut up. That makes instant enemies...

[Nederland]

126. Spin it any way you like it

The bottom line is that when you make statements like the OP did most voter's eyes glaze over and they write you off as a wacko.

[Karenina]

127. Which is just an indication of

how badly they've been brainwashed. What's WACKO is refusing to recognize the triangular-headed snake as poisonous, just because its a different color from the ones you've seen before.

[Lerkfish]

128. not a very factual argument. is that the best you can do?

sad, really.

how about addressing the fact that both Bush and Hitler fostered torture in hidden camps? Are those not similar traits?

what is your refutation? That its not evil if it only happens to a few thousand vs. millions? Are not the victims still victims?

[Nederland]

137. There is a huge leap

from saying that Bush and Hitler share "similar" traits to saying that Bush is worse than Hitler. Sure, they share similar traits. So do all politicians. I'm sure Hitler shares many traits with JFK, LBJ, and Abraham Lincoln too. Does that mean that JFK was worse than Hitler? No. The burden of proof is on you friend, and you have quite a ways to go yet.

[Lerkfish]

138. You DO realize I'm not the OP, right?

and I'm not the person who said Bush was worse than hitler...right?

debating with you is like juggling spaghetti.

[Nederland]

139. Yup

You are the guy who said that Bush was "only getting started" and that he took "giant step towards Auschwitz". Those are the statements that I believe are completely lacking in supporting evidence. If you disagree, please provide some evidence that Bush intends to move from his current activities (unlawful imprisonment, torture, etc.) to out and out genocide. Take your time.

[Lerkfish]

143. LOL!

:rofl:


Somehow you think I am going to provide evidence of a future trend or conclusion?
Do you understand the concept of past, future and present?

what-ever dude.

[Nederland]

144. Nice try

What I asked for is evidence of what Bush intends to do in the future. One could easily obtain this information by looking at past speeches or policy papers indicating what his goals and objectives are. For example, by looking at his speeches during the 2000 campaign, it would not be unreasonable to have predicted that Bush would cut taxes, appoint Justices to overturn Roe, try to privatize Social Security, etc. Likewise, one could look at Mein Kampf and realize that Hitler intended to engage in genocide against the Jewish people. So you see, it's actually not so far fetched as you make it seem.

Then again, you have an interest in making it seem far fetch because you know damn well that you haven't any evidence of the kind. Then again, perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there actually is a speech or policy paper out there that demonstrates that Bush is "just getting started" and is rapidly moving toward "Auschwitz". If so, please enlighten us...

[LSK]

73. what would really be in insult is letting it happen again

Because we were deemed too "looney" or it was deemed "insulting" to point out symtoms early enough. Why must we let it come down to camps or mass murder before we can even discuss it??? That would be a true tragedy if we shut our eyes to the POSSIBILITY that it could happen again and all the while it might well be happening again.

To let it happen again is the ultimate insult to those 6 million who died in the holocaust.

[Lerkfish]

114. well said, thank you.

[Henny Penny]

131. Couldn't agree more!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Raksha]

96. I don't find the comparison insulting AT ALL...

and I'm Jewish. Are you?

[Henny Penny]

130. some might say posts like this make

democrats look like total loons!

And of course it is possible that not everyone on this thread is a democrat...

[tavalon]

133. Don't worry

We've got bunker buster nukes that will blow the socks off of those numbers. Then will we be allowed to make the comparison without offending Jews, including my betrothed? Hmmmm. Do we really need to wait until the numbers of dead are equal? I figured out this comparison in 2003. It isn't rocket science, it's just knowing history and understanding that there is nothing new under the sun.

Or won't the millions killed by the bunker buster nuclear weapons being planned for Iran be worth as much as the Jews? I would say they have equal value, being human. I'm funny that way.

[rhett o rick]

35. There are similarities but the NeoCon cabal is more dangerous

They have nuclear bombs. Also, Bush is no Hitler. Hitler was easy to vilify. How can anyone vilify hapless, bumbling, silly Georgie. Now Cheney could be Hitler or Rummy.

[cascadiance]

37. Governments should be afraid of their people...

[NNN0LHI]

40. He damned near had all the Mexicans in the cattle cars for a while

They wouldn't cooperate though.

Don

[Initech]

44. I'm getting ever more optimistic that...

Even though we may be like Nazi Germany, just like when Hitler was removed from power, and Bush will be removed from power as well. When that happens we will be holding our own Nuremberg-style trials. LET THE TRUTH BE KNOWN!!!

