What the fuck do I care about "spreading democracy?"

[Floogeldy]

In a "democracy" you can elect fucking socialist/communist/muslim/green party representatives.

Here, have some fucking Bush democracy: KABLOOEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A bunch of you are dead and the treasury has been handed over to corporations.

Woop dee fucking doo.

}(

[ingac70]

1. My thoughts exactly......

I was thinking the same thing this morning while listening to my local right wing shill on the drive to work talk about how the left "hates" democracy.

Is it really democracy if its forced? :shrug:

Sheesh! These people kill me!

[mitchum]

2. It's just an empty, meaningless phrase which has always been used...

by the power elite to gull the people into thinking that they actually have a voice.

[Dave Reynolds]

3. The word "democracy" in the context of the Bush administration

is quite similar to the word "communism" as practiced by the Soviet Union.

Neither is correct, but unfortunately those are the definitions that stick.

[mikelewis]

4. There's a difference between Democracy and Fascism...

You don't know Democracy because you don't live in one. You live in a Right leaning Republic, teetering on the edge of Fascism. You should care about spreading Democracy, and we should start spreading some right here.

[me b zola]

32. Bravo, mikelewis!

Until we bask under a thriving democracy as a free people who do not need to fear their government, we should STFU about other nations in regards to how free they are or the nature of their democracy.

[applegrove]

5. Spreading democracy is a new policy for people like Rummy & Cheney.

A breakthrough really. Seems they finally figured out that real democracy - even on the left for a bit - is better than controlling a nations resources through a thug.

Real democracy means a distribution of wealth big enough that people in desperation do not turn to desperate churches and desperate movement - but that they busy themselves moving on in their lives.

Real democracy bring employment. And a chance at a better life.

Don't knock it. It has been the policy of the left for 100 years. Don't let these nuts take the issue from you.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Umm, actually, that's Socialisim, not that there is anything wrong with th

In fact, I think that some form of socialisim is necessary for us to survive on this spaceship but it will take a long time for the greedy to accept B. Fuller.

[applegrove]

9. No - democracy has been a liberal thing. Your politics in the USA

is warped. Liberals all over the world were against military intervention for the sole reason of a lefty winning the first democratic election.

[julianer]

24. It's ecosocialism or barbarism

as Rosa Luxumburg would have said...

[applegrove]

41. Actually all the Western Nations have evolved into mixed market economies.

Even the US. The only difference now with neocons is that the corporations get the regulations that help them instead of the average guy.

[julianer]

44. Yes but capitalism is making the world uninhabitable

or haven't you noticed?

If we carry on, for say another ten years like this there probably won't be a life for our grandchildren.

I realise that some people's ideology is so strong that they cannot look at the plain facts that surround them - half the world starving and migrating and the world's resources disappearing quickly, large parts of the earth likely to become uninhabitable via climate change. This inability to question the status quo is the major crisis of humanity at the moment, IMO.

Now we can just let this carry on - which is barbarism, and likely to get much worse - or we can come to some worldwide arrangement dedicated to saving human life on the planet in some degree of fairness - ecosocialism.

[applegrove]

45. Actually the only way to stop the population explosion is to open

trade - and let countries decide themselves national priorities and if they are poor - if they have to redistribute wealth for a bit with national industries and subsidies. And then - as always - 1.7 children is the norm. When people have enough to start to save. They stop having so many children. That will save the planet faster than anything - the world of trade opened up to poorer nations.

People will do anything to make life better for their kids if they have the choice. European immigrants arrived in the Americas with nothing and at times as indentured. And spend three generations barely eating and doing nothing all day but removing stumps from their farm land. And given the chance to move up from that life - and work at a job that gave you actual cash or coin to rub together - most chose to do that - so their kids could have a better life.

Yes - we are running the planet into the ground. But the growth rate of population is not going to stabilize until everyone in the world has a chance to do what north Americans did.

[TahitiNut]

6. Well, I do care about supporting liberal democratic governments.

I just don't believe it's done by invasion, plunder, and occupation. It's done by supporting education, health care, labor rights, and democratic reforms. It's not done by selling arms and getting a piece of the slave labor action. It's done by supporting the United Nations, not the World Bank.

But we don't support democratic governments. We oppose 'leftists' and arm the military coups. We spread totalitarianism as corporate client states. We've done more to oppress people in third world countries than free them by an order of magnitude.

[ninkasi]

43. Yes, we have...

How many far-right, fascist type dictatorships have we sponsored, all under the guise of preventing the spread of communism, or socialism? Too many, in my opinion, and too many lives have been ruined by our interference. We have, indeed, spread terrorism throughout Third World countries for too many years. How many remember what happened to Patrice Lamumba?

[SeattleVet]

8. Unfortunately, they're spreading democracy around so much

that it appears to be causing massive shortages here at home.

