"Let their families take care of them" + bootstraps = uncaring

[steve2470]

In some informal debates with conservatives, the "welfare state" and social programs always comes up. The "trump card" is always thrown down. Paraphrased, it's let their families take care of them or They can go get a job and work hard to pay for what they need. Sounds so simple, doesn't it ? However, it's my suspicion that most of these disadvantaged have tried those 1932-style routes and found them wanting.

How does one counter that trump card argument ?

[bryant69]

1. Obviously one can point out that there are lots who don't have families

One can also point out taht most people use welfare as intended - as a help through the bad times. It's not about helping jerks who don't want to work, it's about helping hard working people going through bad times to make their house payments and so on.

It's not a giveaway it's an investment in Americans.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jigarotta]

8. define work, besides the corporate take.

hmmm?

[bryant69]

10. Little point to that i suspect

I am a capitalist, and I favor capitalism. Work is anything you can get people to pay you money to do. If you write poetry and people buy your poetry, than you are working. If you write poetry, and nobody buys your poetry, than you should probably do soething else while working to be a better poet.

I do, though, favor subsidizing the arts (lest anybody think I'm too hard on poets).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Jigarotta]

13. what's the minimum wage for moms and homemakers?

and what's the price of someone absolutely brilliant in arts or science. wot wot, that is a jobless 'bum' because the ca-ching ain't there for her/m to get into the stream of things?

I prefer socialism - have it both ways in some respects. capitalism is Not the be all end all. It be the end of us all - absolute unharnessed greed by a handfull.

[bryant69]

16. Well i do favor a managed capitalism over a laissez faire capitalism

I don't know what version of socialism you are talking about here.

Bryant

[Jigarotta]

18. the kind that

doesn't get bombed if it's in the northern hemisphere.
Canada, etc., OK,
Nicargua, etc., No. bomb the 'commies'!

[Deja Q]

2. Tell THEM the same thing once their own wrists, oops jobs, are slashed.

I dunno who has the secret to a guaranteed life, but I'd love to know what it is.

[cdsilv]

3. ask them - "Who in your family have you taken care of ????"

....or "Is there anyone in your family you would NOT take care of?"

..the drunk, the druggie, the teenage mom, the klepto, the 'unbeliever', the ....

whatever, you get the point I hope...

[steve2470]

5. Yes, absolutely. Great point nt

[AlCzervik]

4. Have you ever read the book "Nickel and dimed"? Every rwer should be

forced to read it and then be tested on it and they might just change their tune.

[cap]

6. it usually means let their women folk take care of the vulnerable

in their families.

[oasis]

7. "It takes a village to raise a child" (eom)

[greekspeak]

9. You cannot win an argument of "uncaring"

They don't care, and they are not hesitant about admitting it. Conservatives are about themselves, not others. That money is THEIRS. THEY worked for it. That is all there is to it. Unless they need a leg up. Then they DESERVE help, because they WORKED so hard for so long. Reasoning with conservatives from emotion is a dead end--the only emotions they have are those directed toward themselves.

[converted_democrat]

11. I come from a family of fundies and conservatives.. This is how I put it

to them.. Not everyone has family, and not everyone has the ability to retain a job.. Do they like their relative safety? Do they like living separate from the mother or father in law? Cause, if we do away with all the social programs, we will live in a much less safe society.. People aren't just going to starve quietly in streets.. Will they be able to make it back and forth from the grocery with their money, their groceries, and their car? Probably not.. You think crime is bad now? Imagine what it would be like with millions of homeless roaming the streets trying to feed themselves and their children.. Do they like the idea of their in laws living with them? If they slash SS, they're going to have to live somewhere.. Do they want the hungry and homeless on their doorsteps? Do they like the idea of sitting up every night with a shotgun waiting to see if their home will be broken into? Is that really what they want? Do they want to live in that kind of society? Shuts them up every time..

[steve2470]

12. great arguments nt

[Journeyman]

14. What of instances where an injured adult was saved from death. . .

by medical technology which the State ordered be made available, with no consultation made with the family, and now the patient is left disabled -- a quadriplegic, say, totally dependent on others for their every need. Should the family be required to support this person, attend to his every need, put their own lives aside to care for an "experiment" the State ordered carried through without consultation with anyone else and without consideration of the victim's stated desires? Because the State played God does that obligate the family to be the State's nursemaid? Or is it even possible to separate the functions -- once signed on as Cosmic Rescuer is the State then duty bound to accept responsibility for its midwifed child?

[porphyrian]

15. The playing field is far from fair.

The advantaged often take their advantage for granted, and assume that everyone starts from a similar beginning. They don't. No one is more aware of this than the disadvantaged, who are time and again blamed for being victims of a racist and classist system (which many still do overcome, despite having to work ten times as hard as others to achieve). Oddly, it's usually those who do manage to beat the odds and overcome their handicaps that are some of the harshest critics of those who fail to do the same, despite the fact that they are exceptional rather than the norm.

My hypothesis is that there are many who are incapable of caring about other people, and many more who choose not to care because it's too painful to do so. Ask the person you're arguing with which one they are.

[newportdadde]

17. Your hit a brick wall of no empathy.

Most of us are selfish but I'd say the majority have varying degrees of empathy. However I feel 25% to 35% of the country has issues with empathy and then 5%-10% have NO EMPATHY, none at all.

When arguing with a neocon you will get nowhere trying to explain empathy.

[Sugarcoated]

19. I've been having a similar discussion with some conservatives

well, some are downright freeps, really. But some intelligent discussion. This is the sort of response I get from one of the most smug ones, but this attitude is underlying alot of Republicans:

"I don't want presidents to do anything "for me" except defend the Constitution, defend the country, cut taxes and waste, and leave the rest to local governments, families and individuals who can vote with their feet. Federalism, yes!"


And this type of response:

"All I know is I own part of my own company & make much more than I made under Clinton! So for me Bush as been great! But did Bush really help me just the same as did Bill Clinton really not help me? I really don't get why people think the President makes or breaks there life? Maybe it's just me but I make or break me...."


And the most extreme and ridiculous:

"The make or break your life goes against the very core of the left....As they need a big Government to hold there hands as they think there unable to-do things for themselves...."

[Sugarcoated]

20. And I do want to add

My observation of most conservative people is they seem to have an inability to put themselves in anothers shoes. Incapable of understanding till it happens to them or their immediate family.

[JohnnyRingo]

21. I usually point out that not everyone has someone to take care of them.

That there are people who are either so disabled or so mentally unfit that they require govt assistance.

Some people would just have to go to work.

I point out that there are people out there that they dont want making their Big Macs. Or parking their cars. Or interacting with them in any way.

Even the most rabid right winger doesn't want a mentally retarded busboy clearing their table while he picks his nose.
Or a deranged short order cook who thinks it's amusing to mix their food with his genitalia.
They don't want a cancer survivor with a missing nose to take their order.
They cringe at the notion of someone ringing up their mechandise while using a larnyx vibrator.
They don't want someone to help them at the Home Depot with hooks for hands.

These Rush wannabees are all talk. They don't want handicapped people to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", they want them to go away.

If you ask them, using examples, they'll agree to donate some of their tax money to make that happen.