[lala_rawraw]

52. I have said this for a few years now... but

People think Hitler and equate that with The Final Solution, when in reality, the Final Solution did not come until much later.

[Zynx]

57. Let's even use 1938.

By then Hitler had already dispossessed many thousands of Jews of property, killed homosexuals, gypsies, and the mentally ill by the tens if not hundreds of thousands and had suspended all political rights. As I mentioned in an earlier response, I know someone who was not even Jewish who had his whole family and fellow congregation sent to death camps before WWII.

[petgoat]

54. Your government

Your government, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights.

Your government is openly torturing people, and justifying it.

Your government puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in the dead of night.

Your government is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.

Your government suppresses the science that doesn't fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price.

Your government is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, the right to birth control and abortion.

Your government enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.

People look at all this and think of Hitler — and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come. We must act now; the future is in the balance.

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

[bridgit]

64. Bush: "You Have To Keep Repeating Things To Catapult The Propaganda"...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2005/260505newbushism.htm

[LSK]

66. the only difference is that Bush does not have the majority anymore

Hitlers approval ratings in the mid 30s were sky high. The entire country drank the kool-aid except for Jews and minorities (even some of them were clueless).

Bush's approval rating is in the 30s and dropping like a rock. I seriously doubt it will rise much no matter what happens. Too many people in the US have been awakened.

I do see the similarities in Bush's methods and actions thou.

[Raksha]

84. Yes, his approval rating is sinking like a rock.

I'm glad you pointed that out, because it's one of the few things that makes me even slightly optimistic these days.

[dchill]

75. Whenever I hear a GWB speech...

"the lacerates run down my cheeks."

http://www.slate.com/id/2106773/

:sigh:

[bdamomma]

76. We must take back

our country now. These are criminals who run this country. I just hope those who see this unfolding right before our eyes, that this regime is going through with their sick PNAC plan. We are the only ones to stop this. Our children deserve much better than this.

[kineneb]

80. hindsight is the difference

I see lots of similarities between the actions of BushCo and the Nazis. But some posters here are focusing on looking backwards into the history rather than forwards, a problem often encountered in the history field.

Say we are in Germany in 1933: do we know totally about Hitler's intentions or the outcome thereof? No. Only by hindsight do we see the horrors that occured.

So here we are in 2006. Do we know the outcome of the BushCo/NeoCon regime? No. But by looking at past history, we can try to assemble reasonble sets of possible outcomes. This is what the real study of history teaches- the possible trajectories of societies.

Unfortunately, the US schools, both public and private, do not teach history, nor the critical thinking it takes to do projections. Other societies teach history and thus have different views of their and our futures. Gore Vidal was correct to call us "The United States of Amnesia."

That amnesia is going to come back and bite us on the ass. After all, empires come and empires go. We will not be the first nor last to fall.

[rinsd]

89. That's one of Marx's interpretation of history

"This is what the real study of history teaches- the possible trajectories of societies. "

History is about understanding how we got to the present, not about predicting the future.

"Unfortunately, the US schools, both public and private, do not teach history, nor the critical thinking it takes to do projections."

History is taught just not to the depth I would like. Think about it in high school you get one year to do World History and 2 years to do US history. There is just far too much there to cover simply in high school beyond the basics.

[kineneb]

93. learning from history

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
-George Santayana

...in new and creative ways...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)

[rinsd]

97. There is a difference between learning from history and making projections

about history.

[kineneb]

100. not really

Without learning about the past, we cannot make decisions about the future. It all comes under the "what if" projections often used in alternate history fiction. What if...we do "X" what will then happen vs. if we do "Y"- based on observations from other previous tries. It is also the basis of expirmental science. Tne military does this all the time in their on-paper war games.

[rinsd]

108. Response

"It all comes under the "what if" projections often used in alternate history fiction."

A couple of points

a) This type of "projection" is fiction.

b) The fictions are still doing said projection using the timeline to date not forecasting the future based on events at this time. They also make huge leaps of assumption. My fav novel series has the assasination of Hitler via bomb succeeding, Himmler taking over, then Rommell joining up with Patton to fight off the Russians culminating in the nuking of the Red Army.

"What if...we do "X" what will then happen vs. if we do "Y"- based on observations from other previous tries. It is also the basis of expirmental science"

The difference is science has observable, repeatable results. Historical projectionists have a nasty habit of cramming facts to match their projections some of which goes back to Marx and his theory of inevitablity.