[unhappycamper]

10. Hey SeattleVet!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[FiveGoodMen]

26. Well put!

[Stockholm]

11. short, succinct and to the point

Kick

[Heidi]

12. When does it start spreading to the American people? (nt)

Edited to add: Nominated.

[BlueManDude]

13. They moved the goalposts - now it's all about "Democracy" and Baby Noor

and getting the electric grid up and running and cleaning the water supply and women's rights and the schools and elections and a constitution and...

[zippy890]

14. yeah, what you said

Kablooey to the tune of 2 trillion dollars

[robcon]

15. I care very deeply about spreading democracy....

South Africa, Chile, Taiwan, South Korea, Lebanon, Afghanistan.

The result of democracy is peace.

[NNN0LHI]

17. The result of democracy is peace? WTF? Nazi Germany was a democracy

The USA is a democracy too. How many wars have we been involved in? The result of democracy is peace is a joke.

Don

[enigma000]

21. the third reich was not a democracy n/t

[NNN0LHI]

29. I said Nazi Germany was a democracy. Is that wrong?

http://www.thecorner.org/hists/total/n-german.htm

Hitler's Rise to Power

Faced with economic hardship, the Germans lost any faith they might have in the democratic Republic. The middle classes and the working classes were the most discontented groups because they had been ruined by two economic collapses within six years. It was not surprising that they turned to the two extreme parties for desperate remedies: the Nazis and the Communists. In the general election of September 1930, the Nazis won 6.5 million votes, took 107 seats in the Reichstag and became the second largest party in the country. The Communists obtained 4.5 million votes and 77 seats. Although the Social Democrats remained the largest party, it had lost much popularity and support.

Since the Republican coalition (the Social Democrats, Catholic Centrists, Democrats) could not command a majority in the Reichstag. Dr. Bruning (a member of the Catholic Centre Party), the Chancellor from 1930 to 1932, could only rule by issuing emergency decrees. His unconstitutional and undemocratic rule made his government increasingly unpopular. The unpopularity of the government was shown in the presidential election of April 1932. The Republican coalition put forward Hindenburg. He was re-elected with nineteen million votes. But Hitler, who also entered himself for election, won thirteen and a half million votes. So it may not be far from truth by saying that at least 40% of the German people were more willing to support Hitler than the Republican government.

Hindenburg blamed the unpopularity of the government on Dr. Bruning. In June 1932, Von Papen was appointed to be the new

Chancellor. In the next six months, Papen tried to get a Reichstag majority for the government by holding two elections. The first took place in July. In that election, he failed to get any important support. Instead the votes for the Nazis more than doubled. The Nazis won 230 Reichstag seats and became the largest single party in the Reichstag. Papen was disappointed by the results of the election. In November, he held a new election. In this election, the Communists made tremendous gains and won 100 seats in the Reichstag. The Nazis also obtained 196 seats and 33% of the total number of votes. But in comparison with the results in the July election, the Nazis had lost about two million votes and 34 seats in the Reichstag, while the Communists had gained 11 seats. Many influential businessmen and landlords became alarmed at the spectre of a Bolshevik Revolution in Germany. The conservative Nationalists decided that their cause could be served by supporting Hitler.

Von Papen, who had just joined the Nationalist Party, wanted to utilize the strength of the Nazis to rid Germany of the Communist threat. He made a political bargain with Hitler. According to the bargain, Hitler would be made Chancellor and Von Papen be made Vice-Chancellor. Hindenburg, despite his contempt for Hitler, readily agreed to the bargain because the Nazis appeared to be the only well-supported right-wing party which could protect Germany from the onslaught of the Communist Revolution. On January 28, 1933, Hindenburg invited Hitler to be the Chancellor.

[enigma000]

30. democracy died with the fall of the Weimar Republic

On July 14, 1933 the government decreed a law eliminating political parties other than the Nazi Party. By this, Hitler had fulfilled what he had promised in earlier campaign speeches: "I set for myself one aim ... to sweep these thirty parties out of Germany!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act

However it came into being, Nazi Germany was no more a democracy than the original 13 American colonies, post-American Revolution, were monarchies.

[NNN0LHI]

31. Hitlers democratically elected Nazi government did all that

>>>The passage of the Enabling Act reduced the Reichstag to a mere stage for Hitler's speeches. The opposition parties were suppressed or banned, and eventually even the parties making up Hitler's coalition yielded to government pressure and dissolved themselves. On July 14, 1933 the government decreed a law eliminating political parties other than the Nazi Party. By this, Hitler had fulfilled what he had promised in earlier campaign speeches: "I set for myself one aim ... to sweep these thirty parties out of Germany!"<<<

He didn't start out as a dictator. He ended up that way. Its too late to try and rewrite history now.