"Tne military does this all the time in their on-paper war games"

The military does so to prepare for all possible scenarios, not to predict which one will come to fruition. The military that does such predictions usually loses (see France and the Maginot line and countless examples of generals fighting the last war).

[Nederland]

98. Not true

Say we are in Germany in 1933: do we know totally about Hitler's intentions or the outcome thereof? No.

By 1933 Hilter had tried to overthrow the government in a failed coup and written Mein Kampf. Yes, by 1933 the world had plenty of evidence of what life under Hitler would be like.

[kineneb]

104. But did everyone believe what Hitler said or wrote?

Or were they in denial: "Oh, he/they would never do that"? Just as today the media and public-in-general ignores the outline of actions found in the PNAC writings. So there is a certain amount of the Monday Morning Quarterback syndrome here.

Given what he wrote, yes, one could have forseen what the Nazis would do. But did people and governments actually heed such warnings? I would say a few got it and the rest either ignored the warnings or were in denial.

[rinsd]

81. JFK=Hilter

After all, we had persecution of communists and minorities were 2nd class citizens.

We had propaganda asserting our moral superiority.

We had flag waving nationalism out the ying yang.

We even attempted the invasion of a sovreign and non threatening nation ignoring international law.

:sarcasm:

[novalib]

88. Do You Really See....

no difference between JFK and Bush?

[rinsd]

90. That wasn't my point....

My point was picking up Zynx's dealing with comparisons amongst authoritarians.

My comparison of JFK to Hitler was laughable as would a comparison of JFK to Bush be.

But nonetheless using the criteria of the Bush=Hitler crowd I am able to do so.

[Karenina]

112. I really lose all hope for Americans

seeing this level of entrenched WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

[rinsd]

121. Ohhh to be amongst those in the know

Do you get a special decoder ring too?

[Karenina]

125. Don't need any hi-tech nonsense.

Learning another language the old-fashioned way sufficed.

Walking through town I'm careful not to step on the bronze plaques embedded in the sidewalks in front of the homes from which citizens were seized and deported to be brutally murdered. Occasionally one sees some of that old rolling stock rotting out in the countryside.

There are many in my neighborhood whose stories, if not drawn out and listened to NOW, will never be heard. I'm all ears. Some tell of being hidden from the Nazis, given new identities as children, others suffer for not having understood, feeling helpless and frightened or being complicit... My elderly neighbors are my "experts." When THEY, who have been staunchly pro-American for decades, make "the comparison" as has been happening more and more in the last 5 years, IT'S TIME TO SHUT UP AND PAY ATTENTION.

Dearest Rinsd, "NEVER AGAIN," to me, means just that. Not just for Jews, but for EVERY SENTIENT BEING on this planet. WE cannot allow our multi-generational PTSD to blind us to the signals and signposts that will aid us in recognizing when it's happening again. And the horrors of the Nazi atrocities ARE, in fact, HAPPENING AGAIN.

[Der Blaue Engel]

94. I've had many bad feelings about this administration since 2000

and each time I've shared these feelings with friends, they've dismissed my fears. "It's not that bad. It's not going to get that bad." And then it got that bad. So I continue to have increasingly bad feelings about what's next to come. I would dearly love to be wrong. But I haven't been yet. :(

[Cleita]

102. Tell your friends that the average good German didn't

see everything that was going on. Most of the atrocities happened in the camps and in occupied countries. The average German was actually experiencing a sort of economic recovery and good times because of the wartime economy.

Hitler also energized the German people with his rallies and speeches making them swell with patriotic fervor. If their Jewish and homosexual neighbors were disappearing, well they broke the law and deserved it so they turned a blind eye.

Those who questioned what was going on often found themselves disappeared in the middle of the night so they weren't around to influence the thinking for very long.

[JeffR]

105. ..

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

119. Great graphic! nt.

[lonestarnot]

120. Even though I nominated, I couldn't get past this.

"Americans support Bush - by a generous majority" What is this about? Is it old news? A bushitler is a bushitler is a bushitler.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

122. That was the sentence...

...that reached out and slapped me from the original post too. It should've been edited, as it is a misstatement of fact.

[Time for change]

132. I think the parallel is very strong

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2069007

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

136. Hitler was motivated by hatred - Bush is motivated by greed

Otherwise I'm not sure I can tell the difference between them