Don

[enigma000]

34. Point taken - he subverted a democratic republic

The voters gave his National Socialists a sizable share of seats in parliament and, in a short time, subverted the system and installed a dictatorship. It gave the regime the thin respectability of being democratically installed. Mind you, I suspect if the reich had lasted a 1000 years, Germans would still be waiting for a chance to vote in elections again.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. Hey, let's start with Florida & Ohio!

[Stockholm]

20. Don´t forget

Indonesia, Greece, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Haiti, Turkey, the Philippines, Guatemala, El Salvador, and, of course, Chile.

[robbedvoter]

16. Ceausescu's Romania had "Democratic" in its very title - later changed

to "Socialist"
They have as much respect for the concept as they do for the "g-d piece of paper" that we call constitution.


"What does it matter to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" --Mahatma Gandhi

[BlueEyedSon]

18. They are spreading FREEDOM, not DEMOCRACY

and their definition of "freedom" includes but is not limited to:

freedom from taxes (implying freedom from social services, public education, etc)
freedom from rule of law (sorry if your civil rights were guaranteed by law)
freedom from any constraints on corporate capitalism
freedom from environmental regulations

[bluestateguy]

40. Swish!!

There you have it. Their definition of "freedom" is basically the definition as determined by the Heritage Foundation or the American Enterprise Institute. Freedom for corporate capitalists to exploit the masses of poor people and slowly erode their quality of life. Their conception of freedom does not include religious freedom, sexual freedom, the right to a good job, economic security, health care or a clean environment.

Saddam was a dictatorial bastard who will burn in hell, but Iraq is becoming a dictatorship under new management now.

[enigma000]

22. So much for "We Are the World" n/t

[raccoon]

23. When the US power elite use the phrase "spreading democracy"

it's a euphemism for interfering in the internal affairs of another country, sending military advisers and/or troops, overthrowing a leader who won't dance to their tune, or invading the country, for the purpose of protecting US corporate interests.

[julianer]

25. Haiti being an excellent

and too often overlooked example.

[Lisa]

27. they act as if you can buy a jar of it off the shelf, like peanut butter

Somehow it rings hollow when all the time, they are picking away at the very things which maintain democracy -- fair elections, a free press, privacy safeguards, a fair justice system ... and widespread access to education, decent wages for workers and the middle class ...

[Ksec]

28. and the Iraqis are well on their way to a theocracy

The idiots on the reicht have done us all proud. Killed hundreds of thousands , bankrupted our bank , and installed another Iran .

Do these people really believe this is a "good" thing or are they just frontin' for the guy they stupidly elected?

[Bridget Burke]

33. Most people actually do like Democracy....

With some variations for local cultures. The best way to foster worldwide Democracy is by example.

Unfortunately, we are now a prime example of what happens when the will of the people has been subverted.

[Jemmons]

35. I live in a real democracy

I live in a real democracy - Denmark - and people here are not only healthy, rich and happy, but eager to export democracy. Not a lot of buyers though.

[zippy890]

36. glad democracy is working somewhere

cause its not working here

welcome to DU:hi:

[Jemmons]

37. Thank you.

It works here and seems very stable. I used to think that democracy was stable in the sense that it would produce voters that would secure it, but recently Niall Ferguson pointed out that a democracy is something that comes in Waves: "...it is undoubtedly true that the world has never been more democratic than it was in 1998, the trajectory of democratization has not been smoothly up-wards. There have in fact been three peaks of global democratization: in 1922, 1946 and 1994...The crucial point, of course, is that both the previous waves receded. " From "The Cash Nexus - Money and Power in the Modern World 1700 - 2000"

[zippy890]

38. interesting , I think our wave of democracy is drowning us

I've almost come to believe that Americans have proven they are not entitled to vote. They seem to waste it on incompetants.

"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

H.L. Menken

It appears to have happened here
;-)

[bluestateguy]

39. I have a standing offer of $1000

To the person who can find me the section of the US Constitution that obligates the US to "spread" our system of government around the world. If other countries want democracy, great. I say good for them, and welcome. But the people of those countries must make the sacrifices necessary to win a democracy and to keep it. It's not the place of a foreign military power to impose it at gunpoint all over the world (and rather selectively, at that).

We get it. The Libertarians get it, and the Paleoconservatives get it too. Neither Dwight Eisenhower nor Calvin Coolidge would have ever gotten us into this mess.

[TheBaldyMan]

42. is that straight from the fridge? n/t

[Call Me Wesley]

46. Diebold machines would burn out

if they ever had to handle the elections we have.

The 'car party' in Switzerland was a joke, though. A joke getting elected into the Senate. :(

[KyuzoGator]

47. I'm not exactly sure what makes us such an expert on the subject.

It's hard to argue that America 2006 is a hotbed of intelligent political discourse.